Brexit

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Tea anyone?

My mistake confidence and supply.

Soul Requiem wrote:My mistake confidence and supply.

Might be legal, in the broad sense, but everyone knows what he's doing here with the DUP, including you. Simply another example of how our political system isn't anywhere near fit for purpose.

What a throwaway attitude some People have to a Govt using hard earned Tax Payers money to bribe a minority NI Party for votes..

Yep.. Shrug the shoulders to Voter suppression...Bribery...Protesters having their democrat rights violated...A rigged Public Broadcaster that pumps out Tory propaganda 24/7..

'It's only Politics.. Just a game folks'

No wonder the UK is going to the dogs..Dangerous times as the UK becomes more like a Banana Republic every day.

Over three years on from the EU referendum and it is looking like Britain is heading towards a brexit with some cobbled together and rather rushed brexit deal.  

The question is what could have Labour done differently?  

For those that hoped that Brexit would not happen (and maybe still hope) - surely you couldn't pin your hopes on the Conservatives preventing Brexit - given the EU referendum was on their 2015 manifesto and Brexit was on their 2017 manifesto.  

What I have been looking for is what Labour could have done.  During this period they seem to have been ineffectual - it has been the Conservative Party versus the Parliament show, not the Conservative Party versus Labour Party show.  In the May 2019 EU election - where was Labour?  Only the Lib. Dems appeared to be presenting a strong remain position.

My feeling is if Johnson gets Britain out of the EU with some sort of deal, it would be fait accompli.  

Then come a general election people would be voting for a government that would have to make a go of things for Britain in a post-Brexit reality.  Under such circumstances will the Labour vote plummet?  It seems to me people would return to the Conservatives in order to make things work rather than Labour that for all I know will run about like headless chickens trying to renegotiate an entry back into the EU.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What a throwaway attitude some People have to a Govt using hard earned Tax Payers money to bribe a minority NI Party for votes..

Yep.. Shrug the shoulders to Voter suppression...Bribery...Protesters having their democrat rights violated¹...A rigged Public Broadcaster that pumps out Tory propaganda 24/7..²

'It's only Politics.. Just a game folks'

No wonder the UK is going to the dogs..Dangerous times as the UK becomes more like a Banana Republic every day.

Agreed in general, but...

¹That's what you get when you go too far I'm afraid. Screw them if they're going to block roads, stick themselves to planes etc and generally **** up other people's lives when they're trying to go about their business.

²Yeah, right. This from the broadcaster that's always castigated for being too leftish.

The problem is the tw4t leading Labour wants Brexit. He's been happy to facilitate it at all times over the last 3 years other than when under the severest pressure from his MPS

Labour are chasing the hard leave voting northern constituencies, trying to pacify the centrist remain vote and failing miserably at both

They're not Brexity enough for the Brexit party / right wing tory vote and they've infuriated all but the most committed Corbynites

Hope Johnson never said he wouldn't allow a division down the Irish Sea at any point, he'd look very silly right now

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1184463451688722432?s=21

This was all so foreseeable. He's evidently learnt nothing from Theresa May's experience of repeating absolutes that she eventually had to go back on. This chancer clearly has no qualms about lying, about telling an audience what it wants to hear regardless of whether he believes it or whether it's deliverable.

The day was always going to come when Brexiters would be even more furious with him than they were with May.

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:What a throwaway attitude some People have to a Govt using hard earned Tax Payers money to bribe a minority NI Party for votes..

Yep.. Shrug the shoulders to Voter suppression...Bribery...Protesters having their democrat rights violated¹...A rigged Public Broadcaster that pumps out Tory propaganda 24/7..²

'It's only Politics.. Just a game folks'

No wonder the UK is going to the dogs..Dangerous times as the UK becomes more like a Banana Republic every day.

Agreed in general, but...

¹That's what you get when you go too far I'm afraid. Screw them if they're going to block roads, stick themselves to planes etc and generally **** up other people's lives when they're trying to go about their business.

²Yeah, right. This from the broadcaster that's always castigated for being too leftish.

Indeed.

If those Extinction Rebellion idiots really cared so much about climate change, they'd do something useful like go and plant some trees, or something. Instead all they do is screw up thousands of people's lives on a daily basis. Have to wholeheartedly agree with whoever called them virtue-signalling, attention-seekers. I've yet to see or hear a single one of them actually state what they expect the government to do.

They should be banned from EVERYWHERE.

Theres a difference between peaceful protest and being a public nuisance.

In any case, climate change is a global problem that goes far beyond what any single government is capable of achieving.


I've also never really understood why so many people think the BBC is biased, either one way, or the other. I listen to 5 Live a fair bit and watch Question Time when I can. While individual shows may be loaded one way or the other, overall I think they give fair air time to both sides.

BamBam wrote:Hope Johnson never said he wouldn't allow a division down the Irish Sea at any point, he'd look very silly right now

https://twitter.com/adambienkov/status/1184463451688722432?s=21

Bit premature, no?

We don't know what the final deal will be...even assuming one can be agreed on in time.

Plus its pretty obvious such a deal wouldn't pass a vote - regardless of the fact the Remainer Parliament would vote ANY deal down anyway, both to prevent Brexit (even in name only) and to give themselves more ammunition for a General Election.

I'm just hoping Johnson ignores the idiotic Benn Act and we end up with an actual Brexit - i.e. no customs union or single market crap.

What kind of lunatic would want to be a member of an organisation and subject to its rules, with absolutely NO say in how those rules are formulated, or implemented?


Everything Parliament has done, ever since Gina Miller brought the case to force the government to put Brexit to a vote, has been designed to box the government in and leave them with no way out, other than to abandon Brexit. Yet they cry foul when the government looks for ways out of said box. Such blatant double standards, its hilarious.

What kind of lunatic would leave a club and expect the club to change its core principles to accommodate the leaving member?

Gina Miller brought the case to force the government to respect Parliamentary sovereignty. You know, the thing Brexit was meant to bring about, make our own laws and all that jazz. Or was it just for blue passports?

True, we don't know what the "final" deal is yet, but unless every political reporter is wrong (entirely possible I suppose), the NI only backstop sounds like the outcome. The same outcome that Theresa May said no British PM could ever accept, and Johnson promised no division down the Irish sea

I too hope Johnson ignores the "idiotic Benn Act", with the vain hope that he ends up in a cell for doing so

See the Police watchdog has asked for the Police to stop investigating the Johnson-Arcuri affair.....Must have some Tory plants on there..

Banana republic and all that..

So Johnson has a deal and the EU have ruled out Extension.........Now it is time for the Maths...

DUP against.....So he is looking at needing 15-20 Labour....

Could be close.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So Johnson has a deal and the EU have ruled out Extension.........Now it is time for the Maths...

DUP against.....So he is looking at needing 15-20 Labour....

Could be close.

There seems to be some debate over that - not whether Juncker's suggested it, but whether it's a matter of fact.

Any Labour MP who votes for that deal is a spineless spiv

So expect it to fly through

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So Johnson has a deal and the EU have ruled out Extension.........Now it is time for the Maths...

DUP against.....So he is looking at needing 15-20 Labour....

Could be close.

The EU havent ruled out an extension, Juncker has said that with this deal there would be no need for an extension. Its still a council decision whether to grant an extension or not if we asked for one.

Generally found this chap to be one of the most sensible and succinct Brexit commentators

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/10/17/saturday-is-the-most-important-day-in-the-entire-brexit-saga

You may or may not have seen a story about the legality of the proposed agreement.

Apparently last year some 'bright sparks' lead by Rees Mogg managed to get an act through parliament that stated something along the lines that NI could not be under a different regulatory system from the rest of the UK. In other words NI cannot be in the CU when the rest of the UK is not.

Legal action is underway.

Those Labour mps wanting to be candidates at the next GE will only vote for it if they think it can pass......Won't risk losing the whip or being triggered otherwise.....

Be a three line whip..

But there are 5/6 retiring at the next GE that may think what the heck..

DUP is a blow for Johnson.....Much depends if any 'pure ERG" like Francois add to the numbers of Labour mps he needs..

Isn't this deal the same as the May deal, only less Brexit-y?

Pr4wn wrote:Isn't this deal the same as the May deal, only less Brexit-y?

They finally managed to negotiate the EU into accepting something the EU proposed in the first place.

This deals already as dead as a dodo, and Johnson wont be too far behind it.

Enough Labour mps are voting for it apparently...

Deal is favourite...Mainly because the spineless Labour leadership refuse to take the whip off these people.

Joke.

It’s gonna go through. I can’t see how Labour are letting this happen, it has got to be a death knell for them. Either that or they’re so confident the Lib Dem voters are there for their Remain stance that they think getting this done means they can take those back?

The government is thus far refusing to release risk assessments for the UK if this is the deal. How can any wavering MP vote blind like that? Although surely the refusal to release risk assessments tells MPs everything they need to know about what they would contain.

15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The government is thus far refusing to release risk assessments for the UK if this is the deal. How can any wavering MP vote blind like that? Although surely the refusal to release risk assessments tells MPs everything they need to know about what they would contain.

I head that Javid said something along the lines that it was so obvious the deal will be marvelous that no risk assessment is necessary.

Now the greatest sadness of all is that even if an assessment was done and published the majority of MP's would never bother to read it and just follow their leadership like nice little sheep.

It really is just staggering. This is not about remain or leave. It is about good govenance, good project management, good practice. They are proposing the biggest changes to the UK for generations and yet there is to be no scrutiny on what it actually means.

Quick poll before tomorrow:
a) What do you want to happen in parliament regarding this deal and Brexit in general?
b) What do you think will happen?

a) I am a pessimistic Remainer - will be out on the big demo in London tomorrow nevertheless with the little ones to make our voices heard.  I would like a majority in parliament for this deal (or the May deal) to be put to the people in a Referendum.  Its such a momentous decision and the 2016 referendum did not ask voters what type of arrangement outside the EU they wanted.  
b) As above, I am pessimistic from a Remain perspective.  I think Johnson's deal will squeak through by 2 or 3 votes on the back of opposition MPs (worth noting that 2 Lib Dem MPs are likely to vote for the deal - its not just Labour rebels who want to back it).  I daren't predict what will happen in Northern Ireland - I do fear the proposed arrangement can lead to a reignition of the Troubles sparked off by angry Unionists - but hope I'm wrong.

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

He is the leader of the opposition......18 Lib Dem Mps don't tell a Party of 250 who is their leader..

Simple as.

I can see this getting voted through tomorrow.

As I understand it this is merely the Withdrawal Agreement so many MP's regardless of party will feel there will be enough wriggle room thereafter to make the deal more palatible when talks begin on the much finer details. That little fact could sway enough people to vote for it.

Not so much the wriggle room......more to do with People are tired of Brexit 24/7 and want to move on...

Can't say I blame them but this deal is as crap as the last one by all accounts..

"Be careful what you wish for" Springs to mind..........Johnson will have upped and gone by the time the UK properly goes to turd..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not so much the wriggle room......more to do with People are tired of Brexit 24/7 and want to move on...

Can't say I blame them but this deal is as crap as the last one by all accounts..

"Be careful what you wish for" Springs to mind..........Johnson will have upped and gone by the time the UK properly goes to turd..

Oh don't get me wrong it is wholly a crap deal. Loved one of the MP's description of it yesterday as May's Deal in a blond wig. Sums it up perfectly.

The wriggle room I speak of being that the finer details have not been discussed yet. Lets say it gets voted through and no doubt a General Election follows pretty quickly then there is that chance that Labour would have their chance to shape the trade deals etc to their liking.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

He is the leader of the opposition......18 Lib Dem Mps don't tell a Party of 250 who is their leader..

Simple as.

Round and round in circles. Yes he's the LOTO. No he won't get enough support to lead a GNU without the ex tory independent MP's regardless of what the Lib Dems do. Swinson is just spelling it out. Labour are using it as a route to attack the Lib Dems who they see as a huge threat.

It is not like Swinson is demanding that she be the leader of the GNU. A compromise could be found, but that depends on Labour not the Lib Dems.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

He is the leader of the opposition......18 Lib Dem Mps don't tell a Party of 250 who is their leader..

Simple as.

Yet another example of why our political system is complete and utter scheisse. The idea that you should be whipped to vote as the Party Thought Police say is contemptible, and always should have been. What f***ing moron thinks that overall party politics ever, really, equates to being a representative of the constituency voters that put the f***ers there????

https://unbound.com/books/brexit/

What exactly is the DEAL?

Will Britain still be in the EU common market? Will UK citizens rights in the EU be protected?

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

He is the leader of the opposition......18 Lib Dem Mps don't tell a Party of 250 who is their leader..

Simple as.

Yet another example of why our political system is complete and utter scheisse. The idea that you should be whipped to vote as the Party Thought Police say is contemptible, and always should have been. What f***ing moron thinks that overall party politics ever, really, equates to being a representative of the constituency voters that put the f***ers there????

It comes down to an age old argument - did people vote for the individual or the party? There used to be a saying that labour could put a donkey up for election in the welsh valleys and he would get elected.

I imagine it is fairly split tbh

And in the case of those who voted for the party, not the individual, should that individual not follow the party whip

Caroline Lucas:

"It looks like a huge con on the British people because, if the vote succeeds, it will take us into a short transition period - giving people the completely false impression that there will be no impact on living standards, or workers' rights and consumer protections outside the EU.

"Boris Johnson will doubtless use this opportunity to try to win an election and put in power a hard-right government which will then run down the clock to the end of the transition period so we end up leaving with no deal."

Well...whatever will be....Will be.

Have a good weekend folks..

Apparently ERG MPs have sought assurances from the attorney general that it would be legal for the UK to leave without a deal at the end of the transition period.

If that's not enough to persuade Labour MPs not to back the deal....

Ladbrokes

Deal goes through in Parliament tomorrow - evens. Deal gets rejected - 8/11.

I think it will fall short by a few votes, but obviously wouldn’t be surprised at either outcome. BBC currently has it at 303-301 in favour of the deal, but with 35 MPs still undecided.

Big weekend coming up

Here's hoping Australia beat England, Ireland beat New Zealand, Japan beat South Africa, Wales beat France and Johnson's EU deal gets voted down

Have a good one folks

Afro wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:15 rebels are letting it happen..

Why the whip should go.

If Swinson had said she would back Corbyn for temp Leader there could have been a VONC and extension..

But no playing politics.

Its not Swinson who was playing politics here. It was Corbyn.

The independents are never ever going to support Corbyn but they could support a compromise candidate. It's that simple. Swinson has said as much and therefore is enemy no.1 for Labour.

He is the leader of the opposition......18 Lib Dem Mps don't tell a Party of 250 who is their leader..

Simple as.

Yet another example of why our political system is complete and utter scheisse. The idea that you should be whipped to vote as the Party Thought Police say is contemptible, and always should have been. What f***ing moron thinks that overall party politics ever, really, equates to being a representative of the constituency voters that put the f***ers there????

It comes down to an age old argument - did people vote for the individual or the party? There used to be a saying that labour could put a donkey up for election in the welsh valleys and he would get elected.

I imagine it is fairly split tbh

And in the case of those who voted for the party, not the individual, should that individual not follow the party whip

I get that, but the reality in our system is MPs are representatives of their constituents. If someone votes for them because of the Party they represent, I get that (especially with the scheisse electioneering we're subjected to these days), but they're mistaken in what they're doing, or should be doing, really aren't they?

Steffan wrote:Big weekend coming up

Here's hoping Australia England beat England Australia, Ireland beat New Zealand, Japan beat South Africa, Wales France beat France Wales and Johnson's EU deal gets voted down

Have a good one folks

Joking aside, hope the games are good and nothing controversial decides them .

You may well get the Australia England beat England Australia and Wales France beat France Wales results

I also hope that no controversy decides an outcome of any match. I am hoping the teams I want to win won't leave it that close to be honest

Dreading the EU vote. If this deal gets through I might not even be in the mood for the rugby

Duty281 wrote:Ladbrokes

Deal goes through in Parliament tomorrow - evens. Deal gets rejected - 8/11.

I think it will fall short by a few votes, but obviously wouldn’t be surprised at either outcome. BBC currently has it at 303-301 in favour of the deal, but with 35 MPs still undecided.

I hope authorities are keeping a close eye on any unusual betting occurring in and around political families, relatives and fwends..........
Because basically I think a good bunch of them ( who have direct influence on betting outcomes) would be more interested in making some handy money on the side than concentrating on a real solution to Brexit.

A momentous day, I fear it.

SkyBet 4/6 it passes

1/2 now. Important to remember that even if it does pass today, it won’t be the end. Just the beginning of an entirely new process.

And that’s before the amendments happen!