ENGLAND v WALES - Match Thread / Build up - 7/3/2020

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England    v Wales    - 07/03/2020 - 16:45pm - the HOME of Rugby.

England XV

Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Wilson, Curry

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade

Wales XV

Halfpenny; North, Tompkins, Parkes, Williams; Biggar, T Williams; R Evans, Owens, D Lewis, Ball, AW Jones (capt), Moriarty, Navidi, Tipuric.

Replacements: Elias, Carre, L Brown, Shingler, Faletau, Webb, J Evans, McNicholl.


Overall - Played 134 - Eng 63 - Wales 59 - Drawn 12

[Cyril]

Biggar’s trip on Farrell wasn’t reviewed either.

[formerly known as Sam]

Everything is checked in the modern game even if there isn't a break in play or the ref isn't in direct communication.

Which it clearly isn't otherwise how does the TMO miss the nut squeeze from Marler on AWJ? There's about thousand clips and pictures of that going round already.

At club games you see the TMO communicating a lot with the ref. Wasn't the case today. He only came in when requested. Seems to be a different criteria on the international scene with more onus on the ref. There's been no TMO interruption of the ref this 6N tournament as I can remember.

[SecretFly]

Everything is checked in the modern game even if there isn't a break in play or the ref isn't in direct communication.

Yeah like Ireland charging from the side got checked the other week right

Moral of the story- don't do what we do.

[majesticimperialman]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

[BigGee]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

[Guest]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

Well, according to Goode if AWJ had laughed it off then he’d be complicit in sexual harassment, or discrimination, or abuse...... or something. Again, I’m confused. Am I not ‘woke’? I wouldn’t be surprised if I was not as I’m pretty sleepy to be honest.

[tigertattie]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

Because it’s Marler folk have been laughing about it.

It’s a throw back to the amateur days where stereotypical thinking was this is common place in rugby.

When you look at it in purely a legal perspective, it’s sexual assault.

I know it sounds extreme but Marler isn’t just looking at a ban from rugby, he could be up for criminal charges.

[formerly known as Sam]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

[Cyril]

Let’s hope that AWJ also calls for Parkes’ assault on Tuilagi to be cited too. If he’s being fair.

[Geen sport voor watjes]

Eddie Jones saying Tuilagi seed card is a joke just goes to show where this England team is. Beaten up (legally by the boks and French) they resort to very underhand and downright dangerous play.

[Duty281]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

Not sure why anyone would find sexual assault amusing, to be honest. Hope Marler gets a long ban.

[mikey_dragon]

Come on guys we’ve all had a cheeky feel...

[Mr Bounce]

Just back from Twickenham. Well, it was exciting, if nothing else. I have to raise the question about Jonker though. He seems to get given the |England games an awful lot and always seems to have a bias against England. If it's refereed fairly, then I don't mind if England get yellows etc, but he took no action over Parkes' head on head with Tuilagi - not even a penalty, yet recommends red for Tuilagi's tackle on North?

If you're going to be harsh, fair enough, but it should apply to both sides.

[Guest]

Everything is checked in the modern game even if there isn't a break in play or the ref isn't in direct communication.

Yeah like Ireland charging from the side got checked the other week right

Dangerous or serious foul play. Not a technical foul. So that's the difference between a high tackle around the head versus incorrectly entering a ruck.

[Guest]

Everything is checked in the modern game even if there isn't a break in play or the ref isn't in direct communication.

Which it clearly isn't otherwise how does the TMO miss the nut squeeze from Marler on AWJ? There's about thousand clips and pictures of that going round already.

At club games you see the TMO communicating a lot with the ref. Wasn't the case today. He only came in when requested. Seems to be a different criteria on the international scene with more onus on the ref. There's been no TMO interruption of the ref this 6N tournament as I can remember.

On your final point that might be a directive due to the negative response from the world cup but I will ask those who know more than me, I'm not sure, just a guess. (editing to say that the TMO has definitely stepped in though. Itoje's high tackle on Biggar came from the TMO as indeed did several other penalty calls i.e. the TMO will tell the referee when dangerous foul play has occurred but not for a forward pass etc.).

On your other point, though against the 'spirit of the game', the 'nut squeeze' was never going to result in anything. The AR also quite clearly observed it and had he thought it worthy of mentioning - other than just ignoring with a disapproving shake of the head - it would have resulted in a penalty. There is a clear difference between that and foul play like there is a difference between a pat on the head and a head lock. Farrell's celebratory 'shove' crossed the line, Marler's 'tickle' didn't, there we go, that's the call, get on with it. Until we find out that maybe WR thinks the referees will treat this differently and this becomes a watershed case re: sexual harrassment. We've seen a few 'bum and genital grabs' at scrums in recent years. I think Connor Murray was involved in one earlier this season. This might be the high profile incident that sees the laws and practices tightened to mean any sort of 'banter' like this will be punished in future but as there is no major precedent for this, unlike high tackles, it was decided play on, so play on. The TMO still would surely have checked it - we saw Farrell as the instigator and that was punished - but this is besides the main point being made re: high tackles.

Either way this has nothing to do with Tuilagi and Parkes. It would 100% have been checked, in slow motion. The pictures we saw on TV would have been what the TMO saw as well. It was nothing more than a penalty so what are you actually complaining about?

[Guest]

Eddie Jones saying Tuilagi seed card is a joke just goes to show where this England team is. Beaten up (legally by the boks and French) they resort to very underhand and downright dangerous play.  

His comments came across as a very bad loser (all chat about grace in victory or defeat ought to be directed at him) but his comments about the tackle in particular seem dim. He says he 'doesn't know what the tackler should do'. It is Michael Cheika at his best (worst). Throw the journalists off by pretending to be dubious about the laws.

He ought to have learnt by now: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2019/08/11/eddie-jones-launches-rant-high-tackles-calls-consistency-world/

[Guest]

Come on guys we’ve all had a cheeky feel...

A Trump supporter. What a surprise.

[Soul Requiem]

Miaow boring all and sundry.

[Geordie]

Ffs....if Marler gets banned at all...then my hatred of the direction world is going is complete

Snowlflakes around the world are taking over...

[Guest]

Miaow boring all and sundry.

Shh, Soulless Rectum.

[Gooseberry]

Jones saying Tuilagi " couldnt avoid the tackle" is very poor phrasing in light of sausagegate

[Gooseberry]

Ffs....if Marler gets banned at all...then my hatred of the direction world is going is complete

Snowlflakes around the world are taking over...

You sound very emotional about a person not being allowed to play a game.

[Soul Requiem]

Miaow boring all and sundry.

Shh, Soulless Rectum.

That's a good one

[Geordie]

Ffs....if Marler gets banned at all...then my hatred of the direction world is going is complete

Snowlflakes around the world are taking over...

You sound very emotional about a person not being allowed to play a game.

Its a cheeky bit of fun thats part of humour of rugby....and everyone is screaming sexual assault.

RiP rugby if hes banned.

[Old Man]

Andy Goode wading in on the Marler-AWJ nut squeeze. But criticising Gareth Thomas for for joking about it. I’m so confused these days about homophobia, gay rights, pro-free speech, equal opportunities, etc. I can’t decide who’s right!

UN has declared that the worldwide diversity equality harmony respect agenda will necessitate Monday being World We're Right Day for Homosexuals.  Tuesday will be for Right wing Women.  Wednesday will be for Left Wing Women.  Thursday for Whites.  Friday for Blacks.  Saturday for Racists and Sunday for Homophobes.

So neither Goode nor Thomas is right today coz they're both white.

That is a fair summation of modern Society.

[Old Man]

Ffs....if Marler gets banned at all...then my hatred of the direction world is going is complete

Snowlflakes around the world are taking over...

You sound very emotional about a person not being allowed to play a game.

Its a cheeky bit of fun thats part of humour of rugby....and everyone is screaming sexual assault.

RiP rugby if hes banned.

I don’t think this issue is about snowflakes, fairies or any minorities.

When someone grabs you by the nutsack it is intended to hurt, any male will want to react in that situation, even though often you are powerless to do so. a player either need his clock cleaned by a good uppercut, or banned, any man knows that is a low blow.

[mikey_dragon]

Come on guys we’ve all had a cheeky feel...

A Trump supporter. What a surprise.

?

Miaow just can help but embarrass them self. Not sure what brought this on mind, but yeah only embarrassing for one. How long does it take for one to get the message?

[mikey_dragon]

That diatribe by Miaow above is possibly the most one-eyed reading of a game I’ve ever had the misfortune to read.

It would be better to sober up and, perhaps l, show a little grace in defeat.

Yes.

I enjoyed watching the game at the pub with friends. The pub was about a third full of English fans. I bought 4 pints after the game for a group we were chatting to throughout.

How did you show grace in defeat? Did you even enjoy the game sat staring at your phone?

Liar.

[Collapse2005]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

Those incidents are annoying as they never get punished, the appropiate response is a punch in the face but you can't do that so its a very cheap move from Marler so hope it does get punished.

Sean O Brien missed a world cup knock out game because he reacted to a french player grabbing him in a similar way. They are designed to get a reaction to get people carded so fairly low life move IMO.

[Collapse2005]

Good game otherwise. Englands game plan of pinning teams back in their half and defending everything with a blitz attracting turnovers and penalties is very effective at home anyway. Dont think the offside line was refereed well which makes it hard on attack but Wales had some success by attacking from deep and using well timed runners.

Two good sides. Watson and Williams great to watch.

[TJ]

I enjoyed the game as a neutral and didn't think the refs got much wrong.

On the red card there is a framework to work thru:
Has foul play been committed?  Yes.  No arms tackle.  Penalty.
Contact with the head?  Yes  clearly shoulder to head.
With Force?  Yes.
Mitigation -?  Tackled player is going down but because its an reckless act ie foul play no mitigation.

conclusion - red card.  correct under the laws.

If Tuilagi had not gone for the no arms tackle he would not have hit North on the head.  the fact he wasn't aiming at the head but at the ribs does not matter. His reckless conduct ( no arms tackle) resulted in North getting a shoulder to the head. If it was a legal tackle with arms it would be different.

[TightHEAD]

I'm all for winding up the opposition, that may surprise some of you!
But Marler wtf fella?

Plain dumb and the end of his England career, again!

[formerly known as Sam]

I enjoyed the game as a neutral and didn't think the refs got much wrong.

On the red card there is a framework to work thru:
Has foul play been committed?  Yes.  No arms tackle.  Penalty.
Contact with the head?  Yes  clearly shoulder to head.
With Force?  Yes.
Mitigation -?  Tackled player is going down but because its an reckless act ie foul play no mitigation.

conclusion - red card.  correct under the laws.

If Tuilagi had not gone for the no arms tackle he would not have hit North on the head.  the fact he wasn't aiming at the head but at the ribs does not matter. His reckless conduct ( no arms tackle) resulted in North getting a shoulder to the head.  If it was a legal tackle with arms it would be different.

https://mobile.twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1236361575784742912?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1236361575784742912&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport%2Frugby-union%2F51784107

No arms?

Covering tackles at speed like that being described as reckless is correct but at the same time they are all reckless because of the speed and the fact you are targeting a player that low. Do you want then taking out the game? Because if so it's virtually a try every time a winger attempts to dive into the corner as you can't try to stop them anymore. Manu making contact with the head is accidental and initial contact is with the shoulder. That might make it red by the letter of the law but you can guarantee it won't be applied consistently going forward.

[formerly known as Sam]

Ffs....if Marler gets banned at all...then my hatred of the direction world is going is complete

Snowlflakes around the world are taking over...

You sound very emotional about a person not being allowed to play a game.

Its a cheeky bit of fun thats part of humour of rugby....and everyone is screaming sexual assault.

RiP rugby if hes banned.

I don’t think this issue is about snowflakes, fairies or any minorities.

When someone grabs you by the nutsack it is intended to hurt, any male will want to react in that situation, even though often you are powerless to do so. a player either need his clock cleaned by a good uppercut, or banned, any man knows that is a low blow.

You can't have people giving nuts a squeeze on the pitch it's just not on. I don't think Marler gave more than a playful tug as AWJ remained on his feet but even so it's going to be a lengthy ban.

I remember something similar happening years ago to Julian White which resulted in White getting a red card for swinging several punches (standard Julian reaction). No TV pictures to confirm the groin pinch in that situation.

[BigGee]

I said a YC at the time but on reflection it probably was a red.

It looked like MT knew what he had done as well as he accepted the call and walked off. It was a dangerous no arm tackle at the end of the day. If GN had been carried off on a stretcher, we would not be hsving this conversation.

A very nice moment between GN and MT as he was walking off by the way. The spirit of rugby not quite dead yet!

[No 7&1/2]

These are the laws for people wanting to follow through whether it's right or wrong as there does appear to be some guesswork!

https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines

[TightHEAD]

Just think it's best for the 6nations that Italy's games are wiped from the records this year.

[formerly known as Sam]

I said a YC at the time but on reflection  it probably was a red.

It looked like MT knew what he had done as well as he accepted the call and walked off. It was a dangerous no arm tackle at the end of the day. If GN had been carried off on a stretcher, we would not be hsving this conversation.

A very nice moment between GN and MT as he was walking off by the way. The spirit of rugby not quite dead yet!

Having been in both sides of that situation. You have no idea really where the contact was when you go for a try saver like that. Both attacker and defender are moving at such speed it all changes very quickly.

Most weeks you'll see an attempted tackle like Manu's and most weeks it'll be praised for stopping a try. You won't see red cards being handed out all over the place.

Manu's a nice guy he won't have liked to see North stay down after the tackle. Good to see no hard feelings between the two.

[formerly known as Sam]

These are the laws for people wanting to follow through whether it's right or wrong as there does appear to be some guesswork!

https://laws.worldrugby.org/en/guidelines

Under mitigation.

"Head contact is indirect (starts elsewhere on the body and then slips or moves up resulting in minor contact to the BC’s head or neck)"

I still hold initial contact is arm on shoulder. So mitigation in my eyes. Difficult for the ref when he can't see the images. From the description the TMO gives the ref the ref has absolutely no choice but to go for red.

Arms are out pre contact. Watching it again this morning Manu almost pulls them away as he tries to go past the dipping player. He should no better as once committed trying to pull out late is more dangerous than just following through with the tackle.

[Guest]

Is it any different to the Liam Williams attempted try saver and red card vs South Africa a few years back? I remember us welsh trying to defend it but were shouted down!

[BigGee]

Is it any different to the Liam Williams attempted try saver and red card vs South Africa a few years back? I remember us welsh trying to defend it but were shouted down!

Indeed, that is probably a very similar example and both got punished in the same way.

For both players, I don't think there was any intent other than to make a try saving tackle, but both were dangerous and need to be discouraged.

[Collapse2005]

AWJ is a real class act to not react must have been hard not to.

[No 7&1/2]

Class act may be going too far given he looks to wind players up all game but have to say marler s gone too far with that stunt.

[George Carlin]

Andy Goode wading in on the Marler-AWJ nut squeeze. But criticising Gareth Thomas for for joking about it. I’m so confused these days about homophobia, gay rights, pro-free speech, equal opportunities, etc. I can’t decide who’s right!

UN has declared that the worldwide diversity equality harmony respect agenda will necessitate Monday being World We're Right Day for Homosexuals.  Tuesday will be for Right wing Women.  Wednesday will be for Left Wing Women.  Thursday for Whites.  Friday for Blacks.  Saturday for Racists and Sunday for Homophobes.

So neither Goode nor Thomas is right today coz they're both white.

That is a fair summation of modern Society.

[Collapse2005]

Is it any different to the Liam Williams attempted try saver and red card vs South Africa a few years back? I remember us welsh trying to defend it but were shouted down!

Indeed, that is probably a very similar example and both got punished in the same way.

For both players, I don't think there was any intent other than to make a try saving tackle, but both were dangerous and need to be discouraged.

Both avoidable in my view while still easily tackling the opponent to touch.

[Pot Hale]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak? Nut nudge?

How endearing.

[RiscaGame]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak?  Nut nudge?

How endearing.

To be fair, it’s not a great summary aside from that anyway. Farrell didn’t take offence to something, he reacted unsportingly to North losing the ball over the line.

[Collapse2005]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak?  Nut nudge?

How endearing.

I think Farrell was reacting to Lawes accidently elbowing him in the face and Farrell thought it was a Welsh player.

[SecretFly]

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/alun-wyn-jones-calls-on-world-rugby-to-act-over-joe-marlers-testicles-grab

Does not seem that AWJ found Marler's fondle as amusing as most of us did!

Those incidents are annoying as they never get punished, the appropiate response is a punch in the face but you can't do that so its a very cheap move from Marler so hope it does get punished.

Sean O Brien missed a world cup knock out game because he reacted to a french player grabbing him in a similar way. They are designed to get a reaction to get people carded so fairly low life move IMO.

I think AWJ is asking that same question.  Don't think he'd initially be interested in a ban but just putting his mark on the incident his way - i.e. throwing a punch.  Not being victim, not cowering behind a ref, but defending his personal no-go areas in the age old manly way of making the act have painful repercussions.

He was strongly hinting that would have been his preferred response but a looming instant red card perhaps controlled the urge.

So.  Question for everyone is:  would he have been within his rights to defend his personal 'space' by letting Marler know he was off limits with a good punch?  I say in normal circumstance - yes.  Anybody tries playing around with me in that area and it's going to get physical pretty quick.  The legal consequences would be for another day but I wouldn't walk away.  And few of us would if we're being honest.

But this is a rugby game, taking place under many camera angles.  Punching is instant red card territory.
So, I go back to a recent Pro14 game where a player threw two punches in quick succession.  You'd assume just a rapid fire red was shown but nope, not so.  It took actually quite a while for ref and TMO to come to a complete conclusion.  Ref hinted that yep, he'd seen the punches clearly but he wanted to roll back to see probable mitigating circumstances.  Because of the player involved, I kinda instantly got what he might have been looking for - perhaps incendiary comments that might have had bigger consequences than the actual punches.  He saw nothing and gave the red.

But in AWJ thinking he'd have risked an instant red - well perhaps.  But the ref and TMO would still have had to look at the complete incident, and public opinion being what it is these days, they wouldn't have been able to ignore the Strong visuals that AWJ was Strongly provoked.

[BigGee]

Yes and no Fly

I don't think it would have been viewed as mitigation if AWJ had clocked him and they had rolled the csmeras back to see the provocation.

From time and memorial, retaliation has always been seen as being worse than the crime ans so he would still hsve walked.

The real question would be, the ref having noted what Marler did, would he have walked with him?

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