ENGLAND v WALES - Match Thread / Build up - 7/3/2020

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

England    v Wales    - 07/03/2020 - 16:45pm - the HOME of Rugby.

England XV

Daly; Watson, Tuilagi, Farrell, May; Ford, Youngs; Marler, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes, Wilson, Curry

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Launchbury, Ewels, Earl, Heinz, Slade

Wales XV

Halfpenny; North, Tompkins, Parkes, Williams; Biggar, T Williams; R Evans, Owens, D Lewis, Ball, AW Jones (capt), Moriarty, Navidi, Tipuric.

Replacements: Elias, Carre, L Brown, Shingler, Faletau, Webb, J Evans, McNicholl.


Overall - Played 134 - Eng 63 - Wales 59 - Drawn 12

[No 7&1/2]

We've already had this situation in the 6 nations of course. The postponed game was played.

[Dirtydave]

When was that 7.5? What game and when did they play?

[No 7&1/2]

October.

[Dirtydave]

Interesting, difficult to see Italy playing 2 games in October tho, seasons just started, clubs won't want to lose players etc

[mikey_dragon]

We've already had this situation in the 6 nations of course. The postponed game was played.

Are you referring to France vs Ireland a few years back? It was sort of mid-tournament so they played a week later when everyone would usually have a fortnight off. I’m not sure if that period is in or out of the international window.

[No 7&1/2]

Ireland england mikey. They'll find the time for the games.

[mikey_dragon]

I don’t remember that one, and they replayed in October?

[No 7&1/2]

2001. Foot and mouth.

[Collapse2005]

An Ireland v France game was also postponed a few years ago for a frozen pitch but I think that time the replay was played on a rest weekend.

[RiscaGame]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak?  Nut nudge?

How endearing.

To be fair, it’s not a great summary aside from that anyway. Farrell didn’t take offence to something, he reacted unsportingly to North losing the ball over the line.

Yes because people normally react angrily to winning a turnover right in front of their try line. As Collapse points out it was Lawes elbow making contact. Farrell obviously mistook it for North and took exception. In those pile ups there's always something and it's not always easy to realise who did it.

I remember someone standing on my back in the middle of a ruck and grabbing who I thought was the culprit to exchange some pleasantries. Whilst he and a couple of his teammates disagreed with me my team scored. As we walked back for the restart my flanker was looking slightly sheepish and told me I'd been collateral damage.

How could Farrell possibly think Lawes glancing his head on the way past, was North? North was under him, for one. I suggested he was over celebrating North spilling the ball, not reacting angrily.

Tangle of bodies he'll have had no idea who and where. He just petulantly went for the closest Welsh shirt. It wasn't exactly a well thought and logical reaction was it. He felt a glancing blow to the head and assumed foul play. He was amongst several that were too amped up for the game as seen by the mass pile in after.

Fair enough, I don’t want to come across as overly argumentative. I did see a replay of it, when I asked earlier this aft and I can see how he could be considered annoyed, rather than over celebrating the non score. I’m not overly worried about it anyway, so I’ll leave it there.

[LondonTiger]

When was that 7.5? What game and when did they play?

There were a few games due to be played in Dublin that were postponed due to the foot and mouth outbreak in mainland UK. The most well remembered one being Englands visit to Ireland on 20th October (just after my eldest daughter was born). In the spring England were flying, playing the best rugby they ever managed under SCW, but during the summer Lions tour something happened that knocked the confidence of some of the English players (most notably Balshaw who was never the same after his time under Graham Henry). England were well beaten and another GS match was lost.

[SecretFly]

In short, we released foot and mouth on purpose....

[LondonTiger]

In short, we released foot and mouth on purpose....

To stop the Irish hordes going to the Cheltenham Festival?

[SecretFly]

In short, we released foot and mouth on purpose....

To stop the Irish hordes going to the Cheltenham Festival?

Small sacrifice.

...or in short, feck the horsey set!

[Guest]

I enjoyed the game as a neutral and didn't think the refs got much wrong.

On the red card there is a framework to work thru:
Has foul play been committed?  Yes.  No arms tackle.  Penalty.
Contact with the head?  Yes  clearly shoulder to head.
With Force?  Yes.
Mitigation -?  Tackled player is going down but because its an reckless act ie foul play no mitigation.

conclusion - red card.  correct under the laws.

If Tuilagi had not gone for the no arms tackle he would not have hit North on the head.  the fact he wasn't aiming at the head but at the ribs does not matter. His reckless conduct ( no arms tackle) resulted in North getting a shoulder to the head.  If it was a legal tackle with arms it would be different.

https://mobile.twitter.com/OptaJonny/status/1236361575784742912?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1236361575784742912&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fsport%2Frugby-union%2F51784107

No arms?

Covering tackles at speed like that being described as reckless is correct but at the same time they are all reckless because of the speed and the fact you are targeting a player that low. Do you want then taking out the game? Because if so it's virtually a try every time a winger attempts to dive into the corner as you can't try to stop them anymore. Manu making contact with the head is accidental and initial contact is with the shoulder. That might make it red by the letter of the law but you can guarantee it won't be applied consistently going forward.

This is as bad as the Kiwis last summer. You're defending the indefensible.

[Guest]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak?  Nut nudge?

How endearing.

I think Farrell was reacting to Lawes accidently elbowing him in the face and Farrell thought it was a Welsh player.

Strange reaction to be laughing and looking straight at North as he did it if that's the case. If his eyesight is that poor he shouldn't be on a rugby field.

[TightHEAD]

What's the latest with Alun Whinge Jones?

[Guest]

Nice of you to show concern for his wellbeing after the head injury he suffered from Courtney Lawes' dangerous tackle. We'll have to wait and see TightHead.

[TightHEAD]

Rugby is a big boys game, all these accusations of dangerous play is getting rather boring.

Just deal with the defeat and move on.

[yappysnap]

King_Carlos, you’ve given me a great idea for work tomorrow - a full speed no arms Tuilagi-style shoulder charge on my boss just as she’s walking down the corridor swigging her gingerbread latte! I’ll just say I learnt it off the tele box!

I often read these boards in work at my desk in a very quite law firm. This post has caused me problems with how loudly I laughed!

[Pie]

Marler

Some sausages will grab anyone's sausage

Richard head

[Pie]

What's the latest with Alun Whinge Jones?

Some sausages will say anything for a cheap shot

[Pie]

Fact is Eddie is headshot....two defeats in RWC final! no man can imagine ho writer he feels and his increasingly volatile relationship with press is indicative of the fact he won't take England to the next RWC. He openly admits he doesnt like coaching and even winning is just short term relief. His coarse ungentlemanly manner smacks of old colonial inferiority and doesnt sit well with England's rugby establishment and I bet my sausages he is on borrowed time

[king_carlos]

[TightHEAD]

What's the latest with Alun Whinge Jones?

Some sausages will say anything for a cheap shot

Who doesn't love a sausage?

[Collapse2005]

What started the fracass with AWJ and Marler in the first place?

Farrell took offence to something and shoved North at the bottom of the ruck. Some of the Welsh players were unhappy with the forced knock on close to the line. Basically a big fuss over nothing. AWJ was at the centre pointing, pushing and shouting. Apparently he didn't appreciate Marler's cheeky tweak. I don't know if Marler was hoping AWJ would lose his temper completely and swing for him though any punch would have been reviewed and the nut nudge would have been found so that wouldn't have been a good tactic.

Cheeky tweak?  Nut nudge?

How endearing.

I think Farrell was reacting to Lawes accidently elbowing him in the face and Farrell thought it was a Welsh player.

Strange reaction to be laughing and looking straight at North as he did it if that's the case. If his eyesight is that poor he shouldn't be on a rugby field.

Dont think he was laughing he was shouting and wincing as one of his eyes were shut presumably from getting an elbow to the eye. He may have been goading North, hard to tell.

[Guest]

'The Saracens wince' is that what they call it?

[Collapse2005]

Its probably unique to Farrell, he does something similar when he lines up a kick.

[LondonTiger]

Lets face it, he does have the kind of "face" you want to slap.

[Sharkey06]

It is the inconsistency of the refereeing/TMO’ing that is frustrating.  I think Tuilagi’s red card was harsh as I think there were mitigating circumstances – Slade tackled North somewhat unconventionally with his head on the wrong side and North was diving which changed the angles at the last second.  But if it is a red card under the rules then fine.  I don’t see though what is exponentially worse about that than the ‘tackle’ put in by Hadleigh Parkes on Tuilagi in the first half.  To me there was the same amount if not more force applied to the head in the Parkes challenge than the Tuilagi one.  Yes the Tuilagi one looked spectacular because North was diving through the air, but I could see no mitigating circumstances for the Parkes tackle – Tuilagi was running upright and straight and Parkes simply chose to hit him high.

Why was Leon Brown’s no arm chop tackle on Kyle Sinkler not reviewed?  Why was the no arm off the ball challenge by Ryhs Carre on Owen Farrell not reviewed?  I appreciate England through Tuilagi scored the try a few seconds after those incidents, but both of them deserved at least looking at.  Why was Dan Biggar’s deliberate trip of Owen Farrell in the first half not reviewed?  All these incidents were clearly caught on camera and replayed during the tv match coverage straight away.
I don’t want to see rugby games turned into 11 a side matches because of a flurry of red and yellow cards – there were a number of 50:50 tackles by both sides – I would just like to see consistency.

And just to show I am not totally biased I hope Marler is given the longest ban possible under the rules for what he did to Alun Wyn Jones.  There is no place on a rugby pitch for that, particularly if it was done to provoke a reaction.  Rugby is a tough enough sport with the risk of accidental injuries without idiots deliberately trying to cause damage.  I appreciate that this wasn’t replayed on the TV coverage until half time, but why was this incident not reviewed when Alun Wyn Jones clearly raised it at the time?  Had it been then Marler would have deserved a red card and Wales would probably have won the game.

I also hope that Owen Farrell is given a final warning by Eddie Jones on his petulance.  His unnecessary slapping of George North provoked the handbags which ended up with Marler’s act of stupidity and cost England 3 points.  Add that to the penalty count against England throughout the game and there seems to be a discipline problem in the squad that Jones needs to address.  We saw with the France v Scotland game the impact that one act of stupidity can have for a team and England need to improve.

Yes we won so I shouldn't probably waste time moaning about the officials, particularly as we were lucky that Marler wasn't red carded, but had Nigel Owens been refereeing I think he would have reviewed the TV footage and made his own mind up on the Tulagi tackle.  Whereas in this game Marius Jonker seemed to be coaching the referee.  Also in the Scotland v France game Wayne Barnes seemed to be doing a lot of the deciding rather than the referee Paul Williams.  And why was the dump tackle by Cros and Willemse not a red card offence for at least one of them? The tackle by Cros was unintentionally clumsy and dangerous, but Willemse clearly tipped the player over and drove him head first into the ground.

[mikey_dragon]

Why are folk still crying about Farrell being tripped by Biggar? He was tripped instantly after he pushed Biggar over off the ball. Curry and Tuilagi both put in an illegal tackle on Biggar in the third minute, I’m surprised you’re not mentioning that one either. 

Is Eddie going to be fined for his “it was 16 vs 13” jibe, or will england get away with another one?

[Soul Requiem]

Why are folk still crying about Farrell being tripped by Biggar? He was tripped instantly after he pushed Biggar over off the ball. Curry and Tuilagi both put in an illegal tackle on Biggar in the third minute, I’m surprised you’re not mentioning that one either. 

Is Eddie going to be fined for his “it was 16 vs 13” jibe, or will england get away with another one?

Nothing illegal about that hit at all.

[mikey_dragon]

No arms shoulder charge = illegal. There was an attempt to wrap by Curry but not Tuilagi.

[TightHEAD]

16!

I made it 19, two touch judges and TMO were not on our side either.

Horrendous amount of forward passes by Wales missed, again!
Maybe there should be a scientific study in how 'red shirts' creates an optical illusion that seemingly decent officials miss forward passes.

[Soul Requiem]

No arms shoulder charge = illegal. There was an attempt to wrap by Curry but not Tuilagi.

Both wrapped their arms.

[eirebilly]

I can see why the ref gave the red card to Tuilagi but personally I think its hard to card players for covering tackles like that.

Cant really see much else that the referee and his assistants got wrong during the game.

[RiscaGame]

I am sure the citing officer will soon put all this to bed and we can all sleep safe and sound, knowing that Wales did nothing wrong and those nasty English people will be in more trouble. I am willing to be my lunch money on it

[TightHEAD]

Gwyn Jones didn't hold back on Scrum V!

Can't wait to see how Salty they are due to the weekends wonderful result.

[SecretFly]

I am sure the citing officer will soon put all this to bed and we can all sleep safe and sound, knowing that Wales did nothing wrong and those nasty English people will be in more trouble. I am willing to be my lunch money on it

Here! Here! Well said, sir! Putting the English in their box, what! Good show!

[TightHEAD]

Why wasn't Liam Williams taking out Daly in the air looked at again?

happened around the 6th minute mark just before the handbags and Marler having a moment!

[No9]

No arms shoulder charge = illegal. There was an attempt to wrap by Curry but not Tuilagi.

Both wrapped their arms.

Suggest you get your eyes tested if you think Tuilagi wrapped his arms.. there was no attempt to wrap... RED card every day...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/51795296

Video here clearly shows now attempt to wrap, and Tuilagi knew the red was coming...

[Soul Requiem]

No arms shoulder charge = illegal. There was an attempt to wrap by Curry but not Tuilagi.

Both wrapped their arms.

Suggest you get your eyes tested if you think Tuilagi wrapped his arms.. there was no attempt to wrap... RED card every day...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/rugby-union/51795296

Video here clearly shows now attempt to wrap, and Tuilagi knew the red was coming...

Best to know what incident is being discussed.

[No9]

Why wasn't Liam Williams taking out Daly in the air looked at again?

happened around the 6th minute mark just before the handbags and Marler having a moment!

Because he didnt take him out in the air, as you well know..

[No9]

Wow.. there's some churlish bickering going on this site.. Reminds me why I left here...

England won, fair play... To be honest, I thought the scoreline would have been far greater.

So well done England.. Triple Crown deserved and with France slipping up yesterday, I reckon the title is yours as well.... if it ever gets completed.

[TightHEAD]

To be honest, I thought the scoreline would have been far greater.

It was until the 16th man decided otherwise with 2 1/2 mins to go.

[RiscaGame]

It amazes me, how people hold Uncle Eddie's ramblings in such high regard. There was a time, when Warren Gatland used to get slammed, for similar rants etc in his pressers.

[TightHEAD]

Owens should have been yellow carded for the high swinging arm tackle on Youngs head!

I think the point is all fans want is consistent refereeing and use of the TMO. Owens shot in slow motion (as well as Parks cheap shot on Manu) with a booing crowd noise behind could easily have influenced the Ref to take action, just because England scored doesn't mean it shouldn't have been looked at.

[Guest]

Eddie Jones doesn't even want the England job and wants out of his contract early. True story. I think he's trying to get sacked!

[SecretFly]

It amazes me, how people hold Uncle Eddie's ramblings in such high regard. There was a time, when Warren Gatland used to get slammed, for similar rants etc in his pressers.

All part of the theatre, as Eddie himself alludes to.  Coaches like Eddie and Warren have their crack and the media/social media have their crack back.  They all love it.  The affected bit is the anger.  It's all love and theatre.

[TightHEAD]

If I was a coach knowing everything I said in a conference would be turned and twisted to suit the agenda of the Journalist, I would wind them up too.

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