QF3 - Match Thread - Wales v France - 20/10/19 - K/O 8:15 BST

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

Thought I'd get these made nice and early for a few reasons - but one being that we're already now looking ahead to the QFs with several teams having finished their group stage, so it's all heating up for the proper knockout stuff...barring any more disruption.

Wales



Team:Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Hadleigh Parkes, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Gareth Davies; Wyn Jones, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis; Jake Ball, Alun Wyn Jones; Aaron Wainwright, Justin Tipuric, Josh Navidi.


Reps: Elliot Dee, Rhys Carre, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Ross Moriarty, Tomos Williams, Rhys Patchell, Owen Watkin


France



Team: Medard - Penaud, Vakatawa, Fickou, Huget - Ntamack, Du pont - Ollivon , Alldrit, Lauret -
Vaahamahina, Leroux - Slimani, Guirado (c), Poirot
Bench: Cat, Braille,Sentiano, Gabrillagues, Picamoles, Serin, Lopez, Rattez



Venue: Oita
Referee: Jaco Peyper
AR1: Nic Berry
AR2: Paul Williams
TMO: Marius Joncker

[SecretFly]

Christ the world really has moved away from 20th century appreciation of good rugby.

The SA v Wales game this far out looks delicious. A real war. Rugby is war, not basketball.

[gavstar]

Stephen Jones has his paw prints all over our world cup performances so far....yes we need to continue to develop our game in attack, but the world cup stage is not the venue to tell our players to move away from the normal strengths of our defensive game. Patchel in his last match played at comfort zone pace....actually getting the worst ratings score of all players...only 4 by some pundits.... As Gwyn Jones said on scrum 5 after that game wrong tactics. He actually said he was surprised we didn't play warren ball . Alfie...not everyones favourite pundit...said we re better than today...play to our strengths. Sorry Mr Jones....your premiership rugby tactics are exactly that.

[Taylorman]

And I know England nz won't live up to expectations because both teams will be wanting the other to play, so there will be a ton of kicking.  But Wales SA has the pontential to be very grim

Aah, no, Seems to take a lot of convincing doesn’t it. Clearly NZ want to play, that’s all they did vs Ireland. There won’t be any guarded effort versus England. NZ will try to up the tempo and accuracy as much as possible versus England, and run anything and everything at them. Their selection demands it.

Seems there’s only two left trying to play rugby now, SA and Wales falling over themselves to get there.

[Old Man]

Christ the world really has moved away from 20th century appreciation of good rugby.

The SA v Wales game this far out looks delicious.  A real war.  Rugby is war, not basketball.

Agree, this match will be a war of attrition.

[LondonTiger]

And I know England nz won't live up to expectations because both teams will be wanting the other to play, so there will be a ton of kicking.  But Wales SA has the pontential to be very grim

Aah, no, Seems to take a lot of convincing doesn’t it. Clearly NZ want to play, that’s all they did vs Ireland. There won’t be any guarded effort versus England. NZ will try to up the tempo and accuracy as much as possible versus England, and run anything and everything at them. Their selection demands it.

Seems there’s only two left trying to play rugby now, SA and Wales falling over themselves to get there.

Remind me, but was this run everything policy in play against SA?

[Taylorman]

And I know England nz won't live up to expectations because both teams will be wanting the other to play, so there will be a ton of kicking.  But Wales SA has the pontential to be very grim

Aah, no, Seems to take a lot of convincing doesn’t it. Clearly NZ want to play, that’s all they did vs Ireland. There won’t be any guarded effort versus England. NZ will try to up the tempo and accuracy as much as possible versus England, and run anything and everything at them. Their selection demands it.

Seems there’s only two left trying to play rugby now, SA and Wales falling over themselves to get there.

Remind me, but was this run everything policy in play against SA?

Good question, clearly the two 50 meter plus tries were, the rest I don’t know. It’s pool play.

For me this selection turned things towards the running game far more than any Hansen has made previously. World cups ‘we are told’ demand risk averse policy. That alone insists on a Crotty Ben Smith selection, and I’ve no doubt every other of the seven selectors in the quarters would have them in an AB 23.

But to instead select Goodhue and Jordie, both young, comparatively naive and raw in form?

Hansen’s putting down a marker. Come and get us because we are taking this game somewhere else in these knockouts he’s saying. Come and play rugby the way it should be played. Put your insecurities and percentages away, and come and play. Ireland tried, but couldn’t keep up.

You don’t see that at all?

Hmmm, looks like the other half of the draw didn’t either. There’s no secret here. Smith said our issue to date has been our starts, they’ve been poor. Here they got it right. In training, they said they’ve been focussing on their carrying, passing, plays, variations. We saw a lot of that vs Ireland.

A pity we meet England semis. Of the other quarters they look like they really want to play. As did Japan for a while, but they just got run over.

[Shifty]

Wales could of played a lot better today, but in knock out rugby it's all about winning, while Wales have won their last 4 games against South Africa, so I can't say I'm going to totally write Wales off. We beat Australia, had a tear up with Fiji, and sneaked past France who had a long time to prepare for this game, then lost a centre just before the game, and actually played all our pool games unlike some countries.


Either way I'm going to enjoy the next 2 games for Wales in the World Cup. We've either got a World Cup Final, or a 3/4 place play off to look forward to.

[Taylorman]

Ireland won their last two of three vs NZ too.
World cups a different beast, as France nearly showed, expected by rugby power stats to be the least likeliest to upset, yet they went closest.
SA know WCup rugby and finals. Beating them somewhere else won’t mean a thing.
Looking at both semis, it looks like you are in for a good battle of attrition, SA will ensure it.
Last four, it’s anyone’s trophy now.

[SecretFly]

Either way I'm going to enjoy the next 2 games for Wales in the World Cup.  We've either got a World Cup Final, or a 3/4 place play off to look forward to.

I wouldn't really be looking forward to a game against NZ or England after a big game against SA that we'd just lost.  Well maybe masochistically there might be some kinky delight, but mostly, getting on a plane and getting out there would be preferable.

[lostinwales]

I'll qualify what I said earlier. Both England and NZ are more than capable of playing when they think something is on, and shutting down kicking and soaking up pressure when it is not

[LondonTiger]

Either way I'm going to enjoy the next 2 games for Wales in the World Cup.  We've either got a World Cup Final, or a 3/4 place play off to look forward to.

I wouldn't really be looking forward to a game against NZ or England after a big game against SA that we'd just lost.  Well maybe masochistically there might be some kinky delight, but mostly, getting on a plane and getting out there would be preferable.

I do not like 3/4 playoff games. Never any atmosphere and often second string sides.

[Pie]

This is what I love about Wales, we didnt string a single comprehensive attack together involving the back 3 but we still win.

The W is everything in knockout rugby.

Now just praying on JD2 and Navidi fitness.

[mikey_dragon]

Parkes still looms hanging, might be a good idea to finally drop him from the starting team. Watkin might also be better at 12 than 13. Did anyone else think Biggar was a bit poor today?

[majesticimperialman]

mikey_dragon

Regards Biggar i thought he pulled a thigh mussel in the first 5 minutes when he got charge down clearing the ball from behind his own line.

[BamBam]

mikey_dragon

Regards Biggar i thought he pulled a thigh mussel in the first 5 minutes when he got charge down clearing the ball from behind his own line.

Maybe that's why he went into his shell?

[Guest]

What a weird old game.

Around 70 minutes I had that sinking feeling - this was the Australia game from 4 years ago all over again. When North blew another 3 man overlap - like he did when playing 13 Australians - I thought that was it. We might get another chance, but desperate, disorganised defence would be enough to stop it - and maybe if we did get the try, it would be in the corner and we'd lose by a point.

Very happy that didn't happen, but Wales were fortunate today.

However, France did all their good work in the first half, and Wales had enough in the end when they finally got the ball in to France's 22 and, although probably didn't deserve the win overall, got the win. All their luck seemingly aligned in this game, and there's no way they can repeat that, but a win's a win at this stage.

I think that was the worst Wales' first team has played since the Scotland game in 2017, and therefore probably the 2nd worst performance in 4 years. Maybe that's harsh overall considering some decent work in the set piece, but the atrocious running/attacking game - it was non existent - and general lack of cutting edge in the loose was unacceptable.

The big issue, still, feels like Wales are a team that just adapt to the opposition - like water. They fit the mould set by other teams. Nowhere near enough determination and dominance of our own gameplan unfortunately - seemingly because there isn't really one. We limped over the line here, against 14 men. That's disappointing tbh and the relief some players like Biggar showed at the end doesn't bode well - all it took was moving it between the touchlines a few times and space - and gaps - would have opened up after 15-20 phases. Wales SHOULD have scored 2-3 tries here today from back play, instead they scored 0 and scored the equivalent of 'own goals' from France.

Thought France did ok - particularly Medard's use of kicking straight back from box kicks, realising Wales leave a gap in the corner. But by and large they relied on effectively one man to do the damage at centre. Pennaud etc. showed some nice moves, and there was some inventiveness with the hands, but thought W

As an aside, thought Peyper was very, very poor. A few shocking decisions against Wales - a knock on that wasn't in the second half, a clear accidental offside where a kick through hit their own man yet they ended up with an 80m gain, and calling an advantage for 2 seconds before deciding against it, and France nearly score. Add in deliberately ignoring Wainwright being throttled before he was elbowed, and by and large it seemed like he was more focused on not being intimidated by the occasion than the game itself. Also thought Wales were fortunate with the rip for Moriarty's try. But the biggest issue was the offside - he just didn't deal with it. It was a pretty obvious French tactic to 'rush out' early, put their hands up, stop the ball going out by 2 seconds, and not getting penalised. Happened far too often. Generally, just a poor ref, and hopefully Wales have Barnes for SA, but it'll proably be Garces...

Onwards and upwards.

Oh, and I thought JD2 might not be playing...

[RiscaGame]

Thought Biggar was ok. I found it a bit interesting that we were chasing a game and Gatland didn’t see the need for Patchell. Guess that says a lot.

[Guest]

We barely had the ball in fairness. Not much good, Biggar was clearly the best 10 to have in that situation. The issue for me was more the midfield - it barely went wide.

There has to be more to Wales' attack than a chip over the top on penalty advantage as well.

France lost this game as much as Wales won.

[Guest]

Part of the problem for me was how flat we were standing/organised in attack. I felt that the French were up in our faces super quick today. Perhaps a hint of offside that you could debate was not picked up but regardless, we did not adapt to this. They were so quick with the rush defence that by the time it got from Gareth Davies to Biggar to the next man (be it Parkes or whoever) the player was either tackled ball and all or it needed to be shipped on either blind (like Parkes to a North in the first half) or slapped on. Risky, risky play. I felt that all it needed was us to set the angle of our line to be a bit deeper so we had more space. That sort of adaptation on the fly was needed but we failed to do it. Not sure if that was due to following instructions or a lack of nous.

I mentioned during the game about variety too. The French were full of variety and I think we would have don’t better if we mixed it up a bit. The rush defence was crying out for a chip over or a grubber through just to keep them thinking and perhaps make them nervous about rushing. Biggar did chip once I think but more was needed.

[Guest]

SA still has to beat Japan, and then maybe Wales rock up next Weekend, SA struggle with Wales’ slow everything to a glacier halt.

Not sure Wales will get away with that. They're going to have to play some more rugby. If they go toe to toe with that gigantic Bik pack then it could go very wrong.

Wales need to start using all that back three talent, why play three try machines at the back and then force them to play aerial ping pong all game. What a waste.

Another game where Watkin was totally anonymous unfortunately confirms, for me, that we don't have the midfield to win. Scott Williams should be starting in this team and it's a damn shame he isn't. Parkes' nice deft touches at regional level become dangerous little touches at test level.

If Navidi and JD aren't available next week I don't think the Boks or Japan will be hugely intimidated by playing this Welsh team.

Agreed, sadly. Navidi's simply too good at 'everything' to be compensated for. Wainwright's tidy - took his try well, showed footwork out wide - but he's not got nearly the defensive bulk. Got bumped off for a try, and considering the size/power the Boks will bring, and previous performances in the autumn, Navidi will be a big, big loss. Moriarty won't plug the gap either - more like Hibbard in defence, capable of a big one or two a game, but not technically as good as Navidi.

Is it me or does AWJ look dead on his feet?

Not just AWJ, the whole Welsh team did, to me.

How much of that was the week off? Not sure. But seeing that we lost 4 years ago because we were spent after 60 v the Boks and were hanging on at the time of try, I can't help but feel something similar will happen again. Needs to be a big lead, and a stroke of luck like v Australia, for Wales to get to the final, I feel. Boks just have much more natural and power athletes. Parkes, AWJ, Jake Ball (who's actually doing well) and the props will be hurting. But it's not just that. It's also that Ken is a lightweight Marx, Wainwright the same with Pieter-Steph du Toit etc. You could pick any match up and we're lacking in strength or speed, and that's basically why we look unlikely to win. England have got the basic attributes spot on - you need pace and power.

One positive - Tomos Williams. What a player he is. I'd be tempted to get him on as early as possible against next week, or even start him. Maybe stick with GD for now, but he looks like the sole game changer in the Wales side capable of a bench slot.

I'd be tempted to get Shingler back in on the bench irrespective of whether Navidi is fit or not. Chances are a hamstring tear means he's done, but I was just thinking that Shingler would have made a difference today in the final 20. Maybe even go for a 6:2 split if JD2 is out as well. It's then between 1/2P or Patchell who takes #22. Gareth Davies can cover wings if needed. Likewise Tipuric. Maybe that's naive, but I just want Shingler in the team, there aren't enough players with the desire, mentality, and basic raw attributes to take the ball and run it hard, fast, and offer the chance of an offload. Need Shingler in the 23.

[Taylorman]

No chance for France upsetting huh Miaow?
Luck comes to mind.

[RiscaGame]

Yeah Wainwright didn’t do great on the one try, but I also thought Ball (I think) should’ve hit higher too. Then Wainwright’s half tackle would’ve been Moreno effective possibly. Not trying to excuse the tackle really, just my opinion.

[Guest]

What? They didn't upset. Not sure you noticed but Wales won? Weird...

Get some hobbies, T Man?

[Guest]

This is what I love about Wales, we didnt string a single comprehensive attack together involving the back 3 but we still win.

Yep. Said on another thread, but the difference in attack is glaring at this tournament. Wales probably have one of the least intelligent attacks in the whole competition. Skills aside, Uruguay's was more intuitive and 'better', frankly, as they showed against Fiji.

The issue is the 'line' of attack. I honestly think Japan would have beaten us as they ran straight, but even better than that, they looked to hit the weak shoulder, either through stepping and zig zagging, or through hands producing a weak shoulder. NZ run hard and straight and use skills and fitness to make weak shoulders and get over the gainline. England use pace and power and their ballast carries like Sinckler, George, Itoje etc. on the short-ish ball, as we saw against Australia. Australia do it really well, at pace; SA aren't too bad at it but perhaps lack inventiveness; France showed touches today with inside balls, offloads out of the tackle, but, crucially, running straight.

Wales (and Ireland) are useless. We run at 45 degree angles. Sometimes we run lateral. It's quite clearly the biggest difference in attacks for me - the physical power to run at pace, coming from depth, having the hands to execute good passes at pace, and then either taking contact (a weak shoulder ideally) and using quick ball to reset, or then offloading from the floor, out of tackle, being used as a dummy run etc.

Wales' attack honestly seems to just be playing behind in the second wave of attack, behind the outside pod of forwards, and just hope that North or Liam or whoever else executes an overlap or creates space somehow.

Stephen Jones has his paw prints all over our world cup performances so far....yes we need to continue to develop our game in attack, but the world cup stage is not the venue to tell our players to move away from the normal strengths of our defensive game. Patchel in his last match played at comfort zone pace....actually getting the worst ratings score of all players...only 4 by some pundits.... As Gwyn Jones said on scrum 5 after that game wrong tactics. He actually said he was surprised we didn't play warren ball . Alfie...not everyones favourite pundit...said we re better than today...play to our strengths. Sorry Mr Jones....your premiership rugby tactics are exactly that.

This is what I find weird.

I would say it's the opposite situation.

What we're seeing is the effect of not having Howley there. Whatever people think of him, that disruption - and the fact SJ is clearly not free to do as he pleases in the role - means Wales are at a disadvantage. Considering that was the worst Welsh attacking performance I think I've seen other than maybe the odd game in the last 4 years, you have to say not having Howley is a negative.

I would expect - and hope - Wales produce an offloading game under SJ, and also start running a lot les diagonally, and much more straight. It's not 2005 nor is it 1978 again...you can't just spin it wide and hope for the best without holding defenders, and Wales just don't threaten the line enough.

All the more reason for getting Shingler involved in my opinion. One of the few who straightens up.

[Taylorman]

What? They didn't upset. Not sure you noticed but Wales won? Weird...

Get some hobbies, T Man?

Just saying, France ended up numero uno on the 'nearly upset list', all other matches were won with 32, 24 and 23- all easy wins.

Wales win by one, and that when France are ahead when they get red carded.

Once again, a lot of analysis not there.

Weird, nope. Its called not knowing what you're talking about.

Never underestimate France...Even Gats, who happens to be a kiwi, admitted the best team lost.

You somehow are unable to do that. Yet youre now off explaining it all again. Hilarious...

[Guest]

Even Gats, who happens to be a kiwi, admitted the best team lost.

What is wrong with you. Seriously, go and talk to a professional. Try and work out the underlying issue behind your nationalism. This isn't normal or healthy.

[Taylorman]

Even Gats, who happens to be a kiwi, admitted the best team lost.

What is wrong with you. Seriously, go and talk to a professional. Try and work out the underlying issue behind your nationalism. This isn't normal or healthy.

oops...touched a nerve...

[Guest]

Take the hint. I mean it.

[mikey_dragon]

you have to say not having Howley is a negative.

Some guff gets posted on here mind

[LondonTiger]

you have to say not having Howley is a negative.

Some guff gets posted on here mind

I think his argument was that Jones had been instructed to implement the Howley attacking plan. Thus you have a plan being coached by someone who does not believe in it. Can never work well.

Kind of like asking a Metallica tdibute band to pretend to be Bjorn Again.

[Guest]

Thanks LT. Nice to see some honest understanding instead of, well...

In terms of disruption, we've either got to go the whole hog - threaten to can the Ospreys, make Welsh rugby amateur again, turn Rodeny Parade in to a housing development - to really get that siege mentality that focuses the players' minds during key tournaments.

Howley's just one of those middling disruptions - an unspoken stain within the camp, a deep unhappiness with the coaches, an nfortunate situation of parachuting a man in to attempt to do his job and, seemingly, not doing it very well. There's not enough jeopardy, really. Sure, the attack looks awful, and the desire to play seems just as bad as it's ever been...but that's not enough!

Need to have everyones' livelihoods on the line if we want to win this RWC...

[gavstar]

As oracle says ,we're up too flat and getting smashed......this is Stephen Jones at the Scarlets.....flat to the line passing...ok in the premiership if you have front foot...but at this level its a no -no unless you've got someone coming in at pace from behind and always one on the shoulder. Jones is trying his version to the detriment of us abandoning the use of our defensive strengths ......our defence at times this campaign has been awful. Off loading ,running rugby is on everyones wish list.....but not NOW in a world cup when we haven't been doing it previously. Wales don't get armchair ride for the 10...we don't get good front foot ball.....so why anyone should think we can play in your face flat passing is madness. We ve been winning games with our defence....not pretty but it works. Changes will come gradually , what I ve seen so far of the jones influence we can expect worse to come .

[Guest]

Maybe you have a point there gavstar. I don't see too much difference between the Howley attack whatever SJ is implementing - I definitely don'tt think we're playing his attack plan top to bottom, for starters - but too many passes are being cut off and we're forcing it. Maybe there is an overplaying flat to the line, but without the actual pace/timing of players coming on to balls at the right time that hold defenders.

I still think the attack we saw today was almost identical to what he showed 4 years ago v Oz though. But maybe you do have a point.

[whocares]

Peyper WC could be over it seems - clearly not the sharpest thing for an international pro ref to do...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12278344

[Taylorman]

Yeah silly. That seems to put Peyper out and Barnes not consulting TMOs looks like a ploy that may backfire.

Owens is looking like finals material yet again with a confident display in the Ireland NZ match.

[maestegmafia]

Yeah silly. That seems to put Peyper out and Barnes not consulting TMOs looks like a ploy that may backfire.

Owens is looking like finals material yet again with a confident display in the Ireland NZ match.

id be pretty happy with Owens as the ref for the final.

[LondonTiger]

Yeah silly. That seems to put Peyper out and Barnes not consulting TMOs looks like a ploy that may backfire.

Owens is looking like finals material yet again with a confident display in the Ireland NZ match.

id be pretty happy with Owens as the ref for the final.

Really? Bearing in mind that would mean Wales would have lost to South Africa?

[Taylorman]

Yeah silly. That seems to put Peyper out and Barnes not consulting TMOs looks like a ploy that may backfire.

Owens is looking like finals material yet again with a confident display in the Ireland NZ match.

id be pretty happy with Owens as the ref for the final.

Really? Bearing in mind that would mean Wales would have lost to South Africa?

Snap!

Mind you, after the France match would much prefer Wales in the final if we get past England.

Must be a bit weird for Owens in his bid for another final, would he rather a Wales win to forfeit his personal milestone...I guess so.

[maestegmafia]

Yeah silly. That seems to put Peyper out and Barnes not consulting TMOs looks like a ploy that may backfire.

Owens is looking like finals material yet again with a confident display in the Ireland NZ match.

id be pretty happy with Owens as the ref for the final.

Really? Bearing in mind that would mean Wales would have lost to South Africa?

Snap!

If wales are out I’d be pretty happy with Owens refereeing the final. Having seen Nige refereeing welsh teams against Irish! Scots and Italians in the pro14 I definitely wouldn’t want him to referee us should we make the final even if it was within the tournament rules! He is doubly harsh on his nations teams.

Great referee. You invariably get a decent game when he’s in charge.

[Taylorman]

He’s the best of the current lot, though none of them have perfect runs. Google any top ref and you’ll inevitably find some unhappy customers.

[maestegmafia]

He’s the best of the current lot, though none of them have perfect runs. Google any top ref and you’ll inevitably find some unhappy customers.

No one is perfect but he stands head and shoulders above most.

[TightHEAD]

The final ref I fear will be French!

[Rugby Fan]

Peyper WC could be over it seems - clearly not the sharpest thing for an international pro ref to do...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12278344

That is an unbelievably crass thing to do, even if he didn't envisage it going up on social media.

[No 7&1/2]

Meh. Just a jokey photo.

[TightHEAD]

Really, its what Rugby is all about.

[mikey_dragon]

Peyper WC could be over it seems - clearly not the sharpest thing for an international pro ref to do...
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=12278344

Not a good idea, clearly intoxicated but that doesn't excuse it. Funny how the same French figurehead who was the first to criticise it had f'all to say about Seb's elbow . Typical French.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

Yeah Wainwright didn’t do great on the one try, but I also thought Ball (I think) should’ve hit higher too. Then Wainwright’s half tackle would’ve been Moreno effective possibly. Not trying to excuse the tackle really, just my opinion.

Was Moreno ever effective?

[RiscaGame]

Haha.

There's a definite lag when I use my phone, with this site. As a result, I am getting weird auto corrects or text predictions. I am blaming that.

[mikey_dragon]

you have to say not having Howley is a negative.

Some guff gets posted on here mind

I think his argument was that Jones had been instructed to implement the Howley attacking plan. Thus you have a plan being coached by someone who does not believe in it. Can never work well.

Kind of like asking a Metallica tdibute band to pretend to be Bjorn Again.

Not sure that's the case. The game against France in particular was down to individual error and some stupid play. North and Parkes especially, just silly and risky play when it was unnecessary and it kept handing possession back to France who were using it particularly well. I think the French had their tactics spot on, so it was disappointing to see Biggar keep playing into their hands, it kept handing them the advantage. Wales' kick-chase wasn't working. Medard was pinning us back, whilst their wingers and Fickou were gaining a lot of ground by running it back at us - kicking from the Wales halfbacks gave them the space they needed to work in. There surely has to be a point when they say "okay this isn't working, let's do something else." You wouldn't want to play those tactics against NZ now would you, after seeing what their back 3 did to Ireland.

[mikey_dragon]

I thought Jake Ball was more worthy than Wainwright tbh.

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