QF2 - Match Thread - New Zealand v Ireland - 19/10/19 - K/O 11:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

NZ



Team: B Barrett; Reece, Goodhue, Lienert-Brown, Bridge; Mo'unga, Smith; Moody, Taylor, Laulala, Retallick, Whitelock; Savea, Cane, Reid.

Replacements: Coles, Tuungafasi, Ta'avao, S Barrett, Todd, Perenara, Williams, J Barrett.


Ireland



Team: Kearney; Earls, Ringrose, Henshaw, Stockdale; Sexton, Murray; Healy, Best, Furlong, Henderson, James Ryan, O'Mahony; Van der Flier, Stander.

Replacements: Scannell, Kilcoyne, Porter, Beirne, Ruddock, McGrath, Carbery, Larmour.



Venue: Tokyo
Referee: Nigel Owens
AR1: Pascal Gauzere
AR2: Angus Gardiner
TMO: Graham Hughes

[SecretFly]

No.  I prefer just add one and one to your other pretty direct opinions over the years and interpret.  You're entitled to the opinion of course.  I probably share it in ways...but about other members of the team rather than Joe.

So back to the genuine question, because I genuinely don't know, was Joe free to choose his own assistants (based on budget constraints obviously)?  Maybe you know billy, or someone else might.

Anyway.  Farrell is still an unknown in a sense.  But probably Feek is the only other assistant I truly trusted to be good enough at the highest level.  Doubted the rest.

[eirebilly]

In the games that Ireland have won, Ireland have been the better coached for those occasions. Today, New Zealand were clearly the better coach and more structurally prepared team for me.

That comment is not centred directly at Joe Schmidt but at the whole coaching team.

That is my personal opinion on the matter Fly. Feel free to twist and turn anything I say to whatever agenda ye may have though

[Collapse2005]

Well Schmidt got it wrong today and Ireland ran out of steam this year so we will just have to put off our celebrations for another day. It doesnt really change my opinion of Joe though, great man and did a great job for us. Ill remember him fondly anyway but a change is no bad thing.

[SecretFly]

In the games that Ireland have won, Ireland have been the better coached for those occasions. Today, New Zealand were clearly the better coach and more structurally prepared team for me.

That comment is not centred directly at Joe Schmidt but at the whole coaching team.

That is my personal opinion on the matter Fly. Feel free to twist and turn anything I say to whatever agenda ye may have though

I don't have an agenda but feel free to think so, Billy.

Interpretation: on the day, Ireland were badly coached.

Like I said, I might even agree with you. *shock, horror, gulp*

[Pie]

No, but Owens is Welsh, hardly neutral.

you are such a prat

Aww, nervous bout the game tonight uh? I get it.

Allez France!

Ibid

[Taylorman]

You bid what? Farewell to the comp?

But jesting aside, good luck vs France. May the hills and valleys be singing and chirping tomorrow.

[Taylorman]

Oh I do have to mention it was great seeing the Irish version of England’s swing low in an effort to drown out the haka. Seeing all those faces efforts straining to drown it out.

It was equally great seeing those same faces with such huge frowns and looks of disappointment half way through the match. In fact I was urging them to sing then...alas, they wouldn’t.

Sometimes....you should be careful of what you ask for. Personally, I wouldn’t have recommended giving the ABs one huge massive dose of motivation a minute before kickoff, but hey...each to their own

[Guest]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaawn. Give it a rest T. Jeez...

[Taylorman]

Why? When thousands of fans choose to start blaring out all of a sudden their happiness and freedom of choice should be celebrated!. It was a part of the match and last time I checked this is the match thread. All I’m suggesting is I don’t recommend it next time. That loud blaring might have serious impact on your night of entertainment.

Obviously we’ll get swing low next week when a whole bunch of different dummies, aah I mean supporters, all roll up with their All Black motivation voice boxes.

I think we should commend them. We need all the help we can get.

[Guest]

This isn't celebrating. I'm not surprised you don't know the difference between gloating and celebrating based on the fact you're on a NH forum tbh, but this is anything but 'celebrating' - you're looking for a reaction from anonymous people online, and it's sad more than anything else.

[Taylorman]

No, I’m commenting on the fact that there’s a trend, started by England, now mimicked by Ireland that suggests drowning out the haka is ‘good for the soul’.

Now as it’s England, that is definitely going to happen again next week. So it’s as relevant as anything else on here in terms of the next match.

I’m passed the fact that it’s rude, ie they don’t do it during the anthem, or a one minute silence, but choose to do it during the haka, which is done in respect of the opposition.

That’s simply a clash in cultures, and that’s fine, but the offshoot of that is likely it will serve to fire up all 23 ABs, one minute before kick off. So aim saying bring yer voices, the louder the better.

Fair enough? (It should be)

[Guest]

If the only gloating you'd done was in relation to the haka, fine, but it's clearly not.

[Taylorman]

What gloating?
And believe me, if Ireland had won the gloating here would have gone off the charts, so don’t preach to me about gloating. It’s been minimal, if at all.

I’m not gloating about the haka. English fans have a choice to make, drown the haka out or not. That...is all about character.

[Guest]

One point on the game - Kieran Read.

Shocking last season, thought he was past it. Considering the discussion about age, fitness, raw attributes, and when to put players out to pasture, fair play, he's clearly a top pro to come back from that: no way would he get picked on sentiment, and he turned up today and performed after what's been a pretty ordinary 2 years for the All Blacks.

If he leads this team to a 3rd consecutive and 4th overall trophy, despite the Lions tour and everything else, you have to give him credit as a great of the game and of AB rugby.

[Taylorman]

Yeah well he’s come off a serious injury. He got numerous concussions and has battled his way back. As Hansen said he took a lot of flak. Us kiwis have never doubted his abilities to make it back. As with a lot of things, the ABs continue to be what others think they are not.

[Gooseberry]

Yeah well he’s come off a serious injury. He got numerous concussions and has battled his way back. As Hansen said he took a lot of flak. Us kiwis have never doubted his abilities to make it back. As with a lot of things, the ABs continue to be what others think they are not.

Humble?

[Taylorman]

Amazing how the humble card comes out when folks don’t like a result. Hilarious. Let’s rubbish the ABs before and after the game if they lose but oh, let’s demand ‘humility’ if they win. That’ll shut them up.

A fickle lot.

[The Great Aukster]

The crowd singing and drowning out the Haka was inspirational stuff - the sort of thing fans do to support their team. Given that World Rugby has sterilised opponents from any response to the haka (lest their favourite brand throw a tantrum), the singing was the best response possible.
The Irish support was phenomenal and totally outnumbered any All Black following, because win or lose they support their team. The noise at the end for Best showed that despite the defeat they won't turn on their players - it's what fans do. When the plane arrives back in Dublin there will be no rugby kit with the word 'losers' written on it.

[LondonTiger]

The crowd singing and drowning out the Haka was inspirational stuff - the sort of thing fans do to support their team. Given that World Rugby has sterilised opponents from any response to the haka (lest their favourite brand throw a tantrum), the singing was the best response possible.

Agree 100%. Not seen much made of it in press or on forums unlike the Twickenham crowd last year. Mind you, "Fields of Athenry" is more inspiring than "Swing Low"

[Taylorman]

The crowd singing and drowning out the Haka was inspirational stuff - the sort of thing fans do to support their team. Given that World Rugby has sterilised opponents from any response to the haka (lest their favourite brand throw a tantrum), the singing was the best response possible.

Agree 100%. Not seen much made of it in press or on forums unlike the Twickenham crowd last year. Mind you, "Fields of Athenry" is more inspiring than "Swing Low"

Oh I agree too, I just don’t think it actually benefits their side doing it. For all those that did, most were teary eyed half an hour later.

England fans will do swing low as well, where the japs will be wondering what on earth they’ve walked into.

Anyway, this should have been the final, the only real rugby playing sides left, Wales skinned their way through and SA ground Japan down, both going as expected.

[SecretFly]

The crowd singing and drowning out the Haka was inspirational stuff - the sort of thing fans do to support their team. Given that World Rugby has sterilised opponents from any response to the haka (lest their favourite brand throw a tantrum), the singing was the best response possible.

Agree 100%. Not seen much made of it in press or on forums unlike the Twickenham crowd last year. Mind you, "Fields of Athenry" is more inspiring than "Swing Low"

Oh I agree too, I just don’t think it actually benefits their side doing it. For all those that did, most were tearing eyed half an hour later.

Part of the fun too - tears.  We like melancholy in Ireland.  Just actually read the lyrics of that there Irish version of Swing Low.  Have a look at Irish fans emerging from the game on a YouTube 'Off the Ball' video though.  You can't wish a defeat away.  All you can do is celebrate the unity and plan a better future.

Meanwhile, one statement by Hansen I'll hold and  treasure for the future.

[Taylorman]

The crowd singing and drowning out the Haka was inspirational stuff - the sort of thing fans do to support their team. Given that World Rugby has sterilised opponents from any response to the haka (lest their favourite brand throw a tantrum), the singing was the best response possible.

Agree 100%. Not seen much made of it in press or on forums unlike the Twickenham crowd last year. Mind you, "Fields of Athenry" is more inspiring than "Swing Low"

Oh I agree too, I just don’t think it actually benefits their side doing it. For all those that did, most were tearing eyed half an hour later.

Part of the fun too - tears.  We like melancholy in Ireland.  Just actually read the lyrics of that there Irish version of Swing Low.  Have a look at Irish fans emerging from the game on a YouTube 'Off the Ball' video though.  You can't wish a defeat away.  All you can do is celebrate the unity and plan a better future.

Meanwhile, one statement by Hansen I'll hold and  treasure for the future.

Yes it’s all part of the fun, but the irony of it all is singing through the haka only serves to lessen ones chances, the common consensus amongst non kiwi fans seems to be ha ha, that’ll teach ya for being so precious about your stupid wardance.

The common consensus from kiwis is ‘geez, this is going to be easier than we thought’.

It’s such a wonderful disconnect that we couldn’t have possibly dreamed up on our own...opposition fans passionately singing for their own downfall.

[SecretFly]

No, no, no.  We've just joined the ABs in singing our own tribal chants or songs before the game.  We have a very ancient culture too up here, steeped in warfare and blood, bloodlines often running right back to the first peoples coming back into Europe after the ice age.

ABs shouldn't feel other 'tribes' insult their Haka.  Nope, it was our game too and we have our own tribes.  Mine isn't NH or 'European' - it's Irish.

If ABs want to use a display of my identity (Fields) to get their blood up, so be it.  Fine by me.  Respect the Haka.  Thought it was an epic moment really of voice and image as the Haka mixed with Fields.  Kinda like Zulu the movie

ABs won because the played by far the best rugby, like they planned to before the Haka.  The game is the game.

[Heaf]

Sorry I don't buy that the ABs aren't already at maximum motivation when they take to the pitch ... I seriously doubt that the opposition fans singing bothers them one bit ...

[Taylorman]

Oh so do I, but it is ‘clearly’ the intention of those straining to sing above it when it starts to ‘feel’ like they have some ‘input’ to their sides success.

We’ll drown their stupid haka out ha ha.

I mean, why else would they do that? So it’s those fans that invariably put themselves through a roller coaster of emotion and laughs and eventually tears when the watch their side get beaten like that.

It’s all good. This is what coming together from all around the world and playing rugby’s all about...the sharing of culture, sport, language, each from our own perspective.

Wouldn’t have it any other way. They can sing a laugh at our haka. We can watch the various stages of their emotional turmoil. it’s great!

[The Great Aukster]

Oh so do I, but it is ‘clearly’ the intention of those straining to sing above it when it starts to ‘feel’ like they have some ‘input’ to their sides success.

We’ll drown their stupid haka out ha ha.

I mean, why else would they do that? So it’s those fans that invariably put themselves through a roller coaster of emotion and laughs and eventually tears when the watch their side get beaten like that.

It’s all good. This is what coming together from all around the world and playing rugby’s all about...the sharing of culture, sport, language, each from our own perspective.

Wouldn’t have it any other way. They can sing a laugh at our haka. We can watch the various stages of their emotional turmoil.  it’s great!

Taking umbrage at singing? Laughing at tears? Delighting more in others' defeat than your own victory? Is this schadenfreude a product of having to look at the rest of the world from the very edge of it?

[Gooseberry]

Jeez Taylor your lot beat one NH side and you act like you're world champions or something



Oh

[SecretFly]

Jeez Taylor your lot beat one NH side and you act like you're world champions or something



Oh

Now you gone and did it!

[Guest]

We’ll drown their stupid haka out ha ha.

This is where it's a really, really useful moment to stop, think, and listen to what other people say. Because I doubt there is a single person in the ground with that mindset.

Fly's assessment is pretty much bang on. It's the same for Wales and song. It's not about you - it's 'our' game too, that's a great way of putting it.

[Rugby Fan]

New Zealand win the semi-final against England 22-6

[theslosty]

No, no, no.  We've just joined the ABs in singing our own tribal chants or songs before the game.  We have a very ancient culture too up here, steeped in warfare and blood, bloodlines often running right back to the first peoples coming back into Europe after the ice age.

ABs shouldn't feel other 'tribes' insult their Haka.  Nope, it was our game too and we have our own tribes.  Mine isn't NH or 'European' - it's Irish.

If ABs want to use a display of my identity (Fields) to get their blood up, so be it.  Fine by me.  Respect the Haka.  Thought it was an epic moment really of voice and image as the Haka mixed with Fields.  Kinda like Zulu the movie

I agree I thought it was a great pre-match moment with both nations putting down their respective markers and I say that as someone that enjoys the haka. I didn't see it as disrespectful and World Rugby didn't seem to think so either as they published a tweet saying "this is what it's all about" or something along those lines.

[Rugby Fan]

On the Irish singing with the haka? Japanese viewers loved it. The idea one side was disrespecting the other would bemuse them.

[Guest]

Just a point on the haka - it's fairly common that when Samoa/Fiji/Tonga play each other, one starts their own culturally significant war dance/greeting/challenge before the other has finished.

As that's the case, why is it disrespectful to sing, let alone just the fans? No doubt there are many Kiwis who chip in what a 'cheeeee hooooo' during the haka...so what's the issue? Fan involvement? What's the issue?

[stub]

As far as I’m concerned the Irish fans are perfectly entitled to sing their songs whenever they like. As Fly rightly says, it’s their game too. This shouldn’t be either offensive or something that should cause gloating in others. What is the expectation? Respectful silence? No, there are two proud teams involved and challenge will be met with a response in most cases.

[Taylorman]

It’s disrespectful because it’s not done here. I’m not saying it’s wrong in the context of this sporting tournament but in terms of the Maori culture it’s definitely disrespectful.

It’s something WE have to get used to. And that’s fine. But like those who don’t like having to sit there and watch the haka we don’t have to like it either.

That’s the only reason I say it’s simply providing motivation for the team to be even more motivated.

I think it should continue as it definitely adds to the atmosphere, in fact there’s nothing quite like it now.

I might say though that you might find at some point some kiwis in the crowd taking offence to it and doing something they might regret.

They need to get with the occasion as well but there would be a minority that wont have it. I’m guessing.

Makes the semi final even that much more fascinating!

[stub]

Not sure it does Taylor to be honest. Everyone is in Japan, and any criminal behaviour will be dealt with under Japanese law (for the Kiwis who react badly).The Haka will happen (i quite like it), the English will sing a song at the same time (I quite like that). Both teams will be motivated and most likely NZ will win. (I will not like that.)

[Scottrf]

The phrase ‘get over yourself’ comes to mind.

[Taylorman]

As far as I’m concerned the Irish fans are perfectly entitled to sing their songs whenever they like. As Fly rightly says, it’s their game too. This shouldn’t be either offensive or something that should cause gloating in others. What is the expectation? Respectful silence? No, there are two proud teams involved and challenge will be met with a response in most cases.

Yep, absolutely agree. Hopefully it’s seen that way by all. Time will tell. I still think there will be some sort of residual hangover from it as it continues but watching the Irish match it certainly set a great scene.

[SecretFly]

Incidentally, I love the Haka.  Always have.  Always quite animated in the debates here that sometimes call for it to be banned.

If love of something is disrespectful of something...that's just weird logic.  Some people moan about the advantage it psychologically gives the ABs.  I personally never bought that.  Their advantage is their habitual skill levels in actual games.  
But for a fact, the absolute majority of that Irish crowd adore the Haka.  They feel honoured that they're there to witness a big World Cup game against the ABs.  It's only been the second time we've met I believe? And I think you'd guess that they'd feel quite cheated if for some reason the ABs refused to perform it yesterday.  For most fans, even the singing ones, it's not remotely hate or dislike of the Haka.

[Rugby Fan]

It’s disrespectful because it’s not done here. I’m not saying it’s wrong in the context of this sporting tournament but in terms of the Maori culture it’s definitely disrespectful.

We've been down this road before. Apparently, it's not disrespectful when drug dealers and gang rapists in the Mongrel Mob do the haka while wearing jackets with nazi insignia, but it is when anyone else does anything other than look on in silence when it is performed. As youngsters used to say: go figure.  You can't even respond to a haka with your own cultural gesture without being accused of disrespect, as the Taiwanese softball team discovered.

https://www.flava.co.nz/the-latest/nz-white-sox-are-majorly-disrespected-by-chinese-taipei-softball-team-after-haka/

[Taylorman]

Don’t think you’re speaking for everyone there Fly. There are those that hate the haka. There will be those in that crowd that will have sung to ensure they didn’t have to hear it.

Do you not agree with that, from a few thousand folks?

If thousands of kiwis started doing the haka during the Irish national anthem, would you find that disrespectful, or, in the spirit of the game,  opposition fans not wanting to sit quiet through some foreign tune?

Disrespectful? Yes or No? One answer.

[Guest]

It’s disrespectful because it’s not done here. I’m not saying it’s wrong in the context of this sporting tournament but in terms of the Maori culture it’s definitely disrespectful.

Is it disrespectful when Tonga/Fiji/Samoa do this sort of thing?

Just trying to make sense of this 'disrespect' thing - seems more of a modern afterthought than anything else. It clearly doesn't abide by the traditions of an anthem, where silence is a universal sign of respect. So just wondering if, as it seems, it's more about making the opposition watch it in silence - and therefore get a psychological 'edge' - than it is an actual precedent-based fact that fans singing during it is disrespectful?

[Guest]

Don’t think you’re speaking for everyone there Fly. There are those that hate the haka.

Na, he really does speak for 99% of people. Unless you're letting your own mindset seep in, there's a tiny fraction of embittered people who get kicks out of things like 'hating' the haka ( ) and they're obviously going to be the trolls you find in any comment section, who probably never played, don't attend games etc.

Your views seem strangely aligned to journalists' more sensational work tbh. At leat they're getting paid for it, I suppose...

[Old Man]

There is a slight difference between two countries having their Anthem sung, and one team doing a haka and the other not.

Whilst I love the haka and think spectators should rather appreciate the culture of NZ Maori, you cannot force people to behave the way you think.

We live in a modern day society full of equal rights, social justice warriors, etc.

Yet as a society we are more split apart than ever before, intolerance runs high, if you are a white male the feminists will tell you that you have no rights to debate their demands as you haven’t experienced it, andso on and so on.

The truth is modern society has become pathetically oversensitive.

Those that want to find a reason to hate something will find it. Those that love it will continue to love it.

No amount of debate will solve the haka issues.

[Taylorman]

On the Irish singing with the haka? Japanese viewers loved it. The idea one side was disrespecting the other would bemuse them.

Technically its not the crowd performing unrehearsed but other than that, agree. No difference, something Maori need to get used to.
Not that they haven't spent several hundred years doing that sort if thing...getting g used to stuff.

[hugehandoff]

Taylorman.....I have sung lustily at Twickers during the haka before and did it to try and boost England. An instinctive response at the time. Purely trying to lift the men in white. But now I prefer to respect the haka and then respond with a very loud swing low, but the crowd just sing over it anyway. It all adds to the theatre and atmosphere and no one should be too precious about these things.

[Taylorman]

On the Irish singing with the haka? Japanese viewers loved it. The idea one side was disrespecting the other would bemuse them.

Technically its not the crowd performing unrehearsed but other than that, agree. No difference, something Maori need to get used to.

[Taylorman]

Don’t think you’re speaking for everyone there Fly. There are those that hate the haka.

Na, he really does speak for 99% of people. Unless you're letting your own mindset seep in, there's a tiny fraction of embittered people who get kicks out of things like 'hating' the haka ( ) and they're obviously going to be the trolls you find in any comment section, who probably never played, don't attend games etc.

Your views seem strangely aligned to journalists' more sensational work tbh. At leat they're getting paid for it, I suppose...

When did I say I did. I enjoyed it, but I know there will be those that don't, simply because we are taught to respect it. They don't cover 'sporting occasions' when teaching Tikanga Maori so its unexplored in that respect. I see some are getting g all excited so clearly its ruffled feathers.
I enjoyed it, just saying others won't, and haka has more meaning than a game if rugby to some. So I wouldn't be surprised if there's a move to remove it altogether. Not saying that's good either.
It is what it is.

[Taylorman]

There is a slight difference between two countries having their Anthem sung, and one team doing a haka and the other not.

Whilst I love the haka and think spectators should rather appreciate the culture of NZ Maori, you cannot force people to behave the way you think.

We live in a modern day society full of equal rights, social justice warriors, etc.

Yet as a society we are more split apart than ever before, intolerance runs high, if you are a white male the feminists will tell you that you have no rights to debate their demands as you haven’t experienced it, andso on and so on.

The truth is modern society has become pathetically oversensitive.

Those that want to find a reason to hate something will find it. Those that love it will continue to love it.

No amount of debate will solve the haka issues.

There is no difference between drowning out an anthem and drowning out the haka. To some. You're just claiming what are acceptable norms within your own belief system. As am I. No more, no less.

[Collapse2005]

Personally I like it, dont really get why it comes up as a talking point so often.

On a side note Ebop is very quiet today. I suspect there might be a hangover to nurse.

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