England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

[LondonTiger]

Hopefully Farrell is back for the Ireland game. However, given the injury is to his thumb its probably a good thing if he cant do the silly celebration he does after every successful kick.

Every time he does it, a sponsor pays money to charity.

[Collapse2005]

Hopefully Farrell is back for the Ireland game. However, given the injury is to his thumb its probably a good thing if he cant do the silly celebration he does after every successful kick.

Every time he does it, a sponsor pays money to charity.

Cringe. Im sure the sponsor could pay money anytime he kicks a goal too.

I heard it was a secret signal to a kid he met in a hospital with a terminal illness. Its a nice gesture but it cringe worthy none the less to advertise how charitable you are all the time.

[BamBam]

Yes, why does he do something to put a smile on the face of a kid with a terminal illness?

[Scottrf]

Especially when it makes someone watching cringe.

[Collapse2005]

Yes, why does he do something to put a smile on the face of a kid with a terminal illness?

To show everyone how great he is?

[Scottrf]

To raise awareness? Why do people have to make charitable acts a negative?

[No 7&1/2]

You see the 'celebration' a lot in league. Think o read it was a charity which started in Wigan. May have made that up though.

[BamBam]

The Johnson family have previously expressed their gratitude for Farrell’s support over the years.

The Johnson family said: “Everyone at Joining Jack is so grateful for Owen’s support, he is a fantastic ambassador for the charity and never forgets to help raise awareness whenever he can.”

Farrell’s efforts have helped inspire other sports stars such as England team-mate Ben Burgess and cycling legend Bradley Wiggins to also raise awareness.

I know many don't like Farrell but surely he can't be criticised for this

[BamBam]

You see the 'celebration' a lot in league. Think o read it was a charity which started in Wigan. May have made that up though.

Yeah, the poor kid's dad played for Wigan and has a lot of friends in league

[LondonTiger]

You see the 'celebration' a lot in league. Think o read it was a charity which started in Wigan. May have made that up though.

Farrell Sr used to play with the lad's dad at Wigan. It is a rare untreatable condition that is little known. Every time Farrell or any other player (seen Sam Burgess do it) irritate people by doing it, awareness is raised and discussions held. Which is all to the good.

[Collapse2005]

To raise awareness? Why do people have to make charitable acts a negative?

When they become more about how great the person carrying out the charity work is rather than the kid himself. I respect Farrell for visiting the kid all the same.

[Pie]

Polite request to all English fans please do not spy on the Welsh threads. Ta much.

[LondonTiger]

Polite request to all English fans please do not spy on the Welsh threads. Ta much.

Huh?

[robbo277]

Jonathan Joseph has been added to the Portugal training squad.

Unsure if he'll make the squad for the Ireland game, but he's in contention now. Those centre permutations just changed again, although I guess it does allow Slade to cover 10 with Ford and Farrell carrying injuries?

[Exiledinborders]

Jonathan Joseph has been added to the Portugal training squad.

Unsure if he'll make the squad for the Ireland game, but he's in contention now. Those centre permutations just changed again, although I guess it does allow Slade to cover 10 with Ford and Farrell carrying injuries?

Slade is not a quality ten. If both Ford and Farrell are injured Cipriani has to play. Personally I would play him rather than Ford but that is a different debate.

[robbo277]

Jonathan Joseph has been added to the Portugal training squad.

Unsure if he'll make the squad for the Ireland game, but he's in contention now. Those centre permutations just changed again, although I guess it does allow Slade to cover 10 with Ford and Farrell carrying injuries?

Slade is not a quality ten. If both Ford and Farrell are injured Cipriani has to play. Personally I would play him rather than Ford but that is a different debate.

Reading the full BBC article (and not a tweet saying Joseph had been added), I'm not sure there is a question mark over Ford. It wasn't brought up in the article as injuries to Launchbury, Shields and Farrell were.

I wouldn't have Slade in line to start, but it does mean Eddie can run him at 10 in the training camp if he's short of numbers. He has 4 centres without counting Slade now, so although he hasn't called up direct cover for Farrell, Owen may be free to spend a lot of time with the physio.

[robbo277]

Changing tack slightly, with all the talk of Jack Nowell as the 9th forward, have we overlooked the other Jack option in the back row?

How big is Clifford's return to the England squad? He looked good in 2016, especially that May test against Wales. He's a genuine line-out option in that back row, and versatile enough to cover 6, 7, or 8.

I was thinking we would see Wilson, Curry, Vunipola in the back row with Shields on the bench (and the option of pushing Wilson across the back row if necessary). But with Shields carrying an injury, could we see Clifford in there? The other options would be Nathan Hughes or Ben Earl. Earl seems unlikely and while Hughes could work on the bench with Lawes covering 6, it seems a bit of a waste as you can and would want to keep Billy on for the 80, or if he was injured both Wilson and Clifford can cover in at 8.

Even if Shields isn't injured, would Clifford be the way to go? Maybe we haven't seen the best of Shields yet, but Clifford has shown some promise in his early caps before injury ruled him out.

[LondonTiger]

Clifford has more potential than Shields from what we have seen so far. Not seen a huge amount of him this season, does he look like the pre-injury player?

[BamBam]

I'm a big fan of Clifford, in the U20s he had an argument to be the best player in a side featuring Itoje, that's stuck with me

So much potential if he can stay fit, would love to see him get a run of games and as above, he can genuinely play in the entire back row. A place on the bench would appear to be his best shot at the moment, but really wouldn't be surprised if he pushes on much further

[king_carlos]

Clifford has always seemed to appeal to Jones blueprint of building to the RWC as well. Covers three positions, excellent impact off the bench and offers something different to our other back row options - namely pace. All very useful attributes in a RWC squad.

Clifford getting injured opened the door for Simmonds to put his hand up in that role. Now Simmonds injury may have done the same in return.

It would be nice if injuries didn't play such a dominant role in selection discussions for all teams.

[yappysnap]

To raise awareness? Why do people have to make charitable acts a negative?

When they become more about how great the person carrying out the charity work is rather than the kid himself. I respect Farrell for visiting the kid all the same.

You are a bit tragic at times Guns

[king_carlos]

With an eye on the line-out against Ireland I could see Jones pairing up Kruis and Itoje with George to throw at them. Toner, Ryan and POM together is the toughest inspection your line-out will get these days.

Another option would be Kruis and Lawes together. That offers the squads best two jumpers as targets.

[robbo277]

With an eye on the line-out against Ireland I could see Jones pairing up Kruis and Itoje with George to throw at them. Toner, Ryan and POM together is the toughest inspection your line-out will get these days.

Another option would be Kruis and Lawes together. That offers the squads best two jumpers as targets.

Is Kruis a better jumper than Itoje? I get that he runs a better lineout, but I feel Itoje makes more steals, which suggests to me he's more dynamic as a jumper. Itoje and Lawes should have enough about them in the lineout, but I'd agree we should probably leave Launchbury on the bench.

Do we need a back row jumping option? Wilson goes up, but Clifford would come back into the equation here if we feel we need more.

Obviously the other option would be an Eddie favourite with Itoje and Kruis with Lawes at 6. Wilson at 7 and Vunipola at 8? Paired with Nowell on the wing, we could have 3 second row and 3 back row.

[king_carlos]

Does Itoje make more steals? I thought that steals for Itoje dried up after the 2016 6 Nations when teams became more aware of him as a threat. The same there has happened for Kruis as well I believe with Saracens more often opting not to compete in the air and target maul defence over the last two seasons. Maul defence being an area Kruis is known to be strong.

Finding reliable stats in rugby is difficult but I thought the 2016 6 Nations was where England had statistically their strongest lineout under Jones - when Kruis led the lineouts won with 33.

Other than notable exceptions like Croft (and POM for that matter) third jumpers are predominantly used at the tail of the lineout. Given that Borthwick favours the simple Springbok lineout model where the majority of the ball is thrown to the middle of the lineout I actually don't think a back row option is particularly important for this side.

[robbo277]

Does Itoje make more steals? I thought that steals for Itoje dried up after the 2016 6 Nations when teams became more aware of him as a threat. The same there has happened for Kruis as well I believe with Saracens more often opting not to compete in the air and target maul defence over the last two seasons. Maul defence being an area Kruis is known to be strong.

Finding reliable stats in rugby is difficult but I thought the 2016 6 Nations was where England had statistically their strongest lineout under Jones - when Kruis led the lineouts won with 33.

Other than notable exceptions like Croft (and POM for that matter) third jumpers are predominantly used at the tail of the lineout. Given that Borthwick favours the simple Springbok lineout model where the majority of the ball is thrown to the middle of the lineout I actually don't think a back row option is particularly important for this side.

I only have Six Nations stats, but here they are.

Kruis took 27 lineouts and made 6 steals in 2016, playing every minute. Itoje took 10 lineouts and made 4 steals in fewer minutes. England got 11 steals over all, 7 more than anyone else (Scotland got 4).
Itoje got all 3 of England's steals in 2017 and 16 takes. Kruis didn't feature. No-one else stole 3 lineouts in the whole tournament (Toner, Wilson and Jones got 2 a piece).
Itoje got 1 steal and 21 takes in 2018. Kruis with fewer minutes got 0 steals and 7 takes. England were up to 4 steals here, with Lawes getting 2 and Robshaw getting up with 1.

2016 was an odd (but good) year for England, disrupting much more lineouts than anyone that year or in subsequent years (6 steals is the most any team has managed in the last 3 years, other than England's 11) and Itoje and Kruis in tandem were at the heart of it, making a similar amount of steals per minute played. Since then, England have struggled to turn over any more ball than anyone else, but Itoje has been as good as anyone else in the tournament.

Maybe he is no better than Kruis then in this respect, these stats are not really conclusive as Kruis hasn't been heavily involved in the Six Nations since his opening season.

Itoje and Lawes I still think has enough jumping ability to secure our own ball. Maybe the unit of Itoje and Kruis is a better option, especially if they can back up a successful lineout on own throw with a few steals, but I think we lose a bit round the park having Kruis over Lawes.

Second row is a really tough call for Jones. So many good options, but he has four quite different players, and the balancing act of picking the best individuals/combo/styles is tough.

[Geordie]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

[LondonTiger]

I thought it might have been a pleasant distraction from the travails of Kingston Park

[robbo277]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Because it's the Six Nations in a World Cup year? Or something else?

In other news, Farrell is confident he'll be fit to face Ireland. Should be training this week.

[rodders]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Not bad at all Gordie, it's hard to get excited about a mid table finish.

[Geordie]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Not bad at all Gordie, it's hard to get excited about a mid table finish.

Normally that would fire me up...but ive got no interest...

[Geordie]

I thought it might have been a pleasant distraction from the travails of Kingston Park

Yeah I thought it might have been...but nah just cant get going for this 6n. Not sure why at all...

[king_carlos]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Apparently Tom Wood is due a recall at number 8 GF...?

[Geordie]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Apparently Tom Wood is due a recall at number 8 GF...?

Really...holy moly...

At least Big Phil Vickery is still there at number 3.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

Apparently Borthwick thinks we are underpowered in the scrum and weak in the lineout, he has suggested that he may come out of retirement to fix the situation

[LondonTiger]

Apparently Borthwick thinks we are underpowered in the scrum and weak in the lineout, he has suggested that he may come out of retirement to fix the situation

Aye, but will be replaced at half time by Martin Corry

[BamBam]

That cut on the nose will be really serious, its completely justified

[WELL-PAST-IT]

That cut on the nose will be really serious, its completely justified

What is, the cut on the nose?

It does make him look like he is perpetually getting hammered and not in the pub.

[BamBam]

That cut on the nose will be really serious, its completely justified

What is, the cut on the nose?

It does make him look like he is perpetually getting hammered and not in the pub.

Being replaced at half time lol

[Gooseberry]

With May and Nowell at flanker our scrum will be fine.

[munkian]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Not bad at all Gordie, it's hard to get excited about a mid table finish.

Normally that would fire me up...but ive got no interest...

It's an improvement on last year, can't ask for much more than that.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

With May and Nowell at flanker our scrum will be fine.

Often thought that Manu would be a good No. 8

[LondonTiger]

With May and Nowell at flanker our scrum will be fine.

Often thought that Manu would be a good No. 8

His nephew(s) are not. Guess Henry was ok.

[compelling and rich]

is anyone setting up a fantasy team again? espn website is now working, ive just set one up for my rugby club

[Mr Bounce]

is anyone setting up a fantasy team again? espn website is now working, ive just set one up for my rugby club

I've just logged in and done a couple of teams. Always a good laugh

[Irish Londoner]

Hopefully Farrell is back for the Ireland game. However, given the injury is to his thumb its probably a good thing if he cant do the silly celebration he does after every successful kick.

Every time he does it, a sponsor pays money to charity.

Cringe. Im sure the sponsor could pay money anytime he kicks a goal too.

I heard it was a secret signal to a kid he met in a hospital with a terminal illness. Its a nice gesture but it cringe worthy none the less to advertise how charitable you are all the time.

Maybe you should cringe:
OUR son Jack is everything an eight-year-old should be. He is cheeky, excitable and a big softy at heart. He loves to make dens, play hide and seek and wave his lightsaber like a Jedi Knight. He is enjoying his early steps on his journey into the big wide world. But what our beautiful son does not yet know is that he has a terminal, incurable disease.

In October 2011 we received the shattering news that Jack has Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy (DMD). Failing a medical breakthrough, Jack's life will follow a predetermined path, mapped out by this progressive muscle wasting condition. In short, he will no longer be able to walk by the time he reaches adolescence and will lose the use of every single muscle in his body thereafter. He may need spinal rods to keep him upright and ventilation to help him breath. Eventually his heart and lungs will fail and he will die.

There are no words to describe the utter devastation felt upon hearing that your child's life will be cut short because there is no cure. We have had the greatest pleasure watching Jack develop into the amazing boy he is today but now, unbelievably, we must prepare ourselves for his steady decline. And the worst part? Seeing him struggle as his body wastes away and being absolutely powerless to help.

[yappysnap]

That is terrible to read and my heart goes out to you IL. As a new father I can only imagine terrible feelings on getting that news for your son. I really hope some cure is found for him.

There is so much more to life then rugby and these players are ao much more then juat sportsmen. What Farrel ia doing is brilliant, just like anyone else who helpa charities and those in need.

[Irish Londoner]

That is terrible to read and my heart goes out to you IL. As a new father I can only imagine terrible feelings on getting that news for your son. I really hope some cure is found for him.

There is so much more to life then rugby and these players are ao much more then juat sportsmen. What Farrel ia doing is brilliant, just like anyone else who helpa charities and those in need.

Thanks, for clarity I should point out that Jack is not my lad, I have done a few very minor things for the Joining Jack charity, Farrell does the "JJ" gesture as a way of raising awareness, a lot of the RL players up here in the north do it, my understanding is that the family ask them to do it as if even one person googles "what's that thing that Owen Farrell does after he scores?" then it's one more person made aware.

[Rugby Fan]

Thanks, for clarity I should point out that Jack is not my lad.

Mate, I'm immensely relieved to hear you aren't in that position.

Quite frankly, I'd imagine the normal reponse to hearing awful news about any young child with terminal illness is to feel utterly helpless. When the family tells you you can do something concrete to help, then you seize on it gladly. I'm not surprised the community has pitched in like that.

[robbo277]

Robshaw back for Quins tomorrow.

If Shields gets ruled out we may see Robshaw added to the squad next week, but I'd guess we're more likely to see them from Week 2.

[robbo277]

Friday Quiz

Question 1: How many new caps has Eddie Jones given out in his 35 tests to date as England coach?

Question 2: What's the average number of England caps for a player who was given his first cap by Eddie Jones?

Question 3: How many players who were given their first cap by Eddie Jones are in the training squad for the Ireland game?

Answers at 5pm.

[Sponsored content]