Brexit

First topic message reminder :

Duty281 wrote:So a good day for the Prime Minister, at last. Motion carried and some pesky amendments defeated.

Yes folks a good day for the PM is telling the Country over 50 times in the Commons the UK is leaving on the 29th March and then winning an extension..

What a low bar..

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:No deal and steer the ship for a couple of years is the only way out of electoral oblivion for the Tories.

From what I've seen so far, the million pound question isn't being asked of the long list of Tory candidates - if it comes down to a straight choice, revoke article 50 or go ahead with no deal, what will you do?

In the Telegraph today, Jeremy Hunt has hinted it would be the latter, but he also says his main aim is to reenter negotiations...this is a very unlikely option! And even if the EU did reopen negotiations, there would be no significant change in the deal, as Theresa found out multiple times.

She couldn't even get the backstop changed, which you pretty much said would be really easy to do.
Presumably you at least agree that negotiations would need to be re-opened to avoid a hard border?

Never said that, the usual misrepresentation strikes. We're not having a hard border, no one wants it.

If no-one wants it, then surely it will be really easy to change. That was what I thought you were saying, but I guess I was wrong.

So how will it be avoided without the 'very unlikely option' of renegotiating with the EU?

We're leaving without a deal, renegotiation or no renegotiation.

I see, and how will the hard border be avoided without the 'very unlikely option' of renegotiating with the EU?

Because no one wants a hard border. That's why the UK and Ireland made steps towards maintaining the common travel area by signing a deal earlier this month to retain citizens' rights of travel between the two countries after Brexit.

Many political situations arose such as wars that nobody wants. Plenty in this world is unavoidable.

If war happens, it's because at least one side wants it. Someone has to be the instigator.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

So why hasn't this scenario already taken place?

Cant say I've spent much time on it, but doesn't having an open border with an EU country essentially mean being part of a customs union?

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

The DUP will be happy to hear that. Someone should tell them.

GSC wrote:Cant say I've spent much time on it, but doesn't having an open border with an EU country essentially mean being part of a customs union?

Precisely. And May's Deal (as I understand it) would have involved Northern Ireland remaining tied to a customs union (of sorts) with the EU which the DUP did not want.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

So why hasn't this scenario already taken place?

Because we haven't left the European Union yet.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

So why hasn't this scenario already taken place?

Because we haven't left the European Union yet.

And why has that not happened if a no deal Brexit with soft border is within Westminster's grasp?

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

GSC wrote:I think you can respect the original vote while accepting it didnt really define how the UK would end up leaving.

True. Why can't there be a referendum on no deal vs May's/EU's deal?

No Deal v May's deal would be absolutely fine, if I could trust Parliament to deliver on the result!

It would also be massively undemocratic to leave off the option most of the population now support.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

So why hasn't this scenario already taken place?

Because we haven't left the European Union yet.

And why has that not happened if a no deal Brexit with soft border is within Westminster's grasp?

Because Westminster doesn't support a no-deal Brexit.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:So as things currently stand, if we left tomorrow, without any further negotiations with the EU, a no deal brexit would not mean a hard border? Is that correct?
Because everything I've read from all sides indicates the contrary.

Correct.

So why hasn't this scenario already taken place?

Because we haven't left the European Union yet.

And why has that not happened if a no deal Brexit with soft border is within Westminster's grasp?

Because Westminster doesn't support a no-deal Brexit.

That much is true. And the DUP doesn't because they don't want a hard border which is the proper scenario here.

All I've seen on a quick Google search is Esther McVay talking about an invisible border

I hope David Cameron's having a nice afternoon....

GSC wrote:All I've seen on a quick Google search is Esther McVay talking about an invisible border

I didn't see that.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

GSC wrote:All I've seen on a quick Google search is Esther McVay talking about an invisible border

I didn't see that.

If that's a joke, I approve!

And this summarises things:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

CaledonianCraig wrote:And this summarises things:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

This is silly sabre-rattling as part of the negotiations.

Kinda inclined to believe an official statement saying itll happen over "nah, itll be alright"

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And this summarises things:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

This is silly sabre-rattling as part of the negotiations.

What part is a member of the Irish government involved in these negotiations given that he confirms this is the position as well?

GSC wrote:Kinda inclined to believe an official statement saying itll happen over "nah, itll be alright"

Well, as mentioned, we've already had the UK and the Irish signing a deal earlier this month to maintain the rights of UK and Irish citizens to travel across the border after Brexit.

And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:And this summarises things:-

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/22/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

This is silly sabre-rattling as part of the negotiations.

What part is a member of the Irish government involved in these negotiations given that he confirms this is the position as well?

What you have here is a spokesman for a Commissioner who doesn't have a clue, but when pushed he makes some very dangerous speculations.

No one wants a hard border. It's very unlikely to happen.

Duty281 wrote:

GSC wrote:Kinda inclined to believe an official statement saying itll happen over "nah, itll be alright"

Well, as mentioned, we've already had the UK and the Irish signing a deal earlier this month to maintain the rights of UK and Irish citizens to travel across the border after Brexit.

Yes of course. But that would happen anyway regardless of it being a hard border.

Discussions have gone on for years (yes years) and not once has the scenario come up of a deal being possible that sees a soft border remain if there is a hard or No Deal Brexit. To barter a soft border a deal has to be negotiated and agreed with the EU who the UK are seeking to leave. The EU does not allow free movement of goods/food etc that are not part of a trade deal hence why hard border is needed. So the UK can either barter for a customs union and keep a soft border or leave with No Deal and face their goods crossing into Ireland (who remain in the EU and in their trade deal agreements) going through a hard border.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

We've been down that route before. And again your solutions would need to be arrived at in discussions and a deal with the EU - not a No Deal Brexit. And the only solution that the EU see is as viable is the one in May's Deal where Northern Ireland remain in a form of customs union which the DUP reject and so we are where we are and the EU saying there will be no more compromises.

If we leave the customs union and the single market, we will have to have a hard border. It'll be a smuggler's paradise otherwise.

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

I'm not talking about a trade deal.

But you are talking about a route for goods to enter the single market

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

I'm not talking about a trade deal.

Give me strength. Borders are there to control the movements of goods be it food or otherwise. Ireland are in the EU and their goods etc are all tied into EU regulations and taxes etc so cannot cross soft borders into non-EU member countries without proper checks for which you need hard policed borders.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

I'm not talking about a trade deal.

Give me strength. Borders are there to control the movements of goods be it food or otherwise. Ireland are in the EU and their goods etc are all tied into EU regulations and taxes etc so cannot cross soft borders into non-EU member countries without proper checks for which you need hard policed borders.

Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard', neither is Germany- Switzerland.

GSC wrote:But you are talking about a route for goods to enter the single market

That is indeed the discussion at hand.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

I'm not talking about a trade deal.

Give me strength. Borders are there to control the movements of goods be it food or otherwise. Ireland are in the EU and their goods etc are all tied into EU regulations and taxes etc so cannot cross soft borders into non-EU member countries without proper checks for which you need hard policed borders.

Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard', neither is Germany- Switzerland.

I think you need to read this, Duty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594

So we cant just sort it out with the Irish on that basis

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And what will the arrangement be for goods crossing the border?

You could have any number of solutions, ranging from the technological, to customs depots or spot checks.

Without any further negotiations with the EU?

Sort it out with the Irish.

Ireland are in the EU and tied to their deals. On such matters they cannot negotiate their own trade deals which is what borders ensue.

I'm not talking about a trade deal.

Give me strength. Borders are there to control the movements of goods be it food or otherwise. Ireland are in the EU and their goods etc are all tied into EU regulations and taxes etc so cannot cross soft borders into non-EU member countries without proper checks for which you need hard policed borders.

Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard', neither is Germany- Switzerland.

I think you need to read this, Duty.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44054594

Beautiful stuff. We can learn a lot from the Norway-Sweden border.

Norway's in the single market, did you miss that bit?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Norway's in the single market, did you miss that bit?

Not at all. Hence the earlier post - Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard',

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Norway's in the single market, did you miss that bit?

Not at all. Hence the earlier post - Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard',

And that takes us back to the fact that a deal has to be struck with the EU.

No, I'm sure they'll throw in access to the single market as a freebie because we've been so cooperative thus far.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Norway's in the single market, did you miss that bit?

Not at all. Hence the earlier post - Well the issue is actually more to do with the Single Market than it is with EU membership - I don't think the Norway-Sweden border is 'hard',

And that takes us back to the fact that a deal has to be struck with the EU.

Except that's not a fact, because it isn't a legal necessity.

A hard border only happens if someone wants it. And no one wants it, presently.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No, I'm sure they'll throw in access to the single market as a freebie because we've been so cooperative thus far.

Near-enough every country in the world has access to the Single Market!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36664857

It is a fact. The single market is part of the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en

So the UK would need to agree such a deal to be part of that single market. Those sorts of propositions were proposed in Westminster but rejected by the Tories.

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is a fact. The single market is part of the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en

So the UK would need to agree such a deal to be part of that single market. Those sorts of propositions were proposed in Westminster but rejected by the Tories.

But you don't need to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market, like Norway. Hence why this is an issue about the single market, not EU v non-EU.

Post-Brexit, the UK will not be a member of the Single Market, but will have access to it. And, no, you do not need a trade deal to access the Single Market.

You do however need to be compliant with the single market when transporting goods across the border, hence it isnt an open border

I admire the patience on display here.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is a fact. The single market is part of the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en

So the UK would need to agree such a deal to be part of that single market. Those sorts of propositions were proposed in Westminster but rejected by the Tories.

But you don't need to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market, like Norway. Hence why this is an issue about the single market, not EU v non-EU.

Post-Brexit, the UK will not be a member of the Single Market, but will have access to it. And, no, you do not need a trade deal to access the Single Market.

Any deal would need top be negotiated with Ireland. Ireland are in the EU and tied into their regs so cannot open up borders into the EU without say so from the EU.

I cannot believe you are still clinging to fantasy. The UK government are either the most incompetent one it has ever elected to have over-looked a solution you propose or they realise, rightly so, it is not legally possible.

GSC wrote:You do however need to be compliant with the single market when transporting goods across the border, hence it isnt an open border

I haven't said anything to the contrary.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:It is a fact. The single market is part of the EU.

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/single-market_en

So the UK would need to agree such a deal to be part of that single market. Those sorts of propositions were proposed in Westminster but rejected by the Tories.

But you don't need to be a member of the EU to be a member of the Single Market, like Norway. Hence why this is an issue about the single market, not EU v non-EU.

Post-Brexit, the UK will not be a member of the Single Market, but will have access to it. And, no, you do not need a trade deal to access the Single Market.

Any deal would need top be negotiated with Ireland. Ireland are in the EU and tied into their regs so cannot open up borders into the EU without say so from the EU.

I cannot believe you are still clinging to fantasy. The UK government are either the most incompetent one it has ever elected to have over-looked a solution you propose or they realise, rightly so, it is not legally possible.

What deal are you possibly referring to? I'm not talking about trade deals. I'm talking about how goods will be managed across borders. As mentioned earlier, the UK and Ireland have already signed a deal guaranteeing citizens' rights to move between the two countries.

CaledonianCraig wrote:...I cannot believe you are still clinging to fantasy...

I can.