Brexit

by **JuliusHMarx** Thu 29 Aug 2019, 9:39 am

First topic message reminder :

Tea anyone?

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:11 pm

BamBam wrote:Can't believe there's a woman who fancies her mouth on either end, but there probably are!

At least whichever sad sack is busy giving red bars to the last few comments would be more than happy to oblige being stitched to Johnson's arse

Maybe it's Dominic Cummings.

by BamBam Wed 09 Oct 2019, 2:29 pm

Impossible, Cummings would insist on Johnson's face being stitched to HIS arse

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:26 am

There's been mouth(pieces) taking s*** from Johnson's a*** for a long time

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 10 Oct 2019, 9:30 am

Doesn't matter who's stitched to whose arse in this case, scheisse comes out of both ends of the lot of them.

by TRUSSMAN66 Fri 11 Oct 2019, 9:02 am

While the Press paint Johnson as Churchill again...Seems to be a reluctance from them to ask what he has caved in on..

I imagine we are going to have Claudius proclaimed a hero for the same kind of deal...May was a 'surrendering traitor' for serving up..

Good old Press...Never ever surprise you..

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 11 Oct 2019, 10:31 am

I guess it's going to be a Northern Ireland-only backstop. I don't know how else you avoid border infrastructure in Ireland, which is the main sticking point. It'll be very interesting how he spins this (if that's what it is) given what he's said before about the 'precious union' and leaving the EU as one united kingdom.

On the topic of Northern Ireland, the Telegraph has a nice piece about it today. (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/10/northern-ireland-burden-rest-uk-cant-let-get-way-brexit/) Strange unionists, these!

by BamBam Fri 11 Oct 2019, 10:50 am

Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 11 Oct 2019, 11:10 am

There was - and still is - unquestionably an element of protest vote to Leave. A desire to give 'the establishment' a bloody nose. It's 'f*ck you, I won't do what you tell me', but unfortunately not the song.

No doubt there's a number of people in the UK who have always wanted out of the EU, for various reasons, but nowhere near 17.4 million people. You'll have seen the graph showing how few searches for 'EU' there were on Google before they spiked in 2016. It wasn't the big issue of our time.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 11 Oct 2019, 11:42 am

The other thing to say that I'm sure millions of people genuinely do feel left out / left behind in this country. But they've been convinced that the cause of all their troubles is the EU. I despise everyone who's promoted and encouraged that misconception, especially those who actually are part of the 'establishment', who are far more responsible for the state of this country than any 'Brussels bureaucrat' could ever hope to be, and who stand to profit from this exploitation.

by lostinwales Fri 11 Oct 2019, 12:22 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The other thing to say that I'm sure millions of people genuinely do feel left out / left behind in this country. But they've been convinced that the cause of all their troubles is the EU. I despise everyone who's promoted and encouraged that misconception, especially those who actually are part of the 'establishment', who are far more responsible for the state of this country than any 'Brussels bureaucrat' could ever hope to be, and who stand to profit from this exploitation.

Yes. The great con. The long time abusers persuade their victims that there is someone else to blame and therefore the abusers should get more powers.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 1:13 pm

BamBam wrote:Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

You were doing OK until this last bit. The reasons so many voted to leave are not something you or I are going to really understand, but suggesting they're thick as the over-riding reason is just feeding into the problem and asking for something similar to happen in a future vote.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 1:15 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The other thing to say that I'm sure millions of people genuinely do feel left out / left behind in this country. But they've been convinced that the cause of all their troubles is the EU. I despise everyone who's promoted and encouraged that misconception, especially those who actually are part of the 'establishment', who are far more responsible for the state of this country than any 'Brussels bureaucrat' could ever hope to be, and who stand to profit from this exploitation.

by MrInvisible Fri 11 Oct 2019, 1:53 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
BamBam wrote:Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

You were doing OK until this last bit. The reasons so many voted to leave are not something you or I are going to really understand, but suggesting they're thick as the over-riding reason is just feeding into the problem and asking for something similar to happen in a future vote.

But the options for future relationship with EU with all the complexities that brings is beyond the comprehension of many, therefore reducing it to a binary issue in referendum was not a good idea. That said I do feel we need a follow up referendum to get us out of the hole we're in and validate the decision-making process on Brexit. The 'skill' if you want to call it that of the leave campaign was to turn it into a vote on whether 'there are too many immigrants' and this type of campaign was always likely to prove successful at a time when the news was full of images of refugees trying to enter europe. Many leave voters were not thinking about the type of trading relationship we would have with our European neighbours, but rather 'I want less immigrants in the country (regardless of whether they actually regularly encounter immigrants in their locality)'.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:02 pm

I don’t for a minute believe this should have been a public vote. On questions of pure emotion, maybe, but not something like this

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:17 pm

And remember how vague Brexit was during the campaigning. What's your complaint? Brexit will cure it! It was a free for all. Future generations will be amazed that there was no control or fact-checking, and will probably use the whole thing as a cautionary tale.

by BamBam Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:28 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
BamBam wrote:Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

You were doing OK until this last bit. The reasons so many voted to leave are not something you or I are going to really understand, but suggesting they're thick as the over-riding reason is just feeding into the problem and asking for something similar to happen in a future vote.

I'm not saying leave voters are thick, I'm saying the electorate as a whole isn't smart enough to make any kind of rational decision. That goes for remain and leave, it should never have been a straight in out question when no one had any idea of what the outcomes would involve

by Steffan Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:32 pm

BamBam wrote:I'm not saying leave voters are thick

I agree. Not all Leave voters are thick. I know some rather smart Leave voters actually and I respect their opinion even though I disagree with it

Every thick bigoted person that I know certainly voted Leave though

"Leeve meens leeve" "OUT OUT OUT" "Stop thos imigrunts comin ere"

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:37 pm

It must be wild for seemingly rational Leave voters to have to deal with the thick ones. I suppose they may sympathise with football fans who were demonised for years as thugs cos of a loud minority

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:43 pm

There's nothing wrong with wanting the UK to leave the EU, nothing at all - we're not obliged to be members. What is wrong is to deny or downplay the negative consequences of leaving, and to tell people that there's nothing but upside.

Hello David Davis, is that you?

by BamBam Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:50 pm

"Not all leave voters are bigoted racists, but all bigoted racists voted leave" pretty much sums it up

by Steffan Fri 11 Oct 2019, 2:52 pm

2016 - "The EU will give us an amazing deal as they need us more than we need them"

2017 - "We haven't got an amazing deal yet but all in good time"

2018 - "We still haven't got an amazing deal yet because we have a treacherous remoaner negotiating it"

Early 2019 - "Once a decent Leaver gets in charge we will get that amazing deal"

Late 2019 - "We never wanted a deal anyway. It was never on the ballot paper"

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:10 pm

MrInvisible wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
BamBam wrote:Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

You were doing OK until this last bit. The reasons so many voted to leave are not something you or I are going to really understand, but suggesting they're thick as the over-riding reason is just feeding into the problem and asking for something similar to happen in a future vote.

But the options for future relationship with EU with all the complexities that brings is beyond the comprehension of many, therefore reducing it to a binary issue in referendum was not a good idea. That said I do feel we need a follow up referendum to get us out of the hole we're in and validate the decision-making process on Brexit. The 'skill' if you want to call it that of the leave campaign was to turn it into a vote on whether 'there are too many immigrants' and this type of campaign was always likely to prove successful at a time when the news was full of images of refugees trying to enter europe. Many leave voters were not thinking about the type of trading relationship we would have with our European neighbours, but rather 'I want less immigrants in the country (regardless of whether they actually regularly encounter immigrants in their locality)'.

Fair enough, but a binary decision was always going to be the easiest to contemplate at the ballot box; they should have explored the preferred options to go up against 'remain' long before actually conducting the referendum itself.
BamBam (and others) should turn their ire on the politicians for conducting ****ing awful campaigns for too long and, over decades, producing an electorate that's generally ill-informed on issues and also rarely cares when elections arrive. Hard to see this sort of thing changing when, in general, our political class are career shysters and greasy pole climbers with few apparent morals and/or interest in what's best for the citizens of the U.K. Our political system is a mess, from top to bottom.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:13 pm

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I don’t for a minute believe this should have been a public vote. On questions of pure emotion, maybe, but not something like this

Probably not, if only because this was a plebiscite bit of democracy going against our normal parliamentary 'democracy'. Trouble is, the vast majority don't trust the careerist, self-centred, nest-feathering politicians we have to put up with (in the main) in the Commons, so I don't think they'd have swallowed a decision on something this big as made by Parliament. Also, that ****, Cameron, said the country would have a referendum - hard to put that genie back once he'd uttered the words.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:14 pm

BamBam wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
BamBam wrote:Two Brexit conversations that tell so much of the story of why we are where we are

First a conversation with a friend of a friend over some drinks yesterday where she confidently told the group that she and a large chunk of her immediate group of friends voted to leave to "see whether it would happen, and whether the government was a fix" - challenged as to what she would do now in a second vote "I don't know, probably vote to leave again because that's what I did last time"

Secondly the bint on Question Time who told everyone she knew exactly what she was voting for, but that no one knew what would happen when we left. Makes complete sense
https://twitter.com/marieannuk/status/1182534552767647745?s=12

This decision should never have been placed in the hands of an electorate so dismally incapable of rational thought

You were doing OK until this last bit. The reasons so many voted to leave are not something you or I are going to really understand, but suggesting they're thick as the over-riding reason is just feeding into the problem and asking for something similar to happen in a future vote.

I'm not saying leave voters are thick, I'm saying the electorate as a whole isn't smart enough to make any kind of rational decision. That goes for remain and leave, it should never have been a straight in out question when no one had any idea of what the outcomes would involve

Agreed, but this has been brewing for decades and there was ample time to discuss/debate the pros/cons of being in the EU and also what the plan would be if we voted to leave before actually asking the Country the question in a referendum.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:18 pm

BamBam wrote:"Not all leave voters are bigoted racists, but all bigoted racists voted leave" pretty much sums it up

The simple fact that, I think, that egotistical bum wipe, Will Self, said this is enough to make it utter scheisse. It may actually even be true (but I doubt it), but this sort of comment is perpetuating what contributed to the vote outcome in the first place and a failure to understand what caused Brexit means our politics etc will never sort itself out.

by TwisT Fri 11 Oct 2019, 3:59 pm

Most peculiar thing I heard after the Will Self comment is "Remainers are racist too, as they are racist against the English that voted leave"

I think what she was trying to get at is that Remainers are unpatriotic.

It is playing into Leave's hands when comments like that by Self are said. For example, there is nothing wrong with being worried about immigration and it doesn't make you racist. I cringed when he said it. I know what he was getting at but it is just stupid point scoring.

I am friends with Leavers and Remainers that are perfectly sane and do not have nazi flags in their cupboards, nor scream in terror when the national anthem is being played.

I think how people voted can be summed up by Patrick Moore....."We just don't know". Hence for the most part you go with gut instinct and sound bites

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 11 Oct 2019, 4:42 pm

Will Self knew exactly what he was saying and what he was implying (even if he denied it) about the motivations of 'leave' voters. He's no better than Trump in saying something and then, when challenged, says that it wasn't what he meant and the listeners have misunderstood what he said.

You'd have thought, having said it immediately post-referendum when it might have been understandable in a heat-of-the-moment disappointed-with-referendum-outcome moment, he would/should have known better than to regurgitate it ~3 years later - what's he hoping to achieve? The fact he's repeated it illustrates why he's not as clever as he thinks he is. Insufferable, smug b*stard.

by No name Bertie Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:16 pm

So what are peoples thoughts on the likelihood of the following occurring:
a) Brexit no deal Oct. 31
b) Brexit with a deal Oct. 31.
c) Delay with no general election - then Brexit before end of year.
d) Delay with general election with an opportunity to stop Brexit.

Is d) the only way to stop Brexit? What are the chances of a, b or c occurring?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:27 pm

Delay...A50 extension and no Brexit or GE at the end of the year..

by TwisT Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:31 pm

I think it will be c), with some kind of EU/UK ceremonial press conference saying it is actually b) but they are tying up the loose ends/admin work.

I think a) is the least likely

And I am fearful what the consequences will be if d) happens. You are basically electing the government on their Brexit position and nothing more. Could potentially, but maybe unlikely, lead to a Brexit party v Lib Dem shoot out.

by **Afro** Mon 14 Oct 2019, 1:41 pm

d) but not to try and stop Brexit.

Boris will continue to push for an early election to try and restore some of the lost majority. Once any extension is assured/done, then the opposition parties have no excuse not to agree.

I would be amazed if the election wasn't this year. If it isn't, then it will be very early next year

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 14 Oct 2019, 2:13 pm

If the government manage to find a way around the Benn act, and take the UK out of the EU without a deal on 31st October, opposition parties need to fight their instincts and not back a general election.

This has to be on the Tories' watch. The risk of agreeing to an election in the immediate aftermath of a no-deal Brexit is that the Tories can explain away the chaos as teething problems - and they might be successful.

Keep them in office for a good while. Make them own it.

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Oct 2019, 2:35 pm

Wow......All these businesses are going to leave because of less red tape in the EU...The Treasury kitty will be decimated and yet Claudius is promising money for everybody and everything...

I believe him... Rolling Eyes

by lostinwales Mon 14 Oct 2019, 5:37 pm

The big worry for me is the whole 'promise Brexit will be no deal and therefore worst EVER' making any kind of deal better and more likely to get through parliament, despite being a complete load of 'ordure' and being very bad for the country.

Reminds me of the old way they managed closing a huge number of coal pits. They started by saying they'd close them all, after which only closing most of them seemed like a good deal.

by BamBam Tue 15 Oct 2019, 4:37 pm

Sounds like we're getting the Brexit deal that "no British Prime Minister could ever accept"

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 15 Oct 2019, 5:43 pm

Customs border down the Irish sea will go down like a pool of sick.....

by Samo Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:10 am

FT reporting Johnson has offer the DUP Billions (with an S) to vote for his Brexit deal. The actual number isnt clear but its said to be way more than what May gave them.

At what point does this become corruption and criminal?

by No name Bertie Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:16 am

Does anyone have the breakdown for NI for the 2016 EU Referendum- including sectarian breakdown.

My impression is that Boris Johnson is doing everything to ensure he gets some sort of brexit deal for Oct 31 or near to the date (along lines of Twist's comment above). Whether it is beneficial to the UK seems subsidiary to getting a deal with the EU done.

by Soul Requiem Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:17 am

Samo wrote:FT reporting Johnson has offer the DUP Billions (with an S) to vote for his Brexit deal. The actual number isnt clear but its said to be way more than what May gave them.

At what point does this become corruption and criminal?

At what point does funding a country in the united kingdom become corrupt? Doh

by **Afro** Wed 16 Oct 2019, 8:39 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Samo wrote:FT reporting Johnson has offer the DUP Billions (with an S) to vote for his Brexit deal. The actual number isnt clear but its said to be way more than what May gave them.

At what point does this become corruption and criminal?

At what point does funding a country in the united kingdom become corrupt?

When the funding is solely I return for vote support and not because that is the best use of the funds available

by TwisT Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:21 am

The more this goes on, the more I believe the way around the Benn act, save face for Johnson and leave with a deal is both EU/UK to say a deal has been agreed in principle before/on the 31st and they are just doing the paperwork so need a bit more time. MPs get to vote on it after 31st but in all intents and purposes, we are "out".

That way if MPs do vote it down, then Johnson has ammunition to say he and EU has done all it can, in the allotted time frame, and it is Parliament once again putting the boot in. Only way to resolve it is a GE, as the Tories could not just change leader again (like this happened last time with May's deal).

EU might want to do all it can to get a brilliant deal for itself, but I don't think it wants to risk a GE, so will do the utmost to get a deal done. I think they fear if it does go to a GE and it looks like they have been far too bullish and uncompromising, it might push voters to the Brexit Party.

by Soul Requiem Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:22 am

Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Samo wrote:FT reporting Johnson has offer the DUP Billions (with an S) to vote for his Brexit deal. The actual number isnt clear but its said to be way more than what May gave them.

At what point does this become corruption and criminal?

At what point does funding a country in the united kingdom become corrupt?

When the funding is solely I return for vote support and not because that is the best use of the funds available

I'm still struggling to see where the corruption is?

by Samo Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:24 am

Soul Requiem wrote:
Afro wrote:
Soul Requiem wrote:
Samo wrote:FT reporting Johnson has offer the DUP Billions (with an S) to vote for his Brexit deal. The actual number isnt clear but its said to be way more than what May gave them.

At what point does this become corruption and criminal?

At what point does funding a country in the united kingdom become corrupt?

When the funding is solely I return for vote support and not because that is the best use of the funds available

I'm still struggling to see where the corruption is?

Of course you are.

by Soul Requiem Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:25 am

Do explain then Samo how a UK government can be corrupt by spending money on infrastructure in a country in the UK?

by Samo Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:41 am

Because as had already been pointed out to you, offering money for no other reason than votes in parliament is corrupt.

Giving NI money for infrastructure and investment is fine. Saying “you’ll only get this money if you support me in parliament” isnt.

by Soul Requiem Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:44 am

It's called supply and demand which is perfectly legal as you well know, the crux of the matter is that you don't benefit from the spending so don't like it. You're falling into the trap of thinking the DUP and Northern Ireland are one and the same.

by Samo Wed 16 Oct 2019, 9:50 am

So if this is the best way to spend that money why does it come with the caveat of “only if you vote with me in parliament?”

by **Pr4wn** Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:12 am

Soul Requiem wrote:It's called supply and demand which is perfectly legal as you well know, the crux of the matter is that you don't benefit from the spending so don't like it. You're falling into the trap of thinking the DUP and Northern Ireland are one and the same.

You appear to be confused as to the meaning of "supply and demand".

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:13 am

(Never mind)

by BamBam Wed 16 Oct 2019, 10:14 am

Think he's got it bang on ....

DUP demand cash for their votes and the UK taxpayer supplies it

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