England: 8 Nations

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Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

Good highlights of him running KC...could do with more of the other aspects of a Fly half.

Ford (whos been the main 10) imo doesnt run it half as much and passes / kicks controls games. Maybe Jones feels that Smith runs it TOO much for international level.
Just a thought. i could be wide of the mark...

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:From the Times

Against all his natural instincts, Jones, the head coach, says that he has identified the need for England to move away from fielding a playmaker at inside centre. With Tuilagi out injured, Ollie Lawrence, the rising star at Worcester Warriors, is now firmly in the frame to be handed the No 12 jersey and make his Test debut on Saturday.

Looks like Olly could be in at 12 maybe Slade 13.

i thought Ollie was a 13? And Slades skill set are far better for 12 than 13.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:From the Times

Against all his natural instincts, Jones, the head coach, says that he has identified the need for England to move away from fielding a playmaker at inside centre. With Tuilagi out injured, Ollie Lawrence, the rising star at Worcester Warriors, is now firmly in the frame to be handed the No 12 jersey and make his Test debut on Saturday.

Looks like Olly could be in at 12 maybe Slade 13.

i thought Ollie was a 13? And Slades skill set are far better for 12 than 13.

Manu 12/ Slade 13 was interesting and had a lot of potential, especially as they were happy switching around, and playing alongside each other. I guess a lot will depend on the chemistry between Lawrence and Slade.

Whatever the combinations used Slade seems to become ever more important.

Maybe that importance propels him a bit. I'm with geordie insofar as Slade hasn't really had a definitive performance for England. Hes been good but hes never made himself indispensable.

Frustrating seems to be the best word to describe Slade in an England shirt so far, has shown flashes of his class with ball in hand but not to his full potential. I tend to notice his defensive work more than anything.

Marchant also retained in the squad, and Lawrence / Marchant would be closer to the Manu / JJ combo of yore. It'll be interesting to see what gets tried...

Either way the centre combos look good on paper and certainly no donkey in there. The lad from Worcester looks good and I'd be happy with marchant slade in the team too. Going back to the lads analyse on 10's very good summary and again I'd be happy for any of Smith umaga or Malins to have a crack. I think we really are blessed with some exciting talent at the moment. Here's one for deliberation though who's going to be our long term 15?

James Haskell saying something very similar, albeit even more strongly worded, than I said earlier in the week: the whole 'bubble' idea is complete nonsense and the overreaction is genuinely disgraceful.

I'm constantly amazed at the British public's ability to lap up jargon and fill in the gaps of ignorance with supposition and ignorance. There was no 'bubble'. Of course there wasn't. The players weren't isolated long enough for the incubation period to even pass. Not only that but they'd travelled from all over the world, Fiji etc., through airports and all the rest. They were also allowed to visit their homes (!!!) and families during this 'bubble' and allowed out in to a local cafe.

It is a complete farce and the reaction demonstrates some fundamentally broken at the heart of both British values and civic respect, as well as a rabid media that is foaming at the mouth to create news during a period where there is very little day to day news.

What a joke. Some of the overreaction on here applies as well. The sooner people realise that the half hearted lockdown measures are doing f all to stop the virus - and subsequently that any minor 'breach' is therefore no more dangerous than the actual conditions of the fabled 'bubble' itself - the better.

Yoda wrote:Either way the centre combos look good on paper and certainly no donkey in there. The lad from Worcester looks good and I'd be happy with marchant slade in the team too. Going back to the lads analyse on 10's very good summary and again I'd be happy for any of Smith umaga or Malins to have a crack. I think we really are blessed with some exciting talent at the moment. Here's one for deliberation though who's going to be our long term 15?

I'm fully with geordie after a very short time of watching him: Hodge. His kicking needs improvement ie he needs to learn when to do it and what the overall aims and needs for the team are when doing it. Hes very inexperienced and I expect that to come quickly. Again fully agree his running style looks like Balshaw and hes very exciting. If he improves hes knocking on the door in 18 months and will be there for a long time.

Yoda wrote:Either way the centre combos look good on paper and certainly no donkey in there. The lad from Worcester looks good and I'd be happy with marchant slade in the team too. Going back to the lads analyse on 10's very good summary and again I'd be happy for any of Smith umaga or Malins to have a crack. I think we really are blessed with some exciting talent at the moment. Here's one for deliberation though who's going to be our long term 15?

I can’t see any young 10s being given a chance against Italy though.
If Olly is 12 Farrell will be FH for the whole game.
As for future 15 yes Hodge looks a bit special.

Funnily enough, the lad we have signed as a replacement for Josh Hodge is equally as talented...and could very well be the next long term Welsh Fb. Watch this space.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Funnily enough, the lad we have signed as a replacement for Josh Hodge is equally as talented...and could very well be the next long term Welsh Fb. Watch this space.

I'd be surprised with that GF, Hodge looks a bit special.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Funnily enough, the lad we have signed as a replacement for Josh Hodge is equally as talented...and could very well be the next long term Welsh Fb. Watch this space.

I'd be surprised with that GF, Hodge looks a bit special.

Hodge looks the business, no doubt there..he "should" be the England FB for years to come.

However Kevin Sinfield admitted Leeds Rhinos were gutted to lose 18 year old Stephens...its because of Super League academy restructuring. He's another genuine talent, pace, step, hes a kicker etc...but due to his dad being Colin Stephens the former Wales Fly half...he'll likely choose them....thats of course if he does make the grade.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:From the Times

Against all his natural instincts, Jones, the head coach, says that he has identified the need for England to move away from fielding a playmaker at inside centre. With Tuilagi out injured, Ollie Lawrence, the rising star at Worcester Warriors, is now firmly in the frame to be handed the No 12 jersey and make his Test debut on Saturday.

Looks like Olly could be in at 12 maybe Slade 13.

i thought Ollie was a 13? And Slades skill set are far better for 12 than 13.

Lawrence has played most his senior rugby at 13 but I could see Jones picking him at 12 performing a similar role to Manu at inside centre.

The usual worry with a young 13 playing 12 would be defensive organisation. In the England system Farrell leads the line on the inside and the 13 usual leads the defence on the outside anyway. When Jones first came in that defender in the 13 channel was Joseph - an exceptional defensive 13. In the RWC when Ford was on the bench Slade was playing 13 and performing that role.

In short whoever wears the 13 shirt usually has a tougher role defensively in England's system than the inside centre does. So 10.Faz 12.Lawrence 13.Slade could be a good way to work Lawrence's attacking potential into the side without massive pressure on his defensive work.

I usually ere on the side of not caring what shirt number players wear as well as the side is balanced anyway, whether that's in the back row, centres or back three.

SO it does look like Lawrence is going to start v Italy?

GeordieFalcon wrote:SO it does look like Lawrence is going to start v Italy?

Ford being injured and Francis not picked means the midfield options are pretty much starting Umaga at 10 with Faz at 12 or picking Slade/Lawrence at 12 with any of the other centres at 13. Marchant and JJ are less likely to play 12 than Slade or Lawrence I'd guess.

I don't think Umaga will start so my guess would be Lawrence at 12 with either Slade or JJ outside him for some experience.

9.Youngs 10.Farrell 11.May 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Watson 15.Furbank
21.Robson 22.Umaga 23.Joseph

That would be my prediction with Marchant possibly nipping the bench spot from Joseph.

I'd prefer to see either Thorley or Marchant on the right wing with Watson at 15. Marchant was very good on the wing for the Blues in Super Rugby.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Funnily enough, the lad we have signed as a replacement for Josh Hodge is equally as talented...and could very well be the next long term Welsh Fb. Watch this space.

I'd be surprised with that GF, Hodge looks a bit special.

Watch out for Freddie Steward. One of the few positives to take from Tigers since the restart.

I've seen few players look as comfortable under the high ball as he does at 19 - being 6'5", around 16 stone helps there to be fair. He's also got a Daly sized kicking game on him and decent distribution skills. One to watch.

Yes, ive noticed Steward...certainly one to watch aswell.

Not seen much domestic rugby this year, but the Steward / Hodge debate sounds like it could be one that people argue over for a while! The more solid, Mike Brown esque full back vs the Iain Balshaw 2001 type fireworks .. I have to say I'm a fan of a Balshaw type but depending on the make up of the rest of the back line its a good problem to have

Looking forward to watching us this weekend, was disappointed to see the Barbarians game cancelled over the weekend but couldn't be helped

Not sure if its already been posted, but the below link shows the teams for the intra squad training game that they played instead, some interesting positional selections here. A couple of video highlights further down the thread, I'm not familiar enough with the newbies to know who is who but some new faces making things happen!

https://twitter.com/bencoles_/status/1321391370406400002?s=20

BamBam wrote:Not seen much domestic rugby this year, but the Steward / Hodge debate sounds like it could be one that people argue over for a while! The more solid, Mike Brown esque full back vs the Iain Balshaw 2001 type fireworks .. I have to say I'm a fan of a Balshaw type but depending on the make up of the rest of the back line its a good problem to have

Looking forward to watching us this weekend, was disappointed to see the Barbarians game cancelled over the weekend but couldn't be helped

Not sure if its already been posted, but the below link shows the teams for the intra squad training game that they played instead, some interesting positional selections here

https://twitter.com/bencoles_/status/1321391370406400002?s=20

I would agree...however Hodge is incredibly brave and is rock solid under the high ball already. He just needs a few steaks in him, but im sure Exeter will beef him up as required.

Its a nice problem to have though...two young ACTUAL full backs fighting it out for the spot.

Heinz out Mitchell in. We talk about luck with injuries quite a lot....Robson needs to take his chance now.

I recently seen a vid of England training in preparation for the Barbarians. I this style unique? It looked quite top notch, and Eddie was in the middle of it running the show.

BamBam wrote:Not seen much domestic rugby this year, but the Steward / Hodge debate sounds like it could be one that people argue over for a while! The more solid, Mike Brown esque full back vs the Iain Balshaw 2001 type fireworks .. I have to say I'm a fan of a Balshaw type but depending on the make up of the rest of the back line its a good problem to have

Looking forward to watching us this weekend, was disappointed to see the Barbarians game cancelled over the weekend but couldn't be helped

Not sure if its already been posted, but the below link shows the teams for the intra squad training game that they played instead, some interesting positional selections here. A couple of video highlights further down the thread, I'm not familiar enough with the newbies to know who is who but some new faces making things happen!

https://twitter.com/bencoles_/status/1321391370406400002?s=20

That link didn't work for me but the picture of the training game sides is up on Ben Coles twitter still, really interesting to see thanks Bam.

For others, apparently Farrell and Ewels were skippers and "chose players out of a hat":

1.Obano/Mako 2.Dunn 3.Heyes 4.Itoje 5.Ribbans 6.Hill 7.Underhill 8.Curry
9.Youngs 10.Farrell (c) 11.Crossdale 12.Lawrence 13.Joseph 14.Thorley

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler/Stuart 4.Ewels (c) 5.Moon 6.Dombrandt 7.Earl 8.Vunipola
9.Heinz/Mitchell 10.Furbank 11.May 12.Dingwall 13.Marchant 14.Watson

I looked at those sides and immediately thought 'the first pack looks fantastic'. Actually thinking about it though I think you could put Itoje, Underhill and Curry with most players in recent England training squads and I'd think that.

Interesting that Ewels was the second skipper ahead of Itoje, Curry, Youngs or George. Just a training game though.

The other interesting thing was Furbank at 10, I would love to know how he went. He has all the attributes to make a very outside half.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:The other interesting thing was Furbank at 10, I would love to know how he went. He has all the attributes to make a very outside half.

Malins not being involved suggests he had a niggle so Furbank was the only other guy who has played 10. Other option might have been on of the scum-halves at 10 I guess.

Whilst Furbank struggled in his brief opportunities I hope we see him used as a playmaker more if he gets more chances. He is good at it and Daly being able to perform that role has been important for England.

Ewells second skipper...hhmmm...

I realise Slade is going to be flavour of the month given his Exeter exploits but JJ is simply a better player at 13 defense and offense. He never has a bad Test game and any sniff of a chance with ball in hand and he is in. Slade is a cultured player with loads of ability but pace and footwork at 13 are not better than JJ. Perhaps it's EJs wish to have another kicker in Dalys absence, will be the difference.

As far as Ewells goes, he was brought through the Bath academy by Danny Grewcock and his leadership at Bath is pretty much unquestioned by everyone at the club. I think he is well aware that sometimes he doesn't bring as much physicality at test level as some of his peers, but EJ keeps picking him for squads.

I might be biased with these two though.....

If we were talking about the JJ of a few years back I might agree but whilst still a dangerous runner he doesn't have the instant step he once had, defensively they're both very good; JJ covers the outside channel better than anyone whilst Slade is the more dominant in contact which does make a difference to a Jones team. Slade being the better distributor kicker is key to the gameplan if Farrell isn't at 12.

Is the team being announced today?

15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
10. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps) 
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
6. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)

FINISHERS

16. Tom Dunn, (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
17. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
20. Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
21. Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
22. Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
23. Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)

Excellent - Jonny Hill in. Surprised Launchbury is out and Ewels in but he is a Jones favourite for some reason. Great to see Slade at 12 and Robson, Lawrence and Thorley likely to feature.

Who is the back up 10 if Farrell gets injured? Slade?

Furbank, the centre combo, the decision between the bench lock / back row will be the talking points I reckon!

For me, Thorley starting with Watson at FB would have been the way to go, but I'm not a fan of jettisoning players too early so can see the logic with Furbank getting another chance, and Thorley will hopefully get minutes

I would have started Lawrence for a bit of additional bulk, but he should get a decent run out off the bench too.

Ewels stands out on the bench, as does the lack of Willis, but Earl is also a fine player. Our best back row in the right positions in the starting line up for me, so can't quibble too much!

Looking forward to the game now

Theres a lot I dont like about that team. Should be more than enough for Italy obviously but seems too cautious. No launchbury or willis is just stupid.

Interesting side...not what i was expecting to be honest.

Jones really does like Furbank doesnt he.

The centre balance i actually like. The playmaker and the "strike runner"
Slade really needs to start putting in the consistent performances for England of quality.

No Willis, but im a huge Earl fan...the complete flanker and he is the explosive carrier who will cover 8 if Billy comes off.

Great to see Johnny Hill in there...really deserves his shot. He's a big unit aswell. Needs to show some of his aggressive carrying and real physicality that he showed in the European Cup final.

Like it for the most part, the pack looks very mobile. Italy's forwards are really going to have to be on their mark because they are going to get moved around the pitch a lot.

Have wanted to see what Slade can do at 12 for a while.

Bring it on!

Earl should be good coming on against Italy. Good runner with the ball when theres space. Good to see the bench isnt dominated by forwards. And to be fair the back 3 on the bench is where my optimism lies.

BamBam wrote:Furbank, the centre combo, the decision between the bench lock / back row will be the talking points I reckon!

For me, Thorley starting with Watson at FB would have been the way to go, but I'm not a fan of jettisoning players too early so can see the logic with Furbank getting another chance, and Thorley will hopefully get minutes

I would have started Lawrence for a bit of additional bulk, but he should get a decent run out off the bench too.

Ewels stands out on the bench, as does the lack of Willis, but Earl is also a fine player. Our best back row in the right positions in the starting line up for me, so can't quibble too much!

Looking forward to the game now

To be honest...i imagine he just wants to record a big win against Italy and try to clinch the Title. I think we'll see a few of the changes you mentioned over the next few games, where theres nothing really at stake bar local rivalry...

i would imagine most teams will be trying out new players and combinations then...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting side...not what i was expecting to be honest.

Jones really does like Furbank doesnt he.

The centre balance i actually like. The playmaker and the "strike runner"
Slade really needs to start putting in the consistent performances for England of quality.

No Willis, but im a huge Earl fan...the complete flanker and he is the explosive carrier who will cover 8 if Billy comes off.

Great to see Johnny Hill in there...really deserves his shot. He's a big unit aswell. Needs to show some of his aggressive carrying and real physicality that he showed in the European Cup final.  

Furbank was poor in his 2 caps but prior to those caps most of us were calling for him to get a go as he's an out and out fullback that was on fire for Saints. I'd prefer Watson at fullback but Furbank has shown enough at his best form to get more than 2 caps. Especially when one of those caps was the Murrayfield game that had biblical conditions.

I agree it's great to see Hill in there and delighted that Earl stays in the 23. His cameos off the bench have been full of promise.

Really happy that Thorley should get a chance too. Slightly disappointed that Marchant isn't in the squad ahead of Lawrence but I expect both will get chances over the coming weeks.

Defensively I think Farrell-Slade-Joseph is the best midfield England have fielded for a while.

I think it's a decent team to be honest; the back row picks itself and Earl coming off the bench covering all three positions seems sensible, for Jones it was probably between him and Ludlam rather than Willis. Jonny Hill running the line out on debut is a big call but has been superb for a while now so worth the risk against Italy, Ewels rather than Launchbury on the bench however is an odd one.

Have to say I really like the look of Slade at 12 with Joseph at 13, the latter has slowly been getting back to his best for Bath, defensively it's hard to think of a better combination whilst both bring a lot to the team in attack. Slade needs to stamp his authority on the game and show he deserves the second playmaker role, he's more than good enough.

I like most would have picked Watson at full back but again do we want to be jettisoning Furbank after two games one of which was an abysmal spectacle?

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Interesting side...not what i was expecting to be honest.

Jones really does like Furbank doesnt he.

The centre balance i actually like. The playmaker and the "strike runner"
Slade really needs to start putting in the consistent performances for England of quality.

No Willis, but im a huge Earl fan...the complete flanker and he is the explosive carrier who will cover 8 if Billy comes off.

Great to see Johnny Hill in there...really deserves his shot. He's a big unit aswell. Needs to show some of his aggressive carrying and real physicality that he showed in the European Cup final.  

Defensively I think Farrell-Slade-Joseph is the best midfield England have fielded for a while.

He's in the "fulcrum" position that i want him in now. And as its Italy..i really want to see a performance of game management, kicking for territory, good passing, breaking the line ball in hand, and strong defence. I want a full complete performance from him on Saturday...

On Sunday the squad played a full match between themselves. They were mixed teams ( so not probables v possibles) with Farrell and Ewels the two captains. Eddie seems to value the leadership from the Bath man.

Furbank has been training at 10 as well as 15, so I guess he would be the initial replacement if Farrell went off. While it has been a long time since Slade played 12, it is even longer since he played at 10.

A bit disappointed as a Wasps fan not to see Willis & Launch involved.
However, I actually have no complaints of the team picked.
Hill is in there to run the lineout  & is in great form.
The weather is set fair in Rome so it makes sense to pick a very mobile 23.

Given all the injuries to front line players overall I’m happy & excited about that team.
Good luck in particular to Robson only 3 years too late.

Yeah I think its important to remember we have the rest of the Autumn to experiment, winning the 6N is never to be sniffed at so the "experienced" starting line up with one new boy in the pack and one at full back makes a lot of sense. Would hope to see the other debutants get 25 mins or so once we've racked up a few scores

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:A bit disappointed as a Wasps fan not to see Willis & Launch involved.
However, I actually have no complaints of the team picked.
Hill is in there to run the lineout  & is in great form.
The weather is set fair in Rome so it makes sense to pick a very mobile 23.

Given all the injuries to front line players overall I’m happy & excited about that team.
Good luck in particular to Robson only 3 years too late.

I'm a wasps fan too but I would have Hill over launch as I think he's the inform player with great ariel ability and blooming quick for big lad. I hope Dunn makes an impact at hooker as I've thought he's been excellent since the restart of the season. I suspect umaga will play some part in the autumn internationals. Our back row looks balanced and powerful, Willis will get his chance as Earl covers 6-8 he's probably the best all rounder on the bench. I also like the midfield with the pacey back three, hopefully Italy will be in for a long afternoon.

Yoda wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:A bit disappointed as a Wasps fan not to see Willis & Launch involved.
However, I actually have no complaints of the team picked.
Hill is in there to run the lineout  & is in great form.
The weather is set fair in Rome so it makes sense to pick a very mobile 23.

Given all the injuries to front line players overall I’m happy & excited about that team.
Good luck in particular to Robson only 3 years too late.

I'm a wasps fan too but I would have Hill over launch as I think he's the inform player with great ariel ability and blooming quick for big lad.  I hope Dunn makes an impact at hooker as I've thought he's been excellent since the restart of the season. I suspect umaga will play some part in the autumn internationals. Our back row looks balanced and powerful, Willis will get his chance as Earl covers 6-8 he's probably the best all rounder on the bench. I also like the midfield with the pacey back three, hopefully Italy will be in for a long afternoon.

Ive been impressed with some of Hills carrying in traffic aswell. He's put a bit of muscle on that huge lanky frame and He's making the hard yards with some aggressive work aswell as showing his pace in the open.

Willis has been on fire, but dont forget Ben Earl is a beast aswell. What an incredibly explosive powerhouse to bring off the bench.

At the start of his England tenure, when Eddie was scraping around for flankers could he have ever imagined the position he would be in now?

It seems a long time ago when he was forced into selecting Tom Wood.

Nowt wrong with Tom Wood

I really like the team I'll be honest. I think it's got fast running game written all over. Most of the players are in a rich vein of form or class anyway. If Wing Commander Furbank can catch the high balls (which is one of the few weaknesses), I can see us running in a fair few scores.

That pack looks destructive and an excellent choice all round. I have to say that even with a few top players out, it's still a cracking team. Looking forward to this!

Does seem short on FH cover and I still have questions over Furbank but looks fun