Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Navy

And what super has also missed is that the statues and TV shows are not really the main focus of the protests. They are easy news bites to bring up but the meat of the protesters argument is about equality for black people.

I also don't think super is correct that just because you support BLM you don't also worry about atrocities committed in other spheres of life. It is just that currently the focus is on racism towards black people.

As much as he hates America, Super would really fit into their libertarian ways.

[super_realist]

You are poorly informed Inco.
Did you know that when Saint Greta sailed over to the US they flew the crew  including her father back to Sweden? So, instead of just flying her across, they had six people or however many there were that wouldn't be travelling there contributing to C02. Plus the boat is made from oil products. So more hypocrisy.

Also, her demands would put billions back into poverty. As for traveling by ship. Have you not seen how polluting that is? Much worse than an aircraft.  Why does she need to be anywhere anyway? Why doesn't she just zoom her hysterical speech in, as she's good at ignoring the Internet contribution to greenhouse gases (which incidentally is the same as air travel)

As for net gains, all she seems to be doing is influencing fascist groups like Extinction Rebellion to peddle more of their unscientific lies.

[incontinentia]

For Greta I think its necessary evil, rather than hypocrisy. You simply cant live modern life without polluting to some extent. These celebrities should be allowed use their platforms for good without being labelled hypocrites (except Hamilton, who is taking the piss). We should focus more attention on companies like tax-dodging, sweatshop running apple.

[McLaren]

Super

I can't remember the numbers but I once read a report on sports contribution to CO2 emissions and the crowd numbers are pretty much the main determining factor. The championship or EPL for example will have way higher CO2 contributions than F1 because of the number of people that travel to the games over a season.

f1 is 20 races a season with often not particularly high attendances, the 20 cars going around and some air freight don't come close to the hundreds of games per league in football.

[McLaren]

Inco

The guy in that video suggests being black is an advantage in life because he is a racist. (note the Trump t-shirt)

[McLaren]

super/inco

Inco's point about the greater good should be a pretty simple one to understand. If someone has a decent level of fame I would rather they added to positive campaigns. Things like dealing with climate change need momentum, like successful political campaigns, and popular celebrities can help with that.

Also please note that being a hypocrite is not fallacious. An argument holds regardless of the behavior of the individual putting it forward.

[incontinentia]

Inco

The guy in that video suggests being black is an advantage in life because he is a racist. (note the Trump t-shirt)

No, he specifically says Hamilton got career advantages/money for being black (black privilege if you will). I have no idea what he's alluding to here. Good spot on the t-shirt, hopefully there were no racist motivations behind the video.

[McLaren]

Unfortunately there was a lot of racist motivation behind the video. I won't hold it against for posting it as it seems to have been in error, but you should possibly ask the mods to remove the video. To preserve your credibility if nothing else.

[incontinentia]

Thanks Mac, I havent chuckled that heartily for quite some time.

[beninho]

I'm probably on the side of, why actually care what Lewis Hamilton says about something?

The guy can say what he wants. I guess its up to people to choose whether it brothers them or not. Personally I see no real harm in anything he says on the subject, and im aware the effort his team have put in overall.

It doesn't bother me in any way. I find it hard to have a strong view on someone saying climate change is bad, be they sitting in a car pumping out fumes or on a private jet.

But, i also find it hard to blame him for the way f1 is transported round the world, when there is no other realistic option. As long as they are trying, then I can live with that.

I don't care about what Hamilton says in regards that I'm not influenced by him, but what he has said and how he acts are two completely separate things and he should be called out for being stupid and hypocritical.

It's not just Hamilton though, there's this sort of hypocrisy all over the world, from Prince Harry, Greta Thunberg, Emma Thompson, Benedict Cumberbatch, Jaquin Phoenix etc and it is possible that these idiots will have influence on some feeble minded people.

What harm can be done if people listen to the views from these people on climate change?

[McLaren]

Exactly ben, I don't understand what is wrong with giving climate change action celebrity endorsement. It works for Nike.

[JuliusHMarx]

It influences the feeble minded and could lead to an uprising with pitchforks and torches against the intellectual elite. Anarchy will ensue, all thanks to Lewis Hamilton

[incontinentia]

Maybe super doesnt like being told how to live by celebs in ivory towers? Pretty reasonable stance if you ask me

[JuliusHMarx]

We all live in our own ivory towers and all like to tell others how to live. Celebs are no different except their towers are taller.

[McLaren]

Then the only issues super has with the likes of Greta and Hamilton are incredulity and offense.

[incontinentia]

Then the only issues super has with the likes of Greta and Hamilton are incredulity and offense.

dont forget, Hamilton is black so anyone who has negative opinions about him is probably racist

[navyblueshorts]

Exactly ben, I don't understand what is wrong with giving climate change action celebrity endorsement. It works for Nike.

Not a good justification .

[navyblueshorts]

Then the only issues super has with the likes of Greta and Hamilton are incredulity and offense.

Hamilton's a hypocrite. End of. As for celeb endorsement of anything - **** off. Anyone w/ a brain so soft that they actually think a celebrity endorsement is somehow a reason to trust something, or buy something is, frankly, a little bit simple. That said, if it didn't have some effect, where would advertisement be? I mean, it's not as if some celeb endorsing something was ever paid or given freebies by the makers of what they're endorsing eh? Even worse, think of all those so-called 'influencers' on YouTube etc. Covid might be bad, but it's got nothing on the rise of the internet 'influencer' .

I don't buy any golf gear just because maybe Tiger Woods or any other player endorses it. And I certainly wouldn't pay heed to one second's worth of someone like Woods opining on something he knows diddly about. Yet, somehow, we're supposed to think that Hamilton should be listened to re. the environment. Stop it - my sides are hurting from the laughter.

[JuliusHMarx]

But we all express our opinions on here even though we know sod all about most stuff - and we'd express them to as many people as possible if we had the chance - and then we'd criticise ourselves for doing so (wouldn't we?!)

[beninho]

Has anyone said he should be listened to? But, he is entitled to an opinion, whether someone thinks he is a hypocrite or not. Why is nameless faceless on the Internet fine to spout off, but then hates it when someone famous shares his opinion.

Listen dont listen. Been enraged dont be enraged. Dont let it get to you.

[navyblueshorts]

But we all express our opinions on here even though we know sod all about most stuff - and we'd express them to as many people as possible if we had the chance - and then we'd criticise ourselves for doing so (wouldn't we?!)

Fair point. Hamilton's in no way unique; the lack of any apparent self-awareness is a kicker though. I'm not telling others how to live while living the life of Riley and doing the opposite though. There's no way I'd preach about something (even if I was on Twitter) if I wasn't practicing what I was banging on about. You'll have to take my word for it on that, however.

[dynamark]

H folks .Lewis has got well in front of himself.he knows how much money and influence is needed to get to be an F1 driver and it tends to be available to non black persons although we have Albon and Chandook few years ago plus all manner of nationalities.
Not many white folk win a 100m gold medal,I don't want to join the womens institute and most Pakistani kids play cricket and hockey not football.Its heritage ,culture ,peer influence and physical attribute.

[navyblueshorts]

Has anyone said he should be listened to?  But, he is entitled to an opinion, whether someone thinks he is a hypocrite or not. Why is nameless faceless on the Internet fine to spout off, but then hates it when someone famous shares his opinion.

Listen dont listen. Been enraged dont be enraged. Dont let it get to you.

Yep; people can say (more or less) what they like. Equally, I can and will call them a hypocritical b*stard if I feel like it. Like it or not, he's known and he'll be listened to. All the more reason to point out that he's a fraud on this.
Maybe he'll 'grow as a person' over the next few years? Perhaps he hasn't really thought about the environment until recently? Could be - let's cut him some slack maybe. People do change and we never stop learning, do we? I'll await his Damascene conversion and divestment of his vast wealth to worthy causes, cessation of tax avoidance etc w/ interest.

[JuliusHMarx]

Even when we practice what we preach I'm pretty sure we could all practice it more if we really wanted to.

[incontinentia]

Even when we practice what we preach I'm pretty sure we could all practice it more if we really wanted to.

perhaps the lesson is to not preach

[JuliusHMarx]

Even when we practice what we preach I'm pretty sure we could all practice it more if we really wanted to.

perhaps the lesson is to not preach

Depends on your definition of preach. Stating an opinion in public isn't necessarily preaching, or even trying to tell others how to live, otherwise you could probably accuse everyone on here of preaching.
"Do not listen to celebrities" is preaching, perhaps?

[super_realist]

Has anyone said he should be listened to?  But, he is entitled to an opinion, whether someone thinks he is a hypocrite or not. Why is nameless faceless on the Internet fine to spout off, but then hates it when someone famous shares his opinion.

Listen dont listen. Been enraged dont be enraged. Dont let it get to you.

Next time a politician says something that you don't like and you comment on it I'll remind you of this conversation.
Why is alright for you to thibk a politician is an idiot but you won't admit Hamilton is a grade a tw@t?

[super_realist]

Exactly ben, I don't understand what is wrong with giving climate change action celebrity endorsement. It works for Nike.

Mac, it would be fine if those people were being environmentally friendly, but all those celebs who speak out against it are some of the worse offenders. It's like taking advice on childcare from Fred West.

[super_realist]

I'm probably on the side of, why actually care what Lewis Hamilton says about something?

The guy can say what he wants. I guess its up to people to choose whether it brothers them or not. Personally I see no real harm in anything he says on the subject, and im aware the effort his team have put in overall.

It doesn't bother me in any way. I find it hard to have a strong view on someone saying climate change is bad, be they sitting in a car pumping out fumes or on a private jet.

But, i also find it hard to blame him for the way f1 is transported round the world, when there is no other realistic option. As long as they are trying, then I can live with that.

I don't care about what Hamilton says in regards that I'm not influenced by him, but what he has said and how he acts are two completely separate things and he should be called out for being stupid and hypocritical.

It's not just Hamilton though, there's this sort of hypocrisy all over the world, from Prince Harry, Greta Thunberg, Emma Thompson, Benedict Cumberbatch, Jaquin Phoenix etc and it is possible that these idiots will have influence on some feeble minded people.

What harm can be done if people listen to the views from these people on climate change?

Because if you listen to these idiots then it shows that you can just do what you like in regards to the environment and expect someone else to do these things.
For example if Benedict Cumberbatch can tell me to lower my carbon footprint but then has a Lamborghini Urus and knocks down cyclists then I can just pass on the message, hope that someone else reduces their carbon footprint and continue to drive a gas guzzling car and not care about the environment.

If you want people to behave in a certain way then you have to set an example. People simply do not respond well to being told to "do as I say, not what I do"

Their view is not that they care about the environment, but that everyone ELSE should whilst they don't have to. Can you not see the contradiction and problem with a hypocrite telling you how to behave? People don't do it and they revt against the person spouting such nonsense.

[beninho]

Has anyone said he should be listened to?  But, he is entitled to an opinion, whether someone thinks he is a hypocrite or not. Why is nameless faceless on the Internet fine to spout off, but then hates it when someone famous shares his opinion.

Listen dont listen. Been enraged dont be enraged. Dont let it get to you.

Next time a politician says something that you don't like and you comment on it I'll remind you of this conversation.
Why is alright for you to thibk a politician is an idiot but you won't admit Hamilton is a grade a tw@t?

One is involved in making laws and running the country. The other is a racing car driver. I hold a politician to a higher level of scrutiny.

[beninho]

I'm probably on the side of, why actually care what Lewis Hamilton says about something?

The guy can say what he wants. I guess its up to people to choose whether it brothers them or not. Personally I see no real harm in anything he says on the subject, and im aware the effort his team have put in overall.

It doesn't bother me in any way. I find it hard to have a strong view on someone saying climate change is bad, be they sitting in a car pumping out fumes or on a private jet.

But, i also find it hard to blame him for the way f1 is transported round the world, when there is no other realistic option. As long as they are trying, then I can live with that.

I don't care about what Hamilton says in regards that I'm not influenced by him, but what he has said and how he acts are two completely separate things and he should be called out for being stupid and hypocritical.

It's not just Hamilton though, there's this sort of hypocrisy all over the world, from Prince Harry, Greta Thunberg, Emma Thompson, Benedict Cumberbatch, Jaquin Phoenix etc and it is possible that these idiots will have influence on some feeble minded people.

What harm can be done if people listen to the views from these people on climate change?

Because if you listen to these idiots then it shows that you can just do what you like in regards to the environment and expect someone else to do these things.
For example if Benedict Cumberbatch can tell me to lower my carbon footprint but then has a Lamborghini Urus and knocks down cyclists then I can just pass on the message, hope that someone else reduces their carbon footprint and continue to drive a gas guzzling car and not care about the environment.

If you want people to behave in a certain way then you have to set an example. People simply do not respond well to being told to "do as I say, not what I do"

Their view is not that they care about the environment, but that everyone ELSE should whilst they don't have to. Can you not see the contradiction and problem with a hypocrite telling you how to behave? People don't do it and they revt against the person spouting such nonsense.

The difference is, I dont see it as anyone telling ME how to behave. But, also if some people do take it personally, and change some of their behaviour its not a bad thing. If the worse that happens is that some people ignore them or treat them as hypocrites and the best is changing their own actions, its still not a bad thing.

[Soul Requiem]

Or you have those who actively ignore them because they're idiots at which point it becomes a bad thing.

[beninho]

Or you have those who actively ignore them because they're idiots at which point it becomes a bad thing.

You cant always do things thinkibg about what the stupid people will do though.

[Soul Requiem]

Or you have those who actively ignore them because they're idiots at which point it becomes a bad thing.

You cant always do things thinkibg about what the stupid people will do though.

Why not, you only consider the positive reaction to your actions and not the negatives? Interesting.

[beninho]

Or you have those who actively ignore them because they're idiots at which point it becomes a bad thing.

You cant always do things thinkibg about what the stupid people will do though.

Why not, you only consider the positive reaction to your actions and not the negatives? Interesting.

Do you think Marcus Rashford shouldn't have spoken out on childhood hunger, because some fans of other clubs wouldn't take on board his views because they dislike him or Man Utd?

[Soul Requiem]

Or you have those who actively ignore them because they're idiots at which point it becomes a bad thing.

You cant always do things thinkibg about what the stupid people will do though.

Why not, you only consider the positive reaction to your actions and not the negatives? Interesting.

Do you think Marcus Rashford shouldn't have spoken out on childhood hunger, because some fans of other clubs wouldn't take on board his views because they dislike him or Man Utd?

Do people have preconceived ideas that Rashford is either an idiot or a hypocrite?

[JuliusHMarx]

Rashford earns multiple thousands a week. I don't see him giving it all to food banks and living in a tent, as he bangs on about social inequality and people not having enough to eat. Is he a hypocrite?

[navyblueshorts]

Rashford earns multiple thousands a week. I don't see him giving it all to food banks and living in a tent, as he bangs on about social inequality and people not having enough to eat. Is he a hypocrite?

Here we go again. Why is every argument about absolutes? No wonder debate here and the U.S. etc is FUBAR and we have 'leaders' like Trump and Bolsonaro.

Rashford, fwiw, had direct experience of what he was preaching about as a child. At least, as far as is reported, he did. TBH, I don't know what he does w/ his wealth, but what he hasn't done so far is move to Switzerland and lied about the reasons, registered a private plane in the Isle of Man as a business-only perk and then been caught on InstaTwitBook using it to ferry mates on jollies to the West Indies or wherever and been caught avoiding the VAT etc on it, he doesn't live in Monaco and, as far as I'm aware, preach about things he apparently knows very little about. He may yet disappear up his own ariss, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt to this point.

[McLaren]

Navy

Hamilton, like all of us, is currently experiencing climate change and has been the victim of racism throughout his life. He has direct experience of the the issues he "preaches" on.

[McLaren]

Exactly ben, I don't understand what is wrong with giving climate change action celebrity endorsement. It works for Nike.

Mac, it would be fine if those people were being environmentally friendly, but all those celebs who speak out against it are some of the worse offenders. It's like taking advice on childcare from Fred West.

At least Fred West has carried out some childcare, if I am to understand some of the arguments in this discussion that gives him more legitimacy to talk on the subject than me or you for example, who don't do childcare.


Also do you think a celebrity that endorses a product actually uses it most of the time?

[JuliusHMarx]

Fwiw I applaud what Rashford did and l don't think he is a hypocrite, except in the sense that we all are, because we could all give more, be better people etc. But that then brings up the question of whether celebrities should speak up or not, and whether we should listen to them or not. As usual, we want them to speak up and we want to listen to them when we agree with them.

[incontinentia]

Rashford earns multiple thousands a week. I don't see him giving it all to food banks and living in a tent, as he bangs on about social inequality and people not having enough to eat. Is he a hypocrite?

I dont think this is comparable to Lewis Hamilton. Rashford isnt directly exacerbating the very issues he complains about, therefore he's not a hypocrite.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

Hamilton, like all of us, is currently experiencing climate change and has been the victim of racism throughout his life. He has direct experience of the the issues he "preaches" on.

Whatever. Experience of something doesn't necessarily make one aware of anything that relates to that experience. Hamilton may experience climate change, but that doesn't make him knowledgeable and qualified to preach on it. Trump experiences climate change - what he says about it is equally valid then, eh? Don't be absurd.

I could cut Hamilton some slack re. racism - I obviously can't understand what he may have experienced - but he's in a very privileged sport for which he's been a chosen one since he was very young. He's been groomed for it even though he's black; strange prejudice. Even though he's black/coloured/whatever, he still manages to preach to others like an A-hole (see comments to other F1 drivers), but I guess I should take into account some allowances there if he's speaking from pure emotions, rather than from a considered position.

Look, nothing you or anyone else says will change my opinion of him from the fact that, at the moment, I think he's an entitled, arrogant, hypocritical PoS. There's time for him to actually grow up, but I'll judge him by his actions, and to a lesser extent, his words; not because I drool over him as an F1 driver and take any negative comment on Hamilton as a personal affront.

[McLaren]

Navy

I don't think you did need direct experience of something to comment on it, but that is the idea being put forward in this thread. I was merely pointing out that if the standard for commenting on a subject was personal experience then Hamilton passes the test.

[navyblueshorts]

Fwiw I applaud what Rashford did and l don't think he is a hypocrite, except in the sense that we all are, because we could all give more, be better people etc. But that then brings up the question of whether celebrities should speak up or not, and whether we should listen to them or not. As usual, we want them to speak up and we want to listen to them when we agree with them.

Celebrities speaking up on issues is fine, and can be valuable. However, a total lack of any sense of self-awareness re. one's own possible hypocrisy is annoying and, as S_R pointed out, is likely to switch people off to even sensible things such celebrities might say. Hamilton can't even be honest about what he's done re. taxes etc in the past. I'd have far more respect (but still wouldn't listen much when he talks about the environment) for him if he'd said "Yeah, I moved to Switzerland because I get to pay less tax". At least that would have been honest and what he did wasn't illegal.

Still, is it surprising this is an issue re. people like Hamilton etc? Being a self-centred so-and-so is probably part of what has made them successful in the first place; especially in F1. Good luck to the guy - but I'm not interested in anything he says.

[incontinentia]

Hi navy. Not trying to be a knob or anything but I believe the term "c*loured" is no longer considered acceptable. If I remember right a football commentator got in trouble for using it a few years ago. Maybe it should be added to the site's swear filter?

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I don't think you did need direct experience of something to comment on it, but that is the idea being put forward in this thread. I was merely pointing out that if the standard for commenting on a subject was personal experience then Hamilton passes the test.

Don't be daft. You and I can comment on what we like; whether we've experienced 'it' or not. However, we should expect to be called out if we sound stupid as a result of not actually knowing anything about 'it'. 'Experience' (as in "Wow! There's a lot more bush fires in California just recently.") doesn't mean anyone experiencing that is qualified to explain why. Sure, I'd listen to them re. their 'experience' in terms of what it's like to fear for one's life in those circumstances, but other than that? Not so likely.

Hamilton's cause re. environment is, as we've been discussing, somewhat hampered by the fact he drives in F1 (and has become as rich as Croesus as a result), has a private jet, flies everywhere and shows no sign of even thinking that might be seen as a little hypocritical. I'm pretty rational - I can see that I should take what he might say for what it's actually worth, and not let my feelings re. his hypocrisy get in the way. Maybe I will/do. I'll still think he's a t**t though.

I'm done w/ this. Let me know when Hamilton quits F1, pays tax properly in the UK etc.

[navyblueshorts]

Hi navy. Not trying to be a knob or anything but I believe the term "c*loured" is no longer considered acceptable. If I remember right a football commentator got in trouble for using it a few years ago. Maybe it should be added to the site's swear filter?

No offence taken. TBH, I'm done w/ all of that. I'll call people what I feel like, w/o trying to be deliberately offensive and defend my corner if I get flak.

Adding 'coloured' to any swear filter is going to be difficult; filter, as far as I know, takes no account of context.

[McLaren]

Navy

Person of colour is fine, coloured isn't.

[beninho]

My point is raising Rashford, waa against the poibt made about considering what they say in case people deliberately ignore them because they don't like that person.

Just because you don't like the person saying something or think they are an idiot, doesn't mean what is said isnt true or justifiable.

If Lewis Hamilton says, he has sold cars and replaced them with electric cars, he doesn't look to use plastic, he travels less on planes he eats less or no meat. And someone thinks I'm going to buy more gas guzzling cars, use more plastic, fly more and eat more meat because I hate Hamilton, then that person is weird.

If your point is still, well Hamilton is an idiot and he drives an f1 car so everything else he does makes him a hypocrite then fine, but it doesn't mean that he hasn't got a point.

[Soul Requiem]

My point is raising Rashford, waa against the poibt made about considering what they say in case people deliberately ignore them because they don't like that person.

Just because you don't like the person saying something or think they are an idiot, doesn't mean what is said isnt true or justifiable.  

If Lewis Hamilton says,  he has sold cars and replaced them with electric cars, he doesn't look to use plastic, he travels less on planes  he eats less or no meat.  And someone thinks I'm going to buy more gas guzzling cars, use more plastic, fly more and eat more meat because I hate Hamilton, then that person is weird.

If your point is still, well Hamilton is an idiot and he drives an f1 car so everything else he does makes him a hypocrite then fine, but it doesn't mean that he hasn't got a point.

It most certainly does.

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