England: 8 Nations

First topic message reminder :

Not sure if theres already a thread kicking about but seeing as the prem is back I thought it may be nice to argue over the numerous players impressing.

As ever it seems to be scrum half, flankers, centre and full back are where there are chances for people to force their way in. Can't say I've ever been able to call what Eddie Jones thinks but Willis and hill must be tempting him to widen the player pool. A number of scrum halfs have started well also but has the time come for Spencer or Robson? Thought Maunder was very good too and Mitchell showed great flashes.

I'm at a bit of a loss for full back based on the games last week. Furbank looked anonymous and let's face it Daly is a Jones favourite.

Soul Requiem wrote:Until Big Joe sorts out the defensive side of his game he'll always be behind Nowell in the pecking order i'd have thought, may have the edge on explosive power but Jack just makes hard yards every time he carries, often thought he'd make a decent full back in the Mike Brown mould.

Agree that Nowell is ahead of Cokanasiga for good reason. Nowell's all round game has been very strong from U20's onwards.

With Nowell at fullback we'd lose his carrying off 9 where he makes those hard yards and lose his kick chase which is excellent. The argument can be made that Nowell could play 15 but still carry off 9 and chase kicks from the wing with another winger dropping back instead. It feels a lot like Lawes wearing 5 but playing blindside though.

It's not that I think Nowell is a bad fullback option, he's a very good one, but he's a better winger. Similar to my views with Watson. He's a very good fullback but one of the best wings in the world - in my opinion of course. I think it was LT a wee while back that said something along the lines of, "we lose more with Watson moving off the wing than we gain with him at fullback". It's pretty much my view with both.

For the short term I wouldn't mind Watson playing fullback to allow Thorley or Cokanasiga game time. Longer term I hope that one of Hodge, Steward, etc can come through so Watson can keep the 14 shirt nailed down.

I see it from the perspective that all of the better full back options we have happen to be better playing on the wing so something has to give; May, Watson and Nowell doesn't go into two wing positions but you could play all three. Any of them with 15 on their back has to be preferable to Daly.

Squad announced. Robson and Willis in. Dombrandt isn't. I cannot comprehend Eddie sometimes.

Umaga too apparently

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen much of Radwan, how does he compare to Kibigrige?  Been impressed with him this year and looks like hes finally fulfilling that early potential (that was dulled a touch by Richards as an outsider).

GF is better placed to compare him to Kibirige but he's got the same sort of pace, a great step and importantly he has a good all round game. His handling, positioning, tackling and kicking are all solid. With limited senior rugby under his belt he will naturally need experience to improve those things further but unlike a lot of young wings with the attacking potential of Radwan he doesn't have an obvious weakness to his game. Certainly one to watch IMO.

Kibirige is a frustration for Falcons fans. He came through and in the brief glimpses was a real hope. Then he got a horrific injury and also had a court case to go through.
Add into that Dean Richards bizarre manner of not trusting young backs (theres the odd exception but we still have no idea why Dean refused to play him when he was fit and raring to go)....and he was left as a peripheral figure. He requested the move to Wasps and has simply thrived.

On the pitch,
I thought Kibirige was quick, but Radwan is quicker and more importantly i believe quicker off the mark. If theres a gap on the inside he'll be through it or on the outside...he'll take the man on.  
He is lightly built but ripped and he is clearly very strong for his lean frame. His defence is rock solid. He is certainly one to watch as the boy can simply make things happen on the pitch. He is already a proven match winner for us.

Can he make the England grade? Lets see how he goes in the prem first. He has the ability but needs to show it in the top flight.

Players like young Thorley have been ripping it up in the prem all the time Radwan has been in the Championship etc.

Soul Requiem wrote:I see it from the perspective that all of the better full back options we have happen to be better playing on the wing so something has to give; May, Watson and Nowell doesn't go into two wing positions but you could play all three. Any of them with 15 on their back has to be preferable to Daly.

For Daly's known weakness under the high ball the England attack has improved massively with him at fullback. Having Daly outside Farrell acting almost like a playmaker in the outside channels has changed our attack and improved our finishing.

I've said it before but the try in the semi-final vs New Zealand was a classic case. From the lineout England carry tight twice then immediately get the ball to Daly in the outside channel with May and Watson running on either shoulder. It leads to Daly making the half break and releasing Watson which leads to the try.

His kicking game is also excellent from fullback with England frequently using him to clear under pressure.

I hope that a natural fullback who's rock solid under the high ball can be found but I feel more wary than most posters about the attack going backwards in the process. What Daly has added there compared to Brown seems to be taken for granted at times.

Mr Bounce wrote:Squad announced. Robson and Willis in. Dombrandt isn't. I cannot comprehend Eddie sometimes.

Phew. I can stand no Dombrandt as it pushes a willis underhill and curry back row further up the order. The more I think about it the more I think it will flourish.

More detail on a few of the absentees from the rfu.

'England have been in training for the fixtures during October at The Lensbury in Teddington. The squad includes seven Gallagher Premiership finalists - Exeter Chiefs trio Jonny Hill, Henry Slade and Harry Williams, along with Wasps’ Joe Launchbury, Dan Robson, Jacob Umaga and Jack Willis.

Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ali Crossdale, Courtney Lawes, Jack Nowell, Manu Tuilagi and Mark Wilson are unavailable due to injury. Elliot Daly, George Ford and Joe Marler will join up with the squad for reconditioning.

Jones said: “We have to put our best foot forward if we want to win the Six Nations. We need to set the tone of the game and we want to put a smile on fans’ faces, a lot of people are enduring hardships and we are grateful for the opportunity to represent England in these difficult times.'

Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 13 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)

Forwards

Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)



Daly and ford back but no LCD which is a shame as I thought he was really pushing for a start. Malins probably had a chance to impress yesterday cruelly snatched from him. Would have been a long shot for Italy but he cant be happy.

king_carlos wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:I see it from the perspective that all of the better full back options we have happen to be better playing on the wing so something has to give; May, Watson and Nowell doesn't go into two wing positions but you could play all three. Any of them with 15 on their back has to be preferable to Daly.

I hope that a natural fullback who's rock solid under the high ball can be found but I feel more wary than most posters about the attack going backwards in the process. What Daly has added there compared to Brown seems to be taken for granted at times.

We've just let him go to Exeter to develop and he is currently learning from Hogg, Nowell etc. Josh Hodge will be the FB England are looking for dont worry.

And in the meantime Watson who is playing there successfully for Bath which allows Thorley as a form winger a chance.

BBC wrote:Backs: Cokanasiga, Farrell, Furbank, Heinz, Joseph, Lawrence, Malins, Marchant, May, Robson, Slade, Thorley, Umaga, Watson, Youngs.
Forwards: Curry, Dunn, Earl, Ewels, Genge, George, J Hill, T Hill, Itoje, Launchbury, Ludlam, Obano, Ribbans, Singleton, Sinckler, Stuart, Underhill, B Vunipola, M Vunipola, Williams, Willis.

Dombrandt misses out with Ludlam back in now fit.

Williams recalled and Stuart retained.

Ribbans keeps his place ahead of Moon with Jonny Hill replacing the later.

Robson replaces Mitchell with Heinz retaining his place.

Umaga retained ahead of Simmonds or Smith.

Francis left out which suggests that either Slade or Lawrence will get game time at 12. An outside chance that Umaga might get a chance at 10 with Faz at 12.

Good to see Malins retained.

I wouldn't ignore the Tuilagi effect there KC, his return to the side coincided with the upturn in tries scored by England, his mere presence creates space for others. I also don't rate Daly's kicking game, in theory it should be a plus but there have been numerous occasions that his kicking from hand has been poor.

I've read that Smith is injured from the general public but havent seen anything official. For me hes a better more rounded version of Umaga.

Some good players in that squad! Can build a really good team and squad.

Wonder whats up with Mark Wilson. Hope its not a serious injury, we could do with out that

I really hope we see Slade at 12. He needs to learn to put his stamp on these international games, as i really dont think he does it consistently enough.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Some good players in that squad! Can build a really good team and squad.

Wonder whats up with Mark Wilson. Hope its not a serious injury, we could do with out that

Something something George Ford as well, something something Tigers and Falcons, something something relegation battle.

bang on KC.

Will Johnny Hill start?

He stole a lineout vs Launchbury first 5 mins in the final. But then was second best for the rest of the match. Balance vs better player?

ENGLAND SQUAD
Backs
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby, 9 caps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens, 83 caps)
George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 2 caps)
Willi Heinz (Gloucester Rugby, 13 caps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 50 caps)
Ollie Lawrence (Worcester Warriors, uncapped)
Max Malins (Bristol Bears, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 3 caps)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 56 caps)
Dan Robson (Wasps, 2 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 29 caps)
Ollie Thorley (Gloucester Rugby, uncapped)
Jacob Umaga (Wasps, uncapped)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 43 caps)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 99 caps)

Forwards
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 23 caps)
Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Ben Earl (Bristol Bears, 3 caps)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 18 caps)
Jamie George (Saracens, 49 caps)
Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Ted Hill (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
Maro Itoje (Saracens, 38 caps)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 65 caps)
Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby, uncapped)
David Ribbans (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Jack Singleton (Gloucester Rugby, 3 caps)
Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 35 caps)
Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 51 caps)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 59 caps)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 18 caps)
Jack Willis (Wasps, uncapped)


Luke Cowan-Dickie, Ali Crossdale, Courtney Lawes, Jack Nowell, Manu Tuilagi and Mark Wilson are unavailable due to injury. Elliot Daly, George Ford and Joe Marler will join up with the squad for reconditioning.

That selection of athletic forwards has power written all over it. More ball carrying by the forwards in the absence of Tuilagi to create the midfield space?
Like others, I don't get Dombrandts omission but looks like EJ wants to run the opposition off their feet.
From a bias point of view would like to see Dunn and Obano get a run, but will probably have to wait for the following sequence of games, which will be a series of warm ups for the subsequent 6Ns

Mr Bounce wrote:Squad announced. Robson and Willis in. Dombrandt isn't. I cannot comprehend Eddie sometimes.

If you don't get back to your feet quick enough then Jones won't pick you in his back row, Dombrandt is improving in that regard but not quite there.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He stole a lineout vs Launchbury first 5 mins in the final. But then was second best for the rest of the match. Balance vs better player?

Perhaps being pedantic but Hill would be better compared to Rowlands and Skinner compared to Launchbury from the final. Hill and Rowland's were running their respective lineouts whilst Skinner and Launchbury expected to be more prominent in the loose.

The Chiefs lineout ran better than the Wasps one did with both Hill and Gray in charge. I thought the Chiefs mauling got more inconsistent in attack and defence when Hill went off in fact.

Launchbury starting with Itoje will hinge on whether Jones feels Itoje can run the lineout. He is a fantastic jumper but has led the lineout relatively little in senior rugby since captaining Sarries to the then Anglo-Welsh Cup in 2014/15. Kruis and Lawes with England, AWJ with the Lions and Kruis, Kpoku, Isiekwe and back in the day Jim Hamilton with Sarries. He's always had teammates that have meant it's not part of his game that has needed to develop.

If they don't think Itoje is a lineout leader then Launchbury will be competing with Itoje for one spot.

Is Isiekwe an overlooked emmision or should he not be there on form / ability?

So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is Isiekwe an overlooked emmision or should he not be there on form / ability?

Probably a casualty of both him and Lawes being picked at 6 for Saints.

Since the restart Saints have had Lawes, Isiekwe, Moon, Ribbans, Ratuniyarawa and Bean as second rows but only Harrison, Adendorff, Ludlam and Gibson (re-signed short term) as back rows. As such Lawes and Isiekwe were used as blindsides as Saints rotated week to week. Lawes naturally being the first choice given he was England's starter at 6 and in great form there prior to the season's postponement.

I really rate Isiekwe and if England persist with wanting a strong lineout option in the back row I hope he is looked at. I'd prefer to see us try a back row that's less set-piece orientated though and see if the locks (Itoje in particular) can hold up at the lineout and in maul defence.

How the maul defence goes without Kruis and Lawes may be telling of how good they both are there. Those two and Itoje gives three players who can disrupt lineout ball in the air and maul. Launchbury is very good at disrupting mauls but realistically doesn't touch those three as a jumper - I'm a Launchbury fan I will state there! Jonny Hill has shown himself to be good in lineout defence for Chiefs but yet to play internationally.

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

I'm also a touch interested to know which of the 6 should be dropped.

Mako Vunipola 
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Elliot Daly

5 Lions and by far our best number 8 who would've been a Lion if fit.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

I'm also a touch interested to know which of the 6 should be dropped.

Mako Vunipola 
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Elliot Daly

5 Lions and by far our best number 8 who would've been a Lion if fit.

And technically Ben Earl aswell...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

I'm also a touch interested to know which of the 6 should be dropped.

Mako Vunipola 
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Elliot Daly

5 Lions and by far our best number 8 who would've been a Lion if fit.

And technically Ben Earl aswell...

And Malins and Singleton if we are being pedantic....

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He stole a lineout vs Launchbury first 5 mins in the final. But then was second best for the rest of the match. Balance vs better player?

Perhaps being pedantic but Hill would be better compared to Rowlands and Skinner compared to Launchbury from the final. Hill and Rowland's were running their respective lineouts whilst Skinner and Launchbury expected to be more prominent in the loose.

The Chiefs lineout ran better than the Wasps one did with both Hill and Gray in charge. I thought the Chiefs mauling got more inconsistent in attack and defence when Hill went off in fact.

Launchbury starting with Itoje will hinge on whether Jones feels Itoje can run the lineout. He is a fantastic jumper but has led the lineout relatively little in senior rugby since captaining Sarries to the then Anglo-Welsh Cup in 2014/15. Kruis and Lawes with England, AWJ with the Lions and Kruis, Kpoku, Isiekwe and back in the day Jim Hamilton with Sarries. He's always had teammates that have meant it's not part of his game that has needed to develop.

If they don't think Itoje is a lineout leader then Launchbury will be competing with Itoje for one spot.

I agree with that. Sorry my comparison was because it's out of them to play with Itoje. Given the strength of the chiefs lineout I thought it was heartening to see Laumchburys maul defence which was as good as ever. Personally I'd put more of the blame on those lineouts to the 2 hookers. Both good players but a number went in not straight or over or undercooked. I'd go with Launchbury but yes completely get Hill and Itoje are the more natural 4 5.

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

I'm also a touch interested to know which of the 6 should be dropped.

Mako Vunipola 
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Elliot Daly

5 Lions and by far our best number 8 who would've been a Lion if fit.

The answer would be Daly. Even I would have him as a very good bench option though.

Just seen another point elsewhere...

Since Jones reign began only 3 10's have played in capped games - Farrell and Ford, with Cipriani playing in one capped game.

Is that correct?

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rosbif wrote:So the best two teams get 7 players picked between them  whereas Bath have 8 in the squad and the relegation team 6 , bizarre.

But this year relegated team doesnt mean worst team...

I'm also a touch interested to know which of the 6 should be dropped.

Mako Vunipola 
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Billy Vunipola
Owen Farrell
Elliot Daly

5 Lions and by far our best number 8 who would've been a Lion if fit.

And technically Ben Earl aswell...

And Malins and Singleton if we are being pedantic....

Very true

GeordieFalcon wrote:Just seen another point elsewhere...

Since Jones reign began only 3 10's have played in capped games - Farrell and Ford, with Cipriani playing in one capped game.

Is that correct?

Probably. Both pretty well set when Jones came in, young enough to not have to think of replacements, both maintained fitness and form.

Only now have we got the next few pushing in umaga, smith and Simmonds. You can quibble o er cipriani but never showed consistency in an england shirt to demand selection over the front runners.

Potentially Malins would have been pushing at fly half 18months ago but somehow his club could afford to stockpile these set of class players!

Surprised by Sam Simmons not being called up, not so much his brother. Umanga is a good quality 10 who will be be seriously good in a couple of years time. Marcus Smith has that Danny cipriani feel about him, does this put Jones off? Apart from dropping Mitchell for heinz the squad is pretty decent. Dombrants time will come as Jones has to have some experience in the squad. Or back line looks seriously good with genuine choices depending on how we want to play. We'll be rusty though and think France will sneek the no. 1 spot sat.

I initially read Ford was back in the squad rather than reconditioning. Gives Malins that opening, may even start if Jones still wants Farrell as control and the guiding influence. Knowing each other from saracens may help him get his foot in the door.

From the guardian The recently appointed skills coach Jason Ryles will join up with the team for the start of the Autumn Nations Cup, after finishing the season and winning the NRL Grand Final with Melbourne Storm, where he was assistant coach.

Is Mallins viewed as a 10 or a 15?

Probably both. Personally I think hes a better 10 now but theres obviously more of an opening at 15 for england. I worry about his defensive positioning and the tackling issues which come with that and his kicking from 15. Can't remember who said it earlier though possibly WPI or king, hes better than daly at that so it's still a step up!

I think i'd like to see him go for the 10 spot. He's some player.

Clearly theres something about Marcus Smith that Jones isnt happy with, which is why Umaga has now leapfrogged him in to the squad.

Asked before but not seen an answer. Seen lots of fans saying Smith is injured but no definitive from Harlequins. Smith is equally adept at attacking running as Umaga (what I see as his point of difference) but loads more control too. I'd find it another odd one if he were behind and hes not injured.

Edit: just seen a tweet from Monye suggestig he injured.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Probably both. Personally I think hes a better 10 now but theres obviously more of an opening at 15 for england. I worry about his defensive positioning and the tackling issues which come with that and his kicking from 15. Can't remember who said it earlier though possibly WPI or king, hes better than daly at that so it's still a step up!

Certainly not me, only seen him play a couple of times.

On the point of Smith vs Umaga, is one defensively better than the other. I know Umaga id solid from what I have seen, what is Smith like if the opposition start putting locks through his channel?

I thought Smith was also solid in defense.

Currently Smith a better player but umaga but the only thing I can think of that may catapult umaga above smith is his temperament? Does Smith bring others around him into the game or is he a show boater. Hopefully some quins fans can enlighten us. Personally I'd be very happy to see either of them in the team sheet, we could be entering a really creative midfield period.

Well Jones has Farrell, Umaga, and Mallins in the squad plus Ford in reconditioning, so he has his two "trusty soldiers" in there and then has plenty of time to have a look at the other two over the autumn games.

From having watched Umaga and Smith a lot (I really rate Smith and Umaga's progress having moved from the Tigers academy interests me) I'd say that Smith is better at bringing his wingers/outside backs into play in attack whilst Umaga is arguably better at bringing forwards and crash ball carriers onto the ball.

Smith, somewhat similarly to Cipriani, will vary whether he takes the ball flat to the line or takes it deeper to give him more time. Whilst Umaga seems to play flat to the line more often with a second playmaker in Gopperth sat behind if Wasps want to play less flat. The partnership that Umaga has with Gopperth could certainly translate over to having Farrell at 12. I see little chance of Umaga starting at 10 without Farrell outside him unless there are a few injuries.

The later point of fitting into England's structure is why I'd guess Simmonds isn't being looked at. He doesn't offer anything standout in attack from fly-half to push Farrell to 12 but arguably doesn't offer more than Farrell as a fly-half either. Their strengths at 10 are similar. Both are very physical (Simmonds tackles like a flanker), good kickers and have good temperaments. Perhaps Jones views Simmonds as too similar a player to Farrell and wants tactical differences in his options. If Farrell were to get injured against Italy I'd be intrigued to see if Simmonds were called up.

I think Smith is the better tactical kicker. Umaga played centre as well as 10 at age grade and has settled at fly-half latterly. For England age grade I think he had Malins and Brophy-Clews a year ahead of him, then Smith burst through an age grade below. Umaga is improving as a tactical kicker but makes more mistakes than Smith in my opinion. Given how much England rely on tactical kicking Jones may obviously disagree if he's picking Umaga.

Both are solid in defence. Umaga is significantly bigger but I wouldn't say he hits any harder. Probably in part why he has settled at 10 not 12.

Smith will often drop back in defence for Quins but that is a tactical thing in my opinion. The Gustard defence usually plays with two backs dropped deep to cover and the wingers in the defensive line. Smith also packed down at flanker in the scrum against Saints with Will Evans stood at fly-half, leading some to knock Smith's defence. It was a 5 metre attacking Northampton scrum with Naiyaravoro standing behind the scrum with a pretty obvious intention. So Gustard put his best tackler in the backline to stop it. Which arguably worked given Saints immediately used Naiyaravoro as a dummy runner and went wide.

I rate Smith and Simmonds higher than Umaga at this point but the Wasps man has been a key part of an impressive attack since Gopperth regained fitness.

Good analysis, Carlos.

I really don't get the constant comparisons of Smith to Cipriani. They are only alike in the respect that Smith is probably closer to Cips in creativity than the other English fly halves. But Smith has a far more controlled and controlling game, especially given his age, has visibly worked on his weaknesses, and is nowhere near as much of an [insert forbidden word of choice here] as Cipriani was at the same age.

Eddie selects based on his gut feel for players but also gives individuals some clear messaging about what he wants them to work on before he will select them. Smith may well have more to work on than Umaga right now; but with Eddie that could change tomorrow.

For what it's worth, though, I suspect Umaga is in and Smith is out right now because Umaga is used to playing with a second playmaker at 12 and Smith isn't to anything like the same degree (Quins haven't had consistency at 12 this season, and have played better with Lasike and Esterhuizen as crash ball centres than with Lang at 12). In terms of who can fit into England's tactical patterns more easily in place of Ford, Umaga is a better bet, especially at short notice.

I think there are similarities to be drawn between Smith and Cipriani. Both have strong attacking games, vary how deep they take the ball (fairly rare for English fly-halves who often either play flat or deep), use their kicking well in attack but sometimes too optimistically and can run the ball well themselves.

A discussion for a different thread perhaps but my view of Cips has always been him being a different player pre and post his horrid leg break. When he broke through at fullback and then fly-half for Wasps his talent was enormous. He had the big tactical kicking game and passing he still has but was also quicker than most wingers. After the leg break his game had to change completely. He lost form at Wasps, moved to Melbourne, came back to Sale and developed into a very good fly-half who can control a game. His issues with drinking came about during his latter years with Sale so way beyond Smith's age. Outside of the nightclub incident on the eve of his debut (which most his teammates at the time seem to think was blown out of proportion) I don't think he had any real 'incidents' until drink became an issue years later. He had a scrap with Lewsey in training but by Lewsey's own admission that happened a fair bit when Shaun Edwards was running their defence sessions but that time it hit the papers.

I'd take Smith over Umaga but either way I like that Jones is looking at fly-halves that offer different attacking options.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjGt904RHXo&ab_channel=RugbyJubbly

That's a good highlights video from Smith for 2019/20. I thought he had a really good season.

From the Times

Against all his natural instincts, Jones, the head coach, says that he has identified the need for England to move away from fielding a playmaker at inside centre. With Tuilagi out injured, Ollie Lawrence, the rising star at Worcester Warriors, is now firmly in the frame to be handed the No 12 jersey and make his Test debut on Saturday.

Looks like Olly could be in at 12 maybe Slade 13.