Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[Soul Requiem]

First topic message reminder :

The far left is often dependent on where an individual themselves is on the political spectrum, for example Owen Jones may be seen as far left to someone who is centre right but to a centrist will be seen as merely left wing, personally have him down as part of the hard left.

I have him as left wing. Though is hard left not the same as far left because I dont have him as far left. I get tge views based on your own spectrum though. Which is why I hare labour supporters calling Starmer and others right wing.  Left of centre is not right wing.

I would say that hard left is within the standard left wing myself, thinking of someone like Tony Benn being hard left as opposed to Ed Milliband who was soft left, will say however that is possibly closer to far left than it is the centre.

[super_realist]

Moving people's behaviour to focus on one of the lesser causes of climate change doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

If you want to address an issue, why would you not focus on what is the biggest cause we are able to do something about?
It's hard to tell whether cults like XR actually care more about environmentalism or their anti capitalist stance.

It seems they prefer to deflect the most serious issues to attack a particular angle, that to me is dishonest.

[beninho]

Realist getting riled about people he doesn't care about who are making a programme he won't watch.

Weird.

Oh, just noticed he said virtue signalling. Love it!

If they aren't virtue signalling then what are they? Certainly not sincere.

People who use the term virtue signalling in an open forum are generally themselves virtue signalling.

[superflyweight]

Isn't transportation overall about the same as any other contributor, asuuming domestic and industrial usage are split. I'm still not certain of exactly what you are saying is far and away the biggest contributor.

I travel to work on a farting cow just to muddle the metrics.

[super_realist]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

[beninho]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

[McLaren]

Super

i am arguing against your idea that megan and harry shouldn't make the argument because of who they are or what they do.

if you wish to move on to whether or not what they say is accurate or worthwhile then fine, but that was not your initial argument and you are now guilty of gish galloping or changing focus of the debate.

[super_realist]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

That's not what virtue signalling is, but yes I obviously have a higher level of knowledge on the issue than they do.

[super_realist]

Super

i am arguing against your idea that megan and harry shouldn't make the argument because of who they are or what they do.

if you wish to move on to whether or not what they say is accurate or worthwhile then fine, but that was not your initial argument and you are now guilty of gish galloping or changing focus of the debate.

Mac, I'm addressing both points of their infantile stance at the same time, they aren't mutually exclusive. They are both hypocritical and poorly informed. Not good bed fellows.

Anyway, I'm really just trying to keep this dying board from weeks of no conversation.

[beninho]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

That's not what virtue signalling is, but yes I obviously have a higher level of knowledge on the issue than they do.

People who claim virtue signalling are more often than not planks, and im walking into that. But, I cant see how you are not doing it yourselves.

[super_realist]

Because you aren't understanding what virtue signalling is. I'm not bigging myself up to be some noble, self righteous environmentalist like they are am I?, that would be virtue signalling.
I'm pointing out where they are wrong and where the points they are addressing are not focusing on the biggest impact. Thats not virtue signalling at all.

[Soul Requiem]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

That's not what virtue signalling is, but yes I obviously have a higher level of knowledge on the issue than they do.

People who claim virtue signalling are more often than not planks, and im walking into that. But, I cant see how you are not doing it yourselves.

The argument itself is rather pointless but interested to know how having an opinion is virtue signalling? Criticising Harry and Meghan isn't done with the intention of demonstrating ones good character so doesn't apply.

[beninho]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

That's not what virtue signalling is, but yes I obviously have a higher level of knowledge on the issue than they do.

People who claim virtue signalling are more often than not planks, and im walking into that. But, I cant see how you are not doing it yourselves.

The argument itself is rather pointless but interested to know how having an opinion is virtue signalling? Criticising Harry and Meghan isn't done with the intention of demonstrating ones good character so doesn't apply.

Realist. Do you think you care more about the environment than the ex royals?, considering you have already stressed you know more then they do.

[navyblueshorts]

Super

i am arguing against your idea that megan and harry shouldn't make the argument because of who they are or what they do.

if you wish to move on to whether or not what they say is accurate or worthwhile then fine, but that was not your initial argument and you are now guilty of gish galloping or changing focus of the debate.

Surely, especially these days, you'd have to agree that pontificating that the rest of us should do something while not oneself abiding by the same advice, is both hypocritical and unlikely to garner a lot of support. I agree w/ you in principle, but the world doesn't work like that for most people I'm afraid.

[super_realist]

How am I virtue signalling? I'm criticising Harry and Meghan for attaching themselves to a movement they don't even believe in or feel they don't need to play their part.

By talking them down, are you not showing off yourself as someone with a higher view, knowledge or opinion. Expressing your own correctness on an issue.

That's not what virtue signalling is, but yes I obviously have a higher level of knowledge on the issue than they do.

People who claim virtue signalling are more often than not planks, and im walking into that. But, I cant see how you are not doing it yourselves.

The argument itself is rather pointless but interested to know how having an opinion is virtue signalling? Criticising Harry and Meghan isn't done with the intention of demonstrating ones good character so doesn't apply.

Realist. Do you think you care more about the environment than the ex royals?, considering you have already stressed you know more then they do.

I probably do (not that I'm trying virtue signal about it and blow smoke up my own backside or tell others how to live) I'm not flying on private jets every other week, I don't live in a 16 bed mansion in California etc or own other properties. I walk almost everywhere etc and have an efficient low CO2 car. I certainly live a life which is less impactful on the climate than they do and I clearly know more about it than they do, the difference is that im not telling people to love one way and then live the other am I?

[JuliusHMarx]

Do you think everyone should be doing their best to reduce their carbon footprint?

[super_realist]

Do you think everyone should be doing their best to reduce their carbon footprint?

It's up to them, I'm not going to force them, but what I won't do is tell them they must and then proceed to have a carbon footprint 30x that of an average Brit, would you?

For example it's hypocritical to tell a developing nation they must reduce their carbon footprint.

[JuliusHMarx]

I'm not asking if you would force anyone, I'm asking if you would encourage anyone.

[super_realist]

I'm not asking if you would force anyone, I'm asking if you would encourage anyone.

No, it's not my job to encourage anyone to do anything. If you want to reduce your Carbon Footprint do it, if you don't I'm not going to encourage you, just don't  have a massive carbon footprint and then expect everyone else to cut back whilst you do nothing .  Isn't that fair enough?

So if Cumberbatch tells me to cut back on my emmisions whilst simultaneously knocking cyclists off their bikes in his Lamborghini Urus, then he's the one who is looking like an idiot for taking that stance isn't he?

[JuliusHMarx]

Surely you must give unsolicited advice on one subject or another occasionally during the course of normal conversation?

But let's say, for the sake of argument, I encourage my children to be more environmentally friendly, even though I drive a car that is average for CO2 emissions. Am I opening myself up to charges of being hypocritical, in that I could exchange my car for one with lower emissions? Or give up driving altogether and simply stay at home more often?

[super_realist]

I wouldn't say so because you are most likely of an average, probably reducing carbon footprint. If you did that whilst driving a 10mpg American V8, then clearly you would be.

I often have a go at fat people for example, but I'm coming more at it from the point of not expecting someone else to pay for it, take  the blame for it or its side effects  rather than they must become slimmer because I say so.

[JuliusHMarx]

So it's more a matter of scale, in which case everyone will have their own opinion on how far over the line a person has to be, to be a hypocrite.
Not that I'm defending Harry and Meghan, as I'm not even interested enough in them to find out what they said.

[McLaren]

Super

i am arguing against your idea that megan and harry shouldn't make the argument because of who they are or what they do.

if you wish to move on to whether or not what they say is accurate or worthwhile then fine, but that was not your initial argument and you are now guilty of gish galloping or changing focus of the debate.

Surely, especially these days, you'd have to agree that pontificating that the rest of us should do something while not oneself abiding by the same advice, is both hypocritical and unlikely to garner a lot of support. I agree w/ you in principle, but the world doesn't work like that for most people I'm afraid.

Yes I agree that if they want to really do some good and change peoples minds it will probably require not having a PR image of being hypocrites. We just have to look at Supers reaction to see how fickle people are when accepting arguments, even if those arguments are factually correct.

I don't follow the story, so could someone more unbiased than super tell me whether or not the information Megs and Harry put out about climate change is accurate?

[JuliusHMarx]

I'm not sure what they said, but this gives an idea of what contributes to greenhouse gases in the USA - I think they are still there.
https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions

I'm not sure either where super found his data that heating and domestic power is 'far and away' the biggest contributor (or to what), unless it's something like that link, but combining electricity with domestic.

[beninho]

I'm pretty sure the exact same argument was had about Lewis Hamilton Dont think my view has changed. I don't care if your a hypocrite. But, also I don't think people should do sonethibg or be something because a celebrity says so, but celebrity endorsement has been around forever, so obviously works. I do think anti celebrity endorsement people are stranger though.

[McLaren]

Thanks Julius, I will check that out.



Ben

Exactly, like I said last time this debate come round, if athletes can sell trainers or influencers sell whatever then why can't some celebs be used to sell a sensible idea (like we need to do something about CO2 emissions)?

I am sure Michael Jordan has grabbed a pair of shoes from the back door to run into the garden that weren't nike. But he still sells Trainers.

[JuliusHMarx]

It would indeed be far better to follow the good advice of a hypocrite than not to. Either way you can still label them a hypocrite, but at least in the former case you're not being a twonk for ignoring it as a matter of principle.

[super_realist]

Why? Who is saying their advice is good? Why aren't they telling us to insulatw our homes better instead of focusing on a less important contributor to climate change?

[super_realist]

Thanks Julius, I will check that out.



Ben

Exactly, like I said last time this debate come round, if athletes can sell trainers or influencers sell whatever then why can't some celebs be used to sell a sensible idea (like we need to do something about CO2 emissions)?

I am sure Michael Jordan has grabbed a pair of shoes from the back door to run into the garden that weren't nike. But he still sells Trainers.

We don't have fat  people selling us trainers and sportswear, Fred West selling us patios, Trump advertising HMRC, Chris Packham supporting Fox Hunts or paedophiles selling us child care do we?

If you want to influence someone with what you claim to "believe" it's probably best if you practice what you preach isn't it?  Otherwise people just think you're an idiotic hypocrite who is just doing it to attach themselves to a trendy movement and will see that if they aren't doing it, why should they?

When has it ever been more effective for a hypocrite to be the figurehead of a movement than someone who lives by what they claim to believe in? Far more people will stick up the middle finger than listen to them.

[beninho]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

[Soul Requiem]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Which of course nobody has said but rather that people like Harry and Meghan would be better off not saying anything at all.

Does them speaking out change my opinion of things? No
Do I think they'd be better off not saying anything at all? Yes

[beninho]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Which of course nobody has said but rather that people like Harry and Meghan would be better off not saying anything at all.

Does them speaking out change my opinion of things? No
Do I think they'd be better off not saying anything at all? Yes

Why, do you think it would be better if for them or anyone else to not speak out on things? Do you not think people take in board what celebrity's say? Surely even if a minority of people change what they do in a better way, thats a good thing?

[Soul Requiem]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

[beninho]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

[Soul Requiem]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

What exactly needs fleshing out?

If you're going about your everyday life oblivious to the problems in the world and then suddenly change your ways because of a statement made by Prince Harry then frankly you're an imbecile.

[super_realist]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Which of course nobody has said but rather that people like Harry and Meghan would be better off not saying anything at all.

Does them speaking out change my opinion of things? No
Do I think they'd be better off not saying anything at all? Yes

Why, do you think it would be better if for them or anyone else to not speak out on things? Do you not think people take in board what celebrity's say?  Surely even if a minority of people change what they do in a better way, thats a good thing?

If you're a hypocrite say nothing as it damages anything you claim to stand for if you don't follow your own advice.

[super_realist]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Nobody says you don't care about it because of what they say, but I cannot see how anyone is going to take the advice of anyone who is not living by the standards they are imploring others to take.
If someone told you to reduce your emissions but then got in a Dodge Hellcat or some other 5mpg car or a private jet you'd tell them to eff off and rightly so.
People listen to experts on matters of science i.e. people with knowledge and credibility, not never-have-beens like these two who demonstrably know nothing about climate and visibly don't care about it. What worth is there in such an empty gesture? You surely don't genuinely think that people are actually changing their views on climate because of these publicity seeking, oxygen thieving, self promoting, out of touch, demonstrably stupid  sub humans?

Everything they do is about feathering their own nest and everything they say is in direct contradiction to what they actually do. It wasn't so long ago they were saying "We won't live in America as long as Trump is President" and "We just want a private life" now they live in America and have signed TV deals about their lives, so who is going to listen to their transparent bandwagon jumping on climate change? No one with a brain.

[beninho]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

What exactly needs fleshing out?

If you're going about your everyday life oblivious to the problems in the world and then suddenly change your ways because of a statement made by Prince Harry then frankly you're an imbecile.

Kinell you are hard work. Not keen on answering the questions. Anyway, I'll try again. Even if they are an imbeciles, if they take on board something they have heard from a celebrity, on climate changeis that not a good thing?

[beninho]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Nobody says you don't care about it because of what they say, but I cannot see how anyone is going to take the advice of anyone who is not living by the standards they are imploring others to take.
If someone told you to reduce your emissions but then got in a Dodge Hellcat or some other 5mpg car or a private jet you'd tell them to eff off and rightly so.
People listen to experts on matters of science i.e. people with knowledge and credibility, not never-have-beens like these two who demonstrably know nothing about climate and visibly don't care about it. What worth is there in such an empty gesture? You surely don't genuinely think that people are actually changing their views on climate because of these publicity seeking, oxygen thieving, self promoting,  out of touch, demonstrably stupid  sub humans?

Everything they do is about feathering their own nest and everything they say is in direct contradiction to what they actually do. It wasn't so long ago they were saying "We won't live in America as long as Trump is President" and "We just want a private life" now they live in America and have signed TV deals about their lives, so who is going to listen to their transparent bandwagon jumping on climate change? No one with a brain.

I'm sure not even you think any of your waffle is true.

[JuliusHMarx]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

What exactly needs fleshing out?

If you're going about your everyday life oblivious to the problems in the world and then suddenly change your ways because of a statement made by Prince Harry then frankly you're an imbecile.

Loads of people are imbeciles - as super_r keeps reminding us. Perhaps those are Harry's target audience. And if, despite his own hypocrisy, some of those imbeciles change their behaviour for the better, then overall isn't that a net positive effect? Unless of course, a bunch of other imbeciles do the exact opposite just to spite the hypocrisy.

[Soul Requiem]

You seem to move the goalposts the moment your previous line of banality fails. It's a thing, it's neither good or bad but does suggest there are bigger issues at play and to be honest they'll be taking on board a false message.

[beninho]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

What exactly needs fleshing out?

If you're going about your everyday life oblivious to the problems in the world and then suddenly change your ways because of a statement made by Prince Harry then frankly you're an imbecile.

Loads of people are imbeciles - as super_r keeps reminding us. Perhaps those are Harry's target audience. And if, despite his own hypocrisy, some of those imbeciles change their behaviour for the better, then overall isn't that a net positive effect? Unless of course, a bunch of other imbeciles do the exact opposite just to spite the hypocrisy.

At least soneone else gets the point.

[super_realist]

If you need a celebrity to tell you the way to live your life then that says everything about you.

OK, thanks for your response. A bit Pointless though. Not really fleshed out your statements.

What exactly needs fleshing out?

If you're going about your everyday life oblivious to the problems in the world and then suddenly change your ways because of a statement made by Prince Harry then frankly you're an imbecile.

Kinell  you are hard work. Not keen on answering the questions. Anyway, I'll try again. Even if they are an imbeciles, if they take on board something they have heard from a celebrity, on climate changeis that not a good thing?

WHO IS TAKING ON BOARD ANYTHING FROM THEN? That's the point. Do you know anyone who is changing their views on climate because of these two self unaware simpletons? There are plenty of "celebrities" who are a far more credible face of protest movements who put a message across without being colossal hypocrites and can you name any campaign which was more successful with hypocrites fronting it? No.

I haven't heard anyone do anything but ridicule these two. They cannot do anything right because they are simply too stupid, too self absorbed and have zero grasp on reality. Take when they went to Africa for example before they left the Royals, they were in some incredibly poor areas with massive amounts of death and suffering yet the monumentally egotistical Meghan was moaning that "no one asks how I'm feeling" They aren't a couple that anyone is taking advice from, they are a couple that people are laughing at, and yet you think they have a message worth listening to? Well sorry, I don't see anyone listening to them when there are people with more influence and more credibility around who are better at it and who crucially have more respect from the public.

It would be akin to taking diet advice from Shane Lowry, you just wouldn't.

[beninho]

You seem to move the goalposts the moment your previous line of banality fails. It's a thing, it's neither good or bad but does suggest there are bigger issues at play and to be honest they'll be taking on board a false message.

Goalposts not moved. You just ignored the question.

Neither good or bad, thats such a I play with my 2inch cock answer. You don't think it could be good that people may get a better understanding of climate change and/or other issues after hearing a celebrity talk about it?

[super_realist]

If anyone thinks, I dont care about climate change because meghan and Harry or anyone else saying something is a hypocrite. Well, then that person is clearly an idiot.

Nobody says you don't care about it because of what they say, but I cannot see how anyone is going to take the advice of anyone who is not living by the standards they are imploring others to take.
If someone told you to reduce your emissions but then got in a Dodge Hellcat or some other 5mpg car or a private jet you'd tell them to eff off and rightly so.
People listen to experts on matters of science i.e. people with knowledge and credibility, not never-have-beens like these two who demonstrably know nothing about climate and visibly don't care about it. What worth is there in such an empty gesture? You surely don't genuinely think that people are actually changing their views on climate because of these publicity seeking, oxygen thieving, self promoting,  out of touch, demonstrably stupid  sub humans?

Everything they do is about feathering their own nest and everything they say is in direct contradiction to what they actually do. It wasn't so long ago they were saying "We won't live in America as long as Trump is President" and "We just want a private life" now they live in America and have signed TV deals about their lives, so who is going to listen to their transparent bandwagon jumping on climate change? No one with a brain.

I'm sure not even you think any of your waffle is true.

What a pathetic response. Can you name anyone who has been influenced by their views on climate? Can you? I thought not.

[super_realist]

You seem to move the goalposts the moment your previous line of banality fails. It's a thing, it's neither good or bad but does suggest there are bigger issues at play and to be honest they'll be taking on board a false message.

Goalposts not moved. You just ignored the question.

Neither good or bad, thats such a I play with my 2inch man sausage answer. You don't think it could be good that people may get a better understanding of climate change and/or other issues after hearing a celebrity talk about it?

The evidence about climate change is the evidence. It does actually matter from whose mouth it comes if you are hoping to influence people. If it comes from a hypocrite then people see straight through that. You wouldn't take advice from non experts on anything else in your life, so why take their advice on something they don't even believe in?

Still waiting on the names of anyone who has changed their behaviour due to these two.

[Soul Requiem]

You seem to move the goalposts the moment your previous line of banality fails. It's a thing, it's neither good or bad but does suggest there are bigger issues at play and to be honest they'll be taking on board a false message.

Goalposts not moved. You just ignored the question.

Neither good or bad, thats such a I play with my 2inch man sausage answer. You don't think it could be good that people may get a better understanding of climate change and/or other issues after hearing a celebrity talk about it?

It depends on the celebrity and what they do about it themselves; David Attenborough and the shows he fronts will have a reasonably high carbon footprint but he's talking with knowledge about the situation and is able to get his point across thusly. If you need Prince Harry to tell you about climate change what other information are you getting from elsewhere or is all information good information? We'll ignore the potential damage done elsewhere.

[JuliusHMarx]

S_r, Harry and Meghan have changed your behaviour, and are getting you to spend your time talking about them. It's entirely possible they may change other people's in different ways, especially those who are royalists or fans of them - and there are actually many of those out there.

[super_realist]

I disagree, Attenborough is a Naturalist, he's not a climate scientist, so I don't care what his views on Climate Change are really. He does at least admit he's a hypocrite though, which is a decent start, although he claims to be a "vegetarian" but eats fish and chicken, so not a vegetarian at all.
Likewise I'm not going to listen to a Swedish child with zero expertise.

[JuliusHMarx]

OK I give in. Who's Shane Lowry?

[super_realist]

OK I give in. Who's Shane Lowry?

An (borderline) obese Irish golfer.

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