Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

Pr4wn wrote:Why are 16 and 17 year olds old enough to pay tax but not old enough to vote?

Good point, take them out of having to pay tax.

A surprisingly good week for Starmer despite being away from the action as result of having to self-isolate, with two of his stand-ins performing very well and demonstrating the strength of the cabinet.

Miliband (shadow business secretary) demolished Johnson forensically in the Brexit debate at start of the week whilst straight talking Rayner performed well at PMQs on Wednesday during which it was revealed that Johnson hadn't a clue how much the average hourly rate for a care home worker (a job which Rayner had earlier in life) was.

MrInvisible wrote:A surprisingly good week for Starmer despite being away from the action as result of having to self-isolate, with two of his stand-ins performing very well and demonstrating the strength of the cabinet.

Miliband (shadow business secretary) demolished Johnson forensically in the Brexit debate at start of the week whilst straight talking Rayner performed well at PMQs on Wednesday during which it was revealed that Johnson hadn't a clue how much the average hourly rate for a care home worker (a job which Rayner had earlier in life) was.

Have a like to counter the anonymous dislike!

Johnson's sorry display at PMQs was so pitiful that even the Sun put it up on their YouTube channel for everyone to laugh at. When the Sun and the Guardian are playing similar tunes the world really is ending. Truly a sorry spectacle when Miliband offers him the chance to explain the bill with regards to GB/NI trade and he just sits there with his arms crossed. It honestly might have come across as less embarrassing if the Prime Minister just stood up and admitted he hasn't read the thing. Even sadder still considering he was meant to be dodging PMQs this week until Starmer was isolating.

Whilst probably of no interest to anyone else I found it very interesting that my mother - who has been a Tory voter without really contemplating voting differently pretty much her whole adult life - is embarrassed by Johnson's recent displays. If enough of his base start walking away then the back benches will turn on him swiftly whilst Sunak's stock is high.

On 1st April on here I predicted that by the following April Labour would be ahead in the polls, much to the amusement of Duty and Soul Requiem - I've copied and pasted that post below.  Well look what's happened already, just 9 and half months since the general election: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/26/labour-takes-poll-lead-as-parties-see-major-switch-in-fortunes
I will make another prediction - Johnson won't be prime minister this time next year - there'll be some Tory coup with Sunak or Gove taking over.

Governing parties normally get their comeuppance at some point even if it can take a while for penny to drop with much of electorate.

The Tories in successive elections have so far got away relatively unpunished with the savage ideological cuts to local authorities, education, health, welfare state, etc, but one day the reckoning will come - the penny will drop for the swathes of electorate who have only just worked out what's gone on and how much its damaged the social fabric of the country.

I may be way off the mark but I've got a feeling that the way Covid-19 will continue to shine a light on the debilitating effects of austerity and the shocking lack of preparation for a virus we had a headstart on will accelerate this day of reckoning.  

Events have forced the government's hand and transformed Sunak into an interventionist Keynesian chancellor, but the dramatic about-face on public expenditure shows up the austerity era as needless ideology (which killed 130,000 UK citizens from entirely preventable deaths).  They have nowhere left to hide.

In these strange and scary times incumbents throughout the world are seeing a polling boost, but just wait til the recession/depression starts to bite.  I'll wager a virtual fiver that Labour are ahead in the polls this time next year....

MrInvisible wrote:On 1st April on here I predicted that by the following April Labour would be ahead in the polls, much to the amusement of Duty and Soul Requiem - I've copied and pasted that post below.  Well look what's happened already, just 9 and half months since the general election: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/26/labour-takes-poll-lead-as-parties-see-major-switch-in-fortunes
I will make another prediction - Johnson won't be prime minister this time next year - there'll be some Tory coup with Sunak or Gove taking over.

Governing parties normally get their comeuppance at some point even if it can take a while for penny to drop with much of electorate.

The Tories in successive elections have so far got away relatively unpunished with the savage ideological cuts to local authorities, education, health, welfare state, etc, but one day the reckoning will come - the penny will drop for the swathes of electorate who have only just worked out what's gone on and how much its damaged the social fabric of the country.

I may be way off the mark but I've got a feeling that the way Covid-19 will continue to shine a light on the debilitating effects of austerity and the shocking lack of preparation for a virus we had a headstart on will accelerate this day of reckoning.  

Events have forced the government's hand and transformed Sunak into an interventionist Keynesian chancellor, but the dramatic about-face on public expenditure shows up the austerity era as needless ideology (which killed 130,000 UK citizens from entirely preventable deaths).  They have nowhere left to hide.

In these strange and scary times incumbents throughout the world are seeing a polling boost, but just wait til the recession/depression starts to bite.  I'll wager a virtual fiver that Labour are ahead in the polls this time next year....

Just checked and I didn't respond to your bit about the polls. I only responded to your erroneous point about 130,000 UK citizens dying from austerity. I daresay your post also mentioned this time next year, meaning April '21. Let's see what state things are in then.

I will reiterate my previous points made that Labour won't make it to number ten after the next GE, or the one after, barring a massive crisis befalling the Tory Party. Perhaps that crisis has already started, if Johnson leaves as a direct result of Covid-19 and there isn't a worthy successor? But I still think the Tory Party are massive favourites to win the next GE, as things stand, however.

It's possible that Johnson won't be PM next year, which would be a direct result of Covid-19, but it's almost impossible that Gove succeeds him. Gove is hugely unpopular. Sunak? Maybe, but Osborne was popular, too, once upon a time.

Sunak would probably be my pick to take over, he’s one of the few of the cabinet that seems to have a handle on things, although he’s working with folk like Raab and Hancock so maybe thats making him look better than he is.

@Duty: You also said back at beginning of April that it was 'Fantasy land to see Labour turning things around in the next few years.' - granted these are only opinion polls, but it has taken 6 months for Labour to get ahead in the polls.

You state that Labour will not win the next 2 general elections 'barring a massive crisis befalling the Tory party'. Well, we actually have two - Brexit and Covid, and even if they were managing these twin crises well they would be fortunate to emerge unscathed. However, they are making a complete pig's ear of both, and finally the UK population appear to have cottoned on to this (helped perhaps by media belatedly calling government to account).

I wouldn't write off Gove - he is v influential behind the scenes and is v close to Cummings (they were partners in crime during the emergence of Free Schools back in the days of coalition). He may lack the charm of Johnson, but he is actually one of the few genuine heavyweight politicians in Cabinet with some ability and competence (and I say this through gritted teeth as someone who dislikes him intensely for the damage he has wreaked on education). Agree that Sunak is the one to watch, though his halo will slip over the coming months as growing unemployment takes its toll.

I will hold my hands up and acknowledge that I like many underestimated the power of nationalism stirring in harvesting votes in last election (and numbers of traditional 'Red Wall' Labour voters putting it ahead of NHS - more fool them) but equally I think many folk underestimate the enormity of Covid's impacts on the economy - this is a once in a couple of generations type impact dragging unprecedented numbers into poverty, including people who were accustomed to comfortable lifestyle. We are still only in the foothills of this crisis.

I'm going to switch round Duty's argument and say that barring a major disaster for Labour they will be in power in some shape or form come the next election.

Encouraging as the last poll is for Labour worth remembering.

1. Johnson won't be fighting the next GE....Likely to be Sunak and his approvals are better than the wooden plank leading Labour... Like all Leaders do he will blame everything on the last guy.

2. While the SNP poll at 45-50% Labour can't realistically win a Parliamentary majority...Hard to see a Labour revival in Bag Pipe Country...Though the Loch Ness monster is apparently leaning Labour.

3. This new flag waving crap is going down like a pool of sick in the normally loyal Labour Muslim Community..

4. Labour will have to form some kind of policy in the next four years and this non committal strategy won't last.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Encouraging as the last poll is for Labour worth remembering.

1. Johnson won't be fighting the next GE....Likely to be Sunak and his approvals are better than the wooden plank leading Labour... Like all Leaders do he will blame everything on the last guy.

2. While the SNP poll at 45-50% Labour can't realistically win a Parliamentary majority...Hard to see a Labour revival in Bag Pipe Country...Though the Loch Ness monster is apparently leaning Labour.

3. This new flag waving crap is going down like a pool of sick in the normally loyal Labour Muslim Community..

4. Labour will have to form some kind of policy in the next four years and this non committal strategy won't last.

1. Agreed but Sunak can only be judged once he is in the hot seat but to be honest a cabbage would be doing a better job than BJ.

2. Quite a simple resolution - they listen to the majority in Scotland and agree to back an IndyRef2 - until then they'll remain also rans. So until Labour in Morris Dancing Country wake up to that they'll always struggle in Scotland.

3. I can't speak for that. To me they need to go back to the party roots.

4. Yes I agree but that is easier said than done in the current climate.

MrInvisible wrote:@Duty: You also said back at beginning of April that it was 'Fantasy land to see Labour turning things around in the next few years.' - granted these are only opinion polls, but it has taken 6 months for Labour to get ahead in the polls.

You state that Labour will not win the next 2 general elections 'barring a massive crisis befalling the Tory party'.  Well, we actually have two - Brexit and Covid, and even if they were managing these twin crises well they would be fortunate to emerge unscathed.  However, they are making a complete pig's ear of both, and finally the UK population appear to have cottoned on to this (helped perhaps by media belatedly calling government to account).

I wouldn't write off Gove - he is v influential behind the scenes and is v close to Cummings (they were partners in crime during the emergence of Free Schools back in the days of coalition).  He may lack the charm of Johnson, but he is actually one of the few genuine heavyweight politicians in Cabinet with some ability and competence (and I say this through gritted teeth as someone who dislikes him intensely for the damage he has wreaked on education).  Agree that Sunak is the one to watch, though his halo will slip over the coming months as growing unemployment takes its toll.

I will hold my hands up and acknowledge that I like many underestimated the power of nationalism stirring in harvesting votes in last election (and numbers of traditional 'Red Wall' Labour voters putting it ahead of NHS - more fool them) but equally I think many folk underestimate the enormity of Covid's impacts on the economy - this is a once in a couple of generations type impact dragging unprecedented numbers into poverty, including people who were accustomed to comfortable lifestyle.  We are still only in the foothills of this crisis.

I'm going to switch round Duty's argument and say that barring a major disaster for Labour they will be in power in some shape or form come the next election.

1) Yes, turning it around in the next few years, as in overturning the massive seat differential of 365 v 202 seats at the next GE. I also take issue with the statement that 'Labour are ahead in the polls'. It is just one poll. It could be an outlier. We'll need to see more consistent polling before we can confidently say Labour are ahead.

2) Once Johnson goes, Cummings goes. Like Theresa May's inner circle went after she did. I agree that Gove is a strong politician, but he's not leadership material and not a vote-winner and I think most Tory MPs recognise this.

3) I don't find sneering comments like 'more fool them' to be very helpful. Perhaps voters just have a different point of view to you, and it does not necessarily mean they're wrong or worthy of condescension because of this. I certainly don't think Labour are a capable party of running the NHS (or much else, to be honest), and their usual automatic stance of "we're the party for the NHS" is complacent in the extreme.

I didn't see much 'nationalism' from the Tory Party at the last election either. If you're referring to Brexit policy, then yes the Tories had a clearer idea on this issue than Labour at the last election, which was a big asset to their election win as Brexit was the biggest issue. Tories - "we'll put our withdrawal agreement through and get Brexit done". Labour "we'll magically negotiate a new deal with the EU within three months (don't ask us how), then hold another referendum, and we'll campaign against the deal we negotiated". Little surprise most voters preferred the former.

4) Most things are weighted against Labour getting anywhere near power in the next GE, so this would be a surprise. As the post-GE Labour report detailed, once loyal voter groups to Labour are starting to splinter (not just the northern working classes, but some ethnic minority communities, including the Muslim vote), they have no good foothold in Scotland, their internal party campaigning mechanisms are a shambles, the internal party structures are rife with racism and other forms of prejudice which are turning away potential activists, and only 58 seats need a narrow swing to go from 'red' to 'blue'. They also have to battle against the incumbency advantage of 365 Tory MPs. That said, Starmer has started well on this most uphill of tasks, and he has been helped immensely by the Johnson/Cummings debacle.

To become the largest party at the next GE, Labour need a swing of 82 seats to go from 'blue' to 'red', which would be one of the biggest swings and a very far-fetched notion, barring a complete splinter of the Tory Party or Starmer turning into mid-90s Blair.

Duty - it was a Brexit election and Brexit is ultimately about English nationalism.

You do make some coherent points but I feel you are still analysing through the prism of a pre-Covid lense. What impact do you think the pandemic and the resultant (global) depression is going to have?

We are going to end up with massive unemployment, and unlike the last time that happened in early 1980s, its not just concentrated in Labour heartland areas - its all over the country, and across different sectors. We are only in the initial stages of the economic fallout and coupled with the impact of Brexit, times are going to be very tough for an incumbent government, especially one that has been performing so poorly.

On the polling this is of course only the 1st time we've seen Labour pull ahead since July 2019 but this follows a number of polls with both parties level pegging.

Brexit is fundamentally about leaving a failed political union which exerts too much control, not about English nationalism. You might argue that an English nationalist would, almost certainly, support leaving the European Union, but Brexit has not led to an upsurge in English nationalism, anymore than it has led to a growth in Welsh nationalism.

We don't know, yet, what the full impact of Covid-19 will be and what the effects of the economic downturn will be. The next GE is, also, far into the future. We will almost certainly see massive unemployment in the near-future, but equally we may see an economic recovery beginning in 2023/early 2024 which would place the incumbent Tory Party in good stead for the 2024 GE.

Times will be tough for the current Tory government, but they were also tough in 2015/2017/2019 and they comfortably defeated Labour in all three (albeit without a majority in 2017, they did finish 55 seats ahead of Labour). And similarly it does not automatically follow that just because there's a huge economic crisis, Labour will get into number ten. They have enormous work to do just to end the Tory majority at the next GE, let alone become the largest party.

Duty281 wrote:Brexit is fundamentally about leaving a failed political union which exerts too much control, not about English nationalism. You might argue that an English nationalist would, almost certainly, support leaving the European Union, but Brexit has not led to an upsurge in English nationalism, anymore than it has led to a growth in Welsh nationalism.

We don't know, yet, what the full impact of Covid-19 will be and what the effects of the economic downturn will be. The next GE is, also, far into the future. We will almost certainly see massive unemployment in the near-future, but equally we may see an economic recovery beginning in 2023/early 2024 which would place the incumbent Tory Party in good stead for the 2024 GE.

Times will be tough for the current Tory government, but they were also tough in 2015/2017/2019 and they comfortably defeated Labour in all three (albeit without a majority in 2017, they did finish 55 seats ahead of Labour). And similarly it does not automatically follow that just because there's a huge economic crisis, Labour will get into number ten. They have enormous work to do just to end the Tory majority at the next GE, let alone become the largest party.

Lol, pull the other one.

For you this might be the case. But overall? Give over.

Ah yes, exerting too much control by -checks notes- holding regular parliamentery sessions where hundreds of democratically elected MEPs from all 28 members state convene to discuss and vote on legislation, and other pesking things like letting a member state leave after deciding they want to.

Brexit was always about English nationalism, thats why when pressed Joe Public only ever seem to be able to recite the same nonsense about “getting our country back”. It might not have been for you, but it was a major factor for the majority.

Samo wrote:Ah yes, exerting too much control by -checks notes- holding regular parliamentery sessions where hundreds of democratically elected MEPs from all 28 members state convene to discuss and vote on legislation, and other pesking things like letting a member state leave after deciding they want to.

Brexit was always about English nationalism, thats why when pressed Joe Public only ever seem to be able to recite the same nonsense about “getting our country back”. It might not have been for you, but it was a major factor for the majority.

C'mon Samo, Duty learned all about the EU and its evil machinations in his A' Level Legal Studies course and made up his mind there and then - you can't possibly compete with that.  And anyway, his hero, Farage ("total ledge") never made it about nationalism or xenophobia.  

Pr4wn wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Brexit is fundamentally about leaving a failed political union which exerts too much control, not about English nationalism. You might argue that an English nationalist would, almost certainly, support leaving the European Union, but Brexit has not led to an upsurge in English nationalism, anymore than it has led to a growth in Welsh nationalism.

We don't know, yet, what the full impact of Covid-19 will be and what the effects of the economic downturn will be. The next GE is, also, far into the future. We will almost certainly see massive unemployment in the near-future, but equally we may see an economic recovery beginning in 2023/early 2024 which would place the incumbent Tory Party in good stead for the 2024 GE.

Times will be tough for the current Tory government, but they were also tough in 2015/2017/2019 and they comfortably defeated Labour in all three (albeit without a majority in 2017, they did finish 55 seats ahead of Labour). And similarly it does not automatically follow that just because there's a huge economic crisis, Labour will get into number ten. They have enormous work to do just to end the Tory majority at the next GE, let alone become the largest party.

Lol, pull the other one.

For you this might be the case. But overall? Give over.

Well...

1) According to a YouGov poll, 45% of Leave voters said their main reason for voting Leave was to strike a better balance between independence and the appropriate level of co-operation with other nations. 26% said their main reason was to help us deal better with the issue of immigration.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/640yx5m0rx/On_the_Day_FINAL_poll_forwebsite.pdf

2) According to Lord Ashcroft's poll, it was 49% for the principle of sovereignty, and 33% for the same second reason as above.

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/

3) The British Election Study did an unprompted survey for why people voted as they did. The main reason again came out as sovereignty for Leave voters (just over 30%), control over immigration again the second largest reason (just under 30%). British/English identity did feature in this poll as a main reason, for only around 4-5% of voters.

https://www.britishelectionstudy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/reasons_categories.png

Sovereignty and immigration sound like Nationalist problems so I dont know what you were hoping to prove there.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Encouraging as the last poll is for Labour worth remembering.

1. Johnson won't be fighting the next GE....Likely to be Sunak and his approvals are better than the wooden plank leading Labour... Like all Leaders do he will blame everything on the last guy.

2. While the SNP poll at 45-50% Labour can't realistically win a Parliamentary majority...Hard to see a Labour revival in Bag Pipe Country...Though the Loch Ness monster is apparently leaning Labour.

3. This new flag waving crap is going down like a pool of sick in the normally loyal Labour Muslim Community..

4. Labour will have to form some kind of policy in the next four years and this non committal strategy won't last.

What do you dislike so vehemently about Starmer out of interest Truss?

I certainly wouldn't argue that Starmer is second coming or the political colossus that some commentators have suggested in his brief leadership of the opposition. After all getting the better of Johnson in PMQs without the mob jeering behind Bojo isn't actually much of a surprise. Though the exchange between Milliband and Johnson over the potential NI/GB blockade was one of the more pitiful displays in PMQs for a while it must be said.

As a successful human rights defence lawyer who was DPP and head of the CPS he certainly has a far more impressive CV for senior government roles than most career politicians or failed journalists.

Personally I'm optimistic to see where he can take the opposition. Years of abject opposition to Blair and latterly abject opposition to Cameron, May and Johnson has led us to the mire we are now in.

The new Labour leaderships refusal to let Johnson/Cummings keep the conversation in campaign mode by endlessly debating whether Brexit will happen is certainly refreshing. As Johnson has been told many times, he ran on the basis of an "oven ready deal" and "get Brexit done" so it's probably time for him to deliver.

Samo wrote:Sovereignty and immigration sound like Nationalist problems so I dont know what you were hoping to prove there.

There's also not many people who would openly say that they voted in a particular way because they don't like people with a different skin colour.

Was it even an option on the poll?

king_carlos wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Encouraging as the last poll is for Labour worth remembering.

1. Johnson won't be fighting the next GE....Likely to be Sunak and his approvals are better than the wooden plank leading Labour... Like all Leaders do he will blame everything on the last guy.

2. While the SNP poll at 45-50% Labour can't realistically win a Parliamentary majority...Hard to see a Labour revival in Bag Pipe Country...Though the Loch Ness monster is apparently leaning Labour.

3. This new flag waving crap is going down like a pool of sick in the normally loyal Labour Muslim Community..

4. Labour will have to form some kind of policy in the next four years and this non committal strategy won't last.

What do you dislike so vehemently about Starmer out of interest Truss?

I certainly wouldn't argue that Starmer is second coming or the political colossus that some commentators have suggested in his brief leadership of the opposition. After all getting the better of Johnson in PMQs without the mob jeering behind Bojo isn't actually much of a surprise. Though the exchange between Milliband and Johnson over the potential NI/GB blockade was one of the more pitiful displays in PMQs for a while it must be said.

As a successful human rights defence lawyer who was DPP and head of the CPS he certainly has a far more impressive CV for senior government roles than most career politicians or failed journalists.

Personally I'm optimistic to see where he can take the opposition. Years of abject opposition to Blair and latterly abject opposition to Cameron, May and Johnson has led us to the mire we are now in.

The new Labour leaderships refusal to let Johnson/Cummings keep the conversation in campaign mode by endlessly debating whether Brexit will happen is certainly refreshing. As Johnson has been told many times, he ran on the basis of an "oven ready deal" and "get Brexit done" so it's probably time for him to deliver.

For a Human rights lawyer you would think he would have wanted to prosecute those responsible for the Charles De menezes murder....Alas the Person responsible for the operation was made Chief Constable a couple of months later....A nice slap in the face for the family.

You are optimistic about opposition when this guy hasn't opposed anything...Okay......

I liked Gordon Brown and I liked the fact Corbyn had principles even if he was too far left..I can't stand Blair a shameless narcissistic War criminal...

He reminds me of a charisma-less version of one of them.....I'll let you guess which one..

Con 41 +1
Lab 38 -2

Yougov...

Worst Govt and PM I have ever seen in my 30 years here.

Stick Andy Burnham in charge.

Comres
Con 41
Lab 38

Deltapoll
Con 42
Lab 38

Who do you think would be best in a crisis ??
Sunak.....54%
Johnson 32%

Worrying for Starmer that Labour can't get ahead of this sack of crap.

No doubt the Tory game is to dump the Covid fallout on Claudius and let the blue eyed boy go up against the block of wood.

Could work....Maybe the UK will start recovering by 2024..

Doubt it but who knows ???

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Con 41 +1
Lab 38 -2

Yougov...

Worst Govt and PM I have ever seen in my 30 years here.

Stick Andy Burnham in charge.

Is the answer to nothing.  Who gives a flying f*ck about these polls?  They're fundamentally flawed anyway.

I see the ghastly Priti Patel is trying to stick it to immigrants again in the tried and tested (Brexit,Trump 2016) way of using them to gain popularity.

The right wing always punches down and the majority of the Working class always vote for Christmas like Turkeys it seems.

Looking at the Tories and Trump's vote pool.

Yes it's such fun being an Immigrant leaving the comfort zone of Family and Friends or escaping Starvation...Tyranny or Torture..Or all of them.

Nothing will ever change until the Working class wake up and DEMAND as Wealth Creators.

Billionaires don't make a Billion..They take a Billion.

Red didn't vote for Boris in December and yet a load of Factory workers did....Crazy.

Maybe you should have to pass a test before you get a vote.

Then again that would exclude Trump and Biden.

Crazy times..

Unemployment rising in Scotland faster than anywhere else...Great conditions for winning an Independence ballot..

But what nightmares would await thereafter as the Economy shuffles of its Mortal Coil ??...Perhaps instead of taking up arms Scotland would be nobler in the mind to accept the slings and arrows of an outrageous United Kingdom for a few years yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54444143

The result of Starmer's internal battle.

McCluskey's an idiot railing against his own increasing irrelevance

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Unemployment rising in Scotland faster than anywhere else...Great conditions for winning an Independence ballot..

But what nightmares would await thereafter as the Economy shuffles of its Mortal Coil ??...Perhaps instead of taking up arms Scotland would be nobler in the mind to accept the slings and arrows of an outrageous United Kingdom for a few years yet.

Unemployment rising in Scotland locked into a union you should say.

Life is full of nightmares either way with the promise of endless years of Tory governments we never voted for and possibly a Hard Brexit to boot. At least with independence Scots get to choose the direction they take in the political world and get to choose who governs them and makes key choices solely to the benefit of Scotland.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54444143

The result of Starmer's internal battle.

Not a bad thing in fairness, McCluskey is an unelected idiot who has been instrumental in holding back the Labour party.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Unemployment rising in Scotland faster than anywhere else...Great conditions for winning an Independence ballot..

But what nightmares would await thereafter as the Economy shuffles of its Mortal Coil ??...Perhaps instead of taking up arms Scotland would be nobler in the mind to accept the slings and arrows of an outrageous United Kingdom for a few years yet.

Unemployment rising in Scotland locked into a union you should say.

Life is full of nightmares either way with the promise of endless years of Tory governments we never voted for and possibly a Hard Brexit to boot. At least with independence Scots get to choose the direction they take in the political world and get to choose who governs them and makes key choices solely to the benefit of Scotland.

CaledonianCraig wrote:At least with independence Scots get to choose the direction they take in the political world and get to choose who governs them and makes key choices solely to the benefit of Scotland.

Not if the SNP's vision of Scotland in the EU comes true.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54444143

The result of Starmer's internal battle.

Not a bad thing in fairness, McCluskey is an unelected idiot who has been instrumental in holding back the Labour party.

Technically he was elected, but somehow only close friends and family actually voted.

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:At least with independence Scots get to choose the direction they take in the political world and get to choose who governs them and makes key choices solely to the benefit of Scotland.

Not if the SNP's vision of Scotland in the EU comes true.

Oh please.

On Brexit the EU had the right idea when the Irish border etc proposal was on the table - it put it to all of the countries and if one just one disagreed it never went ahead. Not in this union in the UK. Two countries voted against Brexit - tough crap its's happening.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Unemployment rising in Scotland faster than anywhere else...Great conditions for winning an Independence ballot..

But what nightmares would await thereafter as the Economy shuffles of its Mortal Coil ??...Perhaps instead of taking up arms Scotland would be nobler in the mind to accept the slings and arrows of an outrageous United Kingdom for a few years yet.

Nah. They've an easy 'out' in blaming UKG. Always Westminster's fault. Axiomatic. Didn't you know?

Labour was formed as a partnership with the Unions

If it isn't a partnership it isn't Labour.

Perhaps if it spent more time attacking Tories and these Tories are the pits of all pits....Then...

Comres.

Con 42 +1
Lab 39 -1

Unemployment rising significantly...Students screwed..Economy tanking...NHS in dire straits...Needless deaths because of Covid.

and the Tories going up in the polls.

Going up in the pointless and meaningless polls.

Labour needed a BIG change after the last election. Corbyn was rightly jettisoned, as were the rest of his toxic front bench. There's not going to be another election for years, barring something extraordinary happening, so please stop quoting this pointless polls to back up the ridiculous notion that Labour is somehow in a worse position now than it was after the last election.

Those polls would also look a lot f*cking worse with anyone else in charge of the Labour Party.

The polls are also a bit pointless when the defining factor at the next election will be how the two parties plan to go about rectifying the economy, until manifestos are published it doesn't mean a thing.

Soul Requiem wrote:The polls are also a bit pointless when the defining factor at the next election will be how the two parties plan to go about rectifying the economy, until manifestos are published it doesn't mean a thing.

Which is essentially what Starmer has said recently. They can outline their high level prinicples, but Labour won't be providing any detaled policies until they know what kind of Britain they'll b dealing with at the next election.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour was formed as a partnership with the  Unions  

If it isn't a partnership it isn't Labour.

Perhaps if it spent more time attacking Tories and these Tories are the pits of all pits....Then...

Comres.

Con 42 +1
Lab 39 -1

Unemployment rising significantly...Students screwed..Economy tanking...NHS in dire straits...Needless deaths because of Covid.

and the Tories going up in the polls.

That's fine, but IMHO, Labour being in-hock to the Unions and, basically, being asked to do whatever they say else they'll threaten to pull the funding is pants. I get that it's probably logical (and, yes, the Tories are probably quietly in-hock in the same way to large individual donors), but I think way too many people are heartily fed up of the 70s 'everybody out!' kind of Unionism that never really went away. This country's always suffered from a childish 'us and them' view from both Unions and Management; it's almost always been seen as adversarial and axiomatic that there can't ever be any real trust or mutual agreements to ensure given businesses succeed.
Maybe the Unions should actually break from the current Labour party and agree to start a new party, that's more in-line w/ the Corbynite kind of view, instead of the stupid threats to the existing Party.

Soul Requiem wrote:The polls are also a bit pointless when the defining factor at the next election will be how the two parties plan to go about rectifying the economy, until manifestos are published it doesn't mean a thing.

When manifestos are published, they won't mean a thing. They should be legal documents, but I wouldn't use them to wipe my arse.

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Labour was formed as a partnership with the  Unions  

If it isn't a partnership it isn't Labour.

Perhaps if it spent more time attacking Tories and these Tories are the pits of all pits....Then...

Comres.

Con 42 +1
Lab 39 -1

Unemployment rising significantly...Students screwed..Economy tanking...NHS in dire straits...Needless deaths because of Covid.

and the Tories going up in the polls.

That's fine, but IMHO, Labour being in-hock to the Unions and, basically, being asked to do whatever they say else they'll threaten to pull the funding is pants. I get that it's probably logical (and, yes, the Tories are probably quietly in-hock in the same way to large individual donors), but I think way too many people are heartily fed up of the 70s 'everybody out!' kind of Unionism that never really went away. This country's always suffered from a childish 'us and them' view from both Unions and Management; it's almost always been seen as adversarial and axiomatic that there can't ever be any real trust or mutual agreements to ensure given businesses succeed.
Maybe the Unions should actually break from the current Labour party and agree to start a new party, that's more in-line w/ the Corbynite kind of view, instead of the stupid threats to the existing Party.

All good stuff. And worth a reminder that McClusky was voted in to his position on a turn out of 15% of Unite membership.

9% of Brits have no savings at all..

33% of Brits have less than £600 in savings....

With the squeeze that is about to hit the UK like a wrecking ball we have a complete clown in charge and a plank who thinks abstaining on everything opposing..

Sadly those from less affluent areas that voted for the straw haired wally in December because "Brexit will stop immigrants coming here" will be worst hit. .But apart from banning Turkeys voting what can you do ???.

Difficult time for People with empathy...Maybe I'll be a Turkey next time because December is probably the last time I vote Labour unless this piece of wood improves....I'll stay home and watch something educational instead...Maybe 'At home with the Kardashians' or something.

At a time when the US/UK needs leadership look what we have ???

(Ipsos Mori)

Scottish independence poll.

Yes 58
No..42

Covid and the Govt response making Independence support hit record levels...More older bracket support but whether that is temporary disgust with the response or it's tipped waverers from 2014 remains to be seen.

The trend is definitely for a comfortable win for Nationalists.

55-45 in 2014...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:(Ipsos Mori)

Scottish independence poll.

Yes 58
No..42

Covid and the Govt response making Independence support hit record levels...More older bracket support but whether that is temporary disgust with the response or it's tipped waverers from 2014 remains to be seen.

The trend is definitely for a comfortable win for Nationalists.

55-45 in 2014...

Excellent. The faster they're gone, the better. They'll maybe stop the whining thereafter, but I doubt it. Voted to stay in their Referendum, but then returned almost unanimous SNP to Westminster. Hypocrisy of the highest order. And.....queue Craig....

If anyone can find Keir Starmer could you tell him to watch Andy Burnham so he can see what leadership looks like.

Comres
Con 42 +3
Lab 36 -3

Shocking poll against this Tory garbage.

Oh give it a rest. Literally nobody cares about these polls apart from you. They're utterly meaningless.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:(Ipsos Mori)

Scottish independence poll.

Yes 58
No..42

Covid and the Govt response making Independence support hit record levels...More older bracket support but whether that is temporary disgust with the response or it's tipped waverers from 2014 remains to be seen.

The trend is definitely for a comfortable win for Nationalists.

55-45 in 2014...

Actually no it is not only COVID-related disgust. Yes has been ahead in the polls consistently since January way before COVID struck. Sixteen polls in 2020 and Yes has had a lead in 12, two tied and two gave No a lead of just 1%.

navyblueshorts wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:(Ipsos Mori)

Scottish independence poll.

Yes 58
No..42

Covid and the Govt response making Independence support hit record levels...More older bracket support but whether that is temporary disgust with the response or it's tipped waverers from 2014 remains to be seen.

The trend is definitely for a comfortable win for Nationalists.

55-45 in 2014...

Voted to stay in their Referendum, but then returned almost unanimous SNP to Westminster. Hypocrisy of the highest order. And.....queue Craig....

Realisation (too late) that they had been duped and lied to by Better Together in 2014 coupled with the realisation that SNP cares for Scotland whereas a vote for (laughingly called) Scottish Labour and Conservatives is a vote for Westminster-based policies being waved through regardless of the impact on Scotland.

This sums up the depths Westminster will plunge to keep its filthy paws on Scotland:-

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-10-19/u-k-s-tories-start-war-gaming-to-stop-scottish-independence