Scotland WC Chat - Part Deux

by **LondonTiger** Tue 24 Sep 2019, 10:09 am

First topic message reminder :

RDW wrote:FORWARDS (23)

John Barclay (Edinburgh) – 71 caps; Rugby World Cup 2007 and 2011
Simon Berghan (Edinburgh) – 19 caps
Jamie Bhatti (Glasgow Warriors) – 13 caps
Magnus Bradbury (Edinburgh) – 7 caps
Fraser Brown (Glasgow Warriors) – 42 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Allan Dell (Edinburgh) – 22 caps
Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 3 caps
Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) – 19 caps
Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh) – 33 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Gary Graham (Newcastle Falcons) – 2 caps
Jonny Gray (Glasgow Warriors) – 51 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Stuart McInally (Edinburgh) – 27 caps
Willem Nel (Edinburgh) – 29 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Gordon Reid (London Irish) – 34 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh) – 10 caps
Sam Skinner (Exeter Chiefs) – 5 caps
Grant Stewart (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
Josh Strauss (Sale Sharks) – 22 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Blade Thomson (Scarlets) – uncapped
Ben Toolis (Edinburgh) – 18 caps
George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps
Hamish Watson (Edinburgh) – 25 caps
Ryan Wilson (Glasgow Warriors) – 43 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015

BACKS (19)

Darcy Graham (Edinburgh) – 4 caps
Nick Grigg (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
Chris Harris (Newcastle Falcons) – 8 caps
Adam Hastings (Glasgow Warriors) – 11 caps
Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) – 67 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
George Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
Pete Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 41 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Rory Hutchinson (Northampton Saints) – uncapped
Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps
Sam Johnson (Glasgow Warriors) – 4 caps
Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh) – 11 caps
Greig Laidlaw (Clermont Auvergne) – 71 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Sean Maitland (Saracens) – 40 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Byron McGuigan (Sale Sharks) – 8 caps
Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) – 24 caps
Henry Pyrgos (Edinburgh) – 27 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Finn Russell (Racing 92) – 44 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Tommy Seymour (Glasgow Warriors) – 50 caps; Rugby World Cup 2015
Duncan Taylor (Saracens) – 21 caps

World Cup Warmups

France V Scotland
Scotland V France
Georgia V Scotland
Scotland V Georgia

World Cup Fixtures

Ireland v Scotland
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Sunday 22nd September 2019
Kick Off: 8:45am

Scotland v Samoa
Kobe Misaki Stadium, Kobe
Monday 30th September 2019
Kick Off: 11:15am

Scotland v Russia
Shizuoka Stadium Ecopa, Shizuoka
Wednesday 9th October 2019
Kick Off: 8:15am

Japan v Scotland
International Stadium Yokohama, Yokohama
Sunday 13th October 2019
Kick Off: 11:45am

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:08 am

Go japan. Don't even care, that team deserve it more.

Our goose is cooked boys and im not sad about it if this is the team that gains!

by bsando Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:10 am

Definitely! They’ve been unreal

by **RDW** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:11 am

Why did Carbery kick it out??

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:13 am

Lbp is better than owt. He knows scotland will struggle. Sensible imo.

by bsando Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:14 am

Bloody earls! If only japan had scored again

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:16 am

That may just hsvd put us out, even if we win our last three games

We are ptobxbly going to have to get z BP win agsinst Japzn and deny them one.

On todays showing, that won't be easy

by **George Carlin** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:16 am

Holy sh!tballs Batman.

Can someone who watched the game tell me why Ireland lost?

by cakeordeath Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:18 am

George Carlin wrote:Holy sh!tballs Batman.

Can someone who watched the game tell me why Ireland lost?

Japan scored more points

by **RDW** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:37 am

On the plus side the Scotland set up will have plenty to review to work out how to beat Japan. I'm fairly confident we would have lost that game too if we had them first up.

by Brendan Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:52 am

I think it will be like 4 years ago for Scotland.

It all comes down to Japan v Scotland and they will still have it in their own hands. Ireland did well once they went wide and did poorly when kicking it back. Our backrow seemed poor and in the second half we made silly mistakes.

Scotland like to go wide and Hogg is much more destructive then any Irish back so I think they will be ok. Winning by more than 7pts will be the key. And not picking up injuries against Samoa. 4 years ago Scotland took a bad loss v SA but still got through.

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 10:53 am

The trick will be for Japan to back up s performance like that. In some ways that could have been their WC final. It was in some wsys a game without pressure for them as well, no one gave them an earthly

Mind you, our trick will be not to back up our last performance. It will be hard to say who might be the favourite in our game sgainst Japan

by Brendan Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:04 am

BigGee wrote:The trick will be for Japan to back up s performance like that. In some ways that could have been their WC final. It was in some wsys a game without pressure for them as well, no one gave them an earthly

Mind you, our trick will be not to back up our last performance. It will be hard to say who might be the favourite in our game sgainst Japan

Scotland have two games to get everyone some game time. Ireland will be finished so you will know exactly what needs to be done. Japan will be favourites and have a massive expectation on their shoulders. The game against Russia allows Scotland to rest players or only give them limited minutes.

For some strange reason ireland tried to keep it tight in the second half and made the Japan defence look good. When they went wide during the game they seemed to open them up and make alot of ground. I am sure that Ireland game and Samoa game will be view lots by Scotland.

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:05 am

Tbh from a Scotland perspective I've already started lookibg ahead to the 6Ns. As I said earlier based on how craply we've been playing recently I'd actually rather we didn't get through for the sake of a good tournament and to be that push out of the door for our coaches.

by majesticimperialman Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:06 am

The way Japan played in this game and the way Scotland played against Ireland. you would have to say Japan will win easy.

by 123456789. Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:22 am

We’re in the queue for the exit lounge with three games to go now. It’s still in our hands but just. Three bonus point wins and we’re there still but it means reaching a new level.

by No9 Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:39 am

Japan just blew that group open and given Scotland a lifeline. Whether they take it is another thing.

But if Scotland don’t respect Japan (extremely unlikely) then Japan will top the group.

by TightHEAD Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:46 am

Can't see Scotland winning if it's warm.

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 11:57 am

Well it almost certainly will be warm but we may have become more acclimatised by then hopefully.

More likely our game plan and execution thst might lose us it. At least we won't play like Ireland, that much you can be sure of.

by jimbopip Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:00 pm

Like Tigertattie I was hoping for a draw. I just can't understand why Carberry kicked it out to end the game, other than Ireland were under the cosh and grateful to get the LBP.

Japan play a very controlled game. They keep the ball for long periods, but not in a one out smash it up way, and moved the opposition's defence around the pitch until they see an opening. The have pace and patience an d they execute well. In short they are competent to a very high degree, and that is not being patronising. I just wish Scotland had a degree of competence which they never dipped below. In a sense their 10 typifies the team: he just keeps making simple passes to the best option. he directs the play and seldom suffers with cognitive flatulence.

Can we beat japan? Yes, but we need to retain the ball, win the breakdown and not panic when they take charge of the game for long periods. What was really admirable today was the way the Japanese players stuck to the script when Ireland were on top in the first quarter; no panic, no running around with their hair on fire, just stuck to the game plan and eventually got their reward.

We should see off Samoa on Monday. Eight changes to the 23 but the front five is unchanged Shocked

Jonny Gray seems to have his own stool in the Last Chance saloon, the front row have their own tankards hanging above the bar and GG is standing by the front door wondering which way to walk. They all need to produce something good on Monday.

by **George Carlin** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:05 pm

cakeordeath wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Holy sh!tballs Batman.

Can someone who watched the game tell me why Ireland lost?

Japan scored more points

by tigertattie Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:14 pm

Japan won because they played with more intensity

Ireland couldn’t cope with the pace and started giving away penalties when they started trying too hard to win the ball back.

The Japan style is very much like ours. Fast and frantic. The difference was that today Ireland were half a yard slower but most importantly when Ireland were up to Japan, Japan took the contact, recycled quickly, changed the point of attack and went again.

Scotland on the other hand tried to get the pass away to the next man and often knocked on or the next man got the ball at the same time as the defender got him.

Basically Japan played simple fast paced rugby efficiently while we shoved shoite and ran ran about like headless chickens.

If Scotland don’t get a win with a BP over Samoa on Monday, we’re going home.

by 123456789. Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:37 pm

Is qualification based on points difference or head-to-head?

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:46 pm

Historically it's been points diff. With Ire picking up a lbp and us having a 24 point deficit we're very much heading towards the creek with a broken paddle.

by tigertattie Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:54 pm

It’s league points first then head to heads then points scored differential

With us failing to get a LBP against Ireland though then the heads to heads won’t count as we can’t end up on the same league points as Japan I don’t think.

Unless Samoa do is a favour then we’re needing maximum ooo ya from Japan and denying them a LBP to progress.

At this moment in tome we’re kinda fecked

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sat 28 Sep 2019, 12:59 pm

Watching that game in a Japanese pub was an incredible experience. Many Irish men wanted to punch me Whistle

If anyone thinks we’re starting the Japan game as favourites, I’m sorry but you’re wrong. The odds are stacked against us now. Japan were awesome today and they will back it up there is no doubt about that. This World Cup has been taken to their hearts in a massive way!

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 1:13 pm

This. Japan deserve it more.

Unless Scotland go full finnsanity in their last 3 games you can't say we deserve it given our pretty poor form for the last 18 months.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 1:17 pm

If at the completion of the pool phase two or more Teams are level on Match points, then the following criteria shall be used in the following order until one of the Teams can be determined as the higher ranked:

1) The winner of the Match in which the two tied Teams have played each other shall be the higher ranked.
2) The Team which has the best difference between points scored for and points scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
3) The Team which has the best difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
4) The Team which has scored most points in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.
5) The Team which has scored most tries in all its pool Matches shall be the higher ranked.

Should the tie be unresolved at the conclusion of steps 1 through 5, the rankings as per the updated. Official World Rugby World Rankings on October 14, 2019 will determine the higher ranked Team.

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 1:28 pm

So in summary, we need a lot of luck.

by bsando Sat 28 Sep 2019, 1:55 pm

Well Scotland have a huge challenge now. A mature side would grab it with two hands and get the job done. Really interested to see how Scotland deal with the pressure.

Personally, I think we are going to be Japan's toughest game as we play a similar style of rugby. It'll be wide and open and lots of try's. Just gotta hope by the final whistle the result and BP's fall our way.

Firstly though, Samoa. Scotland could just totally flop out on Monday and that'll be that.

by alive555 Sat 28 Sep 2019, 2:01 pm

So Toonie now has to win the next 2 games to keep his job

by majesticimperialman Sat 28 Sep 2019, 2:06 pm

alive555 wrote:So Toonie now has to win the next 2 games to keep his job

I guess that will be a tough call for him. hmmmmm start packing then eh.

by **NeilyBroon** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 2:41 pm

Bsando i think the reverse is true and Scotland will have a rough time of it. Japan aspire to the samd kind of rugby but play with far more discipline and consistency. They basically are what scotland say about themselves. Incredibly fit, fast and disciplined.

The fact that they have caused a big upset two world cups in a row suggest this isn't a flash in the pan. Add Scotland's terrible away record and short turnaround and you're looking at major advantage to Japan. We are no longer favourites for that game. In fact I'd argue we've gone so far back we're on the cusp of tier two along with Italy. Unless finn has an absolute masterstroke of a game it'll be tight. If it's tight I fancy Japan. In fact the best thing japan could do for Scottish rugby is beat us soundly and capitalise on our never-ending torrent of mistakes, indiscipline and poor decisions forcing change in the set up.

by tigertattie Sat 28 Sep 2019, 2:55 pm

alive555 wrote:So Toonie now has to win the next 2 games to keep his job

Next 3 games

by **BigGee** Sat 28 Sep 2019, 3:00 pm

Where does it leave Toonie though if we do win the next three and still go out?

A possible and even likely scenario!

by tigertattie Sat 28 Sep 2019, 3:04 pm

Id we don’t reach the QF then he has to go.

It’s not just the abject capitulation against Ireland. We’ve been ropey for years. The 6ns was bad this year and I think we used injuries as an excuse to be honest.

If we don’t get the QF he has to resign

If we get to the QF but get pumped he has to be pushed.

If we get to the semi he’ll be safe

If we get to the final he’ll be given the job for life

If we win the thing he’ll retire on a high as a rugby god.

But it’s most likely we don’t reach the QF. My prediction, we get 5 points vs Samoa and Russia but then we beat Japan but don’t get the BP or deny them and we lose out

by 123456789. Sat 28 Sep 2019, 5:23 pm

The good news is that it's firstly on head to heads:
So here's the relevant, reasonable scenarios that I can think of:
1. - Ireland pick up two bonus point wins and achieve the maximum 16. They are then largely irrelevant to our qualification hopes
- Japan pick up a bonus point win against Samoa - they are on 14
- Possible routes out the group for us then are:
1.Beat Japan by more than 7, preventing them from scoring and gain two bonus points
across three games thus beating Japan on the head to head - Happy Days
2. Win all three games with a bonus point, beating Japan on Match points - Happy Days
3. Lose ANY game OR allow Japan two bonus points -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vr-Ia45UJ6Q BUT for Toonie not Thatcher

2. Ireland pick up two bonus point wins and achieve the maximum 16. They are then largely irrelevant to our qualification hopes
- Japan fail to pick up a BP win against Samoa - they are on 13
- Possible routes out the group for us then are:
1. Beat Russia with bonus point, beat Samoa w/o BP, beat Japan by more than 7 and
fewer than 4 tries on either side. Qualify on head to head- Happy Days, beat the All
Blacks, win the semi, take the f**ing lot
2. Beat Russia with bonus point, beat Samoa w/o BP, beat Japan w. bonus point
restricting them to one BP or fewer - Happy Days
3. Win all three with BP - Happy Days
4. Anything else (I think) and it's toast for Townsend

3. Ireland fail to take BP against Samoa or Japan and end on 15 points, points difference comes into play (I'm not going to explain every potential score)

In short winning all three games with BP wins will get us through almost certainly, unless Japan get three BP across two games in which case we're done for and almost entirely of our own doing.

by bico Sat 28 Sep 2019, 6:01 pm

If we lose to Japan-Surely Townsend will point to the beating Ireland-Home advantage etc-Conditions-Ref biased towards home team. I cant see him resigning unless losses to Samoa & Russia as well as he must be on a decent wedge and would be unlikely to have many job offers.

by 123456789. Sat 28 Sep 2019, 6:29 pm

I think it's a fairly simple one. We are Scotland. We qualify for the latter stages of the World Cup. Regardless of the ifs, buts and maybes. If we accept crashing out in the pool stages, then it's a short step to accepting fourth in the group also.

Andy Robinson lasted less than a year after 2011. If we do crash out then it should not just be Townsend leaving but a root and branch investigation into Scottish rugby. Why the academies are not churning out players like they are in Ireland and Wales. Why we are almost uniquely reliant on 'Project Players'. Our size is not an excuse. We have the same Rugby history as Ireland, maybe more, we have a similar population and a similar economy. If they beat the All Blacks, then so can we. If Leinster can win the Champions cup, then so can Glasgow. If Munster can win the Champions cup, then so can Edinburgh. It's it simply not an option to accept failure at this stage of the world cup.

by Guest Sat 28 Sep 2019, 6:37 pm

Game on for Scotland. Ireland look shot. No guarantees they'll get a BP win v Samoa. No guarantee they'll beat them.

Have to see the Japan win as a positive.

by 123456789. Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:19 pm

Japan win isn’t remotely positive for us from a selfish perspective. Means both our rivals are likely to be on 3 wins minimum which is our maximum. Then it’s down to the lottery of bonus points and points difference.

by Taylorman Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:32 pm

miaow wrote:Game on for Scotland. Ireland look shot. No guarantees they'll get a BP win v Samoa. No guarantee they'll beat them.

Have to see the Japan win as a positive.

You’re probably very wrong again. Ireland now have the resolve to play to their absolute potential. I say they’ll go through on max points from here, no one will get a bonus point against them.

It’s a scenario they didn’t get in 2015 but do here. Samoa and Russia will be beaten ‘comprehensively’.

Now, our views can’t be more opposite correct?

We’ll see who knows their stuff huh chief?

by Guest Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:36 pm

Scotland are guaranteed 5 points from Russia, and will almost certainly claim the same against Samoa. Have to back them to do the job on Japan, even with the short turnaround. There's first place to play for now. I'd see that as a positive. Stranger things have happened than Scotland pulling it back from here and making a semi final.

by Taylorman Sat 28 Sep 2019, 8:40 pm

123456789. wrote:I think it's a fairly simple one. We are Scotland. We qualify for the latter stages of the World Cup. Regardless of the ifs, buts and maybes. If we accept crashing out in the pool stages, then it's a short step to accepting fourth in the group also.

Andy Robinson lasted less than a year after 2011. If we do crash out then it should not just be Townsend leaving but a root and branch investigation into Scottish rugby. Why the academies are not churning out players like they are in Ireland and Wales. Why we are almost uniquely reliant on 'Project Players'. Our size is not an excuse. We have the same Rugby history as Ireland, maybe more, we have a similar population and a similar economy. If they beat the All Blacks, then so can we. If Leinster can win the Champions cup, then so can Glasgow. If Munster can win the Champions cup, then so can Edinburgh. It's it simply not an option to accept failure at this stage of the world cup.

Brave talk. And exactly what Scotland need.

Personally I think you should be chasing Jamie Joseph...yesterday. What he’s done for the Highlanders and now Japan, both as underdogs in big matches, is amazing. He knows the fight required, and can empower a side ...’on the day’...and I think would use your words above exactly as a reason to go forward. The belief a coach create in a side you can’t buy...well, here you can, but you know what I mean. Whistle

by **George Carlin** Sun 29 Sep 2019, 9:58 am

Taylorman wrote:
123456789. wrote:I think it's a fairly simple one. We are Scotland. We qualify for the latter stages of the World Cup. Regardless of the ifs, buts and maybes. If we accept crashing out in the pool stages, then it's a short step to accepting fourth in the group also.

Andy Robinson lasted less than a year after 2011. If we do crash out then it should not just be Townsend leaving but a root and branch investigation into Scottish rugby. Why the academies are not churning out players like they are in Ireland and Wales. Why we are almost uniquely reliant on 'Project Players'. Our size is not an excuse. We have the same Rugby history as Ireland, maybe more, we have a similar population and a similar economy. If they beat the All Blacks, then so can we. If Leinster can win the Champions cup, then so can Glasgow. If Munster can win the Champions cup, then so can Edinburgh. It's it simply not an option to accept failure at this stage of the world cup.

Brave talk. And exactly what Scotland need.

Personally I think you should be chasing Jamie Joseph...yesterday. What he’s done for the Highlanders and now Japan, both as underdogs in big matches, is amazing. He knows the fight required, and can empower a side ...’on the day’...and I think would use your words above exactly as a reason to go forward. The belief a coach create in a side you can’t buy...well, here you can, but you know what I mean.

I would definitely entertain Joseph - he's excellent. They would have to pay Rennie an awful lot of money to stay away from home any longer than this season. He might do one season if Toonie got sacked but I think that there has to be some truth to the rumour that the Wallabies are interested in him. Cheika is a car crash with the press and the current result against Wales (half time at the moment) isn't helping him.

by tigertattie Sun 29 Sep 2019, 11:19 am

Rennie will go to Oz. He and his family will be based in kiwiland and he’ll just pop over to Oz as and when is needed.

I don’t think Joseph will leave Japan to come to Scotland. Why leave a national side to coach a lower ranked one???

by **NeilyBroon** Sun 29 Sep 2019, 11:32 am

The problem is we need a hard man like bvc was. Japan are very culturally self disciplined. Scotland are definitely not so need that kick up the erse because they won't do it themselves. I don't know if JJ fits that brief but rennie definitely doesn't.

by tigertattie Sun 29 Sep 2019, 11:35 am

I don’t really rate Rennie. All the resources he’s had at Glasgow and he’s not really brought them on has he!

by 123456789. Sun 29 Sep 2019, 1:58 pm

I think Rennie has had a tough time of it, Glasgow obviously had their budget cut and he's lost some big players in the mean time. However given the core of the team he'll have for Scotland is made up of players he's had at Glasgow (certainly the backline for the time being) there's no reason to expect him to do much better, if at all, with the national side.

by jimbopip Sun 29 Sep 2019, 3:02 pm

Well, it's pretty simple for us; three BP wins and we go through. Very Happy

If we lose against anyone we're pretty much dead: we're definitely sleeping with the fishes if we lose to Japan. Sad

You have to figure that the coaches had foreseen that there was just the teeniest possibility that we might have got nothing from the Ireland game and would be prepared for this eventuality. Headscratch

The only thing that surprises me is that Toonie hasn't come out with , "Well, sport can often be all about resurrection: about seizing the opportunity to rewrite history. So, in keeping with that idea our captain and inside centre against Samoa will be Furra Linee himself. Go get 'em Pete." Braveheart

GC, thanks for the travelogue MrsPip says you must be a very nice person, even if you are a blood sucking parasitic Shyster, Shyster and Flywheel. She also said "What exactly was he doing with his meat and two veg at midnight in Kilmarnock bus station?"

by tigertattie Sun 29 Sep 2019, 4:47 pm

Why was GC playing with himself at the bus station again?

I thought he was told not to keep doing it in public!!!

by Sponsored content