Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[dynamark]

First topic message reminder :

I think its a done deal -no doubt he will be sat with the owner tonight
Villa should be a big big club remember going to cup semis there but probably need an owner willing to throw in some quick money .
No messing around in football these days from any of the owners.

[navyblueshorts]

On the subject of Mac, saw this and though of him. Wonder why....?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/06/man-behind-woke-twitter-account-titania-mcgrath-people-sick/

[McLaren]

Navy

I am only considered "woke" on here in comparison to some of the dinosaurs that post. For my age and background I don't think my objections to racism would be considered the avant garde of the current woke movement.

[McLaren]

On a woke note, has anyone on here been following the transgender women in womans sport story that has come to a head over the last week or so?

For me (and I am not just trying to be anti woke) it is fairly obvious, however unfortunate, that trans women shouldn't be competing in womens sport.

The abuse that Martina, Kelly homes, Sharon Davis etc have got for pointing this out in what I thought was a pretty polite way has been quite sad. It's martina navratilova FFS, a women who has progressed the LGBT cause more than almost any other sportsperson I can think of.

[superflyweight]

On a woke note, has anyone on here been following the transgender women in womans sport story that has come to a head over the last week or so?

For me (and I am not just trying to be anti woke) it is fairly obvious, however unfortunate, that trans women shouldn't be competing in womens sport.  

The abuse that Martina, Kelly homes, Sharon Davis etc have got for pointing this out in what I thought was a pretty polite way has been quite sad. It's martina navratilova FFS, a women who has progressed the LGBT cause more than almost any other sportsperson I can think of.

It's a complicated issue and there's a fair amount of science to it that I don't know enough about in order to form a clear opinion, but it looks to me like there needs to be a lot more discussion on it before trans women should openly be allowed to compete in women only sports.  It really doesn't help that when someone like Navratilova expresses genuine and well thought out concerns that she's immediately labelled a transphobe by a fundamentalist like Rachel McKinnon.  

It's fairly obvious that reducing someone's testosterone levels alone is not enough to negate other natural male physical advantages like bone density and core muscle development.  It's bad enough in non-contact sports but it definitely doesn't sit right in relation to things like boxing and MMA.  

I had a fairly civilized disagreement with a trans woman on Twitter last week.  She was objecting to the idea of segregation of trans women so that they could only compete against other trans women and whilst I can understand why she would be concerned by the idea of segregation, she did concede that the Paralympics segregated athletes based on physical characteristics and that the Paralympics had done a lot to fight disability discrimination.  Maybe that's the answer in the short to medium term?

[Roller_Coaster]

On the subject of Mac, saw this and though of him. Wonder why....?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/06/man-behind-woke-twitter-account-titania-mcgrath-people-sick/

I wondered why when I saw the word Telegraph in the link. Then I clicked on it.

In the cause of fairness, Mac has given me a couple of legitimate chuckles this week. Quite where he got the photo of Super from in the K vest thread, I don't know

[Roller_Coaster]

On a woke note, has anyone on here been following the transgender women in womans sport story that has come to a head over the last week or so?

For me (and I am not just trying to be anti woke) it is fairly obvious, however unfortunate, that trans women shouldn't be competing in womens sport.  

The abuse that Martina, Kelly homes, Sharon Davis etc have got for pointing this out in what I thought was a pretty polite way has been quite sad. It's martina navratilova FFS, a women who has progressed the LGBT cause more than almost any other sportsperson I can think of.

It's a complicated issue and there's a fair amount of science to it that I don't know enough about in order to form a clear opinion, but it looks to me like there needs to be a lot more discussion on it before trans women should openly be allowed to compete in women only sports.  It really doesn't help that when someone like Navratilova expresses genuine and well thought out concerns that she's immediately labelled a transphobe by a fundamentalist like Rachel McKinnon.  

It's fairly obvious that reducing someone's testosterone levels alone is not enough to negate other natural male physical advantages like bone density and core muscle development.  It's bad enough in non-contact sports but it definitely doesn't sit right in relation to things like boxing and MMA.  

I had a fairly civilized disagreement with a trans woman on Twitter last week.  She was objecting to the idea of segregation of trans women so that they could only compete against other trans women and whilst I can understand why she would be concerned by the idea of segregation, she did concede that the Paralympics segregated athletes based on physical characteristics and that the Paralympics had done a lot to fight disability discrimination.  Maybe that's the answer in the short to medium term?

It probably is, but the mere use of the word segregation even if used correctly and in full appreciation of the context in which it is used will have metaphorical gallows being constructed. That be the way it are.

[McLaren]

Superfly

I appreciate that we do not understand all the science behind how testosterone or other molecules shape the male and female bodies. But not quite understanding the molecular biology isn't always necessary when you can measure what the actual animal is up to. We have a lot of empirical evidence which suggests that humans with XY chromosomes perform way better than those with XX in most sporting situations. I guess the hole in this argument is that we haven't had enough trans women measured for sporting performance but I still maintain that getting bogged down on exactly what testosterone is doing to the body is red herring.

It could easily be the case that with exactly the same level of testosterone trans women will still on average have higher performance than women. As you say this could be because of any number of factors like bone density or muscle formation during puberty.

I just don't think it would be fair to womens sport to have a situation where trans women who have achieved some almost arbitrary set of molecular tests can compete and still wipe the floor with them.

[Diggers]

Good luck today, Ben, shame we never got our act together to meet up. I shall be watching my 9 year old in a ballet comp instead...where did it all go wrong!

[dynamark]

My sympathy Digs I spent 13 years turning out for daughters dance festivals and the like missed all manner of sporting events . Long term I can promise the discipline and confidence it gives them is probably well worth it though. That applies to all of her group from that time.

[dynamark]

My sympathy Digs I spent 13 years turning out for daughters dance festivals and the like missed all manner of sporting events . Long term I can promise the discipline and confidence it gives them is  probably well worth it though. That applies to all of her group from that time.

[Diggers]

Lucky late goal for us, sounds like a fun game, 3 injury time sending offs, injury after we’d used our subs so game finished 9 v 9! Looking at the stats seems we rode our luck, guess this is why we don’t lose many.

[Diggers]

Few ifs here, but if City win the domestic treble, or the Champions League and League, surely one of their players must be Player of the Year. Even if they just retain the league, in a proper title race, with the League Cup won already, it should go to a City player. Fantastic as Van Dijk is, a  Liverpool player should only win it if they win the League or Champions League (which could still happen). Salah got it last year without a trophy, but he’s not hit those heights this year.
If one of those scenarios happens, Sterling must be in with a shout surely, the only other options are Fernandinho or Aguero as far as I can see. Doubt it will do to a DM, fantastic as he is, so that just leaves the other two.
I don’t see a massive case for anyone other than VD, Fernandinho, Aguero or Sterling.

[beninho]

Theres always next season diggers... and to be honest im battling some laryngitis, so 100 minutes of shouting would have tipped me over the edge!

Sounds like a crazy game, think you got lucky in the end. Over 8500 fans aswell which is good for the funds!

[Be_the_ball]

I've just been introduced to the word "cisgender", Can someone please stop the world I want to get off.

[McLaren]

Did you not study chemistry be_the_ball?

[navyblueshorts]

'cis-gender'? . It's not even a made up word that means anything in the context it's being used, is it?

[McLaren]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

[Diggers]

'cis-gender'? . It's not even a made up word that means anything in the context it's being used, is it?

I don’t think it’s anything new, just not a word you’d hear outside of a lab. Let’s not suddenly go crazy, it’s just a classification for n the same way trans is, but in the grand scheme we don’t have a need to use it. I doubt anyone is running around demanding to be called cisgender.

[Be_the_ball]

I'm struggling to understand why it needs to exist. "Cis people are those living as their birth gender", otherwise known as men and women. I'm not of the opinion that gender is a social construct, it is biological fact. When we start to deny science to accommodate people's feelings we are into the realm of the absurd.

[Diggers]

The whole trans conversation is a big debate, even within the world of science there are clearly grey areas. Strikes me that you are trying to make something more out of a relatively obscure, and decades old, lab classification than needs to be made. Just my opinion.

[McLaren]

be_the_ball

The chromosomes you are born with are a biological fact, and so you could just about say your sex is a biological fact but gender is influenced by the society you are raised in.

[super_realist]

be_the_ball

The chromosomes you are born with are a biological fact, and so you could just about say your sex is a biological fact but gender is influenced by the society you are raised in.

Mac, If you can choose to identify as a man or a woman, what's to stop someone identifying as a black person, disabled or a different nationality? If it's just how you feel/think you are then by that rationale I'm not Scottish, or even especially British.


I'd be interested to see where you stand on Semenya, a genetically male female so to speak.

[Diggers]

Semenya is surely an example of why you would have a term like cisgender. In her instance she “chooses” to identify as female, whereas many, who might be offended that the term even exists, would say she’s male.
In itself it’s very different to people who choose to identify as a different gender than as defined by their chromosomes. Biology is obviously a science, but so is psychology.

[McLaren]

What is actually up with Semenya? I thought she was biological female (XX) but with high than normal testosterone levels? If this is the case then she just hit the physiological jackpot for sport, like many top athletes have over the years.


Super

The difference is that being transgender is a well researched and studied "condition". And on top of this we have created a society with very defined gender roles.

[beninho]

I'm not sure about choosing what you want to be deemed as,unless ypu are going through gender reassignment. But if soneone is, or if soneone has male and female chromosomes (semenya?) Surely they can have a term for people living as they are born apart from normal. Because if they are normal are you not normal? Thats a strong term for someone potentially coming to terms with something prettu big in their life.

[super_realist]

From what I've heard Mac she has male genetics.

What has gender roles got to do with whether you "identify" as a particular gender. You either do or you don't.

It's only a matter of time before people are choosing whatever they want to be and society will be forced to accept it, so I'll be expecting Mac to declare himself a black, Nigerian, disabled lesbian in no time at all. On the plus side perhaps he can just declare himself successful and we'll have to treat him/her as such.

It's clearly got to a quite ridiculous state when someone as irritating as Jack Monroe, clearly a woman, who has lived their entire life as such begins to identify as "gender neutral"

[Diggers]

Where is there any evidence people are randomly declaring themselves to be disabled or a different ethnicity? Whereas for centuries assigned gender has been an issue.

[super_realist]

I'm not saying that Diggers, I'm saying that if people can identify as a particular gender when physically and genetically they aren't, then how long before people start to claim they are a particular colour, level of physical ability etc.
I've no problem with people who genuinely affected, but we've got so many deadbeats these days declaring they are so and so like the idiotic Jack Monroe.

Why does everything have to be so literal with you Diggers, don't you ever detect flippancy?

[McLaren]

Super

Are you saying Sememya is XY with androgen insensitivity or something like that?

[Diggers]

Simply because you constantly state stuff as a literal choice. You accuse everyone of taking things literally, I suggest you might want to take a look at how you write as being part of the problem.

[Be_the_ball]

Semenya has a female anatomy but internal testis and no womb as far as I know. My point is in relation to this article where a trans woman feels threatened by cisgender women -
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/mar/10/transgender-model-threat-from-women

[Diggers]

Interesting article.

[navyblueshorts]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

Well, duh. I know why the phrase has been concocted, but it's stupid and irrelevant. I'm a man, I'm not a cis-man. It's the status quo. This is making up terminology to sound clever, when in actual fact, it just sounds stupid.

[navyblueshorts]

'cis-gender'? . It's not even a made up word that means anything in the context it's being used, is it?

I don’t think it’s anything new, just not a word you’d hear outside of a lab. Let’s not suddenly go crazy, it’s just a classification for n the same way trans is, but in the grand scheme we don’t have a need to use it. I doubt anyone is running around demanding to be called cisgender.

My point exactly. It's created and used for 'woke' berks to sound clever. They don't.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm struggling to understand why it needs to exist. "Cis people are those living as their birth gender", otherwise known as men and women. I'm not of the opinion that gender is a social construct, it is biological fact. When we start to deny science to accommodate people's feelings we are into the realm of the absurd.

[navyblueshorts]

be_the_ball

The chromosomes you are born with are a biological fact, and so you could just about say your sex is a biological fact but gender is influenced by the society you are raised in.

Don't. be. daft. Gender is a biological term. It's fact, relating to phenotypic expression of sexual genotype.

[navyblueshorts]

Semenya is surely an example of why you would have a term like cisgender. In her instance she “chooses” to identify as female, whereas many, who might be offended that the term even exists, would say she’s male.
In itself it’s very different to people who choose to identify as a different gender than as defined by their chromosomes. Biology is obviously a science, but so is psychology.

I suggest we leave her out of it. Her genotype isn't public knowledge, nor is the reason why her androgen levels are an issue.

[navyblueshorts]

Super

Are you saying Sememya is XY with androgen insensitivity or something like that?

Super has no more idea as to her situation that any of the rest of us.

[Roller_Coaster]

I identify as a water biscuit, but with leanings towards neutrality on Thursdays and green weekends, spare a thought when replying as reading consonants causes me great offence and I will need therapy and you will hear from my lawyer for the compensation this society will deem me as worthy of receiving.

[pedro]

One more letter and the LGBTQIAPD community won't be a minority anymore.

[beninho]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

Well, duh. I know why the phrase has been concocted, but it's stupid and irrelevant. I'm a man, I'm not a cis-man. It's the status quo. This is making up terminology to sound clever, when in actual fact, it just sounds stupid.

Sounds stupid to you. But your not a transgender person dealing with whatever they have to do with. I would class myself as a man, but wouldn't see it as stupid if someone said I was cisgender instead of saying I was nornal and they were abnormal.

Just because someone is different and they use different terms to help them, doesn't mean they are stupid.

[Diggers]

A girl (then) I taught 2 years ago, now in Year 7 so probably 12, has just asked to be known as a boy. Thinking back there were a few signs, really lovely kid, I also taught her sister last year and know the parents reasonably well.
It was a massively difficult, and IMO brave, decision for the child and the family. Her High School have handled it well, but as you can imagine her sister struggled with it and the child involved has been subject to some bullying.
The idea that people take these decisions lightly, or to gain some kind of advantage, to me is bizarre. It will almost certainly make their life much, much harder It's not a choice as such, it's a compelling feeling of what you are. The whole sports debate is just a tiny part of the gender debate, pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme, but obviously gets the column inches.
Faux offence gets mentioned on here, this seems to me a classic case of people being offended by a choice that will have absolutely zero impact on their life, and one where they can't really make any claim to understand why the person involved would decide to make the decision.
To be honest with some of the comments re biology on here, I'm just waiting for someone to talk about homosexuality being unnatural.

[navyblueshorts]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

Well, duh. I know why the phrase has been concocted, but it's stupid and irrelevant. I'm a man, I'm not a cis-man. It's the status quo. This is making up terminology to sound clever, when in actual fact, it just sounds stupid.

Sounds stupid to you. But your not a transgender person dealing with whatever they have to do with. I would class myself as a man, but wouldn't see it as stupid if someone said I was cisgender instead of saying I was nornal and they were abnormal.

Just because someone is different and they use different terms to help them, doesn't mean they are stupid.

Did I mention normal/abnormal? I don't think so. If people want to use the term 'cis-gender', I won't stop them, but I will laugh at them. Seriously, it's long since past the time when the assumption is that everyone not of some minority is inherently against them.

[Diggers]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

Well, duh. I know why the phrase has been concocted, but it's stupid and irrelevant. I'm a man, I'm not a cis-man. It's the status quo. This is making up terminology to sound clever, when in actual fact, it just sounds stupid.

Sounds stupid to you. But your not a transgender person dealing with whatever they have to do with. I would class myself as a man, but wouldn't see it as stupid if someone said I was cisgender instead of saying I was nornal and they were abnormal.

Just because someone is different and they use different terms to help them, doesn't mean they are stupid.

Did I mention normal/abnormal? I don't think so. If people want to use the term 'cis-gender', I won't stop them, but I will laugh at them. Seriously, it's long since past the time when the assumption is that everyone not of some minority is inherently against them.

Is it?

[navyblueshorts]

A girl (then) I taught 2 years ago, now in Year 7 so probably 12, has just asked to be known as a boy. Thinking back there were a few signs, really lovely kid, I also taught her sister last year and know the parents reasonably well.
It was a massively difficult, and IMO brave, decision for the child and the family. Her High School have handled it well, but as you can imagine her sister struggled with it and the child involved has been subject to some bullying.
The idea that people take these decisions lightly, or to gain some kind of advantage, to me is bizarre. It will almost certainly make their life much, much harder It's not a choice as such, it's a compelling feeling of what you are. The whole sports debate is just a tiny part of the gender debate, pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme, but obviously gets the column inches.
Faux offence gets mentioned on here, this seems to me a classic case of people being offended by a choice that will have absolutely zero impact on their life, and one where they can't really make any claim to understand why the person involved would decide to make the decision.
To be honest with some of the comments re biology on here, I'm just waiting for someone to talk about homosexuality being unnatural.

And? No-one disagrees with you here Digs. Well, apart from your last sentence, that is. The problem with humans is they worry too much about gender, and there's too much historical/societal stereotyping and prejudice. I'm not fauxfended by the use of 'cis-gender' - it's just laughable, which is where I came from at the start of this brouhaha.

At a wider level, I guess society needs to have this sort of conversation, which'll hopefully end up with sensible outcomes. There's bound to be nonsense spouted by everyone during the process.

[navyblueshorts]

navy

I assume "cis" is used because in chemistry cis and trans are types of isomers. So cis people are those living as their birth gender.

Well, duh. I know why the phrase has been concocted, but it's stupid and irrelevant. I'm a man, I'm not a cis-man. It's the status quo. This is making up terminology to sound clever, when in actual fact, it just sounds stupid.

Sounds stupid to you. But your not a transgender person dealing with whatever they have to do with. I would class myself as a man, but wouldn't see it as stupid if someone said I was cisgender instead of saying I was nornal and they were abnormal.

Just because someone is different and they use different terms to help them, doesn't mean they are stupid.

Did I mention normal/abnormal? I don't think so. If people want to use the term 'cis-gender', I won't stop them, but I will laugh at them. Seriously, it's long since past the time when the assumption is that everyone not of some minority is inherently against them.

Is it?

You have to ask? No wonder this sort of thing gets blowback.

[navyblueshorts]

Since I'm in a fabulous mood today, is it me, or is there more being made of the death of the white, female, Jodie Chesney, than of the myriad young, black men who've been stabbed to death before her?

[Diggers]

A girl (then) I taught 2 years ago, now in Year 7 so probably 12, has just asked to be known as a boy. Thinking back there were a few signs, really lovely kid, I also taught her sister last year and know the parents reasonably well.
It was a massively difficult, and IMO brave, decision for the child and the family. Her High School have handled it well, but as you can imagine her sister struggled with it and the child involved has been subject to some bullying.
The idea that people take these decisions lightly, or to gain some kind of advantage, to me is bizarre. It will almost certainly make their life much, much harder It's not a choice as such, it's a compelling feeling of what you are. The whole sports debate is just a tiny part of the gender debate, pretty irrelevant in the grand scheme, but obviously gets the column inches.
Faux offence gets mentioned on here, this seems to me a classic case of people being offended by a choice that will have absolutely zero impact on their life, and one where they can't really make any claim to understand why the person involved would decide to make the decision.
To be honest with some of the comments re biology on here, I'm just waiting for someone to talk about homosexuality being unnatural.

And? No-one disagrees with you here Digs. Well, apart from your last sentence, that is. The problem with humans is they worry too much about gender, and there's too much historical/societal stereotyping and prejudice. I'm not fauxfended by the use of 'cis-gender' - it's just laughable, which is where I came from at the start of this brouhaha.

At a wider level, I guess society needs to have this sort of conversation, which'll hopefully end up with sensible outcomes. There's bound to be nonsense spouted by everyone during the process.

It might be laughable to use it constantly, but we don't.The brouhaha comes from one sighting in a Guardian article. And we've already established it does actually fit scientifically when describing Semenya. We may well worry too much about gender, but to use a term I hate, we are where we are. So clearly people who for whatever reason decide to change, or want to be identified differently, there is an issue. I'm also not convinced from the comments on here that nobody disagrees with me.

[beninho]

If you are trans then a non trans is cis. Its just the term used, usually by trans people. I don't get why its remotely laughable or stupid.

[Diggers]

Big 2 days in the Commons coming up. Is there anyway May's deal gets through? Can't see it myself, will she try for a third time. After all the false dawns we need to see some kind of pathway forward, maybe Wednesdays votes will give some indication on that.
Suspect some form of delay, maybe slightly longer than anticipated, 12-24 months. Think that suits the EU as they can put Brexit on the back burner, charge us some kind of monthly fee for staying.
At the end of that I think we might have a Norway type deal that could work. Still worse than staying, but not a catastrophe.

[Sponsored content]