England 2019 Six Nations Discussion Thread

[LondonTiger]

First topic message reminder :

Fixtures


Ireland (a)
Saturday 2nd Feb, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 1: Romain Poite (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


France (h)
Sunday 10th Feb, 15:00 - ITV

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Assistant 1: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
Assistant 2: Brendon Pickerill (New Zealand)
TMO: Glenn Newman (New Zealand)


Wales (a)
Saturday 23rd Feb, 16:45 - BBC


Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Alexandre Ruiz (France)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Italy (h)
Saturday 9th March, 16:45 - ITV

Referee: Nic Berry (Australia)
Assistant 1: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 2: Andrew Brace (Ireland)
TMO: Simon McDowell (Ireland)


Scotland (h)
Saturday 16th March, 17:00 - ITV

Referee: Paul Williams (New Zealand)
Assistant 1: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant 2: Federico Anselmi (Argentina)
TMO: Ben Skeen (New Zealand)






Squad


For First & Second Tests:

Forwards
Jack Clifford (Harlequins), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Ben Earl (Saracens) *, Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje  Nick Isiekwe (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Ben Moon (Exeter Chiefs), Brad Shields (Wasps), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins), Jack Singleton (Worcester Warriors) *, Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs), Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons)
Backs
Chris Ashton (Sale Sharks), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Ollie Devoto (Exeter Chiefs), Owen Farrell (Saracens) captain, George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs), Dan Robson (Wasps) *, Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors), Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby) *, Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

*Uncapped

Players unavailable due to injury:  Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

[LondonTiger]

Friday Quiz

Question 1: How many new caps has Eddie Jones given out in his 35 tests to date as England coach?

Question 2: What's the average number of England caps for a player who was given his first cap by Eddie Jones?

Question 3: How many players who were given their first cap by Eddie Jones are in the training squad for the Ireland game?

Answers at 5pm.

1) 31
2) Probably .<10
3) Less than half

[No 7&1/2]

I'd be literally guessing at all those! I do generally like how Jones has gone about introducing players though. There's those I feel he's ignored those I wouldn't have personally gone with but on introducing them or judging them I don't think he's done that much wrong.

[robbo277]

Friday Quiz

Question 1: How many new caps has Eddie Jones given out in his 35 tests to date as England coach?

Question 2: What's the average number of England caps for a player who was given his first cap by Eddie Jones?

Question 3: How many players who were given their first cap by Eddie Jones are in the training squad for the Ireland game?

Answers at 5pm.

1) 31
2) Probably .<10
3) Less than half

31 is correct.
Average of 6.8. Only 7 of them have reached double figures.
14 have made the training squad. I think 2 more would have or would have at least had a good chance.

Analysing the 31 players:

7 players I'd say have made it under Jones. They'll be going to the World Cup: Itoje, Daly, Hughes, Te'o, Sinckler, Williams, Underhill (currently injured)
9 players are still actively being looked at now. A good 6 Nations could see them cement themselves in place: Clifford, Devoto, Genge, Wilson, Curry, Simmonds (currently injured), Shields, Moon, Cokanasiga
4 players I'd say are still prospects, just not quite there yet: Isiekwe, Spencer, Mercer, Ted Hill
6 players had a decent crack and didn't work out. Now dropped off the radar: Paul Hill, Harrison, Ewels, Lozowski, Solomona, Francis
5 players were never really more than injury cover: Taylor, Armand, Maunder, Collier, Hepburn

[robbo277]

I'd be literally guessing at all those! I do generally  like how Jones has gone about introducing players though. There's those I feel he's ignored those I wouldn't have personally gone with but on introducing them or judging them I don't think he's done that much wrong.

Looking at the above post, he's got more hits than misses. Some like Itoje and Daly were gimmes, but he capped them where Lancaster didn't. Could 2015 have gone differently if Lancaster had rolled the dice on one of those?

Lancaster gets a lot of credit for giving Jones a squad that he could use straight away, but Jones has evolved the squad nicely over the last 3 years. He's been trying to develop leadership across the board, he's now bringing through more back row and centre options which are areas of weakness. A likely team against Ireland (Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, May, Te'o, Joseph, Ashton, Daly) could see 6 players Eddie has brought through, 7 Lancaster regulars and 2 Lancaster fringe players. He's phased out Hartley, Cole, Robshaw, Haskell and Brown in time for the World Cup. Some of them are still round the squad (because it would be silly to just throw their experience away), but it's looking more and more like his team.

[RDW]

Congratulations to LondonTiger who has just been appointed a new rugby mod.

Be nice to him!

[Collapse2005]

Fair play. Surprised I havent got the call up yet.

[No 7&1/2]

Ah nice LT.best of luck.

[LondonTiger]

I will have to be on good behaviour before and after the game in Cardiff, else I could be banned before my probation period is up 

[No 7&1/2]

Lol.

[yappysnap]

Congrats LT.

Ill send over theist of people to ban...

EJ does seem to have done well over all. One of the biggest challenges as an England coach must be trying to sort your good players from the hundreds of prospects playing every week. And then reducing that list to 32, and working out with the clubs a training/nutrition/recovery/rest/skills programme for that player.

It must take a hell of a lot of work to find and manage those players, and to get them to a point that they are peaking for an Int series like the 6Ns when they'll be focussed day to day on something totally different for their clubs.

If EJ stays after RWC '19 I think we'll see an even better squad then before.

[BamBam]

Fair play. Surprised I havent got the call up yet.

I did suggest that you, Cyril and LD would have been great mods but I didn't get a response

[stub]

Yes, congratulations LT! A really good choice to be a moderator in my opinion.

[Yoda]

Is being a moderator like a tmo only you get things right?

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I'd be literally guessing at all those! I do generally  like how Jones has gone about introducing players though. There's those I feel he's ignored those I wouldn't have personally gone with but on introducing them or judging them I don't think he's done that much wrong.

Looking at the above post, he's got more hits than misses. Some like Itoje and Daly were gimmes, but he capped them where Lancaster didn't. Could 2015 have gone differently if Lancaster had rolled the dice on one of those?

Lancaster gets a lot of credit for giving Jones a squad that he could use straight away, but Jones has evolved the squad nicely over the last 3 years. He's been trying to develop leadership across the board, he's now bringing through more back row and centre options which are areas of weakness. A likely team against Ireland (Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Wilson, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, May, Te'o, Joseph, Ashton, Daly) could see 6 players Eddie has brought through, 7 Lancaster regulars and 2 Lancaster fringe players. He's phased out Hartley, Cole, Robshaw, Haskell and Brown in time for the World Cup. Some of them are still round the squad (because it would be silly to just throw their experience away), but it's looking more and more like his team.

I am not of the opinion that Hartley has been phased out, I would have fully expected him to start next Saturday if he had been fit. EJ has said he will join the squad when he returns to fitness. Cole and Brown are likely to be in the 23 as well.

[LondonTiger]

Brown may well start but I would be very surprised to see Cole feature in the first week.

[WELL-PAST-IT]

I thought Cole had been looking quite good, especially at the breakdown. He is probably still the best scrummaging TH we have. He,y what do I know, I was usually two rows back trying to keep the locks from going in different directions.

[yappysnap]

I think itll depend on if Cole can show the ability to do more then just scrum. We need a lot more from our props now and one who is only useful for perhaps 20-30 mins of a game is a luxory.

[robbo277]

No reason not to continue with Sinckler and Williams in my opinion.

Cole and Brown aren't going to be thrown away completely, they could be called back in to shore things up if needed. But both are being phased out. Brown hasn't started any of the last 8 (?) tests at 15, while Cole didn't make either of the last two series squads. Even if they play against Ireland, I don't think either is Plan A for the World Cup, although you couldn't rule either out.

Hartley I think is also being phased out to an extent, but isn't as far through the process. I'd be surprised if he was fit if he was omitted from the 23, but for the first time he's not a lock for the 2 shirt and we may have seen George starting anyway.

[LondonTiger]

I thought Cole had been looking quite good, especially at the breakdown. He is probably still the best scrummaging TH we have. He,y what do I know, I was usually two rows back trying to keep the locks from going in different directions.

Everything you say is correct. I would also point out he is carrying the ball and his tackle count is up (with the try saving tackle on Jason Woodward still leaving me stunned). However I do not see him as a bench option, nor do I see Jones dropping Sinckler from the starting berth even though I feel he struggled in the right during the AIs (pundits probably do not agree as he is being lauded in all the papers). In winter conditions I would start Cole but I am biased.

If Jones is serious that next weekend is all about beating Ireland then I do feel we may see Brown start as Daly has been shocking under the high ball.

[lostinwales]

Hartley's problems are down to injuries. I can't help thinking he's one concussion away from retiring at best, and the knee has been a major handicap this season

[No 7&1/2]

When asked who they would take from another 6 nations team the coaches demonstrated why tenure so good with pr. Deflection par excellence. I wouldn't have let them finish before shouting Stuart Hogg.

[Geordie]

So what is the likely England team for Saturday?

[LondonTiger]

So what is the likely England team for Saturday?

My guess:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Slade, Daly, Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Kruis, Wilson, Robson, Ford, Manu


The names in bold are ones I have a high level of confidence that Eddie will name. There are 3 good options to partner Itoje, while Brown is just a gut feel on what the aussie imp will do.

[Poorfour]

Talk of phasing players out is somewhat premature. It's not that long ago that Eddie declared Hartley his RWC captain, and in his interview on Rugby Tonight last week he mentioned there only being 5 or 6 of his preferred players being out injured.

In the squad announcement, mysteriously enough, the following six players were mentioned as being unavailable due to injury (and Joseph has subsequently been called up):

Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

Francis is something of a squad player, but Eddie has consistently picked all of the others when they have been available. In terms of whether they might get back in:
- Watson's been out for so long I can't remember whether he alternated much with the other back three players in selection (but would probably be firm favourite to be the RWC fullback if fit).
- Joseph has a fit Tuilagi to contend with for the first time in forever, but they have such contrasting styles that I can easily see them as 13/23 in the squad.
- Hartley has consistently been Jones's pick, and it's hard to see him not getting a start if he's fully fit and not banned.

The two players with the biggest contention for their shirts are the back rowers:
- Underhill has long been Eddie's preferred 7 - but hasn't stayed fit long enough to make the shirt his own. He looked ready to do that in the autumn
- Robshaw probably has the most contention for the shirt - Shields, Wilson, Curry, Clifford and Underhill all play in his positions, and plenty of fans and pundits have already written him off. On the other hand, fans and pundits have been writing him off since before Stuart Lancaster's first game in charge, and that was eight years ago. In that time, he's been rested for one tour by Lancaster and dropped for one game by Eddie, only to be restored for the next one. Coaches see something in his game that people without the benefit of play-by-play video analysis don't.

[Geordie]

So what is the likely England team for Saturday?

My guess:

Mako, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Lawes, Shields, Curry, Billy, Youngs, Farrell, Te'o, Slade, Daly, Brown

LCD, Genge, Williams, Kruis, Wilson, Robson, Ford, Manu


The names in bold are ones I have a high level of confidence that Eddie will name. There are 3 good options to partner Itoje, while Brown is just a gut feel on what the aussie imp will do.

Your missing a wing LT...May?

Im a big fan of Curry, but after joining the Underhill fan club late, I can now see what his sheer physical power and strength brings to that back row. Maybe we will see 6. Underhill and 7 Curry in the odd games....

[Geordie]

Talk of phasing players out is somewhat premature. It's not that long ago that Eddie declared Hartley his RWC captain, and in his interview on Rugby Tonight last week he mentioned there only being 5 or 6 of his preferred players being out injured.

In the squad announcement, mysteriously enough, the following six players were mentioned as being unavailable due to injury (and Joseph has subsequently been called up):

Piers Francis (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby).

Francis is something of a squad player, but Eddie has consistently picked all of the others when they have been available.  In terms of whether they might get back in:
- Watson's been out for so long I can't remember whether he alternated much with the other back three players in selection (but would probably be firm favourite to be the RWC fullback if fit).
- Joseph has a fit Tuilagi to contend with for the first time in forever, but they have such contrasting styles that I can easily see them as 13/23 in the squad.
- Hartley has consistently been Jones's pick, and it's hard to see him not getting a start if he's fully fit and not banned.

The two players with the biggest contention for their shirts are the back rowers:
- Underhill has long been Eddie's preferred 7 - but hasn't stayed fit long enough to make the shirt his own. He looked ready to do that in the autumn
- Robshaw probably has the most contention for the shirt - Shields, Wilson, Curry, Clifford and Underhill all play in his positions, and plenty of fans and pundits have already written him off. On the other hand, fans and pundits have been writing him off since before Stuart Lancaster's first game in charge, and that was eight years ago. In that time, he's been rested for one tour by Lancaster and dropped for one game by Eddie, only to be restored for the next one. Coaches see something in his game that people without the benefit of play-by-play video analysis don't.

Does Eddie actually have them both Fit at the same time? Is that the first time they have both been available for selection?

As to Robshaw, yes it would seem that he does the unseen stuff, that is all picked up in the play by play analysis. Even Eddie Jones had seemingly written him off before he even became England Head Coach, and almost overnight he became the first name on the team sheet.

I still think the likes of Curry and Clifford have to prove themselves a little more at club level, Curry to impose himself more, and Clifford to stay injury free. I think Robshaws biggest challenge could be from Mark Wilson as their game is very similar.

[LondonTiger]

Ah yeah missed May was meant to be bold but just as I did it for the Youngs to Daly section I managed to paste instead so had to re-write.

After the RWC I feel we could, if they keep fit, see an Underhill/Curry combo on the scrum flanks.

[Geordie]

Ah yeah missed May was meant to be bold but just as I did it for the Youngs to Daly section I managed to paste instead so had to re-write.

After the RWC I feel we could, if they keep fit, see an Underhill/Curry combo on the scrum flanks.

I guess it will be horses for courses...depending whether a lineout option is wanted there.

And potentially, there will also be the rather large frames of Ted Hill and Dombrandt pushing for that 6 spot as well.

[LondonTiger]

Dombrandt I believe will prove to be flavour of the month. Hill could be a contender

[Poorfour]

Dombrandt I believe will prove to be flavour of the month. Hill could be a contender

That's a harsh judgement on someone half a season into his pro career, LT. Dombrandt has got two challenges, one that all new players face, and one unique to him.

He has got to show that he can adapt his style to be effective when he is more of a known quantity and teams can video analyse him - but every player faces that, Ted Hill included, and it's only the Billy Vunipolas and Jonah Lomus of this world who have the luxury of doing something that's easy to predict and hard to stop. Anyone can fall foul of that.

The second challenge is that Dombrandt didn't grow up in the academy system and still has the physique of a university player it will be interesting to see what he's like given a further preseason to change his fitness and shape. There's a risk he overdoes it and loses something, but at the same time if his trainers focus on losing body fat and improving cardio over building bulk (which he has in spades), then he could be very interesting given how good his speed and engine are for a kid of his size.
He probably won't be ready until 20/21, but there's plenty of time to wait. His handling and reading of the game are also very good. He has the potential to be a much faster Nick Easter, and that's exciting to Quins fans, anyway.

Hill is also an impressive young player, but I don't see a good reason to think he's more likely to get through second season syndrome than Dombrandt. The injury record among back rows is such that it's likely both will get a chance at some point

[LondonTiger]

Aye, it was harsh - just about feel.

Agree that the injury rates for our younger back rowers makes it hard to predict success.

[johnpartle]

Jack Willis is another. Selected for the SA tour until sidelined by long injury. Supposedly due back in Feb/March.

[Yoda]

Willis will be an England regular I'm sure of it, absolute beast of a player. As a wasps fan I really hope he gets back to his preinjury form. His younger brother is some player too, fingers crossed they stay injury free.

[robbo277]

Te'o has been ruled out of the Ireland game. There were already midfield question marks, but with Farrell / Te'o / Slade as the midfield in possession of shirts, how does Eddie look to play it?

• Would he bring Devoto straight in, as close to like for like as he can get? It would also bring together a club combination.
  
• Would he bring Ford in and shift Farrell across? It would give a familiar feel to 10/12 and Slade has played outside that partnership before.
  
• Would he play two of his 13s (Slade, Joseph and Tuilagi) in the same midfield? This only really becomes an option if he just wants to get his best players out onto the pitch.
  
• Would he do something mad with either Daly, Nowell or Mako Vunipola stepping into the centres? We can't rule out anything with Eddie!
  

I would definitely go with one of the first two. I guess a lot of it will depend how Devoto has looked in training. I think a Ford/Farrell 10/12 could work with any of the 13s, so that would be plan B if he got cold feet over Devoto.

EDIT: Never mind, just seen the other thread. No Devoto.

[lostinwales]

Centers from Slade, Farrell and Manu. So it looks like Ford 10 Farrell 12 Slade 13 with Manu on the bench, or Farrell 10 and Slade/Manu at 12 and 13.

[lostinwales]

Next question is which lock, and which of Brown and Ashton miss out.

[mikey_dragon]

Are the Vunipola brothers injured? Who are England’s best locks? Will help me decide who to pick up front in my fantasy team...

[robbo277]

Are the Vunipola brothers injured? Who are England’s best locks? Will help me decide who to pick up front in my fantasy team...

First question - no.

Second question - they're all at a high level, probably all in that bracket just below World Class. You're probably best off waiting to see who gets picked for the first game and picking from the starting 2. I'd possibly go with Itoje or Launchbury, as I think they're more likely to get a MOTM award over Lawes or Kruis. Just based on broadcasters' favourites.

[Poorfour]

Are the Vunipola brothers injured? Who are England’s best locks? Will help me decide who to pick up front in my fantasy team...

First question - no.

Second question - they're all at a high level, probably all in that bracket just below World Class. You're probably best off waiting to see who gets picked for the first game and picking from the starting 2. I'd possibly go with Itoje or Launchbury, as I think they're more likely to get a MOTM award over Lawes or Kruis. Just based on broadcasters' favourites.

That's a pretty silly criterion, though, given how random MOTM awards can be. Ben Kay once described how it was a process of thinking about who had done something impressive and then frantically checking the stats to make sure they backed it up...

I think you pick based on the game you want to play. Assuming full form and fitness, I lean towards Itoje and Kruis, because with George starting it gives us the best chance of countering the Irish lineout.

[Geordie]

Poorfour,

I think during our winning run, Kruis and Itoje were an integral part of it. Kruis's injury and Itojes drop in form did affect the England team considerably. They seemed to work together in tandem.

I do rate Lawes incredibly highly though. And Launchbury always seems to play consistently top class.
We're lucky in the lock department.

I think a Wilson / Curry flank partnership might help the locks as well. We should be rock solid at cleaning out on our ball and pressuring on their ball.

[LondonTiger]

Are the Vunipola brothers injured? Who are England’s best locks? Will help me decide who to pick up front in my fantasy team...

First question - no.

Second question - they're all at a high level, probably all in that bracket just below World Class. You're probably best off waiting to see who gets picked for the first game and picking from the starting 2. I'd possibly go with Itoje or Launchbury, as I think they're more likely to get a MOTM award over Lawes or Kruis. Just based on broadcasters' favourites.

That's a pretty silly criterion, though, given how random MOTM awards can be. Ben Kay once described how it was a process of thinking about who had done something impressive and then frantically checking the stats to make sure they backed it up...

I think you pick based on the game you want to play. Assuming full form and fitness, I lean towards Itoje and Kruis, because with George starting it gives us the best chance of countering the Irish lineout.

But when thinking about your fantasy team rather than the real team, considering who might get MotM is sensible. Of course knowing how the MotM is awarded in different countries helps too. Itoje is the most likely of our locks to play every game, so not a terrible choice for a fantasy team.

[Poorfour]

True. I missed the bit about fantasy team.

[robbo277]

True. I missed the bit about fantasy team.

I do agree it's an awful way to select an actual team!

[LondonTiger]

Reading an article about Sinckler and Furlong there was this link:

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/england-/s245/st142754/england-u16s-four-nations-tournament--fixtures-april-2009

Some interesting names.

[bluestonevedder]

Reading an article about Sinckler and Furlong there was this link:

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/england-/s245/st142754/england-u16s-four-nations-tournament--fixtures-april-2009

Some interesting names.

I love reading old articles like this and seeing how many of the youth players made it pro. So many names on there who I just don't recognise at all. I count 7 that I actually recognise

[LondonTiger]

Reading an article about Sinckler and Furlong there was this link:

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/england-/s245/st142754/england-u16s-four-nations-tournament--fixtures-april-2009

Some interesting names.

I love reading old articles like this and seeing how many of the youth players made it pro. So many names on there who I just don't recognise at all. I count 7 that I actually recognise

Daly, Sinckler & LCD all capped.

Tommy Bell (LI), Sam Hill (Exeter), Dom Barrow (Saints), Charlie Walker (Quins), Mark Jennings (Sale) all playing pro rugby.

Matt Hankin I recognised, but did have to look him up. He was at sarries but retired due to concussion two years ago.

[bluestonevedder]

Reading an article about Sinckler and Furlong there was this link:

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/england-/s245/st142754/england-u16s-four-nations-tournament--fixtures-april-2009

Some interesting names.

I love reading old articles like this and seeing how many of the youth players made it pro. So many names on there who I just don't recognise at all. I count 7 that I actually recognise

Daly, Sinckler & LCD all capped.

Tommy Bell (LI), Sam Hill (Exeter), Dom Barrow (Saints), Charlie Walker (Quins), Mark Jennings (Sale) all playing pro rugby.

Matt Hankin I recognised, but did have to look him up. He was at sarries but retired due to concussion two years ago.

Ah, I totally overlooked Mark Jennings. Interesting to see Hill lining up on the wing, especially if he used to play the way he does now.

Hankin was a great player at U20s from what I remember. I did hear on the grape vine as well that he was considering legal action regarding his treatment by Sarries following his concussions. This was a while ago though and nothing seems to have come from it.

[Geordie]

Willis will be an England regular I'm sure of it, absolute beast of a player. As a wasps fan I really hope he gets back to his preinjury form. His younger brother is some player too, fingers crossed they stay injury free.

Is he back playing?

[BigTrevsbigmac]

Willis will be an England regular I'm sure of it, absolute beast of a player. As a wasps fan I really hope he gets back to his preinjury form. His younger brother is some player too, fingers crossed they stay injury free.

Is he back playing?

No not yet. He’s back running, latest is, probably beginning March time.

[Cumbrian]

I just cant get enthusiastic over this 6n at all...how bad is that..

Not bad at all Gordie, it's hard to get excited about a mid table finish.

Put you back in your box didn’t it? Don’t believe the hype.

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