Scotland 6 Nations Thread

[Highland Shaun]

First topic message reminder :

With the 6N fast approaching, I thought I'd be the first to start a thread for it, my team being Scotland because its my nationality lol.

First of all, we know that Danny Wilson won't be coaching as he's off to coach Glasgow plus there are rumours of Matt Taylor the assistant going with Rennie to Australia so that leaves a couple of vacancies available, hopefully after the 6N, the main head coach one will be available too, which I would suspect Richard Cockerill would be the outright fav for, but that's a topic for after the 6N.

So, who would you like to see be in our 6N squad, are there any new caps that are likely, are there any players possibly getting recalls or would we likely see any younger players get a shot.

This is the place to discuss so go ahead .

[RDW]

I'll make one

It'll  be atrocious but it'll be done

[Tramptastic]

https://www.606v2.com/t69387-ireland-vs-scotland-6-nations-saturday-1st-february-2020-match-thread#3881621

Enjoy

[tigertattie]

I'll make one

It'll  be atrocious but it'll be done

All good tramp. Only threads created by Glasgow supporters where they make wild claims such as “Glasgow will again win the pro 14” and “Glasgow will win the 1872 cup” and “Glasgow aren’t just a bunch of hair gel wearing, fake tanned pretty boys, we’re a Rugby team” are considered atrocious

[R!skysports]

Can not see past another disappointing 6 nations, with the usual mix of could of, should of, didn't

I am set and ready for it, with my emergency beer supply

[Gooseberry]

On top of the fiasco with Russell Im reading that Hogg went begging to be made captain. Sounds like an absolute basket case of egos at Scotland currently.

[R!skysports]

On top of the fiasco with Russell Im reading that Hogg went begging to be made captain. Sounds like an absolute basket case of egos at Scotland currently.

Reading the story, it hardly sounds like begging

More like he relished the opportunity to lead Scotland and wanted to make a difference - which I 100% support

[George Carlin]

GC isn't very regular these days alas. Too busy and important swimming in all his middle eastern lawyering money!

[bsando]

GC isn't very regular these days alas. Too busy and important swimming in all his middle eastern lawyering money!

[tigertattie]

GC isn't very regular these days alas. Too busy and important swimming in all his middle eastern lawyering money!

True but

[tigertattie]

Anyway. Back the rugger

As not to continue to flood the Ireland vs Scotland thread with all Scotland chat. What are folk thinking with all this Russell nonsense?

Is this the adversity the team needs to make them gel together or is this the cracks showing and the team are going to fall apart?

If this is the last championship for toonie. Who comes in to replace him? Cockers would lick the boys into shape but is he a more of a great club man rather than an international coach? Who else is there though? And if anyone says Jake white, go sit on the naughty step

[NeilyBroon]

Sean Lineen may be a solid, if unspectacular choice but solidity may be what we need. Pat Lam may want an international gig and would suit our playing style. I can't imagine the likes of Scott Robertson wanting the job with Scotland in their present state. If cockers continues to learn to be more flexible he may be a good option, provided he doesnt bring Hodge with him. Much as I dislike the man, EJ could do a job but would be far too expensive and wouldnt touch Scotland, although maybe he wants another challenge like Japan, he did show quite good understanding of what is wrong with the Scottish game in an article last year, who knows.

I expect realistically we'll see Cockers take over though. I can't imagine Toonie surviving this tournament, maybe even being pushed before the end and having an interim installed. Other coaches seem to respect Cockers and he has had a lot of success at club with Leicester. As I said, provided Hodge doesnt join him I'd be happy enough. My expectations since vern have significantly lowered.

[jimbopip]

Anyway. Back the rugger

As not to continue to flood the Ireland vs Scotland thread with all Scotland chat. What are folk thinking with all this Russell nonsense?

Is this the adversity the team needs to make them gel together or is this the cracks showing and the team are going to fall apart?

If this is the last championship for toonie. Who comes in to replace him? Cockers would lick the boys into shape Is that an incentive scheme the Luvvies employ? It could get you into more trouble then Sarries and the salary cap.

but is he a more of a great club man rather than an international coach? Does he take the boys out clubbing before or after he licks them into the required shape?

TT, you do realise that you put "gel" and "Cockers" into the same post? That alone should be a fine.

Let's wait until the hardest working, hardest attacking defending, fastestess rugby playing side in the whole wide world win the Grand Slam and then talk about Toonie's future.

OR
Week 1 gubbed in Dublin

Week 2 With no Batman to upset them during the warm up England stop cowering behind the ref and thrash us soundly.

Week 2 & 1/2 Hodge announced as new Head coach. Dan Parks new defence coach and Nick De Looknohands announced as skills coach.

[Highland Shaun]

For me, Richard Cockerill would be a solid, if unspectacular choice.

It's a no from me to ex players such as Sean Lineen, Todd Blackadder or Bryan Redpath and certainly no to unrealistic options such as Gatland, White or Scott Robertson.

Imho, it has to be a Southern Hemisphere coach as, bar RC, there isn't really a capable Brit capable.

Oh and no to Stuart Lancaster as well, our last Englishman was dire, and that's not me being racist or anti English, it's the honest truth.

[Eejit]

Mark McCall would be ace if he didn't fancy a year in the English Championship. Realistically though I'm expecting to be underwhelmed.

[BigGee]

Oh and no to Stuart Lancaster as well, our last Englishman was dire, and that's not me being racist or anti English, it's the honest truth.

Lancaster is actually SQ!

Played for Scottish University I believe and his son has played for our u18s

[Highland Shaun]

It's still a no to him.

[Tramptastic]

It's still a no to him.

Why though? He's head coach of the best side in leinster who are undefeated domestically and in Europe!

Robinson is seen as a bit of cowboy these days but nobody seems to have anything but good words for Lancaster

I'd have him as scotland coach in a heartbeat!

[RDW]

I'd go Pat Lam - he's all about culture in a team and loves attacking rugby. He's coached underdogs all his career and done bloody well out of them - that's exactly what we are.

The only thing with him, like Cockers, is they're best suited to the day to day grind of club coaching. Will he be suited to the international environment?

[bsando]

We couldn't complain if Townsend failed and Lancaster got the Scotland job after the 6N. I had no idea about his Scottish connections but that's a positive. Cockerill would be a good choice too and would be the obvious choice really, he's done well with Edinburgh and I like his work ethic and no nonsense attitude.

International coaching wise... Cheika is available I believe but would be a poor choice in my opinion. Someone with links to Scotland like Matt Proudfoot or Dan McFarland could be good choices.

[tigertattie]

Cheika, no, poison challice that is

Lancaster, no, shown he's not an international coach, he's also not even the head coach of Leinster, Cullen is.

Gatland wouldnt touch us with a Bardge Pole, he's only looking for chusy jobs now until hes called for the ABs job. I'd not want Gatland anyway, not suited to us.

Jamie Joseph would be my shout, but would he want to leave the high life in Japan to sit in a cold and miserable Murrayfield?

[RDW]

Cheika, no, poison challice that is

Lancaster, no, shown he's not an international coach, he's also not even the head coach of Leinster, Cullen is.

Gatland wouldnt touch us with a Bardge Pole, he's only looking for chusy jobs now until hes called for the ABs job. I'd not want Gatland anyway, not suited to us.

Jamie Joseph would be my shout, but would he want to leave the high life in Japan to sit in a cold and miserable Murrayfield?

To be fair to him that was 5 years ago and I'm sure he's learnt a lot since then!

[bsando]

Joseph is contracted with Japan until next World Cup

[bsando]

Ideally we’d want a coach who could adapt to the Scottish style of rugby. I’d hate to see Scotland return to the kicking set piece drudgery of the 2000’s. 

Hopefully though, Townsend will bring good results this 6N and we won’t need a new coach at all. I like Townsend but think he’s got to recognise his mistakes (Russell related or otherwise) and show he’s learning. The first big challenge is Ireland and showing Scottish fans mistakes from the 27-3 RWC humiliation have been learnt.

[TJ]

Coaches. We are only every going to get a) an up and coming coach, B) a second rate coach C) a patriotic scot ( or in townsends case all 3)

I would go for pinching an ambitious young coach from the super 15. Its a great opportunity for a young coach with an eye on a big job. Do well with Scotland then "what a great coach he is" do badly " well it was Scotland - what chance did he have" We know that the last couple of years Scotland have been below their potential. a coach who unlocks that and takes Scotland on a good run to the next WC and a decent place in the WC would then have a great CV for a top job

[No 7&1/2]

I appreciate this is the straw which broke the camels back in relation to Townsend but I am slightly surprised at how little stick Russel is getting. England have had a few instances similar tuilagi and Teo. And fights teo and Brown which were dealt with in similar fashion.
I can only imagine what the reaction would be had this story been about Farrell!

[TJ]

 

.................. I like Townsend but think he’s got to recognise his mistakes .

He has already shown he is not learning. We went backwards in the 6N under him and he repeated the same mistakes in the WC

[TJ]

I appreciate this is the straw which broke the camels back in relation to Townsend but I am slightly surprised at how little stick Russel is getting. England have had a few instances similar tuilagi and Teo.  And fights teo and Brown which were dealt with in similar fashion.
I can only imagine what the reaction would be had this story been about Farrell!

I think the difference is we know that Russell is a good guy, a model professional thus we doubt its all down to Russell being an arse.

Of course we do not know the whole truth but thats my take on it. I think Russell was pushed until he broke. Not that he was a primadonna!

[Tramptastic]

I appreciate this is the straw which broke the camels back in relation to Townsend but I am slightly surprised at how little stick Russel is getting. England have had a few instances similar tuilagi and Teo.  And fights teo and Brown which were dealt with in similar fashion.
I can only imagine what the reaction would be had this story been about Farrell!

It's because he's been the best 10 Scotland have produced since Townsend - no-one wants to boot him out the squad because the fear is we are doomed without him

As most of the posters have noted above, we are all hoping Hastings has a really good game which would mean we are less reliant on Russell, would encourage him to realise he isn't the alpha to omega of Scottish rugby.

That offsideline article that RDW posted about the team climate/culture is interesting though - Russell maybe protesting the lack of downtime especially off of the back of some pretty hefty european games? Is Townsend too involved on a micro-management level?

[No 7&1/2]

Fair enough TJ I only know the snippets that have come out but doesnt sound like theres much defence.

[No 7&1/2]

Yeah I get that to an extent tramptastic. Difficult position for the coach to be in though. We've seen high profile players given extra leeway in the past. Sometimes works.

[NeilyBroon]

I think those of us who proportion blame to Toonie attribute the downward trend the national team have been on to him. Rightly or wrongly, the buck stops with the head coach. Russell may have been an erse but I honestly can't have seen this happening with VC, a coach who quietly got on with the business and had the players respect. Toonie put himself forward, he wanted his chance to make a mark, he saw the opportunity with these players. The fact he was all but self anointed to me suggests its always been about his achievements, his coaching, his ascendency to the top tier of international coaches. It is clear that this has backfired, however, and his ego has come back to bite him at a key point in his career.

I said it at the WC and last years 6Ns, I have not seen the Scotland players so dejected and lacking confidence since Robinson in 2012. Toonie hasnt learnt and isnt willing to, the more Scotland struggle the more he tries to control. He doesnt recognise the need for structured play outside of kicking, the players play impatient rugby, exactly the same as when he was attack coach in 2012, the only difference being the players are now more skilled so it occasionally comes off. He refuses to get any help with our attack despite us clearly needing some because he is the attacking mastermind. As a Scot I want him to succeed, despite what I think of him as a person but all I see is a gentile Andy Robinson, mixed in with shades of Hadden. The worst mistake the SRU have made amongst all their terrible decisions was dropping Cotter, a man who's philosophy was perfect for Scotland, and who genuinely cared about the success of the team, not just his CV.

Agree with RDW that Pat Lam may be best choice but he'll have a nice gig at Bristol so can't imagine him swapping the West country for a discontented Scotland. It'll be Cockers, all his interviews imply a good amount of involvement in international player development and he definitely seems to be subtly plumping himself up for the job. God knows who else would take it if we have another stinker. As I said my worst fear with cockers is if he takes Hodge with him, a surefire way to make our attack worse.

[123456789.]

I think this idea that we can only attract second rate coaches is basically completely incorrect. Remember Glasgow managed to get Dave Rennie over when he was considered one of rugby's hot properties. If you're a New Zealander (Scott Robertson) who has proven himself in the domestic league and still not got the top job, where do you go? It's not that we haven't got the money to go and get a top class guy in (or at least it's not that Mark Dodson has not got the money).

The options that I can think of are:
A. Cockerill - The most likely option, he won't cost too much as he's already employed and he knows the Edinburgh players. The downside being, I'd be reticent about promoting him from Edinburgh in the middle of the rebuild and before he's actually won anything with Edinburgh.
B. Cotter - A sort of back-to-the-future job. I think most people would be delighted with this. I think he's leaving Montpellier come the end of the year. Whether Dodson would have the courage to go back and whether Cotter would want to are different issues
C. Robertson - A sort of Townsend+++ option. A young talented coach who's been successful in his domestic league. Probably wouldn't be available until Autumn. My personal choice, I'd let him choose his price.
D. European domestic stalwarts - Rob Baxter there's no chance. I think he'll be at Exeter for the duration. Mark McCall would be interesting, perhaps tempted to jump ship from Saracens. Lancaster could be tempted, but he sounds like he's perfectly happy where he is. I think it's too similar to the Andy Robinson situation. The other option would be the Ulster head coach who had been at Scotland. He seems to have turned them around and knows the Scottish game. Incidentally his departure predated the downfall.

[BigGee]

I think we have all got our doubts about Toonie and he certainly has got an awful lot to prove, but I am a little disconcerted about the level of criticism and speculation about his future that is going on prior to the tournament even starting.

I for one actually want Toonie and the team to do well and have a good tournament. Him settling into the role and getting the players to perform to their abilities and gain some confidence in each other is actually the best option for us. Changing coaches is not going to be an instant solution, or perhaps even a solution at all. Look how long it took VC to get the team firing, he was certainly no instant success and look how coaches previous to him struggled, albeit with an inferior group of players.

It is not all down to the coach either, the players need to take a lot of responsibility for this as well and Russell should not be let off the hook. Going back to the WC, the game against Japan was there to be won in the second half when we got on top but it was the players that did not take the opportunity.

If we have another poor tournament, then yes, these conversations need to be had, but I do think they need to be put to bed for the moment.

[NeilyBroon]

I think it wouldnt have been inconceivable post-Cotter when the foundations were there but like Glasgow were before Rennie joined I cant see anything beyond a hash up being left, leaving our future coach back down the bottom of the mountain with a lot of very dejected players. I think it may be a challenge for the right coach but cant see people rushing to put their CV in. We've also lost a lot of the super league connection with SJs departure, so with Mallinder as DoR I can see, if not Cockers, that it'll be a prem based appointment. Someone like Diamond from Sale or perhaps even someone like Dean Richards wouldnt surprise me. Mark McCall would be nice but I think he's pretty loyal to Sarries, plus even if he wasnt there'll be rich French clubs knocking I reckon.

[bsando]

 

.................. I like Townsend but think he’s got to recognise his mistakes .

He has already shown he is not learning.  We went backwards in the 6N under him and he repeated the same mistakes in the WC

The 2018 6N was a more settled squad, in 2019 Scotland introduced younger players and there were inevitable unforced errors. Wilson was also introduced after McFarland left for Ulster. So there were a lot of variables at play for the poor showing rather than simply Townsend and his tactics. The RWC was disappointing though. The Ireland match for me was when questions regarding Townsends position should have begun to be asked. Failing so spectacularly on the opening game of the RWC was a huge kick in the guts for fans. I'll judge Toonie once the final whistle in Cardiff has blown on March the 14th.

[NeilyBroon]

Respect your point Biggee and agree that what all of us would like to see is Scotland do well whoever coaches them but I feel Toonie has just proved his critics right time and time again. Yes, one swallow does not a summer make, but its been a year and a half of p*ss poor performances and our worst world cup, possibly even worse than 2011. I think its perfectly reasonable to be discussing the future as this 6 nations is Toonie's last chance to save his job. Fair enough if he wins 3 games in charge but 2 or less and poor performances across the board and he will likely be gone. I think we all agree that given our form the likely outcome is he'll be gone unless a miracle happens.

Yes, Vern took a season to settle in, but when he did the difference was positive. 2 years of Toonie and the trend has been overwhelmingly negative. Far more "should haves" than "did".

[BigGee]

 

.................. I like Townsend but think he’s got to recognise his mistakes .

He has already shown he is not learning.  We went backwards in the 6N under him and he repeated the same mistakes in the WC

The 2018 6N was a more settled squad, in 2019 Scotland introduced younger players and there were inevitable unforced errors. Wilson was also introduced after McFarland left for Ulster. So there were a lot of variables at play for the poor showing rather than simply Townsend and his tactics. The RWC was disappointing though. The Ireland match for me was when questions regarding Townsends position should have begun to be asked. Failing so spectacularly on the opening game of the RWC was a huge kick in the guts for fans. I'll judge Toonie once the final whistle in Cardiff has blown on March the 14th.

That's my feeling as well, judge him after the tournament. Keep behind him for now.

[TJ]

Numbers - Glasgow IS one of the top club teams - maybe in the top 20 in the world of clubs. Genuine chance to win things but with room to improve

Scotland is NOT one on the top international jobs. virtually zero chance of winning silverware

[123456789.]

Numbers - Glasgow IS one of the top club teams - maybe in the top 20 in the world of clubs.  Genuine chance to win things but with room to improve

Scotland is NOT one on the top international jobs.  virtually zero chance of winning silverware

I think the idea that Glasgow is a bigger job than Scotland is off the mark. In terms of Europe Glasgow are probably between 5 and 12th depending on their form and the teams around them. Scotland probably occupy that same sphere in international rugby. However if you coach Scotland you coach against the best players in the world almost every time you play. The Six Nations is unique in rugby in that it sells out big, big stadiums every week throughout the tournament. There is no annual tournament that does that. Realistically if you're a New Zealander looking to put yourself in the shop window for the All Blacks job history tells us you need to have had international involvement. If that means a head coach role that narrows you down to a very select cohort. There are Ten Top Tier jobs (11 if you include Japan), of them South Africa, France and Argentina are unlikely to plump for a foreigner. The Australia job probably means you have to craft a side that could potentially beat New Zealand regularly and do so in a way that doesn't cause such bad blood as to make a cross over impossible. Realistically if you wanted to prove yourself in international rugby I'd say we are currently the plum job.

We crashed out at the group stage, there's low expectations over the next four years. Unlike Italy we have the raw materials of a very good side, certainly a competitive one. It's English speaking so it's easily adaptable. The structure of the SRU is set up toward the national side. Wales and Ireland both have contracted head coaches through to the world cup. If you're Scott Robertson, a three year contract to take a tier one side through to the world cup is probably going to tempt you.

This is all academic anyway, we're all going to look rather silly when Townsend brings home the Grand slam having convinced Finn Russell to come back to hold the tackle pads and clean the boots.

[TJ]

I would also say with regards to Rennie and Glasgow - its not the end of his ambitions - its a springboard to better things as has been proven.

With our national team this is even more true - an ambitious coach will use coaching scotland to go on to better things

for Cockers Edinburgh is rehabilitation as a coach after a couple of sackings. He then found he is really enjoying it. I do not see him wanting the Scotland job.

I really think we want someone like Joseph. an experienced club coach with no baggage from scotland who will use a WC cycle with Scotland to push themselves into a top job. so that is where I would be looking. I do not know where the talent is but in the super 15 there must be someone.

[funnyExiledScot]

Numbers - Glasgow IS one of the top club teams - maybe in the top 20 in the world of clubs.  Genuine chance to win things but with room to improve

Scotland is NOT one on the top international jobs.  virtually zero chance of winning silverware

Fact check: Glasgow come 2nd in the two horse race that is Scottish club rugby.

The Scotland job is unquestionably higher profile, and if you can convince Russell not to be a complete Alex Salmond, potential to be a very decent side. Picture this side in a year or so:

1.Schoeman 2.McInally 3.Fagerson 4.J Gray 5.R Gray 6.Ritchie 7.Watson 8.Bradbury 9.Horne 10.Russell 11.Duhan 12.Taylor 13.Jones 14.Graham 15.Hogg

16.Sutherland 17.Brown 18.Berghan 19.Cummings 20.Skinner 21.Shiel 22.Hastings 23.Kinghorm

With a decent coaching team we could take down a few sides with this, and certainly better than the current vibe of "let's hope we beat Italy".

[tigertattie]

What coach wants to work under Dodson though?

“What’s that you say? I’m being replaced by an unproven coach at international level because he’s threatened to begger off somewhere else with his toys if you don’t give him the top job even though I’m currently handing you the best set of results you’ve seen since Jim telfer was in nappies?”

Dodson, for all his business/monetary acumen is slowly but surely killing off all credibility the SRU has around the globe.

We’ll end up with Peter Wright at this rate

[NeilyBroon]

I hear Matt Williams is on the market. Michael Bradley will manage defense. Dean Ryan will return as a consultant coach for our forwards and all will be right with the world when we get knocked out of 2023 by uruguay in round 2.

[bsando]

Vern Cotter is the new head coach of Fiji. Guess he has unfinished business at international level

[NeilyBroon]

Delighted for them, worried the next time we face them. An organised fiji is a terrifying prospect!

[RDW]

Delighted for them, worried the next time we face them. An organised fiji is a terrifying prospect!

To be fair many coaches have tried and failed! They should have smasehd it at the world cup - their strongest squad ever full of global stars and had more preparation than they ever had before. But lost to Uruguay...

[Eejit]

Closer to home for him too. Good appointment.

[NeilyBroon]

Aye vern deserves a nice coaching position. Considering how good he is its a shame how hes been batted about so much

[R!skysports]

I appreciate this is the straw which broke the camels back in relation to Townsend but I am slightly surprised at how little stick Russel is getting. England have had a few instances similar tuilagi and Teo.  And fights teo and Brown which were dealt with in similar fashion.
I can only imagine what the reaction would be had this story been about Farrell!

I think the difference is we know that Russell is a good guy, a model professional thus we doubt its all down to Russell being an arse.

Of course we do not know the whole truth but thats my take on it.  I think Russell was pushed until he broke.  Not that he was a primadonna!

Really - sounds like he is and he was

Carrying on drinking is bad enough. Not even turning up for training - now that is really serious and shows he does not respect the team or his team mates

I am sure there are tensions and the overall tensions between him and Townsend might be a joint blame (or all Townsends - who knows) - but this incident sounds like it is 100% Russels doing and is showing him in a terrible light

[EWT Spoons]

I appreciate this is the straw which broke the camels back in relation to Townsend but I am slightly surprised at how little stick Russel is getting. England have had a few instances similar tuilagi and Teo.  And fights teo and Brown which were dealt with in similar fashion.
I can only imagine what the reaction would be had this story been about Farrell!

I think the difference is we know that Russell is a good guy, a model professional thus we doubt its all down to Russell being an arse.

Of course we do not know the whole truth but thats my take on it.  I think Russell was pushed until he broke.  Not that he was a primadonna!

Really - sounds like he is and he was

Carrying on drinking is bad enough. Not even turning up for training - now that is really serious and shows he does not respect the team or his team mates

I am sure there are tensions and the overall tensions between him and Townsend might be a joint blame (or all Townsends - who knows) - but this incident sounds like it is 100% Russels doing and is showing him in a terrible light

This. All of this

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