Wales v Scotland Saturday 14th March 2020

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Wales v Scotland
6N 5th Round

Principality Stadium
Cardiff

KO 14.15

Well Scotland and Wales draw the long straw and are the ones to be able to get their 6N competition played and out of the way. The way results have gone this time around was always going to make this an interesting game and now everyone is going to be concentrating on this match.

Cardiff, as it has often been said, has not proved to be a happy hunting ground for Scottish teams for a long long time. Is this year going to be any different. Well form might suggest that it may be. A Wales side in transition, new coach, new style and several newish players, have so far struggled a bit this year. Plenty of heart on show as always, but not really quite getting the new tactics and consequently making far to many errors. They have also been handicapped by an appalling injury list and that may be getting even worse following the very bruising match against England last weekend.

Scotland, on the other hand have built pretty well into the tournament and played their best game so far in beating France comfortably at the weekend. France, it should be reminded, were fancied to tie up their first GS in a long time after winning their first three games.

Scotland's own tournament has not been incident free, with Finngate taking centre stage and a lot of Scottish fans dissatisfied with the direction Toonie seemed to be taking this Scottish team and calling for his head. After two wins on the bounce though, the pressure on Toonie and the team seems to have abated a bit and some more serious thinkers are coming round to the conclusion that maybe Toonie, in trying to make Scotland a more structured team that are first and foremost, hard to beat, may actually be on to something. Certainly some of the coaching appointments prior to this tournament are looking nothing short of inspired. Who would ever have believed that after 4 rounds, Scotland would have the best defensive record in the tournament?

Still for all the positives, this is still Wales in Cardiff, a wounded and angry Wales, who will badly want to salvage some pride from an otherwise disappointing tournament. This is a real test as to the progression of this Scotland team, can they turn some promise into hard results.

For Wales, losing 4 out of 5 is probably approaching the unthinkable, especially to Scotland, who have always been seen as a soft touch. This will be a fascinating encounter in so many ways.

I am hoping for Scotland team something along these lines, there won't be many/any changes from the last game:

1. Sutherland - a shout for player of the tournament, has been outstanding
2. McInally - Toonie seems keen to rotate them
3. Fagerson
4. Cummings
5. Gilchrist - came back into the team with something to prove and proved it
6. Ritchie - the man everyone loves to hate
7. Watson
8. Haining - assuming not suspended, Bradbury if he is
9. Horne - is not now then when, deserves a start
10. Hastings
11. Maitland
12. Johnson - owns the shirt now, has had a good tournament
13. Harris - even the many doubters quietly impressed on sunday
14. Kinghorn - under pressure from Steyn though
15. Hogg - has grown into the captaincy

Subs:

Dell
Brown
Nel
Skinner
Bradbury (Fagerson if Haining out)
Price
Hutchinson - Hastings seems to have got over his wobbles in Italy and it is the last game of the tournament and no weather issues indoors
Steyn - Not much time on his debut, but did well

Out of interest, what's the Welsh perspective on Alun Wyn Jones currently? For years going into the Wales match I hoped that Gilchrist or Gray would put in a coming of age type performance against him and they consistently failed to deliver. However in this tournament, so far, he's seemed relatively underpowered coming up against the likes of Ryan and Itoje.

RiscaGame wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

Scotland still look a bit of a soft touch up front. They're better than they have been under Townsend by the looks of things but still look soft. If Wales have a platform, it means more opportunity to run the ball and score tries, but more importantly they're less likely to concede them as they might stand a chance of winning the gainline.

Not sure I agree with that comment. We have had at least parity with every pack we have played against in the 6N, and we dominated Italy and France up front. For me the Welsh pack looks a bit squishy more than the Scotland pack. England, Ireland and France had the welsh scrum in all kinds of trouble, and I feel that Watson and Ritchie will be tough to contain on Saturday.

However the best complement I have seen regarding Scotland is that we now seem to be "street wise", basically we have been cheating and getting away with it more often!

I will concede that the Scottish line out has been something of a shambles. I expect AWJ to pinch our ball with impunity when and if (and its a big if) our hooker whoever that may be throws it in straight.

Interestingly, I don't think we compete too well at defensive lineouts. I am sure a better mind than mine, could point to stats to potentially disprove that, but I never seem to notice us particularly challenging lineouts or certainly picking throws off.

Please be quiet and let me continue to talk you guys up!

I really don't know what to expect from this weekend. Cardiff is such an unhappy place for traveling Scotland teams, great place for the traveling Scotland fans though

It's quite strange though how Scotland and Wales have almost inverted.

Scotland with a historically wimpy pack and questionable defence but razor sharp attacking rugby.
Wales now showing sharp attack in contrast to the Gatland bludgeon but the red wall in defence now seems like a distant memory.

Really looking forward to it tho.

123456789. wrote:Out of interest, what's the Welsh perspective on Alun Wyn Jones currently? For years going into the Wales match I hoped that Gilchrist or Gray would put in a coming of age type performance against him and they consistently failed to deliver. However in this tournament, so far, he's seemed relatively underpowered coming up against the likes of Ryan and Itoje.

Not sure he's ever been that powerful. For years a lot of the Lions talk has been about how he couldn't punch his way our of a wet paper bag! He brings the 'pash-un' (said in a shouty Scott Quinnell voice) and is a very good leader for us, but I don't think he's the biggest carrier or power player, and never really has been for me.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

guestalt_physicality wrote:

Scotland still look a bit of a soft touch up front. They're better than they have been under Townsend by the looks of things but still look soft. If Wales have a platform, it means more opportunity to run the ball and score tries, but more importantly they're less likely to concede them as they might stand a chance of winning the gainline.

Not sure I agree with that comment. We have had at least parity with every pack we have played against in the 6N, and we dominated Italy and France up front. For me the Welsh pack looks a bit squishy more than the Scotland pack. England, Ireland and France had the welsh scrum in all kinds of trouble, and I feel that Watson and Ritchie will be tough to contain on Saturday.

However the best complement I have seen regarding Scotland is that we now seem to be "street wise", basically we have been cheating and getting away with it more often!

I will concede that the Scottish line out has been something of a shambles. I expect AWJ to pinch our ball with impunity when and if (and its a big if) our hooker whoever that may be throws it in straight.

Interestingly, I don't think we compete too well at defensive lineouts. I am sure a better mind than mine, could point to stats to potentially disprove that, but I never seem to notice us particularly challenging lineouts or certainly picking throws off.

Please be quiet and let me continue to talk you guys up!

I really don't know what to expect from this weekend. Cardiff is such an unhappy place for traveling Scotland teams, great place for the traveling Scotland fans though

It's quite strange though how Scotland and Wales have almost inverted.

Scotland with a historically wimpy pack and questionable defence but razor sharp attacking rugby.
Wales now showing sharp attack in contrast to the Gatland bludgeon but the red wall in defence now seems like a distant memory.

Really looking forward to it tho.

Hopefully we're not back to the 90's and early 2000s days of Wales - flashy backs, some lovely tries....... but soft underbelly and overpowered by everyone!

123456789. wrote:Out of interest, what's the Welsh perspective on Alun Wyn Jones currently? However in this tournament, so far, he's seemed relatively underpowered coming up against the likes of Ryan and Itoje.

He has looked like his been cooked for years. Yet he still keeps pulling off performances worthy of a younger man. I think it will be a while before we see him withdraw from the squad and retire.

The Oracle wrote:

123456789. wrote:Out of interest, what's the Welsh perspective on Alun Wyn Jones currently? For years going into the Wales match I hoped that Gilchrist or Gray would put in a coming of age type performance against him and they consistently failed to deliver. However in this tournament, so far, he's seemed relatively underpowered coming up against the likes of Ryan and Itoje.

Not sure he's ever been that powerful.  For years a lot of the Lions talk has been about how he couldn't punch his way our of a wet paper bag!  He brings the 'pash-un' (said in a shouty Scott Quinnell voice) and is a very good leader for us, but I don't think he's the biggest carrier or power player, and never really has been for me.

He's going to be the most capped player in history, and hugely important to Wales in lots of ways. I do think he's one of those guys whose importance to his own team completely outweighs his actual abilities. I would not have him instead of any of the top 4 England locks (although he has been more consistent than Kruis at least) but he's been the beating heart of Wales for such a long time.

Next Lions Captain no doubt!

Weighing up all the variables Wales still come out on top for me. They know they should win this one and as Hadleigh Parkes says in his bbc column Wales want to go out on a high before their summer tour. This 6N will still go down as a learning curve form them though, regardless of Saturday result.

If the Welsh expansive game works and Scotland find themselves 14 - 0 down, I’ll be very interested to see how Scotland cope. How do they plan to get back into the game? So far they’ve been tight in defence but Wales will throw it around a lot I imagine.

This has all the ingredients for another thriller of a test match.

bsando wrote:Weighing up all the variables Wales still come out on top for me. They know they should win this one and as Hadleigh Parkes says in his bbc column Wales want to go out on a high before their summer tour. This 6N will still go down as a learning curve form them though, regardless of Saturday result.

If the Welsh expansive game works and Scotland find themselves 14 - 0 down, I’ll be very interested to see how Scotland cope. How do they plan to get back into the game? So far they’ve been tight in defence but Wales will throw it around a lot I imagine.

This has all the ingredients for another thriller of a test match.

This is an interesting one. Which of the two sides has shown the greater composure during the tournament so far?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bsando wrote:Weighing up all the variables Wales still come out on top for me. They know they should win this one and as Hadleigh Parkes says in his bbc column Wales want to go out on a high before their summer tour. This 6N will still go down as a learning curve form them though, regardless of Saturday result.

If the Welsh expansive game works and Scotland find themselves 14 - 0 down, I’ll be very interested to see how Scotland cope. How do they plan to get back into the game? So far they’ve been tight in defence but Wales will throw it around a lot I imagine.

This has all the ingredients for another thriller of a test match.

This is an interesting one. Which of the two sides has shown the greater composure during the tournament so far?

Hogg dropping the ball vs AWJ not punching Marler?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bsando wrote:Weighing up all the variables Wales still come out on top for me. They know they should win this one and as Hadleigh Parkes says in his bbc column Wales want to go out on a high before their summer tour. This 6N will still go down as a learning curve form them though, regardless of Saturday result.

If the Welsh expansive game works and Scotland find themselves 14 - 0 down, I’ll be very interested to see how Scotland cope. How do they plan to get back into the game? So far they’ve been tight in defence but Wales will throw it around a lot I imagine.

This has all the ingredients for another thriller of a test match.

This is an interesting one. Which of the two sides has shown the greater composure during the tournament so far?

I'd have said on a whole I think both teams have shown quite a bit of composure. I think individuals within said teams have not shown composure at all times and made some uncharacteristic defensive or attacking errors. Hogg, North, Liam Williams and Fraser Brown / Stuart McInally have made mistakes that have changed the fortunes of the matches they have been playing in.

I was thinking mainly that Wales have often looked quite rushed with ball in hand this tournament, as if the desire to play quickly has outweighed whether they're ready to move the ball, or whether it's even on. I think in the past Scotland might try to run their way out of trouble, but now there seems to be a pragmatism that might have been missing in the past. Wales, on the other hand, seem to have gone the other way.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

bsando wrote:Weighing up all the variables Wales still come out on top for me. They know they should win this one and as Hadleigh Parkes says in his bbc column Wales want to go out on a high before their summer tour. This 6N will still go down as a learning curve form them though, regardless of Saturday result.

If the Welsh expansive game works and Scotland find themselves 14 - 0 down, I’ll be very interested to see how Scotland cope. How do they plan to get back into the game? So far they’ve been tight in defence but Wales will throw it around a lot I imagine.

This has all the ingredients for another thriller of a test match.

This is an interesting one. Which of the two sides has shown the greater composure during the tournament so far?

I think Scotland have shown greater composure in defence (never thought I'd see myself writing that) but have shown greater flappiness in attack than Wales who maintain their cutting edge. As was mentioned earlier this is a very peculiar role reversal I don't think many of us were expecting. That being said I'd be surprised if Scotland pulled off a win on Saturday. If you think of the amount of times we've come close away from home against other sides and still managed to lose, that sort of mentality doesn't disappear unless you're winning regularly. Even so, we will need to soon. For me this would fully justify Toonie staying if Scotland won Saturday, even if I don't agree with his style of 'playbook' attack coaching.

Wales have enough to beat us though if they can stay even relatively solid in defence. Absorb our attack, stay disciplined and we end up devoid of ideas and leave the 22 with no or 3 points tops as we don't have as many quality distributors as we have in the past. I'd say it'll be probably something along the lines of 17-10 to Wales.

My gut says this we will be in the game until the last but won't quite pull off a win. I think we could win. I do think these are fairly evenly matched sides. Both have experienced back threes, chances are five out of the six starters will be 2013 Lions. Nick Tompkins and Chris Harris are similar players. Tompkins is almost certainly better but Harris has more experience at this level. Similarly Parkes and Johnson are fairly similar. Biggar is better than Hastings and has more experience but Hastings played well last time out, if he shows up again it could be a fairly even match. The packs seem to have had a shift, Scotland have the form but Wales have the class. I think that the Welsh will show up on the day and win by around six points with us scoring late to make it a tight finish.

Fail to see what AWJ has done wrong thus far, for all the ones critiquing him? His stats are always good. He was never a destructive ball carrier in the Tuilagi mould, if that’s what you were expecting. We don’t have many good locks tbh and we’re suffering with a few injuries, but currently have 3-4 promising ones in the U20s. Ospreys have just brought half Rhys Davies, so it’ll be interesting to see if he comes good.

I'm not saying he's done a huge amount wrong, very little in fact, just that where in previous seasons he was utterly totemic and probably the best in the world in his position he doesn't quite seem to be hitting the heights on this occasion. If AWJ was the benchmark for a European lock over the last few years then Itoje and Ryan have matched him thus far this season. If our players have pretensions of reaching that standard then they've got to do the same.

Itoje and Ryan are probably better individual players tbh. Itoje is class. I wouldn’t trade, but I’d happily have both play alongside AWJ . It could be Ryan at 2nd row with Itoje at 6 for the Lions. I feel that’s the most likely with the next lock spot up for grabs.

I think the standard in the back-row is too high for the Lions to start messing about with a second-row at blindside (I'd personally love to see a fully fit and on form Faletau at 6, Watson at 7 and Vunipola at 8 going up against the Springboks for slightly masochistic reasons, especially if you got Tuilagi in the centre). I think Itoje, Ryan and Lawes are nailed on. If AWJ can regain his usual standard he's not just on the plane but flying it. Probably leaving a spot for the Grays, Cummings, Gilchrist, Henderson and Ball to fight over.

AWJ will be 36 during the next lions tour - would be a remarkable achievement if he's still up to scratch.

I’d be surprised if AWJ made it. Itoje at 6 was more about getting all the best players on the pitch at once, and you’d need the extra weight and power against the Boks. I think front-row and No.7 are probably the positions where the Lions will have the most strength. There’ll be a few good 7s to miss out for sure - and yes it would be nice to see Watson get that recognition.

mikey_dragon wrote:I’d be surprised if AWJ made it. Itoje at 6 was more about getting all the best players on the pitch at once, and you’d need the extra weight and power against the Boks. I think front-row and No.7 are probably the positions where the Lions will have the most strength. There’ll be a few good 7s to miss out for sure - and yes it would be nice to see Watson get that recognition.

Watson's lack of versatility could work against him - the other options have played across the back row in their careers.

Out of all the Scottish players I'd love it if Hamish made it though - he's an absolute freak of nature and would thrive in that environment.

Scotland play 2 tests against SA this summer - you couldn't ask for a better audition! Will be s huge test for Scotland though given its SA's first games since the WC and the end of a long season for us.

Do Scotland have a new coach incoming?

mikey_dragon wrote:Do Scotland have a new coach incoming?

Whens Pivac available?

Gooseberry wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Do Scotland have a new coach incoming?

Whens Pivac available?

 
2022.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/untold-real-story-welshman-who-17828025

Remember this debacle back in 2012? Back when Scotland's depth at centre was about as deep as a paddling pool? Quite interesting to hear his thoughts on the whole thing. I was quite disappointed at the time because I thought Shingler would be quite a handy player to have in the squad. However, after hearing his thoughts on the whole thing it seems the right outcome came about despite him never earning an international cap for Wales. Just glad he has no regrets and is happy with his rugby and they way things have panned out.

Yes we remember. The fallout was unreal. Wales or the WRU hadn’t done anything wrong.

Suggestions in the press that at today's COBRA meeting the Govt will state that football matches must be played behind closed doors and pubs banned from showing games. All speculation but if it comes to pass will surely have an impact on other big sporting events.

I hope not, I’ve bought tickets...

I thought that kind of decision had to go through parliament, will mean at least 1 week of chatter before its passed?

Unless COBRA stuff overrides the usual debate of parliament?

LondonTiger wrote:football matches must be played behind closed doors and pubs banned from showing games.

This is the Brexit I voted for 

But yeah it would be a bit ridiculpous if they limited it to one sport, rugby will be hit by this too. One would hope just for games over a certain crowd size, so maybe the Pro 14 wont be affected.

Tramptastic wrote:I thought that kind of decision had to go through parliament, will mean at least 1 week of chatter before its passed?

Unless COBRA stuff overrides the usual debate of parliament?

I believe they can implement emergency measures and then get Parliamentary approval.

Ah so it's a retroactive approval?

mmm i think it's going to be played behind closed doors...

Tramptastic wrote:Ah so it's a retroactive approval?

mmm i think it's going to be played behind closed doors...

Well, if they are going to play it behind closed doors (ticket holders disappointed but reimbursed) why not just do like some people initially thought was going to happen anyway? All three games meant for this weekend postponed until the end of October?
That way they'd (6N people) have their more juicy super Saturday feel about the delayed games and I'd assume people with tickets for this weekend would have them honoured come October.

bsando wrote:https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/untold-real-story-welshman-who-17828025

Remember this debacle back in 2012? Back when Scotland's depth at centre was about as deep as a paddling pool? Quite interesting to hear his thoughts on the whole thing. I was quite disappointed at the time because I thought Shingler would be quite a handy player to have in the squad. However, after hearing his thoughts on the whole thing it seems the right outcome came about despite him never earning an international cap for Wales. Just glad he has no regrets and is happy with his rugby and they way things have panned out.  

Was all very farcical.

Legally the WRU didnt have a leg to stand on and then they go and start capping players like Moriarty and Tompkins who playerd for England U20s. The whole affair reeked of contradiction. Have to feel for Shingler who was jsut blocked from playing international rugby by the WRU.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

The WRU were proved to have every leg to stand on.

Gosh how can you still be bitter over it. The WRU didn’t do anything wrong.

Shingler (Steve) was crap btw.

SecretFly wrote:

Tramptastic wrote:Ah so it's a retroactive approval?

mmm i think it's going to be played behind closed doors...

Well, if they are going to play it behind closed doors (ticket holders disappointed but reimbursed) why not just do like some people initially thought was going to happen anyway?  All three games meant for this weekend postponed until the end of October?
That way they'd (6N people) have their more juicy super Saturday feel about the delayed games and I'd assume people with tickets for this weekend would have them honoured come October.

That would make more sense, would result in less disappointed punters, although Scottish supporters would be hoping for A) the game to go ahead B) a Scotland win so we'd be top of the table for 6 months

The WRU were right to do it at the time.

I am happy U20 as a designated second team has been eliminated. It was ridiculous to tie players down who were barely professional and had little way of saying no. The Shingler affair probably had a lot to do with getting rid of it, just a shame the rule change ended up costing Scotland Tommaso Allan to Italy.

mikey_dragon wrote:Gosh how can you still be bitter over it. The WRU didn’t do anything wrong.

Shingler (Steve) was crap btw.

Maybe bitter at the time but remember how truely awful Scotland were and how desperate for any kind of back that could do a step/pass the ball well/have pace - Steven Shingler, at the time, was able to do all three of these!

Not bitter any more, it does highlight how farcical the tying of players to countries was between various different nations (U20s doesnt count for one nation but does for another because they don't have an A team).

Did they get Cobra to declare the defection of Shingler as a national emergency and not let him go to any major sporting events again?

The laws that dictated the decision were a tad ridiculous but Wales needed to look after themselves so I'm not really bitter that they took action. It was also around the time that some genuinely good centres of our own came through, the likes of Matt Scott, Alex Dunbar and Pete Horne have all proved to have better careers than Steve Shingler. There's a fair cohort of late Andy Robinson players that have amounted to fairly solid Championship players and nothing more. Tom Heathcote and Alex Grove being other ones.

Countries like South Africa probably don’t think the tying of players to their country via the U20s was farcical.

Tramptastic wrote:I thought that kind of decision had to go through parliament, will mean at least 1 week of chatter before its passed?

Unless COBRA stuff overrides the usual debate of parliament?

Given Nadine Dorries getting the virus there are good reasons why COBRA should be behind closed doors.

The Fail think Cory Hill is likely to start this weekend. Interesting.

I feel sorry for Steven Shingler. I love Scotland and it would have been my ultimate ambition as a player to play for Scotland.

However having a Welsh parent myself, I do also feel I'd be equally proud to play for Wales.

The laws are very cut and dry, but for me (especially when its your parents nationalities) eligibility shouldn't be so cut and dry, because speaking for myself, the emotional aspect isn't as cut and dry.

I don't mind that teams can tie players to them via the u20s if that was a blanket rule across the board. It just seems a tad silly to me that had he pulled a hamstring in the warm up for that one game against France then he would be free to play for whomever he wanted even though he played every other game. Like all things with rugby it's the odd inconsistencies that are baffling. A blanket system that says you can play for another international team if you've played at u20s for one country but only after, for argument's sake, two years would make more sense. As has been pointed out if England had the same registration rules as Wales then Moriarty and Tompkins wouldn't be running out for them now.

https://www.scottishrugby.org/news/three-changes-for-championship-finale

McInally, Skinner and Bradbury start

Haining is ill apparently

Otherwise unchanged

Tough on Haining as he has taken his chance well and deserved another start. Bradbury needs to rise to the challenge. Fagerson is a versatile back row player so will be able to cober any injuries well and will bring some energy off the bench.

Cummings was not quite so prominent last weekend, so maybe not surprising to see him benched, he has played a lot in this series, perhaps his game time needed managed a little bit. Skinner is a good replacement and I have got no qualms in him starting.

John to start at TH. still no place for Rees-Zammit.