Lennox Lewis vs the Greats Part one

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Lennox Lewis vs Muhammad Ali

Muhammad Ali although the greatest heavyweight of all time never faced a boxer who was as good as Lennox Lewis who had the power, jab, adaptability and boxing skills to match anyone. Foreman hit harder than Lewis but didn’t have the boxing skills to beat Ali and win the tactical exchange but he would struggle with an intelligent boxer like Lewis. Ali would win rounds against Lewis with his speed and combinations but I think Lewis would get the better off him with his pistol like jab while landing right hands and uppercuts. Ali’s granite chin and heart sees him to the finish whilst taking the most punishment in his career but Lewis takes a close decision.

I have these two as my Top 2 Heavyweights of all-time. I certainly believe that Lennox could beat Ali but I favour Muhammad to come out on top in a series of fights.

I'd like to see Lennox come in between 235 to 240lbs, as that weight gave him the size and the movement. Lennox had decent speed overall but at times came into fights too heavy - 240 was the perfect weight for him.

OK maybe i shouldn't of used Frazier as obviously didn't get the time line right. Just think 3 years and not exactly an abundance of good names there, can not be considered that dominant.

Although the Listons fights are better than anything Lewis' has had, he did have quantity over quality, not by his own fault. And i tend to think time and number of wins makes some one more dominant, rather than looking good over fewer fights. Ali might of gone on to have had more defences, and been easily more dominant, but he didnt.

Dominance is beating your nearest rivals which Ali did and Lewis didn't do

Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

WelshDevilRob wrote:I have these two as my Top 2 Heavyweights of all-time. I certainly believe that Lennox could beat Ali but I favour Muhammad to come out on top in a series of fights.

I'd like to see Lennox come in between 235 to 240lbs, as that weight gave him the size and the movement. Lennox had decent speed overall but at times came into fights too heavy - 240 was the perfect weight for him.

Rob, on what basis is Lennox a top two heavyweight? Genuinely interested how you make that decision? Don't get me wrong, I have him in the top 10, but somewhere near the other end and can't find any justification for him as a top 2.

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

I have Lewis as the best heavyweight of the 90's by some distance but don't see how he can be seen as more dominant than Ali when he did lose twice during his best years against poor opposition

Yes, Lennox had a great quantity of defences, AdZacO, but we need to be careful about overrating quantity. The Ali of the 60s made nine successful defences of his title, while after beating Foreman in 1974, Ali made 10 successful defences before losing to Spinks.

However, there is no doubt about which version of Ali was the more dominant. In the 70s, Ali had to endure a life or death struggle with Frazier, was in quite serious difficulty at one point against both Lyle and Shavers and, in the opinion of many, was given blatant gift decisions against both Norton and Young. In the 60s, I doubt whether Ali lost many more than about eight rounds in total during his entire nine-defence run. Now, that's dominance.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dominance is beating your nearest rivals which Ali did and Lewis didn't do

So if Haye beat Wlad and then Vitali, would he then be dominant? As i wouldnt say he was as he wouldnt of reign for long, but he would of beaten all his rivals.

AdZacO wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dominance is beating your nearest rivals which Ali did and Lewis didn't do

So if Haye beat Wlad and then Vitali, would he then be dominant? As i wouldnt say he was as he wouldnt of reign for long, but he would of beaten all his rivals.

There's more than two heavyweights out there for Haye to face though

Just find it strange to consider Lewis utterly dominant when he lost twice and didn't face his biggest rivals

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:I have these two as my Top 2 Heavyweights of all-time. I certainly believe that Lennox could beat Ali but I favour Muhammad to come out on top in a series of fights.

I'd like to see Lennox come in between 235 to 240lbs, as that weight gave him the size and the movement. Lennox had decent speed overall but at times came into fights too heavy - 240 was the perfect weight for him.

Rob, on what basis is Lennox a top two heavyweight? Genuinely interested how you make that decision? Don't get me wrong, I have him in the top 10, but somewhere near the other end and can't find any justification for him as a top 2.

A combination of Longevity, 'head to head' match-ups and quality of opposition. Granted some of the other names beat him in these criteria but I believe he has all three and compared to the others, except Ali, he gets my vote. I've had the same top 10 since the old five Live boards on the beeb.

I just don't believe fighters like Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano can beat Lewis and I don't see their records or opposition as better than his, so for me he rates higher than them. He may not beat Sonny Liston or George Foreman, due to styles, but he did more than him overall IMO.

I think, as the saying goes, that if Haye were to beat Wlad AND Vitali, he would bestride the division like a colossus. No-one would dispute his dominant position as number one, and there wouldn't be too many other contenders out there who haven't already been soundly spanked by one Klitschko or other.

Big if, mind.

AdZacO wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dominance is beating your nearest rivals which Ali did and Lewis didn't do

So if Haye beat Wlad and then Vitali, would he then be dominant? As i wouldnt say he was as he wouldnt of reign for long, but he would of beaten all his rivals.

Well, we could say the same for Lewis.

How long did he reign ( after receiving the title by default, ) before being upended by McCall ? Having recaptured the title, how long did he reign before being again upended, this time by Rahman ?

Ali, lest we forget, had his first title reign curtailed by events outside of the ring. The US government, in taking his title, achieved what no fighter had come remotely close to doing.

I see people going on about the mercer fight...Only reason why Mercer had success was because it was a small ring, think King tried to shaft Lewis there as well...Lets see How Ali would do in a small ring, he wouldn't be able dance away from his opponents.

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

The genius of PBF wrote:I see people going on about the mercer fight...Only reason why Mercer had success was because it was a small ring, think King tried to shaft Lewis there as well...Lets see How Ali would do in a small ring, he wouldn't be able dance away from his opponents.

Winner of the insane post of the day

Size of the ring now eh? Mercer had success against a guy who didn't run in his fights anyway?

Don't think i've ever heard of greatness being curtailed because the ring was the same size. Dear, dear me.

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Well he wasn't knocked out by either was he, strange comment

The genius of PBF wrote:I see people going on about the mercer fight...Only reason why Mercer had success was because it was a small ring, think King tried to shaft Lewis there as well...Lets see How Ali would do in a small ring, he wouldn't be able dance away from his opponents.

Lewis didn't look terribly comfortable against Holyfield, second time out, either, PBF. As to Ali, we gained some indication as to how he would fare in a smaller ring when he no longer had his legs during his second career.

[quote="WelshDevilRob"]

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:I have these two as my Top 2 Heavyweights of all-time. I certainly believe that Lennox could beat Ali but I favour Muhammad to come out on top in a series of fights.

I'd like to see Lennox come in between 235 to 240lbs, as that weight gave him the size and the movement. Lennox had decent speed overall but at times came into fights too heavy - 240 was the perfect weight for him.

Rob, on what basis is Lennox a top two heavyweight? Genuinely interested how you make that decision? Don't get me wrong, I have him in the top 10, but somewhere near the other end and can't find any justification for him as a top 2.

A combination of Longevity, 'head to head' match-ups and quality of opposition. Granted some of the other names beat him in these criteria but I believe he has all three and compared to the others, except Ali, he gets my vote. I've had the same top 10 since the old five Live boards on the beeb.

That's fair enough Rob if you are using this combination to justify it, but what about Larry Holmes then? He has longevity, a head to head with Lennox is incredibly difficult to split and I wouldn't say his level of opposition is worse than Lennox's either. But, it is a debate for another time and not really what the thread is about.

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Someone do something about this wum.

Lewis staggered into the referee pretty much, absolute 100% the right decision to stop it. To suggest otherwise is just another laughable attempt at a wum.

Give me strength

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Well he wasn't knocked out by either was he, strange comment

The Frazier knockdown was no more than a flash knockdown, and Ali saw the round out. Lewis was absolutely pole axed by McCall and Rahman. Different scenarios altogether.

Come on Coxy don't rise to the bait

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Someone do something about this wum.

Lewis staggered into the referee pretty much, absolute 100% the right decision to stop it. To suggest otherwise is just another laughable attempt at a wum.

Give me strength

Coming from someone who just b!tches about everything and always goes LOOKING FOR FIGHTS on a boxing forum. Why not produce another Khan WUM article and duck out of it again. No the referee disgracefully decided to stop it.

Good god people, we don't need this on every thread, now give it a rest

HumanWindmill wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Well he wasn't knocked out by either was he, strange comment

The Frazier knockdown was no more than a flash knockdown, and Ali saw the round out. Lewis was absolutely pole axed by McCall and Rahman. Different scenarios altogether.

Lewis wasn't given the same chance Ali did and I would say Frazier caught Ali pretty good didn't he. Lewis got pole axed by Rahman not Mccall didn't think he was hurt that much.

The genius of PBF wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Someone do something about this wum.

Lewis staggered into the referee pretty much, absolute 100% the right decision to stop it. To suggest otherwise is just another laughable attempt at a wum.

Give me strength

Coming from someone who just b!tches about everything and always goes LOOKING FOR FIGHTS on a boxing forum. Why not produce another Khan WUM article and duck out of it again. No the referee disgracefully decided to stop it.

It was the referee's call, PBF, and most agreed with it. You cannot rewrite history just to suit your argument. Besides, we're discussing dominance, here. Nobody decked Ali, or had him in any serious trouble, from the day he beat Liston to the day he was forced to surrender his title. Lewis twice lost his title by kayo.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Good god people, we don't need this on every thread, now give it a rest

It was going well till a certain poster tried to ruin the thread like he ruins the Mayweather and Pacquiao threads.

The genius of PBF wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Good god people, we don't need this on every thread, now give it a rest

It was going well till a certain poster tried to ruin the thread like he ruins the Mayweather and Pacquiao threads.

Drop it then, fairly sure no one really cares about the reasons behind it

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:Ali didn't get knocked out twice, either.

If your talking about the first Mccall fight when the referee disgracefully decided to stop it...We could then say Ali got knocked out by Henry Cooper and Fraizer.

Well he wasn't knocked out by either was he, strange comment

The Frazier knockdown was no more than a flash knockdown, and Ali saw the round out. Lewis was absolutely pole axed by McCall and Rahman. Different scenarios altogether.

Lewis wasn't given the same chance Ali did and I would say Frazier caught Ali pretty good didn't he. Lewis got pole axed by Rahman not Mccall didn't think he was hurt that much.

Given the same chance ?

Ali was up almost immediately against Frazier. Besides, that was 1971. My understanding is that we were discussing the Ali of the first Liston fight until his enforced layoff.

Thread locked for 10 minutes. Calm down please, people

I thought the Lennox stoppage in the McCall fight was unfair. The ref couldn't speak a word of English and was in Don King's pocket.

I've seen Holmes and Ali floored just as heavily but been given the chance to get back into the fight as they were the Heavyweight Champion and Lennox should have been given the same chance.

As for Rahman. No complaints there. Lennox took Rahman lightly and was busy acting as a film star on Ocean's 11 rather than getting acclimatised to the high Altitude of South africa. I believe Lennox turned up in SA a week before the fight which was an amateurish mistake. Chris Eubank said that he needed 6 weeks out there.

The Rahman rematch proved what a focused and fully trained Lennox could do as he gave a near faultless performance.

I thought the Lennox stoppage in the McCall fight was unfair. The ref couldn't speak a word of English and was in Don King's pocket.

Why did he need to speak a word of English when Lewis stumbled backwards, then forwards and was quite clearly on very very unsteady legs - to the point he was swaying around infront of the ref.

100% the correct decision to stop it. Were you one of the ones who were raging after Enzo was allowed to continue after getting decked and then having his senses re-arranged to the point we all thought he'd been killed? Lewis was in a bad bad way when the ref took a good hard look at him, can you answer me why a guy who's staggering around should be allowed to continue?

Just rewatched the Mccall knockout and think it was the right call, Lewis was staggering all over the place, fell into the ref and his legs buckled again compare that to Alis knockdown at the hands of Frazier where he bounces straight back up and is ready to go.

WelshDevilRob wrote:
I've seen Holmes and Ali floored just as heavily but been given the chance to get back into the fight as they were the Heavyweight Champion and Lennox should have been given the same chance.

C'mon, Rob.

Ali's legs never looked like jelly after a knockdown the way Lennox' did against McCall. We all know that Ali was out on his feet against Foreman a couple of times, but nobody knew it at the time. Lewis was in terrible trouble. In any event, Ali 'twixt the first Liston fight and his enforced layoff, ( which is the Ali we are discussing, ) was never dropped, so the comparison is moot.

coxy0001 wrote:

I thought the Lennox stoppage in the McCall fight was unfair. The ref couldn't speak a word of English and was in Don King's pocket.

Why did he need to speak a word of English when Lewis stumbled backwards, then forwards and was quite clearly on very very unsteady legs - to the point he was swaying around infront of the ref.

100% the correct decision to stop it. Were you one of the ones who were raging after Enzo was allowed to continue after getting decked and then having his senses re-arranged to the point we all thought he'd been killed? Lewis was in a bad bad way when the ref took a good hard look at him, can you answer me why a guy who's staggering around should be allowed to continue?

Because that guy is the British HW champ.

I agree with you coxy. Take out parochialism - there'd be no claims about a "bad stoppage decision". I was one of those who was mortified bout how slow the ref was in RJJ-Lebedev to et involved. I was also moritified that Enzo was allowed to take a few more blows. Same goes for Lewis. McCall put him out.

Always been a huge Lewis fan but to say he beats Ali is stretching it a bit.

The pre-ban Ali I feel would have been to quick on his toes and befuddled Lewis with his movement. Don't think he would have knocked Lennox out but would have racked up the points.

Post ban Ali would be a closer fight but feel he would still edge it. Anyone who could take Foreman's shots and bounce up on three after taking a flush Frazier left is a winner in my book.

Lewis was certainly the best of the 90's in my opinion though, but he was no Ali.

Would have to go along with the general feeling here - I've always felt the stoppage against McCall was justified and nothing's changed in that respect. Lewis got up at six, sure. But he then stumbled badly, continued to sway as the referee examined it and, even after the referee had declared the bout over and wrapped his arms around him, stumbled backwards yet again. His head may have cleared by the time of the stoppage (not I said MAY have) but he was clearly still on unsteady legs.

No Harry-hard luck, Don King conspiracy at all.

Think he is just winding up on the McCall stoppage, as Lewis staggered against the roped then ref while trying to show he could protect himslef.

coxy0001 wrote:

I thought the Lennox stoppage in the McCall fight was unfair. The ref couldn't speak a word of English and was in Don King's pocket.

Why did he need to speak a word of English when Lewis stumbled backwards, then forwards and was quite clearly on very very unsteady legs - to the point he was swaying around infront of the ref.

100% the correct decision to stop it. Were you one of the ones who were raging after Enzo was allowed to continue after getting decked and then having his senses re-arranged to the point we all thought he'd been killed? Lewis was in a bad bad way when the ref took a good hard look at him, can you answer me why a guy who's staggering around should be allowed to continue?

The smiling family photographs with Don King spoke volumes about the Mexican ref. Of course, you need someone who can speak the language. This wasn't a 4 round fight in Cancun but a fight between two English speakers in London. Makes perfect sense to have the ref being able to command the language.

Enoz Mac had a history of getting Ko'd and had already suffered heavy Ko's in pretty recent fights - Haye, Afolabi and Lebedev. Lennox was the undefeated Heavyweight Champion (WBC), so comparing him with Enzo or the situation seems way off the mark.

But his legs were completely gone

Regardless of whether or not we agree with the stoppage, ( I do, ) it's hardly the sign of a dominant champ to be pole axed in such a fashion and be left tottering around the ring like a new born foal, and then to be pole axed again by Rahman.

HumanWindmill wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:
I've seen Holmes and Ali floored just as heavily but been given the chance to get back into the fight as they were the Heavyweight Champion and Lennox should have been given the same chance.

C'mon, Rob.

Ali's legs never looked like jelly after a knockdown the way Lennox' did against McCall. We all know that Ali was out on his feet against Foreman a couple of times, but nobody knew it at the time. Lewis was in terrible trouble. In any event, Ali 'twixt the first Liston fight and his enforced layoff, ( which is the Ali we are discussing, ) was never dropped, so the comparison is moot.

Ali look gone against Henry Cooper and was as Angelo Dundee recently acknowldged on the Cooper tribute on the BBC recently.

With regards to Larry Holmes he was floored heavily by Renaldo Snipes and Earnie Shavers.

Tend to agree with Chris on this one is one of those fights that has developed a myth about it with the passage of time to suggest it was a disgraceful stoppage, it was anything but. Whilst fighters have been allowed to continue in worse conditions that does not mean they should have been, it is also true fighters have been stopped in far better shape than Lewis was. He was on unsteady legs and IMO can have no real complaints.

Time has allowed the myth to grow as people seek to explain away a very poor result as it fits the agenda of bigging Lewis' legacy. Is akin to Calzaghe's "robbery" of Reid, which at the time was nothing of the sort.

Under no circumstances would Ali have been stopped against Cooper, it was at the end of the round and the rules at the time permitted being saved by the bell which he was

WelshDevilRob wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:
I've seen Holmes and Ali floored just as heavily but been given the chance to get back into the fight as they were the Heavyweight Champion and Lennox should have been given the same chance.

C'mon, Rob.

Ali's legs never looked like jelly after a knockdown the way Lennox' did against McCall. We all know that Ali was out on his feet against Foreman a couple of times, but nobody knew it at the time. Lewis was in terrible trouble. In any event, Ali 'twixt the first Liston fight and his enforced layoff, ( which is the Ali we are discussing, ) was never dropped, so the comparison is moot.

Ali look gone against Henry Cooper and was as Angelo Dundee recently acknowldged on the Cooper tribute on the BBC recently.

With regards to Larry Holmes he was floored heavily by Renaldo Snipes and Earnie Shavers.

Ali got up against Cooper and walked to his corner. Of course, he was dazed, but he still walked to his corner. Lewis was all over the shop.

TWICE.

Besides, again, we were discussing their respective championship reigns. Ali was NEVER in serious trouble during his first nine defences of the title.

WelshDevilRob wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:

I thought the Lennox stoppage in the McCall fight was unfair. The ref couldn't speak a word of English and was in Don King's pocket.

Why did he need to speak a word of English when Lewis stumbled backwards, then forwards and was quite clearly on very very unsteady legs - to the point he was swaying around infront of the ref.

100% the correct decision to stop it. Were you one of the ones who were raging after Enzo was allowed to continue after getting decked and then having his senses re-arranged to the point we all thought he'd been killed? Lewis was in a bad bad way when the ref took a good hard look at him, can you answer me why a guy who's staggering around should be allowed to continue?

The smiling family photographs with Don King spoke volumes about the Mexican ref. Of course, you need someone who can speak the language. This wasn't a 4 round fight in Cancun but a fight between two English speakers in London. Makes perfect sense to have the ref being able to command the language.

Enoz Mac had a history of getting Ko'd and had already suffered heavy Ko's in pretty recent fights - Haye, Afolabi and Lebedev. Lennox was the undefeated Heavyweight Champion (WBC), so comparing him with Enzo or the situation seems way off the mark.

Your first part is potentially libellous and you've got zero proof whereas i've got a fighter staggering around the ring after being badly hurt and the ref being well within his right to stop it.

And way off the mark? So just because he's a champ he should be given extra room for recovering? I'm sorry - but where does it state that in the rules of boxing? The referee adjudged Lewis in no fit state to continue - and he ruddy well wasn't as he was stumbling around everywhere.

The comparison is that one wasn't allowed to continue and rightly so, the other was allowed to continue with an apparently similar level of daze and almost got killed. Lewis even stumbled after the fight was called off - he could barely stand up (like Enzo) and there was a very big chance he'd have got seriously hurt.

At what point do you think a guy should be stopped out of morbid curiosity? I mean we've got a guy who was knocked down badly, got to his feet and could barely stand up! Do you think Berbick should've been allowed to continue as he was busy stacking it round the ring like a guy who's sunk 20 pints of Stella on an empty stomach??!??!

Consensus was and still is that he was badly hurt, there's never been much debate about placing an asterisk next to that result as everyone accepted it was 100% the correct decision not to let him continue.

And please find me the rule where refs are supposed to let the "champ" continue and potentially put him in a place where he could get killed.

HumanWindmill wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:
I've seen Holmes and Ali floored just as heavily but been given the chance to get back into the fight as they were the Heavyweight Champion and Lennox should have been given the same chance.

C'mon, Rob.

Ali's legs never looked like jelly after a knockdown the way Lennox' did against McCall. We all know that Ali was out on his feet against Foreman a couple of times, but nobody knew it at the time. Lewis was in terrible trouble. In any event, Ali 'twixt the first Liston fight and his enforced layoff, ( which is the Ali we are discussing, ) was never dropped, so the comparison is moot.

Ali look gone against Henry Cooper and was as Angelo Dundee recently acknowldged on the Cooper tribute on the BBC recently.

With regards to Larry Holmes he was floored heavily by Renaldo Snipes and Earnie Shavers.

Ali got up against Cooper and walked to his corner. Of course, he was dazed, but he still walked to his corner. Lewis was all over the shop.

TWICE.

Besides, again, we were discussing their respective championship reigns. Ali was NEVER in serious trouble during his first nine defences of the title.

He was that badly gone that he made it to his feet unaided. Yes he was hurt but he could have continued. Would he have turned the fight around - we will never know as the history book shows a TKO Loss.

And 'Yes' we are discussing their reigns and not sure why your reminding others when your previous post is about Lewis being 'Poleaxed' in two fights without any regards to the rest of his career.

Him getting poleaxed twice were part of his title reigns perhaps?

WelshDevilRob wrote:

And 'Yes' we are discussing their reigns and not sure why your reminding others when your previous post is about Lewis being 'Poleaxed' in two fights without any regards to the rest of his career.

What on Earth do you mean by that, Rob ?

The question is simple. Was Ali of '64 - '67 a more dominant or less dominant champion than Lewis ?

Lewis' title reign was twice punctuated by kayo losses. Ali's wasn't.

That okay ?

He was that badly gone that he made it to his feet unaided

Berbick made it to his feet unaided before Mills Lane could it off - should he have been allowed to continue?

coxy0001 wrote:

He was that badly gone that he made it to his feet unaided

Berbick made it to his feet unaided before Mills Lane could it off - should he have been allowed to continue?

Bad comparison Berbick fell got back up fell got back up...Hardly the same thing isit.