Ulster Rugby 2018-19

by **LondonTiger** Mon 04 Mar 2019, 9:49 am

First topic message reminder :

https://www.606v2.com/t68145-ulster-rugby-2017-2018-part-2

Last thread was at risk of self combusting, so started a new one for you.

Bye.

by Pete330v2 Fri 29 Jan 2021, 3:55 pm

These contracts are being fired out at some rate.

by neilthom7 Fri 29 Jan 2021, 4:14 pm

Mike Lowry on to 2023 now too, Ulster are deciding to get these all done in one week, admin staff must be on holidays next week haha

by Pete330v2 Fri 29 Jan 2021, 4:21 pm

neilthom7 wrote:Mike Lowry on to 2023 now too, Ulster are deciding to get these all done in one week, admin staff must be on holidays next week haha

They'd be in need of a holiday at this rate.

Great to see Cheslin Lowry signed up and ready to go. Fantastic player!

by Don Alfonso Fri 29 Jan 2021, 5:53 pm

Tom Stewart, Big Boy's Contract, two years

by neilthom7 Fri 29 Jan 2021, 7:24 pm

Theres been so many over the last few days, who's left now that we should be watching out for?

by **profitius** Fri 29 Jan 2021, 9:02 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Firstly of course everything here are opinions they are no absolutes but I'll throw out a few, what I believe to be well founded opinion, with some actual facts throw in.
I think we have a warped situation brought about, in large part, because Schmidt came from Leinster and his first instinct, throughout his tenure was to revert to Leinster first and
Munster second when there were any marginal calls. This is continuing with Farrell and is actually worse because Farrell doe not have Schmidts coaching skills

The two selected LH for Ireland are getting on - neither will see 32.
EOS has already gone past Dooley and Bryne in terms of playing levels
Neither of the two other senior loose heads at Munster will see 30 again
None of the senior Loose heads at Connacht will see 29 again.
Given the level of performance of EOS and the age of the alternatives it is criminal EOS is not in the squad

theslosty wrote:Jean Kleyn and Ryan Baird offer more than O'Connor or Treadwell.
This is an good example of where I fundamentally disagree.
Baird looks a decent player but to be honest in the recent 'A' fixture he was totally out played by Izuchukwu.
Need to see more of Baird but I think he is being hyped because lock is the one place, Ryan apart, that Leinster are struggling to produce top players.
Toner is old and Moloney isn't good enough.
As for Kleyn, I actually prefer O'Connor.
For me Kleyn is the most overrated lock in Irish rugby and O'Connor the most underrated one.

I also suggest there are some red faces in Dublin that they let EOS and AOC go - they would be useful addition to the Leinster squad and
marked improvements on Bryne/Dooley and Moloney respectively.

I would also draw attention to two players who look likely to be discarded by Leinster and Munster.
Adam Bryne - played for Ireland. If he had been at Ulster he would have not got near the Ireland squad.
Hell at the time he wasn't even good enough to make the Ulster first XV.

Tommy O'Donnell got double figures in caps - it is my contention he would have got nowhere near that if an Ulster player

I'll throw out two more curve balls - Andrew is out performing both Heffernan and Kelleher at the moment
(Kelleher may be a prospect but until he improves his throwing he is going nowhere)
If Daly why not Lowry?
Don't get me wrong Daly is a fine prospect but so is Lowry.
We were told when Lowry was put at 15 - he'll be exposed he is not big enough (same height as Colby and Williams) Not doing to bad is he.
Lowry is a hell of a lot more ready for the international stage than Casey.

The last point and the crux of the matter is why if Munster and Ulster are, roughly, the same standard do Munster get so many more players in the squad?
If the Munster squad have more to offer is it because Munster are underperforming with the players they have, or are Ulster over performing with the players they have.
Or is it something else? - I think it is something else

There's not much difference. Coetzee and Stander are both South Africans but Stander happens to be Irish qualified. If you swapped those around the gap would be 2 less. Stockdale, Addison, Balacoune are out injured. Carbery for Munster. Cooney should be there and maybe Casey is lucky although a big talent as we will hopefully see.

Think by my count there are 6 players who came through the munster system and 4 who came through the ulster system. 10 between them which is bad going. I think that will change in the next few years judging by the strength of the Ireland U20s. Tom Stewart being one.

Tommy O'Donnell has 13 caps. Since Wallace retired SOB and Leavy have been the 2 best opensides but they've both been very injury prone. TOD is a good athlete but has been hit by injuries in the last few years. Jordi Murphy came on the ireland scene a year after TOD and has 30 caps.

Shane Daly is 6'3 to Lowry's 5,7? Daly comfortable on the wing, fullback and played center too. He's actually been munsters most consistent back this season but being away in ireland camp ment he hardly got to play.

Don't think anyone is overrating Kleyn apart from Johan van Graan. Baird is a superb athlete. I didn't see the A game but he came on against Saracens and made a big impact.

I don't think it's the most exciting Ireland squad ever. There's no clear pattern in terms of what type of players Farrell is selecting apart from picking athletes.

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 29 Jan 2021, 9:19 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Firstly of course everything here are opinions they are no absolutes but I'll throw out a few, what I believe to be well founded opinion, with some actual facts throw in.
I think we have a warped situation brought about, in large part, because Schmidt came from Leinster and his first instinct, throughout his tenure was to revert to Leinster first and
Munster second when there were any marginal calls. This is continuing with Farrell and is actually worse because Farrell doe not have Schmidts coaching skills

The two selected LH for Ireland are getting on - neither will see 32.
EOS has already gone past Dooley and Bryne in terms of playing levels
Neither of the two other senior loose heads at Munster will see 30 again
None of the senior Loose heads at Connacht will see 29 again.
Given the level of performance of EOS and the age of the alternatives it is criminal EOS is not in the squad

theslosty wrote:Jean Kleyn and Ryan Baird offer more than O'Connor or Treadwell.
This is an good example of where I fundamentally disagree.
Baird looks a decent player but to be honest in the recent 'A' fixture he was totally out played by Izuchukwu.
Need to see more of Baird but I think he is being hyped because lock is the one place, Ryan apart, that Leinster are struggling to produce top players.
Toner is old and Moloney isn't good enough.
As for Kleyn, I actually prefer O'Connor.
For me Kleyn is the most overrated lock in Irish rugby and O'Connor the most underrated one.

I also suggest there are some red faces in Dublin that they let EOS and AOC go - they would be useful addition to the Leinster squad and
marked improvements on Bryne/Dooley and Moloney respectively.

I would also draw attention to two players who look likely to be discarded by Leinster and Munster.
Adam Bryne - played for Ireland. If he had been at Ulster he would have not got near the Ireland squad.
Hell at the time he wasn't even good enough to make the Ulster first XV.

Tommy O'Donnell got double figures in caps - it is my contention he would have got nowhere near that if an Ulster player

I'll throw out two more curve balls - Andrew is out performing both Heffernan and Kelleher at the moment
(Kelleher may be a prospect but until he improves his throwing he is going nowhere)
If Daly why not Lowry?
Don't get me wrong Daly is a fine prospect but so is Lowry.
We were told when Lowry was put at 15 - he'll be exposed he is not big enough (same height as Colby and Williams) Not doing to bad is he.
Lowry is a hell of a lot more ready for the international stage than Casey.

The last point and the crux of the matter is why if Munster and Ulster are, roughly, the same standard do Munster get so many more players in the squad?
If the Munster squad have more to offer is it because Munster are underperforming with the players they have, or are Ulster over performing with the players they have.
Or is it something else? - I think it is something else

I don't think bringing up a meaningless "A" fixture to judge Baird against others is a fair comparison when he has performed at a much higher level. He was one of Leinster's best players in their loss to Saracens for example and has numerous outstanding performances in the league, hence the hype. I think it's tight enough between Maloney and AOC now as Maloney has stepped up a level or two this season, which has shocked many of us. Both are good club level professionals and valuable squad members.
I suppose when your watching your own lads week in week out you're going to think your players are better, we are all biased. I do agree regarding Lowry, he's somebody I have loads of time for and I'd have no issue with seeing him in the Ireland squad, although I do think Keenan is pulling further and further away from the other FBs in Ireland with every game he plays. I can't stress enough how impressive he's been this season.

by geoff999rugby Sat 30 Jan 2021, 9:46 am

Beyond the obvious - if 'A' fixtures are meaningless why play them?
On a more serious point a players worth is, in large part, delivering week in week out.
You mention the Saracens game and yes he was very good.
One swallow and all that....I can recall games where Marcus Rea and Greg Jones were absolutely superb and on those games alone were future Internationals.

We will have to disagree on AOC and Maloney - as I say AOC is the most underrated lock in Irish rugby.

Keenan is indeed outstanding but I compared Daley to Lowry not Keenan.

by geoff999rugby Sat 30 Jan 2021, 9:50 am

neilthom7 wrote:Theres been so many over the last few days, who's left now that we should be watching out for?

First I was obvious mistaken when I said I thought Lowry, EOS and Hume get three year co0ntracts.

Been raking my brains about that because there certainly was something about three years - my guess is EOS got three years and the other two got two years.
So Hume needs a new contract

As far as I can tell the only key decisions now are
Release or resign McCall and McBurney
What to do with Roberts
What to do about Matthewson and Shanahan
The expected release of Ludik and Faddes
Henderson signing a CC (If he doesn't we will know there is a definite bias Very Happy

)

All other re signing I suggest are a formality
The fast tracking of Stewart is a big statement and a reason I think McBurney is not safe
That is three of them now - Sexton, Stewart and Doak.
If up to me Id be doing the same for McIlroy, Reid and Izzy
McCann will get a full contract as he is in his 3rd year in the Academy

by LeinsterFan4life Sat 30 Jan 2021, 1:50 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Beyond the obvious - if 'A' fixtures are meaningless why play them?
On a more serious point a players worth is, in large part, delivering week in week out.
You mention the Saracens game and yes he was very good.
One swallow and all that....I can recall games where Marcus Rea and Greg Jones were absolutely superb and on those games alone were future Internationals.

We will have to disagree on AOC and Maloney - as I say AOC is the most underrated lock in Irish rugby.

Keenan is indeed outstanding but I compared Daley to Lowry not Keenan.

Ok meaningless was the complete wrong term there as they do play an important role for the players coming up. The point was Baird has already proven himself at a higher level (I also mentioned he performed well in the league as well as the sarries game). I think Ulster have perhaps the best talent in the country coming through at the minute. They've been quite dominant at A level recently, so hopefully a lot of those lads start breaking through.

I was agreeing with you when you were comparing Lowry to Daly, I was just making the point that there is a bit of gap forming with Keenan and the other FBs (imo) but form can come and go very quickly in this game.

by geoff999rugby Sat 30 Jan 2021, 2:42 pm

When you look at 15 we are certainly spoilt for choice.
Larmour, Keenan, Daly, Addison, Stockdale, Lowry

by geoff999rugby Sat 30 Jan 2021, 2:42 pm

Local press reporting Henderson has signed a 2 year Central Contract

by geoff999rugby Mon 01 Feb 2021, 3:58 pm

Nick Timoney has signed for 2 more years.

Really impressed by the no nonsense, get things done approach of Bryn and Dan on these contracts.

by Pete330v2 Mon 01 Feb 2021, 4:48 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:Nick Timoney has signed for 2 more years.

Really impressed by the no nonsense, get things done approach of Bryn and Dan on these contracts.

It's very different isn't it.
They must all be sitting beside the printer waiting for their name to come out next.

Great to hear about Timoney and now Dave O'Connor and Greg Jones too, that paperwork is piling up.

by geoff999rugby Tue 02 Feb 2021, 5:17 pm

2 Years for Milasinovich, 1 Year for Shanhan

Both Reid and McIlroy got what I suggested (glad Bryn and Dan are listening Wink

)
1 year development followed by 1 year full contract

I'll try and piece it all together so we know who has a contract till 2022, who has one running till 2023 and who remains outstanding or we don't know about

by geoff999rugby Tue 02 Feb 2021, 5:46 pm

2021

Matt Faddes, Alby Mathewson, Louis Ludik, Bradley Roberts
Bill Johnston, Ross Kane, Adam McBurney, Kyle McCall
David MCann #, Azur Allison #

2022

Billy Burns, John Cooney, Tom O’Toole, Stuart McCloskey, Jack McGrath, Marty Moore, Matthew Rea, Sean Reidy, Dave Shanahan,
Leone Nakarawa, Angus Curtis, Dave O'Connor, Craig Gilroy, Greg Jones, Marcus Rea, James Hume, Eric O'Sullivan

2023

Will Addison, Jordi Murphy, Rob Lyttle, Stewart Moore, Jacob Stockdale (cc) Luke Marshall, Alan O’Connor, Robert Baloucoune,
(Aaron Sexton), John Andrew, (Nathan Doak), Iain Henderson (cc), Rob Herring, Kieran Treadwell, Ian Madigan, Sam Carter,
Nick Timoney, Gareth Milasinovich, Michael Lowry, (Tom Stewart), (Callum Reid), (Ethan McIlroy) , Andrew Warwick

Those with # are Academy players in their 3rd year - McCann is a certainty, Allison depends on an assessment of long term fitness
Those with() around there names have a Year Development contract automatically followed by a 1 year full contract

by geoff999rugby Tue 02 Feb 2021, 5:56 pm

Lets be honest - McCann is no brainers

For the others they are either gone or waiting nervously
One of McBurney and Roberts will survive

I would suggest:
Matt Faddes, Alby Mathewson, Louis Ludik, Kyle McCall are OUT
Bill Johnston, Ross Kane, are IN

by geoff999rugby Tue 02 Feb 2021, 9:06 pm

The departures have started

McCall has gone and also Johnson.
So I was wrong and some here were right.

That tells me a few things:
Firstly we will see a lot more of Lowry at 10 next year and a lot of McIlroy at 15.
To be honest happy with both of those
Also Stockdale is now seen primarily as a 15
Lastly there must be one (or two) tens joining the Academy as we are down to 3 Fly Halfs now.

Kane surely must be staying which would mean Milasinovich covering LH as much as TH.
Only 3 in both position would be too thin on the ground
Also looks like we are going into the season with only 2 NIQ players and, at most, one residency qualified

It also tells me something else - cost cutting is in vogue.
Our overall salary bill will lower next year than this - thankfully we have some talented youngsters coming through

by Don Alfonso Tue 02 Feb 2021, 10:30 pm

Geoff, is Curtis seen primarily as a centre now? Or might he start to get game time at ten?

by Don Alfonso Tue 02 Feb 2021, 10:33 pm

And re: props, surely we have EOS, McGrath, Warwick and Reid at LH
Moore, O'Toole, Kane and Milasinovich at TH

by geoff999rugby Tue 02 Feb 2021, 10:48 pm

Don both good point - one I had forgotten and a case of me not counting.

Curtis has not played 10 for so long I didn't consider him.
Also forgetting a player in our sub academy who will move up - a certain James Humphreys.
You may have heard of two of his relatives
I think that Curtis will indeed be considered a 10/12 and
will be the regular 10 in the 'A' team and the 4th choice for the first XV

As to props I forgot McGrath in my maths.
The white smoke is suggesting Kane may be gone as well.
Leaves us with only 3THs which is dodgy especially with O'Toole being called up by Ireland
Warwick has played there but not recently

Ignoring the two Academy players from the list above, under 2021, I can only see 1 Hooker been retained.
Seems the rest are gone.

Definite cost cutting.
As an aside we roughly will have the following breakdown in the senior squad (including those guaranteed a senior contract in 2022/23)
50%+ Ulster born
25%+ Irish born elsewhere
5 Irish qualified by a parents (that does include Murphy)
4 Irish qualified by a grandparent
2 NIQ

by neilthom7 Wed 03 Feb 2021, 9:33 pm

Ulster aren't limiting the contract to just players, forwards coach Roddy Grant and Dan Soper have both been given new contracts. Soper is moving from skills coach to assistant head coach.

by geoff999rugby Wed 03 Feb 2021, 10:33 pm

Soper will take over Attack duties from Peel.

That's another salary saved.
Given Naka is probably on the same as Faddes was, or pretty close, effectively
we have shaved the salaries of Coetzee(biggest salary on the books), Peel,
Ludik, Matthewson, McCall, Kane (probably),Johnston off the books
McCann being the only one getting a full contract next year, with Naka replacing Faddes for the same amount.
Added to which I am convince Gilroy would have had to take a significant cut.

That is a huge saving reflecting the effect of no spectators.

by geoff999rugby Thu 04 Feb 2021, 1:31 pm

Someone on the other site saying Ross Kane has got one more year
(I am glad Bryn and Dan continue to listen to me - one up on KOTH as well - always good Very Happy

)
Also saying McCall has retired - sad but not surprised

So the player who only got one year are

Dave Shanahan,
Leone Nakarawa, Angus Curtis, Dave O'Connor, Craig Gilroy, Greg Jones, Marcus Rea, Ross Kane
Nakarawa was only going to get 1 year because NIQ and over 30

I would venture to suggest the other 6 are the lower rated players.
2 are still young - Curtis and Rea

O'Connor, Shanahan and Kane are cover players
I think Jones has been unlucky
What it does show is how much Gilroy has slipped down the rankings

by Don Alfonso Thu 04 Feb 2021, 7:09 pm

Have just noticed the title of the thread. 18-19? That's appalling. We used to boss this forum.

And although we weren't the most numerous, we were the best posters on the original.

by neilthom7 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 8:07 pm

Yes it is a bit out of date, heres a new thread for Ulster rugby 2020/201

https://www.606v2.com/t69964-ulster-rugby-2020-2021#3950783

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