England v Scotland 6N Round 5 Saturday 16th March

First topic message reminder :

England v Scotland
6N Round 5
Saturday 16th March
Twickenham Stadium
London

KO 17.00

Well here we are at the final round of matches and three teams can still come out on top following Ireland's demolition of France this afternoon.

England have the advantage of playing last and will know what they have to do, if Wales have not already wrapped it up with a Grand Slam earlier in the afternoon. That actually might be Scotland's best chance of getting anything out of this game if England get distracted about what is going on else where, particularly if they find playing for second spot a distraction, knowing Wales have already wrapped things up.

On paper, this is only going to be an English win, the only question being by how much.

Scotland have had an awful championship, where just about everything that could have gone wrong. They are only playing for pride, but history tells us that sides that are done at this stage in the competition, rarely have anything left in the tank for the final game.

It is not as if Scotland have any form at Twickenham either, we have not won there since 1983 (did I ever mention that I was there!). We had had a crap season and no-one gave us much of a chance that year either if I remember, then the following year we won the GS. Can I see that happening this time though?

Only in my dreams!

So what do both sides hope to get from the game?

England clearly want a BP victory, some revenge for last year and hopefully a championship. They would also like to show the continued emergence of such players as Cockanasiga, who could be pivotal to them doing well in the WC.

Scotland, despite whatever spin they put on the game, might just be happy with a decent performance and continued development of some of our young starlets. We took another pile of injuries this weekend and getting a half decent competitive side onto the pitch is going to be a challenge in itself. Still, this exposure might be the making of young Hastings, Bradbury, Graham, McDowell, Skinner, Ritchie and anyone else who gets to play, down the line.

Test rugby is a hard old place to earn your living and they will likely be finding that out next weekend.



England


Daly, Nowell, Slade, Tuilagi, May; Farrell, Youngs; Moon, George, Sinckler, Launchbury, Kruis, Wilson, Curry, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Cole, Shields, Hughes, Spencer, Ford, Te'o



Scotland:

Maitland; Graham, Grigg, Johnson, McGuigan; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally (capt), Nel; Toolis, Gilchrist; Skinner, Watson, Bradbury.

Replacements: Brown, Reid, Berghan, J Gray, Strauss, Laidlaw, Hastings, Harris

robbo277 wrote:
The good thing about JJ was he was comfortable leaving a lot of space on the outside and covering the ground. Manu might not be as comfortable with so much space.

However the two incidents I've picked up weren't really caused by someone leaving a gap, it was just that we numbered up wrong. Maybe we were lacking an on-field defensive coordinator, and maybe Slade or Joseph would have picked up on this. But I don't think it was a pace issue.

I think another factor in the overlap was Daly's inexperience at fullback. A good defensive fullback shuts down attacks before they start by occupying the space and eyeline of the attackers so they look elsewhere. Daly just hasn't played there enough to do that instinctively. (Whereas Brown had it from the moment he broke into the Quins side as a 20 year old - the comment from the touchline after his first game was "yup, that's a proper fullback")

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given the dreadful state of the news this morning lets just hope for 3 great games and remember rugby is for fun.

Sport is a huge part of our lives, but despite what people sometimes say it is not life or death (or more important than that). So yes, I hope we have 3 games played and supported in the right spirit.

Yeah I'm feeling pretty numb this morning - it's truly horrific.

What I like about this forum is that it is a place where we can talk about these things to try an process what happened - England v Scotland rugby game has got nothing to do with a terror attack in NZ but we're all human beings who are deeply affected by things like this.

RDW wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given the dreadful state of the news this morning lets just hope for 3 great games and remember rugby is for fun.

Sport is a huge part of our lives, but despite what people sometimes say it is not life or death (or more important than that). So yes, I hope we have 3 games played and supported in the right spirit.

Yeah I'm feeling pretty numb this morning - it's truly horrific.

What I like about this forum is that it is a place where we can talk about these things to try an process what happened - England v Scotland rugby game has got nothing to do with a terror attack in NZ but we're all human beings who are deeply affected by things like this.

It's horrific, and horrible to think of it happening in New Zealand, which is one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

Poorfour wrote:

RDW wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Given the dreadful state of the news this morning lets just hope for 3 great games and remember rugby is for fun.

Sport is a huge part of our lives, but despite what people sometimes say it is not life or death (or more important than that). So yes, I hope we have 3 games played and supported in the right spirit.

Yeah I'm feeling pretty numb this morning - it's truly horrific.

What I like about this forum is that it is a place where we can talk about these things to try an process what happened - England v Scotland rugby game has got nothing to do with a terror attack in NZ but we're all human beings who are deeply affected by things like this.

It's horrific, and horrible to think of it happening in New Zealand, which is one of the most tolerant countries in the world.

It only takes one idiot to ruin things for everyone else. I just can't get my head around how anyone can take the life of another human being. To take so many innocent lives because your reality has been wraped and twisted is just beyond comprehension.

Can only echo the above, such sad news. Sport does have little meaning in the grand scheme of things, and I read that, quite rightly, the cricket Test match has been cancelled

It appears as though the Bangladesh team was very close to being involved - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/47580443

Many people bluntly have their lives, their hopes, dreams, thoughts of love, happiness etc taken from them by an allegedly lone killer in New Zealand. Yes, who has the right to take life from all those people?
But at times like this, I always think of all the mini wars and conflicts going on around the world where equally innocent people with the same dreams are killed on a dayly basis. Now it might be understandable to think the Western World with it's familial links and communication links will think more of people and places like New Zealand and France and Canada etc.
But at these times I always spare a thought for the people dying by the tens or by the hundreds that we don't get told about, aren't aware of but who are dying at the hands of weapons and ammunition produced in Europe, in America, in Russia and I think too that these armaments industries are spoken of in respectable terms, in terms of job, economy etc. And yet producing these Killing tools aren't where profits come from - using them is where the profits come from.

Absolutely Mr Fly, "the West" need to take much of the responsibility for many things going on the world. Just like with the new world league that's starting up soon, it's all about the money I'm afraid.

I can't remember who, but some philospopical guru said the human race will go down one of two paths. The Star Trek path where all is right in the world, everyone lives in confort, there's no money and everyone lives for the good of society. Then there is the Star Wars path where there's a massive divide between those who have money and power and those that have none. It will all come down to if the Human race wants to get rid of money as that's always been the source of troubles!

"Wales look tired."

Eddie Jones, man who hasn't slept since Feb 23rd.

https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2019/mar/14/eddie-jones-pressure-wales-six-nations

Eddie clearly feeling the pressure and about to fold, something I've never seen from him before. Considering that he is considered the main motivator by you English then one can only assume this will rub off on the players. Scotland to win.

...

You English refers to the ones on this forum, and I'm paraphrasing those fans. Considering there are a host of English posters constantly coming onto the Wales thread to wum and ref-blame, I find your comments pathetic and so is the link which doesn't seem to prove any point (apart from mine). Can we get back to the rugby, I wouldn't want to see you WUMs ruin this thread.

Mikey I get you have a crusade against certain English posters but this is yet another example of a thread going completely fine then you come along and cause aggro out of nothing - you have created this current argument yourself.

Continually complaining about alleged wumming often causes as much trouble as actual wumming.

It should be noted that I posted about the rugby, and was the victim of petty insults; or am I missing something?

I'm beginning to question Jones' coaching and motivational factor, the thing he is supposedly good at, and I gave you a link to explain why.

I actually think we might do better than I first thought here. It may be misplaced optimism, but I have misplaced so much optimism on Scotland's rugby teams that I may as well misplace some more.

My reasoning? English players, past and present are lining up to talk about last year and the supposed over celebration of the Scotland players, the tunnel scrap and Eddie Jones' treatment. In doing so I believe they may be falling into a trap Scotland have fallen into many, many times. Basically, caring too much. In matches against the English our players have quite regularly bottled it under self imposed pressure. Execution and intelligent play are lost.
The prime examples being 2016 and 2017. In 2016 we faced an England side low on confidence and off the back of a strong world cup showing in which we should have faced Argentina for a place in the final. On the day I think we had much, much the better team. Instead we failed to land a punch, our best chance ruined by Finn Russell failing to spot Hogg and instead kicking it away aimlessly. In 2017 we went down to Twickenham for what was, in effect, a title decider. In the first two minutes an overzealous Fraser Brown recklessly tackled Elliot Daly and got himself yellow carded, add in a couple of injuries and it was game over. The thrashing came about as a consequence of the utter breakdown of our defensive system.
In effect, from my playing and viewing experience, being overly psyched for a game has three consequences; the first one being that everything clicks and you produce an amazing performance such as us in 2018, the second being that the self imposed pressure you place yourself under puts you in a position where you cannot execute as promised, as the game goes on you get more and more frustrated and more and more desperate like our players in 2016 or as in 2018, discipline and game plans go out the window and you end up with utter chaos.
Eddie Jones and Owen Farrell are experienced enough that the first is more likely, but the other two are an option.

Well Jones' ploy of making waves so no one concentrates on players or anything he doesn't want focus on has worked to an extent. Surprised he didn't get more bites about Simpson-daniel but most saw through it. Ironically on Edinburgh tomorrow so really hoping it's a repeat of 2 years ago so I can stay relatively quiet and happy.

It's not so much Jones' comments I'm referring to but the ones from people who aren't in the camp but close to it. Guys like Haskell and Care. As I've said, Jones is probably the most experienced of the top level international coaches currently, and although inexperienced as an international captain Farrell has seen a world cup failure, two Lions tours, European Cups and seems quite level headed. So yes, England are better placed than most for what's coming. However the noises emanating from the England camp are that they are fuming and very emotionally invested in this game.

mikey_dragon wrote:It should be noted that I posted about the rugby, and was the victim of petty insults; or am I missing something?

I'm beginning to question Jones' coaching and motivational factor, the thing he is supposedly good at, and I gave you a link to explain why.

OK so you accept that Wales beating England was down to Jones not Wales being good then?

Am I the only one who rather enjoys the pre-match spice? It's one thing the players being too emotionally invested in it (rightly or wrongly) but don't stress out over some WUM comments, I worry about some of you.

Sorry 123 my comment was just related to the fact I was reading a Cokanasiga article on BBC. Your post wasn't there when writing and the mobile version doesn't warn you a new post has been made.
I'd agree that England are using pent up frustration from last year and to an extent Wales earlier this tournament to fuel them. Could go badly if they're too wound up.

Gooseberry wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:It should be noted that I posted about the rugby, and was the victim of petty insults; or am I missing something?

I'm beginning to question Jones' coaching and motivational factor, the thing he is supposedly good at, and I gave you a link to explain why.

OK so you accept that Wales beating England was down to Jones not Wales being good then?

I've only recently questioned Jones' motivational prowess, etc. I did it on the back of an article I just posted; that and the fact that you all took last years defeat really personal. These are vibes that I haven't seen or felt from Jones and the England camp for a while, I merely alluded to it. How you surmised that I don't know, then again we seen the accusations or Jones' bottling it and ref's rather than Wales being good anyway. My advice to you is like Gatland's advice to uncle Eddie; concentrate on Scotland .

There are some really interesting head-to-heads in these team sheets. My personal picks:

George vs McInally
Two hookers that I'd expect to go on tour with the Lions if fit. They also have different styles of play.

Curry vs Watson
Watson returned with a bang against Wales and Curry is having a fantastic 6 Nations. Watson offers more in attack, I'd argue Curry is a more prevalent tackler round the fringes and both are excellent at the breakdown. They are two of my favourite players to watch and I'm really looking forward to this battle.

Farrell vs Russell
Two very different players who are relied on massively by both sides. I'm interested to see how goal kicking effects Russell's game when Laidlaw isn't playing, he's a confidence player and it isn't the strongest part of his game. Farrell is in charge of an England attack that's coming under increasing scrutiny for relying on forcing mistakes, rather than creativity, to produce tries.

Daly vs Maitland
In my opinion neither are playing in their strongest position. I expect Scotland will target Daly and England will target the Scotland back three as a whole with Seymour and Hogg injured. How these two marshal their wingers will have a big impact on the game.

At the risk of sounding like a whinging England fan - England lost last year because they didn't react to the breakdown free for all allowed by the referee. With Peyper I think we will see a much more structured interpretation of the rules which will suit England.

On the match ups, if the above can get parity with their opposite number, then I think England's weight of ability 1 to 15 will be too much for Scotland. If Kruis and Launchbury can get the edge in the scrum and at the lineout, you would hope that Tuilagi, May, Slade and Nowell can turn that into points. A loss against this Scotland team (taking into account all their injuries) and at this point before the world cup - and after the 'failure' against Wales - would be a real blow.

Load of shoite from Marler here
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-6815005/Theyre-Scots-theyre-not-good-England.html

Cites MacInally and Jamie George as the future Lions hookers, says only Watson and Russell would make the English bench, presumably Luke Cowan-Dickie has a holiday booked in for 2021 already. Also undermines England's official holier than thou act about last year chatting about his antics in 2017. No surprise that Scotland celebrated as they did if England carried on as he described the year before. His chat about Scottish players with English accents is exceptionally disrespectful. On some players he's probably correct, but I was born and brought up in the South of England. I sound as English as they come. But if I had been good enough to be asked to play for England and Scotland I'd have chosen Scotland every day of the week and twice on the Sunday. In fact, unless I had literally zero chance of playing for Scotland I'd have rejected England out of hand. Nationality and allegiance is a difficult concept (Robert the Bruce was born in Essex), it's incredibly personal. Lastly, there's no way Marler has been writing a column himself and I'm quite disappointed he's signed off on that crap. I really like Marler as a player and I like what I've heard about him as a person. He normally comes off well in interviews. But that sort of thing doesn't help the perception of English people in Scotland (and elsewhere).

The latest news on Dan Robson is desperate news for the young man. He is already being reported as likely to miss the rest of the season. However that downplays the seriousness of hi medical condition. Until a cause for the spontaneous blood clotting can be found his career (and life) is at stake.

Jesus.

Bloody hell!

Christ on a bike that's not good news.
Hope they can find the answers

Hope the young man pulls through. Sounds a very frightening condition. However in the interests of player safety, lots of questions will be raised about the specifics of his illness.

That news has horrible reminders of Nick Duncombe, another England scrum half

They may not find the answers, there are risk factors for causing blood clots such as immobility, smoking, contraceptive pills and others, none of which you would imagine would apply to him. People do also get them out of the blue and for no obvious reason.

Unfortunately the treatment for one, is blooding thinning medication and all contact sports will be off the menu whilst he is taking them.

It is not necessarily for life though and if the clots disperse with the treatment, he may be able to come off them and carry on as normal. I would imagine he will be on them for 6 months as a first instance and then review. I think one of the South Africans, Pierre Spies had a similar issue and he came back and played again afterwards.

Not looking good for him for this WC unfortunately.

There are other potential reasons too when sport is the topic. Just have to be open to all issues possible.

Worrying about Robson.

I think England score 50 today.

England 54 Scotland 19

EnglishReign wrote:Am I the only one who rather enjoys the pre-match spice? It's one thing the players being too emotionally invested in it (rightly or wrongly) but don't stress out over some WUM comments, I worry about some of you.

My wife and her family are all English and I always really look forward to this fixture regardless of the outcome. It’s all good fun at the end of the day.

Poor bloke, hopefully pulls through quicker than expected. Some of my best Glaws memories involve his magic at scrum half and it would be a shame to have his talent sidelined for too long.

Ok. Its time for the ritual humiliation.  Scotland will do well to keep it to a 30 pt loss.

I’m really not looking forward to this.

We need to win this game after the assault on the ears of that oompa pa version of flower of Scotland.

Ps, flower of Scotland is a dirge. Oompa pa version didn’t improve it

Well that was far, far too easy.

We really don't believe in making it easy for ourselves, do we?

Nicely finished by Nowell ...

Grigg came flying out of the line and missed, that was costly

Awful midfield defence

tigertattie wrote:We need to win this game after the assault on the ears of that oompa pa version of flower of Scotland.

Ps, flower of Scotland is a dirge. Oompa pa version didn’t improve it

The only thing to be done with anything written by the Corries is to switch it off.

So apparently you can play the ball while lying on the ground on your back

This could be embarrassing

Assume the position boys

Hm i think this will be turned off soon if this keeps up. Have a horrible feeling it'll be another record breaker

RDW wrote:So apparently you can play the ball while lying on the ground on your back

Think he'd already got hands on when on his feet and only got dragged to ground as the opposing player didn't release ...

In glad I've already had 6 pints by this point