2020/21 Premier League Thread: VAR Check Complete - No Cough

[Dolphin Ziggler]

First topic message reminder :

We have our 20 as Fulham take the playoff spot and we welcome back West Brom, Fulham and, most importantly to the nation (apparently) Leeds.

[GSC]

Pretty sure arsenal fans did similar, I remember a video of a guy falling off a bus stop.

In particular United and Arsenal fans have more to gripe with their absentee owners than the other 4 clubs

[GSC]

I don't condone violence but how else do you want United fans to get their points across. Pretty clear the Glazers care as much about fan unrest as they do football in general. All they care about is sucking funds from United, until they hurt financially, they'll just ignore it

[hampo17]

I don't condone violence but how else do you want United fans to get their points across. Pretty clear the Glazers care as much about fan unrest as they do football in general. All they care about is sucking funds from United, until they hurt financially, they'll just ignore it

You've literally just condoned their actions though, and this is the issue isn't it. We keep hearing, "I don't condone violence" and the next sentence is always "how else do they do it" maybe not slashing tyres on buses?

If they really want to hurt the Glazers, protests won't do it. How about stop buying the kits? I mean the amount of complete morons holding signs saying "boycot the sponsors", stood their in all the united gear was amazing. You just know they'll be first in line to splash £80 on next seasons shirt as well.

[GSC]

Ok so fans in Manchester don't buy shirts, do you think that would make a sizable dip worldwide?

Condoning or not, the fans have come last in the priorities of every body. And they've had enough. The PL or FA don't care to ensure owners are buying clubs for sporting reasons, rather than buying the club with money loaned that subsequently is repaid by the club while the Glazers pay themselves money to sit in America and contribute nothing

[hampo17]

So you think smashing up doors and slashing the tyres of the opposition bus is going to make the Glazers take notice?

[GSC]

It's definitely got more of a reaction

First PL game ever cancelled due to fan protests

[hampo17]

That doesn’t hurt the Glazers though does it? They didn’t lose any money, the probably just laughed, let’s look at this in a slightly more cynical light, why did the bus not get stopped for Leicester?

Surely if you’re really wanting to make a statement you do this at every home game, you don’t pick and choose.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I see that Man United (and Liverpool were also involved in those protests) fans are allowed to protest, both within the spirit of the game and the rules of the game.

Weird though, seems to be a different message whenever anyone else does.

Punishment? Wouldn't be fair on the fans, I've heard.

[hampo17]

Punishment? Wouldn't be fair on the fans, I've heard.

Come on man, you're one of the more intelligent posters on here. You can tell the difference between punishing the fans for something they had nothing to do with, and punishing the fans for literally forcing a game to be postponed and then slashing tyres of a team bus.

The same as when Liverpool fans smashed up the City bus, action should of been taken.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Action should have been taken, but there's a stark difference between violence and protest.

The club should be punished for it, both teams, because their fans forced a fixture to be moved. In a way that benefitted both teams, really.

There is no different punishment. Clubs are responsible, fans get punished regardless. The only worthy sanctions punish the club and its stakeholders.

[westisbest]

Did well for the first 20 mins. Woeful second half. Not surprised we lost that. Lack of fight in this team.

Need big changes in the summer. Almost a whole new midfield. It’s shocking as it is.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That WBA goal being chalked off is an absolute shambles

[westisbest]

There has been so many poor disallowed goals this season. Didn’t see the baggies one.

At first glance I thought the Chelsea goal should have stood yesterday.

I just hope next season is better in that respect.
The game is pretty poor at the moment for me.

[hampo17]

That WBA goal being chalked off is an absolute shambles

From side on it looks bad, from behind the goal you can see he's obstructing Allisons view which then means he's interacting with play.

[Duty281]

Football's in the doldrums, presently. Far too much of it being played, players fatigued, and quality stagnant as a result.

Yesterday's WBA-Liverpool game was another farce. Mike Dean restarting play with a FK (?!) in the lead-up to Liverpool's first goal, when it should have been a drop ball, and WBA's second goal should never have been disallowed, because at no point was Allison ever obstructed in playing the ball.

VAR, and some recent rule changes, has been a horrific addition to the game. There's obviously the supporter aspect to it - what's the point of celebrating a goal? It might be chalked off, in thirty seconds or so, because someone's knee might be 0.04mm offside when some totally unscientific lines are drawn on a screen based on unscientific timing. And there's obviously the inconsistent application which leaves us all confused.

But by far the worst aspect is it has left on-the-field referees second guessing themselves and making basic errors in law, as demonstrated yesterday and numerous other times this season. Major, glaring errors in law five-ten years ago were a rarity at the top level. Now we've got officials who are unsure of themselves. All because of VAR. It's a farce. Get rid.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

But by far the worst aspect is it has left on-the-field referees second guessing themselves and making basic errors in law, as demonstrated yesterday and numerous other times this season. Major, glaring errors in law five-ten years ago were a rarity at the top level. Now we've got officials who are unsure of themselves. All because of VAR. It's a farce. Get rid.

Completely disagree on this. All VAR has really done is expose poor officiating, outdated laws and arrogance of the administration in this country.

These errors were being made regularly, and you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise. They were highlighted too, national news was basically all referees once the games had been played. Now it's just VAR, all it's done is shifted the conversation.

I'm not a great fan of how we're using VAR, and I think they could have made so much more effort to make it work rather than arrogantly chucking it out there, but the problems of most complaint are not caused by VAR itself. It's implementation, including laws that were basically wrong but no one noticed.

[GSC]

The main issue I have with var is basically why umpires call exists in cricket. When the technology is used for clear and obvious errors it's fine, but right now it's being used to validate every major event on the pitch.

When you're drawing lines across the pitch to check if someone's knee is offside to rule out a late equaliser in a cup final, maybe it's gone too far

[Dolphin Ziggler]

100%, I'd take referee's call into account like cricket. Football fans aren't as reasonable, but they'd get it. Margin of error would certainly be smaller than just linos.

Go with the official's call if it's a certain margin etc.

[Duty281]

But by far the worst aspect is it has left on-the-field referees second guessing themselves and making basic errors in law, as demonstrated yesterday and numerous other times this season. Major, glaring errors in law five-ten years ago were a rarity at the top level. Now we've got officials who are unsure of themselves. All because of VAR. It's a farce. Get rid.

Completely disagree on this. All VAR has really done is expose poor officiating, outdated laws and arrogance of the administration in this country.

These errors were being made regularly, and you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise. They were highlighted too, national news was basically all referees once the games had been played. Now it's just VAR, all it's done is shifted the conversation.

I'm not a great fan of how we're using VAR, and I think they could have made so much more effort to make it work rather than arrogantly chucking it out there, but the problems of most complaint are not caused by VAR itself. It's implementation, including laws that were basically wrong but no one noticed.

I wasn't referring to errors such as subjective calls on fouls, or even ones where a linesman has missed a clear offside, but simple errors in application of law, such as Mike Dean yesterday giving Liverpool a FK when it should have been a drop ball, or Jon Moss completely forgetting how to administer a FK correctly.

VAR is serving to undermine the on-the-pitch referee as the central and leading authority, officials are changing good habits to ingratiate VAR, and the decline in the standard of officiating recently has stemmed from VAR.

I agree that criticism of referees was the norm pre-VAR, now the conversation has just moved to include VAR as well. I'm curious as to which laws you think are outdated or basically wrong? The main problem in the theory of law recently, for me, has been the change to the handball law, which is now punishing accidental and non-dangerous action.

I still think the standard of officiating in this country is excellent, though (as with goalkeepers) one poor decision can undermine one hundred good decisions, but there are a few problems coming through, directly related to VAR.

I also don't think we need a version of 'umpire's call', as in cricket, for offside decisions. Cricket is trying to find a way to get rid of umpire's call.

[Guest]

Unsurprisingly, Harry Kane asks to leave Tottenham this summer

[Duty281]

Yep, time's running out for him if he wants to win trophies. Can imagine him going to City or Chelsea quite easily.

[GSC]

I don't think we necessarily need "umpires call" as much as only reserving VAR for when it's clear a mistake has been made. Otherwise we may as well just stop the game after every passage of play.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I just think you’ve got to be realistic. They haven’t shown any inclination to get rid of VAR, so why pretend it’s gonna happen? They’re not going to suddenly decide offsides are not a VAR issue, so find the biggest problem - those ridiculous offside calls - and make it more palatable.

In terms of outdated or misused laws, the offside rule is being exposed for being too linear, and that includes from attacking ones ruling out goals to baffling inconsistencies in what is an penalty, they’ve consistently shown handball is out of their understanding, things like encroachment etc.

Any inconsistency is down to poor officiating. The refs in this country are a joke, common errors go unpunished, there is no responsibility and a lot of arrogance, and there are still just things big teams get. There are still fouls that aren’t fouls on strikers but are on defenders.

The standard hasn’t improved and they’ve become worse with VAR. I don’t give them leeway on that, these are professionals and grown adults, have some agency.

[GSC]

I don't want VAR to be junked. Just think the way it's used is all wrong, and they're basically making a rod for their own back by using to validate every decision in a major passage of play

[Guest]

Roy Hogdson has stepped down. Lampard favourite

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I don't want VAR to be junked. Just think the way it's used is all wrong, and they're basically making a rod for their own back by using to validate every decision in a major passage of play

Dont disagree, theyve used it worse than anyone else and seem to have no idea what to change

[GSC]

I'd be broadly in favour of a 30 second limit on reviews or similar. If you can't irrefutably overturn a decision in that time it's not clear and obvious that a mistake was made

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Agree on that too, maybe 45 but the concept is right. I'd also like former pros and former refs involved too. That Soucek or the Balbuena red cards recently, a player would have just confirmed there was absolutely no intent.

A lot of people want to stay in the game, a bit of training and it's very easy.

[Duty281]

I just think you’ve got to be realistic. They haven’t shown any inclination to get rid of VAR, so why pretend it’s gonna happen? They’re not going to suddenly decide offsides are not a VAR issue, so find the biggest problem - those ridiculous offside calls - and make it more palatable.

In terms of outdated or misused laws, the offside rule is being exposed for being too linear, and that includes from attacking ones ruling out goals to baffling inconsistencies in what is an penalty, they’ve consistently shown handball is out of their understanding, things like encroachment etc.

Any inconsistency is down to poor officiating. The refs in this country are a joke, common errors go unpunished, there is no responsibility and a lot of arrogance, and there are still just things big teams get. There are still fouls that aren’t fouls on strikers but are on defenders.

The standard hasn’t improved and they’ve become worse with VAR. I don’t give them leeway on that, these are professionals and grown adults, have some agency.

I haven't pretended it's going to happen, but I can still voice my displeasure about it. The problem with trying to make offside calls more palatable are that: if they move to a 'referee's call' system, it will increase inconsistency and change the focus point of error - instead of quibbling about someone being offside or not, we'd be quibbling about whether or not they're the required margin to change the on-field decision. And you'd still have the problem, at least for now, that the method for judging offside is imprecise and unscientific.

I agree about the handball law. It's moved out of most people's understanding simply because it's changed so much. I think the offside law is fine, no one had much of a problem with it (bar the slight discussion about active v inactive) until VAR happened.

The standard of refereeing in this country is fantastic, better than the other top European leagues. But referees are like goalkeepers, they do 98% of their job right, but they'll mainly be remembered for the 2% they got wrong. There is plenty of responsibility for referees, credit to the FA they run a fantastic ship in terms of promotion/relegation of officials as well as the professional nature of it for top-level referees. There are not things that 'just big teams get', that's a common myth; but I do share your frustration about how the slightest touch on a defender results in a FK, but a far higher standard has been reached for a striker to get a FK. This is, at least, in part due to not wanting to give penalties for practically nothing.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Agree on that too, myaybe 45 but the concept is right. I'd also like former pros and former refs involved too. That Soucek or the Balbuena red cards recently, a player would have just confirmed there was absolutely no intent.

A lot of people want to stay in the game, a bit of training and it's very easy.

It's something I think cricket hasn't done either, but VAR specific refs would be good (in the same way I think DRS specific umpires would be good too).
Get a bunch of guys trained in how to use the technology to the best of it's ability, who know the laws and it's their job to be VAR officials.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I haven't pretended it's going to happen, but I can still voice my displeasure about it. The problem with trying to make offside calls more palatable are that: if they move to a 'referee's call' system, it will increase inconsistency and change the focus point of error - instead of quibbling about someone being offside or not, we'd be quibbling about whether or not they're the required margin to change the on-field decision. And you'd still have the problem, at least for now, that the method for judging offside is imprecise and unscientific.

Stop being so paranoid, it wasn't you specifically! Regardless, that's a better system. People are complaining about these margins and the veracity of these calls. That takes it away, makes it palatable, makes it seem more fair and also doesn't go against the initial spirit of the offside law. It isn't about desperately needing to punish, after all, it was about stopping an unfair advantage and helping the game play better.

I agree about the handball law. It's moved out of most people's understanding simply because it's changed so much. I think the offside law is fine, no one had much of a problem with it (bar the slight discussion about active v inactive) until VAR happened.

Because the rule wasn't exposed. This way you get better decisions and more clarity. The law before was the same, but we just got worse calls and some shockers!

The standard of refereeing in this country is fantastic, better than the other top European leagues. But referees are like goalkeepers, they do 98% of their job right, but they'll mainly be remembered for the 2% they got wrong. There is plenty of responsibility for referees, credit to the FA they run a fantastic ship in terms of promotion/relegation of officials as well as the professional nature of it for top-level referees. There are not things that 'just big teams get', that's a common myth; but I do share your frustration about how the slightest touch on a defender results in a FK, but a far higher standard has been reached for a striker to get a FK. This is, at least, in part due to not wanting to give penalties for practically nothing.

That's really not true to my experience of watching Premier League football. Disagree on the clubs thing, think it's psychological and down to how weak our referees are mentally. I don't agree they relegate/promote well, I don't believe they maintain high standards and I don't believe they have done enough to train these referees on VAR and given them confidence in their own standing.

The FA has functioned poorly on officiating, easily losing their top officials to other countries to do work like Webb and Clattenburg (whether or not I like them, they were the FAs top dogs and both went for work they could have easily done here to improve standards). The FA and the PFA together could easily be training ex-pros and clearly don't do near enough. That is hard to label at the FA though, the PFA has been such a mess for so long.

[Lowlandbrit]

Offside should absolutely have been done as 'ref's call' with either the linesman or ref checking on the monitor that they're ok with the call on the field. The lines are a complete farce, with far too many decisions that just don't feel right.

In other news, Palace need a new manager. Too harsh to put them down as early relegation candidates next season?

[Guest]

In other news, Palace need a new manager. Too harsh to put them down as early relegation candidates next season?

Not really. If Lampard goes in there, that could burst their PL bubble. It’s a pretty poor squad, and about 75% of them are out of contract this summer. They somehow manage to keep their heads above water each year. Not really an attractive job, in my opinion, hence why Lampard is a leading candidate.

Feel it’s time they cut Zaha loose this year, and try and allow the new manager to rebuild.

[Duty281]

I haven't pretended it's going to happen, but I can still voice my displeasure about it. The problem with trying to make offside calls more palatable are that: if they move to a 'referee's call' system, it will increase inconsistency and change the focus point of error - instead of quibbling about someone being offside or not, we'd be quibbling about whether or not they're the required margin to change the on-field decision. And you'd still have the problem, at least for now, that the method for judging offside is imprecise and unscientific.

Stop being so paranoid, it wasn't you specifically! Regardless, that's a better system. People are complaining about these margins and the veracity of these calls. That takes it away, makes it palatable, makes it seem more fair and also doesn't go against the initial spirit of the offside law. It isn't about desperately needing to punish, after all, it was about stopping an unfair advantage and helping the game play better.

I agree about the handball law. It's moved out of most people's understanding simply because it's changed so much. I think the offside law is fine, no one had much of a problem with it (bar the slight discussion about active v inactive) until VAR happened.

Because the rule wasn't exposed. This way you get better decisions and more clarity. The law before was the same, but we just got worse calls and some shockers!

The standard of refereeing in this country is fantastic, better than the other top European leagues. But referees are like goalkeepers, they do 98% of their job right, but they'll mainly be remembered for the 2% they got wrong. There is plenty of responsibility for referees, credit to the FA they run a fantastic ship in terms of promotion/relegation of officials as well as the professional nature of it for top-level referees. There are not things that 'just big teams get', that's a common myth; but I do share your frustration about how the slightest touch on a defender results in a FK, but a far higher standard has been reached for a striker to get a FK. This is, at least, in part due to not wanting to give penalties for practically nothing.

That's really not true to my experience of watching Premier League football. Disagree on the clubs thing, think it's psychological and down to how weak our referees are mentally. I don't agree they relegate/promote well, I don't believe they maintain high standards and I don't believe they have done enough to train these referees on VAR and given them confidence in their own standing.

The FA has functioned poorly on officiating, easily losing their top officials to other countries to do work like Webb and Clattenburg (whether or not I like them, they were the FAs top dogs and both went for work they could have easily done here to improve standards). The FA and the PFA together could easily be training ex-pros and clearly don't do near enough. That is hard to label at the FA though, the PFA has been such a mess for so long.

1) Yes, but it just changes what we're arguing about. Now we're arguing about Chilwell's knee being a tiny fraction offside. In the near-future, under this idea, we'll be arguing about someone being 1.9cm offside which isn't quite enough to satisfy the new criteria of it being 2cm offside to overturn an on-the-field call (for example). Same argument, different parameter. When we have technology that can expertly prove offsides with virtually no doubt, like with goal-line tech or hawk-eye in tennis, fine get it in. For now, keep it out.

2) But the law hasn't been exposed. The law for offside is still fine. The problem is decisions about offside are being made on dubious video evidence.

3) Top-tier referees are tremendously strong, mentally. They govern a game with 22 adults trying to cheat them, millions watching them, abuse raining down on all sides, and they still get the vast majority of decisions correct. They show tremendous strength and fortitude. I also believe the standards of refereeing have improved immeasurably over the past two decades, especially with regards to fitness, and I also think the FA do a superb job in promoting promising referees into the Football League. VAR training, though, yes that has been poor and rushed.

Howard Webb did do some work here, off-the-field after a stellar career. Clattenburg left for what I believe was a King's ransom, and the FA couldn't keep him. Mind you, Clattenburg and the FA's relationship was always struggling after the Chelsea incident. I'm unsure as to whether ex-pros would make good referees. It's an entirely different skill-set and there would always be unfounded accusations of bias levelled against them.

[Duty281]

The return of fans also means the return of fans leaving early - some United fans leaving with five minutes left with the game at 1-1.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

West Ham are guaranteed to finish above Arsenal. I have never seen that happen in my life.

[Duty281]

I forgot about the Europa Conference League. West Ham need a point on the final day to avoid it. Everton and Arsenal must make sure they don't win. Then Tottenham will get landed in it.

[Guest]

Manchester City's Ruben Dias has been crowned Football Writers' Association Footballer of the Year for the 2020/21 season

As for the top 4, looks like Leicester have blown it. Liverpool will feel they’ve got out of jail this season. Were never going to get a better chance to break into that top 4, so many will feel very disappointed, especially given Liverpool’s atrocious mid season form, and the fact Chelsea’s top league goalscorer is, Jorginho.

[GSC]

City are worthy champions, but even they've been pretty spotty this season and the standard below that hasn't been high.

United are a comfortable 2nd this year, but they'd have been a distant 3rd a year ago, needing to secure a top 4 spot 2 years ago and out of the top 4 3 years ago.

A lot of mediocrity this season with the bottom 3 cut adrift

[Duty281]

Yep, it's been a terrible season for me. City winning the league with the lowest point haul of their three recent PL-winning campaigns. Chelsea and Liverpool and Tottenham well below their best. A pretty shabby United side (Fernandes apart, he's amazing) have profited from that. Everton, too, haven't reached their potential.

The clubs in 15-20th should all be in the Championship. Can't say I think much of the sides coming up either. Norwich are the ultimate elevator club and will soon be going down again.

And yet, in spite of all this rubbish, the PL is still the strongest league in the world. La Liga's on the verge of collapse if Real and Barca go down the swanee. The French League is atrocious (even though PSG probably aren't going to win it this year, which is hilarious). Serie A isn't going to return to the 90s any time soon. And even the German league, which can be fun to watch, is a one-horse race with Bayern pulling further away from their competition.

At least the Euros are coming up. Wide-open competition. Seven or eight teams have a realistic chance of glory. Loads of fun.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

It's going to end up a terrible season, but I think it's been a good one. The finish, after their struggles and their attempts to breakaway, is annoying. I think we all wanted at least one, maybe two to miss out. 

That said, I think the standard is just spread better this year. You have a lot of alright teams who have the odd player capable of besting anyone. The "standard" is always judged by the top four, but I think they have suffered as the "lesser" clubs have been better. 

As for the relegated sides, Sheffield United blew up, West Brom are run poorly and Fulham were weird. Fulham, to me, have brilliantly coached but just a little short in a league where the average sides were strong. In another year, I could see them staying up. Especially if they'd got the right striker.

[Atila]

While I would agree that overall this hasn't been a great season, I did think that the 100, 99 and 98 point seasons was not something that was going to happen every year anyway. I thought a drop off would come eventually, and this season it did.

As a United fan, I think we're making progress. Considering that I read on here that United would finish 6th or 7th, they haven't done too badly. Winning the Europa League would make it a B+ season for them in my book.

I never thought that Allardyce had a real chance of keeping WBA up. Sure it was mathematically possible but it was seriously unlikely to happen. Glad that Newcastle stayed up.

To me, Leicester have also had a good season even if they miss out on the top four. History and bragging rights are achieved by actually winning things. Leicester managed to win one of the five trophies available to an English club.

[Guest]

Nuno Espírito Santo has left Wolves. Could be Spurs bound?

[Duty281]

Looks that way. There was a surge of betting on Santo to become the next Tottenham manager just before the story broke. Big loss for Wolves.

[Guest]

Liverpool & Chelsea top 4. Leicester couldn’t beat Spurs.

Steve Bruce got the Toon to 12th

[Duty281]

Tottenham fans probably furious that their team won and put Chelsea in the Champions League. And while they do finish above Arsenal as a result, they also have to contend with being in the third-rate Europa Conference League, probably ending up in places like Liechtenstein and Gibraltar.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

TARTAN DIEGO SIMEONE'S MASSIVE BARSTARRDS ARE GOING ON A EUROPEAN TOUR

[Duty281]

Obviously a great achievement for West Ham to get European football when most were predicting them to be in or around the relegation spots, but they were only three points from top four. May never get a better chance?

[Duty281]

https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/does-the-table-tell-the-whole-story/191957

Nice quirk of Xg - Brighton should have finished 5th according to it. Maybe a sign that Potter deserves to ply his trade at somewhere a bit higher up?

[GSC]

Potter would be a sensible hire for Spurs.

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