2019 World Snooker Championship Thread

[CaledonianCraig]

First topic message reminder :

The Crucible is alive again to the sound of cues smashing into the cueball for the 2019 Snooker World Championship.

On Day One the champion Mark Williams got off to a steady start to lead Martin Gould 6-3. Ding Junhui also leads 6-3 against Anthony McGill and Neil Robertson is home and hosed leading debutant Cypriot Georgiou 9-0.

[CaledonianCraig]

For whatever reason ROS seems unable to perform at his best in the Worlds - that may seem a strange comment considering he has won it 5 times but in relation to his talent and longevity, he should have had more than 5 titles.

I can only assume that it is the pressure of the Worlds that he struggles with.

Other 'Triple crown' events such as the UK champs and Masters pale in comparison to the World Championships, any snooker fan knows it and ROS knows it.

All great players are ultimately judged on world titles above any other measure when it comes to evaluating their careers and ROS in my opinion struggesl to handle the pressure of the crucible.

That is why, for me, having watched Hendry in his pomp, he will always be the GOAT, Ronnie may be more talented but Hendry was a winning machine and imperious under the greatest pressure that only the crucible can create

The Worlds are a test not only of potting but also of mental endurance and stamina in the mental department. That is where Ronnie falls short of the likes of Davis and Hendry. Players at The Crucible raise their game so if you aren't on your game mentally you head home and Ronnie has done that many times against lesser players.

[CaledonianCraig]

Bingham goes into the mid-session interval 3-1 up on Graeme Dott.

[CaledonianCraig]

Cahill just missing more chances now and the door is opened to Ronnie to pull this back to 7-8.

[CaledonianCraig]

And Cahill passes up another half-chance after a Ronnie miss and Ronnie is back to trailing by one frame. Cahill leads 8-7.

[CaledonianCraig]

The next frame is massive here. If Ronnie takes it I can see Cahill capitulate. Cahill must somehow win this frame.

[B.A. BARACUS]

Ronnie seems to play quicker when under pressure, it's almost as if he wants to play the shot before the nerves overcome him.

Hendry's clearance against Jimmy White in the 94 world champs final frame was a tremendous display of mental fortitude.

All players feel the pressure of the worlds and by no means do i consider ROS a bottler. Many people consider Jimmy White a serial choker but that is doing him a bit of a disservice in my opinion.

Jimmy missed the black in 94 but he's not the first to miss balls when under the greatest of pressure, Hendry himself missed a couple of sitters in his final frame loss to Ebdon in 2002.

[CaledonianCraig]

Ronnie has been fed hope and he has woken up. He pulls it level at 8-8. As Cahill dips, Ronnie has upped his game. Ronnie has now gone favourite to win the match.

[B.A. BARACUS]

Cahill seems composed and in control of his game, if he goes 9-8 up, i expect ROS to buckle and gift it to the young buck

[CaledonianCraig]

Cahill at the table on a break of 40 with the balls nicely spread. How's your bottle James?

[CaledonianCraig]

He breaks down on a break of 62 and Ronnie has the chance to steal.

[B.A. BARACUS]

If ROS pinches the frame here, he will go a very strong favourite...is he up to it?

[CaledonianCraig]

And Ronnie misses the pink. A reprieve for Cahill - perhaps but the pink looks to have gone safe.

[CaledonianCraig]

Slack safety on the pink from Ronnie leaves the pink on. But Cahill needs to do lots to get on the black.

[B.A. BARACUS]

Could see the miss coming from ROS, he looks like he is not relishing the battle and i fully expect him to chuck in the towel in the next frame

[CaledonianCraig]

Tough black to take the frame and Cahill nicks it. He leads 9-8. Incredible frame.

[B.A. BARACUS]

On a side note, i wish Mcmanus would stop calling the shot prematurely, that was a poor safety from ROS yet mcmanus was lauding it whilst the balls were still running and then swiftly corrected himself

[CaledonianCraig]

On a side note, i wish Mcmanus would stop calling the shot prematurely, that was a poor safety from ROS yet mcmanus was lauding it whilst the balls were still running and then swiftly corrected himself

Yes I thought the commentary was out of sync or something.

Slack safety from Cahill gifts a great chance to Ronnie to level.

[CaledonianCraig]

Ronnie on a break and on splitting the pack knocks a red in. Cahill back at the table but 40 points adrift. Good chance though to seal the match here.

[CaledonianCraig]

That was a mighty tough last red to take on and Cahill gets it. The amateur is onto the colours and Ronnie is facing an exit.

[CaledonianCraig]

Cahill wins 10-8. A first round exit for Ronnie and the GOAT debate is over.

[88Chris05]

Well played James Cahill. Surely the biggest shock in Crucible history. Really held himself together well with that pressure black to go 9-8, and then a brilliant break in the final frame to get over the line, particularly that brown to get position on the last red.

O'Sullivan's head just wasn't there, it was like watching those Ebdon and Dott losses in 2005 and 2006 respectively. Who knows what the reasons were, but he looked uninterested throughout the match and made some very, very odd shot selections.

But regardless of that, what a result.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well played James Cahill. Surely the biggest shock in Crucible history. Really held himself together well with that pressure black to go 9-8, and then a brilliant break in the final frame to get over the line, particularly that brown to get position on the last red.

That last red was even better shot for me. Immense. Well played to him.

[B.A. BARACUS]

Cahill wins 10-8. A first round exit for Ronnie and the GOAT debate is over.

Absolutely - the whole number of 'Triple Crown' events won in evaluating the GOAT is nonsense.

Up until a few years ago, the term triple crown did not even exist in the terminology of snooker, now they are classed as majors in the same vein as tennis and golf, however the majors in tennis and golf etc are all classed as equal in terms of prestige - that is not the case with the triple crown events in snooker.

The worlds has and always will be head and shoulders above all other events, including the UK champs and Masters, so counting them as equal is ridiculous.

[Duty281]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

[CaledonianCraig]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

[Duty281]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

[CaledonianCraig]

On the other table Stuart Bingham handing out a thrashing to Graeme Dott and leads 6-1.

[CaledonianCraig]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

Hmm so by your yardsticks Tiger Roll is a better national horse than Red Rum?

Andy Murray is a better Wimbledon champ than Federer?

Lewis Hamilton is a better F1 champion than Michael Schumacher?

He's somewhat washed up at The Crucible given he last won there in 2013. Surprising given that he is playing numpties (Ronnie's own words for fellow pros). Ronnie has never had what Davis and Hendry had - dominance. GOATs dominate - it is a trait of theirs in any sport. Ronnie has never had that dominant streak in him even in this era of numpties.

I have no doubt he's the most talented player to ever pick up a cue but like a Top Trump card weigh up other facets of his game and he falls short. It is a sport not just about century breaks but about mental stamina and strength and in that department he falls some way short of Davis and Hendry.

[88Chris05]

It's a bit daft to write off O'Sullivan's GOAT claims on the basis of one match. Hendry lost 9-0 to Marcus Campbell when he was still close to his peak - is that really any less ignominious than O'Sullivan's loss today, just because Campbell wasn't an amateur?

O'Sullivan now holds more records than Hendry (or Davis, for that matter) - but Hendry still holds the most important single record. Does the world title record alone outweigh all the others (most ranking titles, most UKs and Masters, most centuries, most 147s, more than twenty-five years between first and last major titles etc.) together? Maybe, but I don't think it's cut and dried, especially if you take in to consideration the general acceptance that O'Sullivan plays the game to a higher standard than Hendry did, and his winning head-to-head record against Hendry during their careers (although it is interesting to note that O'Sullivan didn't get in front in head-to-head matches until 2001-02, and it was still pretty much dead even until 2003-04). The standard of play during O'Sullivan's pomp across the tour has also been higher than the standard Hendry was facing in the nineties - I don't think anyone would seriously argue against this.

As long as Hendry still has the record of most Crucible crowns, he'll have a claim to the top spot and I can understand why he's still plenty of people's pick. But I think O'Sullivan, at the very least, got on equal terms with him back in 2013-14, and has since surpassed him. He's kept winning tournaments and maintained a winning record against guys like Trump, Selby, Higgins, Robertson, Ding etc. well in to his late thirties and early forties, whereas Hendry won only a few of the smaller ranking titles past his thirtieth birthday, and no Worlds, Masters or UKs after that age. I appreciate that, by his own admission, his motivation and focus waned a little after winning his seventh world title to go past Davis, but if you're going to allow him too much leeway there then you have to do likewise for O'Sullivan - and most Hendry fans I know are never interested in hearing any excuses about frame of mind or motivation when we talk about reasons why O'Sullivan hasn't matched that title haul yet.

If the trophy count gap was bigger across their overall careers, which it looked like it might end up being between 2009 and 2012 when O'Sullivan seemed to be drifting away from the game a little, then I'd be inclined to say that O'Sullivan just didn't have the record on paper, even if he was clearly the best pure player ever. But with just as many ranking titles as Hendry now, more UKs and Masters, his longevity, his greater ability and break-building and his positive head-to-head record against all the guys I've mentioned above, I'd say O'Sullivan has won enough to offset that world title deficit. I think O'Sullivan deserves that crown now, but I accept that Hendry's claim is still valid.

[eirebilly]

Well done Cahill.

Ronnie, in my mind, is the most talented player to pick up a snooker cue. I would hate to hear him not show respect to Cahill here and make it all about himself not being in the right mood...

[CaledonianCraig]

It's a bit daft to write off O'Sullivan's GOAT claims on the basis of one match. Hendry lost 9-0 to Marcus Campbell when he was still close to his peak - is that really any less ignominious than O'Sullivan's loss today, just because Campbell wasn't an amateur?

O'Sullivan now holds more records than Hendry (or Davis, for that matter) - but Hendry still holds the most important single record. Does the world title record alone outweigh all the others (most ranking titles, most UKs and Masters, most centuries, most 147s, more than twenty-five years between first and last major titles etc.) together? Maybe, but I don't think it's cut and dried, especially if you take in to consideration the general acceptance that O'Sullivan plays the game to a higher standard than Hendry did, and his winning head-to-head record against Hendry during their careers (although it is interesting to note that O'Sullivan didn't get in front in head-to-head matches until 2001-02, and it was still pretty much dead even until 2003-04). The standard of play during O'Sullivan's pomp across the tour has also been higher than the standard Hendry was facing in the nineties - I don't think anyone would seriously argue against this.

As long as Hendry still has the record of most Crucible crowns, he'll have a claim to the top spot and I can understand why he's still plenty of people's pick. But I think O'Sullivan, at the very least, got on equal terms with him back in 2013-14, and has since surpassed him. He's kept winning tournaments and maintained a winning record against guys like Trump, Selby, Higgins, Robertson, Ding etc. well in to his late thirties and early forties, whereas Hendry won only a few of the smaller ranking titles past his thirtieth birthday, and no Worlds, Masters or UKs after that age. I appreciate that, by his own admission, his motivation and focus waned a little after winning his seventh world title to go past Davis, but if you're going to allow him too much leeway there then you have to do likewise for O'Sullivan - and most Hendry fans I know are never interested in hearing any excuses about frame of mind or motivation when we talk about reasons why O'Sullivan hasn't matched that title haul yet.

If the trophy count gap was bigger across their overall careers, which it looked like it might end up being between 2009 and 2012 when O'Sullivan seemed to be drifting away from the game a little, then I'd be inclined to say that O'Sullivan just didn't have the record on paper, even if he was clearly the best pure player ever. But with just as many ranking titles as Hendry now, more UKs and Masters, his longevity, his greater ability and break-building and his positive head-to-head record against all the guys I've mentioned above, I'd say O'Sullivan has won enough to offset that world title deficit. I think O'Sullivan deserves that crown now, but I accept that Hendry's claim is still valid.

Good post.

However, to be acclaimed as a GOAT you have to be top at everything and in the mental department Ronnie falls well down the ladder. I have never sat through a Davis or Hendry match and watched them lose against journeymen or players with not their degree of talent when they were in their prime to the regularity that Ronnie has. Ronnie has done and lost against the likes of Carter, Bingham, Dott and now Cahill at The Crucible. Like I said too many underplay the mental side of the sport and how important a facet that is to have. Ronnie lacks there and explains why he has 5 world titles to Hendry's 7. Centuries scored means Jack in the grand scheme of things as Marco Fu has more centuries than Davis but no way would you say Fu was better. There are other such anomalies using that as a yardstick too.

[Duty281]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

Hmm so by your yardsticks Tiger Roll is a better national horse than Red Rum?

Andy Murray is a better Wimbledon champ than Federer?

Lewis Hamilton is a better F1 champion than Michael Schumacher?

He's somewhat washed up at The Crucible given he last won there in 2013. Surprising given that he is playing numpties (Ronnie's own words for fellow pros). Ronnie has never had what Davis and Hendry had - dominance. GOATs dominate - it is a trait of theirs in any sport. Ronnie has never had that dominant streak in him even in this era of numpties.

I have no doubt he's the most talented player to ever pick up a cue but like a Top Trump card weigh up other facets of his game and he falls short. It is a sport not just about century breaks but about mental stamina and strength and in that department he falls some way short of Davis and Hendry.

Silly flippancy. I'm not saying World titles count for nothing, but they're not the only factor that goes into consideration. Although, yes, Tiger Roll is a better horse than Red Rum (the former's two wins at Cheltenham were arguably more outstanding than his GN wins), and Lewis Hamilton will likely have a greater career record than Schumacher if things continue.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about dominance. O'Sullivan has won 75% of his snooker matches as a professional, versus Hendry's 69%. Added to that, more triple crown titles, and will almost certainly end up with more ranking titles. Plus O'Sullivan has been at the top of snooker for, pretty much, a quarter of a century (the odd blip here and there) - a longevity that far exceeds what Hendry achieved in the game.

The only metric where Hendry comes out on top v O'Sullivan is world title wins. And it is undeniable that O'Sullivan plays in a tougher era than Hendry did. Virtually every other metric, O'Sullivan is on top. That's why most make him the GOAT. And ROS still isn't finished yet.

[eirebilly]

I think people may have short memories with regards to Hendry. Hendry was one of the most attacking players on the tour back in his prime.

I also don't agree with the argument that the competition was easier for Hendry either. The styles of players were completely different back then. Hendry played players that were far more mentally stronger, who offered up nothing, than the players that Ronnie has. Ronnie has always struggled against mentally strong match playing snooker players whereas Hendry did not. The players of Ronnies era were/are far more risk takers and as such offer up far more opportunities.

As much as snooker is about individual talent, it is also about mental strength. I would say that Ronnie has the more talent but Hendry the more mental strength. I think they both have a genuine claim (as well as Davis) to be the GOAT.

[CaledonianCraig]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

Hmm so by your yardsticks Tiger Roll is a better national horse than Red Rum?

Andy Murray is a better Wimbledon champ than Federer?

Lewis Hamilton is a better F1 champion than Michael Schumacher?

He's somewhat washed up at The Crucible given he last won there in 2013. Surprising given that he is playing numpties (Ronnie's own words for fellow pros). Ronnie has never had what Davis and Hendry had - dominance. GOATs dominate - it is a trait of theirs in any sport. Ronnie has never had that dominant streak in him even in this era of numpties.

I have no doubt he's the most talented player to ever pick up a cue but like a Top Trump card weigh up other facets of his game and he falls short. It is a sport not just about century breaks but about mental stamina and strength and in that department he falls some way short of Davis and Hendry.

Silly flippancy. I'm not saying World titles count for nothing, but they're not the only factor that goes into consideration. Although, yes, Tiger Roll is a better horse than Red Rum (the former's two wins at Cheltenham were arguably more outstanding than his GN wins), and Lewis Hamilton will likely have a greater career record than Schumacher if things continue.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about dominance. O'Sullivan has won 75% of his snooker matches as a professional, versus Hendry's 69%. Added to that, more triple crown titles, and will almost certainly end up with more ranking titles. Plus O'Sullivan has been at the top of snooker for, pretty much, a quarter of a century (the odd blip here and there) - a longevity that far exceeds what Hendry achieved in the game.

The only metric where Hendry comes out on top v O'Sullivan is world title wins. And it is undeniable that O'Sullivan plays in a tougher era than Hendry did. Virtually every other metric, O'Sullivan is on top. That's why most make him the GOAT. And ROS still isn't finished yet.

Dominance at The Crucible - the mecca of snooker.

Davis and Hendry both had it. Ronnie has not. His world titles have been a more sporadic stretch. And in your opinion it is a better era. Really? I am reading up on the hype that snooker needs Ronnie. That says a lot less for the other players kicking around in the sport just now. I never once heard that being rolled out in the Davis and Hendry era. Like I said in any case GOAT's dominate and Ronnie has never dominated at The Crucible. Sure he's not finished yet but next year it will be a seven year gap to when Ronnie won his last world title and looking at his last few Crucible showings you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would back him to win another two world titles in his mid 40s.

[No name Bertie]

It is said that Alex Higgins, Jimmy White and Ronnie O'Sullivan were (are) the most naturally gifted snooker players.   Jimmy White says he spent most of his snooker career on recreational drugs and would have won hundreds (exagerated) of world titles if he had kept his nose clean.

I think GOAT debates are in general only useful up to a point.  I prefer a chronological multi-dimensional approach.  Many players had bigger influences on their sport than simply winning titles - in terms of showing new ways of playing the game that others followed or responded to in some other way.  The game develops and evolves.  Ronnie O'Sullivan has well known mental issues that required him to seek help.  Steve Davis and Hendry were built differently.

Ronnie O'Sullivan greatest achievement seems to have been his ability to build big breaks - a skill for which he is generally recognised to have been better than Davis and Hendry.   Players folllowing O'Sullivan have learnt from him - so that break building in the game has improved.  Judd Trump seems to be great at building breaks - but has yet the major trophies that accompany that.

[Duty281]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

Hmm so by your yardsticks Tiger Roll is a better national horse than Red Rum?

Andy Murray is a better Wimbledon champ than Federer?

Lewis Hamilton is a better F1 champion than Michael Schumacher?

He's somewhat washed up at The Crucible given he last won there in 2013. Surprising given that he is playing numpties (Ronnie's own words for fellow pros). Ronnie has never had what Davis and Hendry had - dominance. GOATs dominate - it is a trait of theirs in any sport. Ronnie has never had that dominant streak in him even in this era of numpties.

I have no doubt he's the most talented player to ever pick up a cue but like a Top Trump card weigh up other facets of his game and he falls short. It is a sport not just about century breaks but about mental stamina and strength and in that department he falls some way short of Davis and Hendry.

Silly flippancy. I'm not saying World titles count for nothing, but they're not the only factor that goes into consideration. Although, yes, Tiger Roll is a better horse than Red Rum (the former's two wins at Cheltenham were arguably more outstanding than his GN wins), and Lewis Hamilton will likely have a greater career record than Schumacher if things continue.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about dominance. O'Sullivan has won 75% of his snooker matches as a professional, versus Hendry's 69%. Added to that, more triple crown titles, and will almost certainly end up with more ranking titles. Plus O'Sullivan has been at the top of snooker for, pretty much, a quarter of a century (the odd blip here and there) - a longevity that far exceeds what Hendry achieved in the game.

The only metric where Hendry comes out on top v O'Sullivan is world title wins. And it is undeniable that O'Sullivan plays in a tougher era than Hendry did. Virtually every other metric, O'Sullivan is on top. That's why most make him the GOAT. And ROS still isn't finished yet.

Dominance at The Crucible - the mecca of snooker.

Davis and Hendry both had it. Ronnie has not. His world titles have been a more sporadic stretch. And in your opinion it is a better era. Really? I am reading up on the hype that snooker needs Ronnie. That says a lot less for the other players kicking around in the sport just now. I never once heard that being rolled out in the Davis and Hendry era. Like I said in any case GOAT's dominate and Ronnie has never dominated at The Crucible. Sure he's not finished yet but next year it will be a seven year gap to when Ronnie won his last world title and looking at his last few Crucible showings you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would back him to win another two world titles in his mid 40s.

It's not really a factor for me. Would O'Sullivan's world titles be any more impressive if he won five in a row? For me, no. Likewise, I wouldn't regard Hendry or Davis' hauls any less if they were more sporadic. There's plus points for both of them. I don't regard Williams' three crowns as lesser than Selby's just because the latter collected his over a four year spell.

And yes, it is a much better era now and has been for the last decade and a half. Like all professional games, Snooker is in the business of continual improvement. O Sullivan might be 'needed' but this is purely due to personality and his attacking play - there's plenty of other strong players who aren't deemed to be as 'exciting' (Higgins/Selby/Bingham etc.). I personally reckon O'Sullivan will win at least one more world title before he calls it quits.

[CaledonianCraig]

Wow, possibly the greatest snooker upset of them all. Certainly the greatest I've ever seen.

Flashes of brilliance from both of them, but ROS was garbage for the most part, in his I-don't-give-a-toss mode. He doesn't seem to have the will, presently, to win the 70-odd frames you need to win the Worlds.

Bit silly to say the 'GOAT' debate is over, though, seeing as how O'Sullivan's career hasn't even finished yet! ROS has achieved more than Davis+Hendry in snooker (more 147s, more century breaks, more ranking tournament wins, more triple crown wins, greater longevity) with the exception of World title wins...and it still isn't beyond ROS to equal or even overhaul Hendry's total in that department.

Anyway, Cahill wasn't exceptional, but he played far better than his ranking indicates. I expect Maguire to beat him in the next round, but hopefully this will be the catalyst for Cahill to launch his pro career (again).

I make Trump the strong favourite to win the title, now. Draw has really opened up for him.

I never saw Davis or Hendry beaten by an amateur. The nirvana of any sport is world titles and Ronnie last won the titles in 2013. He ain't getting any younger and the faculties fade more each year so where is Ronnie going to suddenly find two world titles from? Century breaks are no mark of GOATness. Take a look on all-time list of centuries scored and high up on the list you'll find players who have not even won a single world title. The world championship is the true yardstick of greatness and it is Hendry 7 O'Sullivan 5 so not even relatively close yet.

It would be immensely foolish to write off O'Sullivan. He's not some washed up professional, scrabbling desperately for wins. He's still a player at the top-level who won the UK Championship a few months back. He's still capable of winning the greatest prize of them all.

Your measure of most World title wins = the GOAT may be your yardstick, but others take different factors into account, hence why there's no definitive answer. Some have Hendry as the GOAT, a few Davis, others O'Sullivan.

Hmm so by your yardsticks Tiger Roll is a better national horse than Red Rum?

Andy Murray is a better Wimbledon champ than Federer?

Lewis Hamilton is a better F1 champion than Michael Schumacher?

He's somewhat washed up at The Crucible given he last won there in 2013. Surprising given that he is playing numpties (Ronnie's own words for fellow pros). Ronnie has never had what Davis and Hendry had - dominance. GOATs dominate - it is a trait of theirs in any sport. Ronnie has never had that dominant streak in him even in this era of numpties.

I have no doubt he's the most talented player to ever pick up a cue but like a Top Trump card weigh up other facets of his game and he falls short. It is a sport not just about century breaks but about mental stamina and strength and in that department he falls some way short of Davis and Hendry.

Silly flippancy. I'm not saying World titles count for nothing, but they're not the only factor that goes into consideration. Although, yes, Tiger Roll is a better horse than Red Rum (the former's two wins at Cheltenham were arguably more outstanding than his GN wins), and Lewis Hamilton will likely have a greater career record than Schumacher if things continue.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about dominance. O'Sullivan has won 75% of his snooker matches as a professional, versus Hendry's 69%. Added to that, more triple crown titles, and will almost certainly end up with more ranking titles. Plus O'Sullivan has been at the top of snooker for, pretty much, a quarter of a century (the odd blip here and there) - a longevity that far exceeds what Hendry achieved in the game.

The only metric where Hendry comes out on top v O'Sullivan is world title wins. And it is undeniable that O'Sullivan plays in a tougher era than Hendry did. Virtually every other metric, O'Sullivan is on top. That's why most make him the GOAT. And ROS still isn't finished yet.

Dominance at The Crucible - the mecca of snooker.

Davis and Hendry both had it. Ronnie has not. His world titles have been a more sporadic stretch. And in your opinion it is a better era. Really? I am reading up on the hype that snooker needs Ronnie. That says a lot less for the other players kicking around in the sport just now. I never once heard that being rolled out in the Davis and Hendry era. Like I said in any case GOAT's dominate and Ronnie has never dominated at The Crucible. Sure he's not finished yet but next year it will be a seven year gap to when Ronnie won his last world title and looking at his last few Crucible showings you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would back him to win another two world titles in his mid 40s.

It's not really a factor for me. Would O'Sullivan's world titles be any more impressive if he won five in a row? For me, no. Likewise, I wouldn't regard Hendry or Davis' hauls any less if they were more sporadic. There's plus points for both of them. I don't regard Williams' three crowns as lesser than Selby's just because the latter collected his over a four year spell.

And yes, it is a much better era now and has been for the last decade and a half. Like all professional games, Snooker is in the business of continual improvement. O Sullivan might be 'needed' but this is purely due to personality and his attacking play - there's plenty of other strong players who aren't deemed to be as 'exciting' (Higgins/Selby/Bingham etc.). I personally reckon O'Sullivan will win at least one more world title before he calls it quits.

We'll agree to disagree.

I am sat here just now and am wondering whether this could finally be Ding's year?

[CaledonianCraig]

This afternoon's matches see David Gilbert resume leading Joe Perry 6-3.

Judd Trump starts his campaign against Thailand's Thepchaiya Un-Nooh.

[CaledonianCraig]

Trump off to a good start to lead 1-0.

[CaledonianCraig]

Thepchaiya Un-Nooh levels at 1-1. And David Gilbert leads Joe Perry 7-3 now and looks good for a place in the second round.

[88Chris05]

I am sat here just now and am wondering whether this could finally be Ding's year?

I really hope so. I've been wanting him to land the big one for years now, but I'm not quite sure his form this year has been good enough to give me (or him, more importantly) confidence that he can beat the real top dogs over a long, four-session match if / when he gets to the latter stages of the tournament. I'd love to be wrong on that score, but I think last year was his big chance and he's maybe a little off the pace in terms of being ready this year. That said, it could work to his advantage.

Now O'Sullivan is out, Robertson might be a dark horse for a second title. Seems odd to call him a dark horse or an underdog, as he's won it before and can legitimately be called one of the great players - but his record at the Crucible since winning it is strangely very poor. I think he has a bit of a mental block against O'Sullivan on the big stage, though, so Ronnie being out so early might give him an extra boost. A lot of fanfare has quite rightly surround Trump this season, as he's had a lot of success and seems to be maturing and looking ready to finally win here...But Robertson has quietly gone about winning regularly again (crazy to think he was out of the top sixteen a couple of years back) and might never get a better chance to win a second title.

[CaledonianCraig]

A very good clearance from Thepchaiya Un-Nooh to steal the frame and leads Trump 2-1. Joe Perry has pulled back a frame but still trails Gilbert 7-4.

[CaledonianCraig]

Thepchaiya Un-Nooh leads Judd Trump 3-2 and David Gilbert edges closer to victory as he leads 8-5.

[Duty281]

Odds for the Championship (BET365):

Robertson 11/4; Trump 4/1; Selby 11/2; Wilson, Higgins, Bingham 14/1; Williams, Ding, Allen 16/1...then the rest. I think any of those are in with a legitimate chance, with the possible exception of Selby who has really struggled over the last year.

I make Trump the frontrunner, but it's quite an open tournament. Ding's year? Could well be, but it's been a while since his last ranking event win.

[CaledonianCraig]

Thepchaiya Un-Nooh is maintaining his slender advantage and leads 4-3. Joe Perry still fighting away and has closed it to a frame deficit. David Gilbert leads 8-7.

[CaledonianCraig]

Thepchaiya Un-Nooh is taking a stranglehold on this match as he takes a 6-3 lead into the second session against Judd Trump. David Gilbert now a frame away from victory leading Joe Perry 9-7.

[CaledonianCraig]

David Gilbert has beaten Joe Perry 10-7 to reach the second round.

[CaledonianCraig]

This evening should be straight forward for Stuart Bingham who leads Graeme Dott 8-1. Mark Allen starts his tournament against Chinese debutant Zhou Yuelong.

[CaledonianCraig]

Dott with a break of 114 but Bingham still leads 8-2. All about pride just now.

[CaledonianCraig]

Dott aiming to make the score more respectable takes the second frame of the evening but trails 8-3.

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