Saxons Vs Tonga and the World Cup Training Squad

5 match-points for the Saxons, who will now meet Canada in the Cup Final. 3 penalty tries for England from the scrum, one from Jordan Crane and one from Billy Twelvetrees (who will finish the match in the sin bin). England 41-14 Tonga (24-0 at half-time). Good performance by the Saxons against inferior opposition. Tonga's set-piece was non-existant, and they couldn't really get their hands on the ball. Tonga had the final say in this match with a consolatory second try, but you can't see them harming either New Zealand or France in the upcoming World Cup. Paul Hodgson awarded man of the match by Sky for his game management and organisation.

I think Matt Stevens will definitely be in the World Cup Training Squad (announced on Monday 20th June), and should go to the World Cup with Corbisiero, Cole and one of Sheridan, Wilson or Doran-Jones. Stevens and Corbisiero give us two versatile props in the squad, while Cole is probably nailed on as the first choice tight-head. I also don't think Sheridan is an automatic pick anymore.

I think Attwood should be in the World Cup squad ahead of the tiring Shaw, as I don't think Shaw could do 80 minutes of test rugby anymore, so I think Attwood should definitely be in the Training squad.

Others who have impressed are Tom Johnson, Henry Trinder, Charlie Sharples and Alex Goode. Johnson and Goode would definitely make my Training Squad now, while the Gloucester duo are doing themselves no harm.

robbo277 wrote:... I also don't think Sheridan is an automatic pick anymore.

I think Attwood should be in the World Cup squad ahead of the tiring Shaw, as I don't think Shaw could do 80 minutes of test rugby anymore, so I think Attwood should definitely be in the Training squad.

Others who have impressed are Tom Johnson, Henry Trinder, Charlie Sharples and Alex Goode. Johnson and Goode would definitely make my Training Squad now, while the Gloucester duo are doing themselves no harm.

I couldn't agree more robbo.

It's going to be difficult to judge players when the opposition seems clueless half time 24- 0

Matt Stevens has a major point to prove and he is undoubtedly a good prop, but it's hard when up against poor scrums to really show what you can do.

Agree Cymro and Notch, but a lot of these players have had good season and are doing what is required of them. They at least deserve a place in the training squad.

Stevens certainly does.

Stevens has outscrummaged the opposition, ran rampant around the park. Its been an incredible few months for Stevens, glad he's playing well. Should make the squad.

Really pleased for Stevens.

He's a great example of someone who makes a mistake and then sorts himself out without feeling sorry for himself or blaming others. I've read some really good interviews with him in the press and he comes across very well.

As others have said, some good Saxons performances albeit against fairly limited opposition.

I wasn't in the country for the Barbarians match, how did Carl Fearns get on? Might we see him come into the Saxons squad for Narraway now he is out for the tournament?

We've only got 4 backrowers at present, and given his struggles with injury this season, not sure Crane should be playing every match. I know Gibson can play at 8, but he prefers the flank doesn't he?

Crane's control at the base of the scrum is really something else. Not as easy as he makes it looks, and now the Tongans have a front row in the sin-bin.

Stevens is got away with murder there for the yellow, he was boring right into the tongan hooker, but I suppose when you're on top all game you'll get away with more

For me, the following players are on the plane:

Corbisiero, Cole, Stevens
Hartley, Thompson
Deacon, Lawes, Palmer
Croft, Easter, Haskell, Moody
Care, Youngs
Flood, Wilkinson
Hape, Tindall
Ashton, Banahan, Cueto, Foden

To that we need to add a prop, a hooker, 0/1 locks, 1/2 back rows, 1 scrum half, 1 player who can cover 10 (either another 10 or an outside back who can cover 10) and 2 other outside backs.

I think we should therefore be looking at:
Props: Doran-Jones, Sheridan, Wilson
Hookers: Chuter, Mears
Second rows: Attwood, Kitchener, Shaw
Back rows: Crane, Johnson, Robshaw, Wood
Scrum-halves: Simpson, Hodgson
Fly-halves: Hodgson
Centres: Allen, Tuilagi
Back three: Brown, Goode, Simpson-Daniel

I believe that gives us 42 players and I think the maximum allowed is 50. I think this number of players gives us options in terms of personell and playing-styles, and also squad structure. I'd then look to cut it to around 35 in time for the World Cup warm-ups in August, and obviously 30 for the final World Cup squad.

Mike Brown,Alex Goode,Henry Trinder, Charlie Sharples, Matt Stevens,Tom Johnson,Jordan Crane. Should all be in the England training squad.

A consumate performance from the Saxons, mature and professional. Given the conditions and the potential for Tonga to mix it up, the Saxons barely put a foot wrong, they kept the ball moving when it was on, they kicked sensibly, dominated the set piece and generally starved Tonga of any ball.

There are a number of players in this squad that are knocking on the WC door:

Stevens - so glad he's put his problems behind him, I was gutted when it all came out and he left Bath, but he's going from strength to strength and all power to him for that. A definite for NZ for me.

Attwood - plenty of juice in the loose, a good grafter and lineout option, but still has work to do. Training squad definite, but could be a world cup too soon.

Crane - Led well, great footballer, grafted for the full 80 but difficult to see him dislodging any of the first team. Training squad definite, WC possible, but only as cover.

Johnson - Carried very well, constant menace in the loose and got plenty of gainline success, great prospect. Training squad definite but the backrow is extremely competetive 1st XV wise, so difficult to see how he'll make the trip to NZ.

Hodgson - Played a blinder, bossed his pack about and set the tempo well, good decision making and Saxons structure fell apart a bit when he came off. Training squad definite, but too late for NZ I think.

Difficult to be objective about the backs on today's game as they had little opportunity to shine, but Sharples is a possible for training squad, as are Trinder and Goode, can't see Clegg easing Hodgson out of the third 10 spot, but he will be a force to be reckoned with for 2015.

Such a shame Tuilagi had a brain fart against Saints, that act of stupidity has probably cost him a chance at the WC squad.

By the way, who unceremoniously tipped Poite out of the wrong side of his bed this morning?

Tonga seem to have slipped quite far behind Fiji and Samoa dont they.

They looked pretty poor to be fair Alyn, amateurish really. It's a shame as there's obviously plenty of potential there.

It's about time the IRB started fixing a small levy against international fixtures with the proceeds to go into supporting 2nd tier and emerging nations representative sides.

50p on a ticket wouldn't break the bank and would not upset your genuine rugby fan if they knew it was going directly and entirely into developing the game in these areas.

One Twickenham sellout would raise £40,000 which could pay for a couple of full-time support staff for a team like Tonga, or maybe go a long way to paying for a tour?

PJHolybloke wrote:They looked pretty poor to be fair Alyn, amateurish really. It's a shame as there's obviously plenty of potential there.

It's about time the IRB started fixing a small levy against international fixtures with the proceeds to go into supporting 2nd tier and emerging nations representative sides.

50p on a ticket wouldn't break the bank and would not upset your genuine rugby fan if they knew it was going directly and entirely into developing the game in these areas.

One Twickenham sellout would raise £40,000 which could pay for a couple of full-time support staff for a team like Tonga, or maybe go a long way to paying for a tour?

the IRB have already priced most countries out of hosting future World Cups simply because theywant to hugely invest in the World Game, I dont think they could realisticaly do much more.
Secondly teams will be forced to tour these kinds of countries now.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2037367.html

SCHEDULE HIGHLIGHTS:
- Return to Test Series
- Opening the door to midweek Tour matches against representative or club sides
- Return of Tours to the Pacific Islands, North America and Japan
- Integrated Tier 2 schedule
- No change to the limit of Test matches under Regulation 9

I'm aware Wales have been forced into doing these tours in the future.

2011 New Zealand - Rugby World Cup
2012 Australia
2013 Japan Tour (British and Irish Lions tour)
2014 South Africa
2015 UK Rugby World Cup
2016 New Zealand
2017 Pacific Islands (British and Irish Lions tour)
2018 Argentina
2019 Japan - Rugby World Cup

I'd be very surprised if Johnson didn't opt for established experience and take Sheridan and Shaw (is Deacon definitely going to be fit to go?). Flutey will probably be flying to NZ for the same reason (Barritt would be my choice there).

Croft, Moody, Easter, Haskell, Wood will almost certainly be the backrowers taken. The lack of an out-and-out fetcher worries me.

Johnson will stick with Strettle, he doesn't change personnel lighlty. I hope he doesn't stick with Armitage though. Brown is the best performing FB after Foden, but I think his lack of positional versatility might count against him. Goode is in with a solid chance. The surprise pick might be Abendanon, who covers wing the best, is capable of adding a spark from the bench and Johnson has already called him up to the squad a few times this season.

Alyn, that's all good news for the game as a whole, but can you really see Tier 1 unions sending their best players on tours to North America, the Pacific Islands and Japan?

If we assume they wont, will that necessarily help put bums on seats for these tour test matches?

The problem as I see it is mostly in the PI's, they have bags of potential and a great rugby heritage (relatively speaking) that guarantees an interest in the game, but they have no money for developing the game in their own backyards.

Touring is all well and good at an aesthetic level, it looks great on paper and looks like a step in the right direction development-wise, I'm just not so sure it will generate 100% committment amongst the Tier 1 nations when it comes to Tier 2 tours. I just think it would be easier and most expedient to fund them from a test match levy.

What does Mike Brown have to do to get in the Engalnd squad? I know Goode has talent and deserves the attention he receives, but Brown has been more consistent, more reliable, AND more dangerous with the ball in hand.

The only issues people have ever seemed to have with him are his temper and his pace. Well, this season he's been ice cool and demonstrated perfect self-control, and I have no idea how anyone can think he's not fast enough. I don't know what the official stats for the premiership are, but I've not seen anyone consistently beat as many defenders as Brown has this season: it's almost a certainty that he'll break the first tackle and gain ground every time he gets the ball. If I could pick one player to be added to the WC squad it would be Mike Brown.

Count

I think the major problem is a lack of versatility. This wouldn't be an issue if he was first choice, but in a smaller squad I'm not sure if he'll make it.

As I said, I would have him in my training squad along with Foden and Alex Goode. It's not quite a straight shoot-out between Brown and Goode though in my opinion, we could take Hodgson as a third choice 10 and use Cueto's versatility to cover 15.

Countnefarious wrote:What does Mike Brown have to do to get in the Engalnd squad? I know Goode has talent and deserves the attention he receives, but Brown has been more consistent, more reliable, AND more dangerous with the ball in hand.

The only issues people have ever seemed to have with him are his temper and his pace. Well, this season he's been ice cool and demonstrated perfect self-control, and I have no idea how anyone can think he's not fast enough. I don't know what the official stats for the premiership are, but I've not seen anyone consistently beat as many defenders as Brown has this season: it's almost a certainty that he'll break the first tackle and gain ground every time he gets the ball. If I could pick one player to be added to the WC squad it would be Mike Brown.

Good points Count, but I think when it comes to Brown it's more about the lack of "flair" pehaps? I'm neither here nor there when it comes down to having a pre-formed opinion on his England credentials, I think it would be fair to say that he certainly wouldn't let the team down, and as you've pointed out above, he's made great improvements on his temperament and pace this season.

It may just come down to the fact that at test level it's all about inches not yards, the ability to turn nothing into something and to see the wood through the trees, maybe Brown gives the impression that he has to work harder to achieve the same things that other players do with what appears to be little effort?

I can't say I'd be disappointed to see him in the squad, but I just can't see him in the squad.

I think that England have built a rod for our own back here. The two Kiwi centres have been crocked and are in very poor form, Mike Tindall is being held together with superglue (and is passed it) and Banahan is extremely unproven at centre. Yet up until now the like of Anthony Allen, Jordan Turner-Hall, Brad Barritt, George Lowe, (all of whom have had superior seasons to the incumbents) have been ignored. I know that you could say that the likes of Trinder, JTH and 36 have been given a chance in the Churchill Cup, but to me it is too little, too late.

I’m not saying that Johnson doesn’t give the younger guys a chance or is unwilling to change things, because with the introduction of the like of Cole, Corbisero, Lawes and Youngs et al, I would be wrong. It’s the persistence of retaining plodding donkeys like Tindall and Cueto (who I’ve long supported) that I find mystifying.

What is the point of retaining Shaw? What can he do that some of the younger players can’t? Dave Attwood or Mouritz Botha could supply power, George Skivington could run the lineout and George Robson, Christian Day or Graham Kitchener give you the best of both worlds.

On the plus side surely theres no deabte about the fat south african drug fiend going to the world cup. If Henson had spent more time playing Judo and less dancing maybe he'd be looking sharp too.

For Attwood theres still a question over temprement. The lock slots are open, especially as Deacons fitness is questionable. Lawes and Palmer will go, but Shaw? Hes a beast but can he sustain the required workrate for 80- minutes at top international level (no, but then neither can Lawes if he runs round like a headless chicken for the first 40).
Gaskells done his reputation no harm either but hes unlikely to be in the frame.

Cranes done well but Id be amazed if he got into the final squad. Could make the rtraining one though, unlucky for narraway to get injured hwne he did. It would seem tough on Crane if Narraway got in (will he be fit ion time?) and he didnt.

I think the Saxons have shown us the next England centre partnership, 12trees and Trinder, possibly the next winger in Sharples when Cueto retires.

They may all be young, but they seem to have very old heads on them, if you have 12trees at 12, you can do without the lump that is a Tindall clone and have a player with pace and skill.

Tuilagi just doesn't really do it for me at the moment, when he learns to hold a defensive line and restricy his kamakazi tackles to hits he knows he can make he is a liability agianst a top side. Trinder offers tehe same amount in attack, just ina different way, he goes past people rather than through them.

Here's what I've taken from the two Saxons games so far:

Rory Clegg doesn't look quite up to it.

Gaskell looks good, but he really really could do with putting some weight on.

Sharples and Trinder both look exciting.

I really want to see 12T play more. He looks like he could be very good – great pass, great boot, great size – but maybe makes a few too many mistakes?

I prefer Goode to Brown. He looks classier. Brown had a very poor game against the Baabaas too I thought.

Where has Tom Johnson come from? If only he was a few years younger.

Botha hasn't impressed me

Overall, I'd like to see Goode, Stevens and maybe Attwood in the full squad for the WC.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:Here's what I've taken from the two Saxons games so far:
Gaskell looks good, but he really really could do with putting some weight on.

I think that's exactly what Diamond intends for him next season - bulk up from 16.5st to closer to 18st, without losing any of his dynamism - good luck to Gaskell

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:Where has Tom Johnson come from?

Exeter (where's the tongue-embedded-in-cheek emoticon when you need it?!)

There's a wealth of young OCs coming through that it's almost impossible to pick between at this stage in their development. I wouldn't be surprised to see Trinder, Lowe or Tuilagi claiming the national shirt in a few years.

I hope Waldouck can shake his injury and form woes as well. A classy, intelligent footballer I see in the Conrad Smith mould (I'm not saying he is as good), that would offer good cover for both centre positions.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:On the plus side surely theres no deabte about the fat south african drug fiend going to the world cup. If Henson had spent more time playing Judo and less dancing maybe he'd be looking sharp too.

For Attwood theres still a question over temprement. The lock slots are open, especially as Deacons fitness is questionable. Lawes and Palmer will go, but Shaw? Hes a beast but can he sustain the required workrate for 80- minutes at top international level (no, but then neither can Lawes if he runs round like a headless chicken for the first 40).
Gaskells done his reputation no harm either but hes unlikely to be in the frame.

Cranes done well but Id be amazed if he got into the final squad. Could make the rtraining one though, unlucky for narraway to get injured hwne he did. It would seem tough on Crane if Narraway got in (will he be fit ion time?) and he didnt.

I know how this sounds, but, I like a second row with a bit of attitude. I mean what you rather have? A guy who humbly and quietly slips to defeat (someone like Borthwick) or a guy who is going to get stuck into the opposition and let them know they have been in a game? I would NEVER condone or defend stamping on a player like Attwood did, but I wouldn’t want to lose too much of an edge either. If he can sort the more extreme elements of his temper out, he and Lawes could be in England’s second row for years. I will also say that we haven’t seen the best of him since his layoff. Hopefully the whole experience will have chastened him a bit.

I know how this sounds, but, I like a second row with a bit of attitude. I mean what you rather have? A guy who humbly and quietly slips to defeat (someone like Borthwick) or a guy who is going to get stuck into the opposition and let them know they have been in a game? I would NEVER condone or defend stamping on a player like Attwood did, but I wouldn’t want to lose too much of an edge either. If he can sort the more extreme elements of his temper out, he and Lawes could be in England’s second row for years. I will also say that we haven’t seen the best of him since his layoff. Hopefully the whole experience will have chastened him a bit.

I honestly don't tink Attwood's stamp was that bad. He lashed out behind himself without looking when someone was pulling him back off the ball. Not exactly condoneable but it's not stamping on someone's face when they're helpless in a ruck either.

No it probably wasn't as bad as some of the hysterical reaction, but it is always going to get him a ban. In light of his position relative to the World Cup squad, his timing couldn't have been stupider. It is my opinion that if he hadn't been banned and if he hadn't allowed it to affect his form, he would be very likely to be going to the World Cup.

Eustace H Plimsoll wrote:
I honestly don't tink Attwood's stamp was that bad. He lashed out behind himself without looking when someone was pulling him back off the ball. Not exactly condoneable but it's not stamping on someone's face when they're helpless in a ruck either.

The bad point with Attwood is that he got off two stamping charges on a technicality when in Australia in the summer as well - they're both unproven since they were never properly examined but there are some serious questions over his temperament for me and his use of his feet around other players.

I think Manu Tuilagi is far and away our best prospect for the future, and he seems to be underrated by so many. I don't get it. Sure he's not perfect, but what he can do is absolutely incredible, and I just don't think anyone else offers anywhere near the attacking threat that Tuilagi does. Add to that his devestating tackling ability, and you've got a potential super star. I don't think he's as brainless, defensively, as people like to suggest either. I always like to think "who would I least want to play against," and Manu wins hands down (when he isn't swinging them into people's faces.)

I know that both have their detractors, but you know you'd all love to see Banahan at 12 and Tuilagi at 13. Even if it didn't quite work it would be a hell of a thing to watch! People would die.

Countnefarious wrote:What does Mike Brown have to do to get in the Engalnd squad? I know Goode has talent and deserves the attention he receives, but Brown has been more consistent, more reliable, AND more dangerous with the ball in hand.

Don't know if its relevant or not but I know someone at Quins and how shall I put it...Brown has a spikey personality...not the easiest person to get on with

Cumbrian wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:On the plus side surely theres no deabte about the fat south african drug fiend going to the world cup. If Henson had spent more time playing Judo and less dancing maybe he'd be looking sharp too.

For Attwood theres still a question over temprement. The lock slots are open, especially as Deacons fitness is questionable. Lawes and Palmer will go, but Shaw? Hes a beast but can he sustain the required workrate for 80- minutes at top international level (no, but then neither can Lawes if he runs round like a headless chicken for the first 40).
Gaskells done his reputation no harm either but hes unlikely to be in the frame.

Cranes done well but Id be amazed if he got into the final squad. Could make the rtraining one though, unlucky for narraway to get injured hwne he did. It would seem tough on Crane if Narraway got in (will he be fit ion time?) and he didnt.

I know how this sounds, but, I like a second row with a bit of attitude. I mean what you rather have? A guy who humbly and quietly slips to defeat (someone like Borthwick) or a guy who is going to get stuck into the opposition and let them know they have been in a game? I would NEVER condone or defend stamping on a player like Attwood did, but I wouldn’t want to lose too much of an edge either. If he can sort the more extreme elements of his temper out, he and Lawes could be in England’s second row for years. I will also say that we haven’t seen the best of him since his layoff. Hopefully the whole experience will have chastened him a bit.

The trouble is he loses control of himself. Like you say every team needs players who give the opposition some physical stick and get in their faces. But it has to be controlled, used to wind the opposition up and put them off their game. Attwood strikes as the oppositie, a guy who is driven to physical assaults through frustration.
Its not just that one stamp, or just the ones in Australia he was let off on, he already had a reputation. As you say it has to be about him being physical and used tacticaly, not about him losing his temper.

Hartley is another with a repuation for being a hothead, although he does seem to have gradulaly got it under control now and is becoming an irritating dirty hooker who really gets under the skin of the opposition with some controlled thuggery.
Moody is another who is incredibly agressive on the pitch, and frankly a bit dirty at times (especialy toward opposition kickers) but Im struggling to think of a time he did anything wildly reckless since getting in a punch up with Tuilagi.

geoff, hardly news about Brown. He's well known for being 'spikey'. He does seem to have improved it on the pitch this year

What I am wondering is whether or not he is seen as a good team member.

To put it more bluntly most of his team mates don't like him.
Maybe Johnson will not take him for that reason

Didn't know about the off-field stuff. Don't know. If he distrupts the team Johnson won't take him. Simple as that. It's like he's by far and away the best player in his position. If he was exceptions 'could' be made.

Maybe that's why he's with the saxons; to see what he's like in the squad.