The Wales squad - Scotland, Autumn Nations Cup, and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Wayne Pivac will announce the squad on October 6th, likely to be a Scarlet-heavy selection and rightly so. I would also like to see new players come in so we can see what they have to offer. 

Wales might play France on October 24th in warm-up, but there is currently some doubt on whether this will go ahead. Next up is the re-arranged 6N match with Scotland on October 31st. In the autumn nations cup Wales will face-off against Ireland, England, Georgia and either France, Fiji, Italy or Scotland. 

Venues to be announced.

Wales squad

Forwards: Rhys Carre (Cardiff Bues), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Rhodri Jones (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons) Ryan Elias (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Leon Brown (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Will Rowlands (Wasps), Cory Hill (Cardiff Blues), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Taulupe Faletau (Bath), Josh MacLeod (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Backs: Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues), Kieran Hardy (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears), Jarrod Evans (Cardiff Blues), Johnny Williams (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Nick Tompkins (Dragons), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), George North (Ospreys), Josh Adams (Cardiff Blues), Hallam Amos (Cardiff Blues), Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

Pivac is getting desperate with the Lydaite recall. I really don't think he is needed. Roberts would have been useful outside Jarrod Evans I reckon...

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales squad

Forwards: Rhys Carre (Cardiff Bues), Wyn Jones (Scarlets), Rhodri Jones (Ospreys), Elliot Dee (Dragons) Ryan Elias (Scarlets), Ken Owens (Scarlets), Leon Brown (Dragons), Tomas Francis (Exeter Chiefs), Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Blues), Jake Ball (Scarlets), Adam Beard (Ospreys), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Will Rowlands (Wasps), Cory Hill (Cardiff Blues), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Josh Navidi (Cardiff Blues), Aaron Wainwright (Dragons), Taulupe Faletau (Bath), Josh MacLeod (Scarlets), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).

Backs: Gareth Davies (Scarlets), Tomos Williams (Cardiff Blues), Kieran Hardy (Scarlets), Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints), Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears), Jarrod Evans (Cardiff Blues), Johnny Williams (Scarlets), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Nick Tompkins (Dragons), Owen Watkin (Ospreys), George North (Ospreys), Josh Adams (Cardiff Blues), Hallam Amos (Cardiff Blues), Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester), Leigh Halfpenny (Scarlets), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

Pivac is getting desperate with the Lydaite recall. I really don't think he is needed. Roberts would have been useful outside Jarrod Evans I reckon...

Or he's assigning value to performing well within the regional game.

Rhodri Jones is not a player I have seen much of since he has been at the Ospreys, or since the Gatland experiment of him as a tighthead went out the window. Other than that, it's a squad I really like.

Aside from Lydiate anything actually controversial there? Who's missed out to get him a spot?

I guess you could argue all day about who the first 3 choice scrum halves should be on any given weekend, but thats not a bad problem to have.

Who would miss out to get Roberts in?

Shane Lewis-Hughes was the man who played a lot at 6 in the Autumn, along with James Botham. Both did well, but didn't look spectacular.

With Roberts, I guess it would be Watkin, or maybe Tompkins.

As a more forward looking selection, whilst also factoring form you could make a very strong case for Harrison Keddie of Dragons to be selected over Lydiate.

To be honest with Rhodri Jones, I would've expected Smith as the loosehead if you were taking one from Os. I guess I haven't paid too much attention to who has been playing 1.

Sorry Chris, I don't quite follow what you are saying? If you're suggesting that Lydiate has been on top form then we'll have to disagree. He's just been... well, Lydiate. Ospreys have been meh, despite the continued improvement (about time). Given our back-row options I don't see the need. Of the three mentioned (Lydiate, RP, Roberts), Roberts had the most worth. I doubt anyone can knock his form and keep a straight face.

For me the 'contraversial' picks are Rhodri Jones, Ryan Elias, Dillon Lewis - would there be a worse front-row in world rugby? Sorry if that hurts your feelings miaow #notsorry. I'm not sure why he's excluded Rhys Webb, is he a long-term casualty? I assume so as he hadn't featured in recent games (when has that stopped Pivac anyway). If not then it doesn't make sense to include Hardy over him - when his international form was a bit shaky. Hardy will be a good international 9 for sure, but when you have Davies and Williams then you should probably include someone like Webb. I agree with Beard being recalled, but we need to pair him with Rowlands and/or Hill.

There also seems to be a host of injured players, again. Did Pivac not learn from this? If Navidi is fit then he should be one of the first names on the team-sheet, but he hasn't played so that's a question mark.

To get Roberts in, Tompkins or Watkin would have missed out for me. Probably Watkin if Tompkins is considered a 13, one that can't defend might I add. If you want a skillful player to replace JD2 then we should probably look at Kieran Williams, although to my knowledge he is yet to feature at 13 as some folks believe he is Scott Gibbs .

Risca - only one of those LH's can scrum and it isn't Rhodri Jones. Whilst Smith is smaller he certainly isn't weaker - he's probably stronger. I suppose we can expect a few driving lineouts, but not if Elias is starting as he will mis-throw .

chris_501 wrote:Shane Lewis-Hughes was the man who played a lot at 6 in the Autumn, along with James Botham. Both did well, but didn't look spectacular.

With Roberts, I guess it would be Watkin, or maybe Tompkins.

Both guys for the future, and they did pretty well considering. One observation I took was that they need to bulk up. Admittedly, both selections didn't make a lot of sense to me at the time, but that's Pivac for you.

Agree with that.

I don't have Premier Sports, so I caught what I could of the derbies on S4C, and you're right, Lydiate did what he does well. I haven't seen enough of him, but have read he's been playing some of his best rugby. And bringing in a player with excellent defence can also be a good thing, as well as leadership qualities.

My point was, that Gatland often disregarded performances at the regions, for what he'd seen internationally or in training (quite often getting it right). However it did seem to create a view that if your face didn't fit, no matter how well you played for your region, you wouldn't get picked.

No Halaholo?

Im a bit surprised Ioan Lloyd wasn’t picked if Pivac said it was a ‘squad picked on form’ is there welsh wing in better form right now?
Definitely one for the future, I reckon he is the best of the lot right now.

chris_501 wrote:I don't have Premier Sports, so I caught what I could of the derbies on S4C, and you're right, Lydiate did what he does well. I haven't seen enough of him, but have read he's been playing some of his best rugby. And bringing in a player with excellent defence can also be a good thing, as well as leadership qualities.

My point was, that Gatland often disregarded performances at the regions, for what he'd seen internationally or in training (quite often getting it right). However it did seem to create a view that if your face didn't fit, no matter how well you played for your region, you wouldn't get picked.

Honestly, I don't see the fuss. It doesn't make sense Will Griffiths has been preferred at 6. I've been impressed with him and Rhys Davies actually. I wouldn't read too much into it, the same people have been clamouring for Rhys Priestland. He plays alright but it's not international quality, and a lot of Bath fans have whinged about his appointment since day 1.

Yeah that's true, it happened. The players weren't match fit compared to the English and Irish back then. I believe it has improved a little now but that was my understanding, that Gatland had to spend time getting them up to speed to play the game he wanted. I think that was why he sometimes disregarded regional form with particular players, sometimes it backfired.

I thought Halaholo might have been in so we can tie him to Wales, that's what usually happens. He's better than Watkin as well, far better. Halaholo hasn't had a great amount of game time although it has been a lot more than some of the other squad members. Must be another Pivac-riddle.

Lloyd is a good shout. Very good player at age 18/19. His versatility might work against him, but I suppose he could be a good winger too - he's looked like Kolbe when playing there.

Just realised Parry is missing too. If he isn't a long-term casualty then he's very unlucky to not be in over Elias.

Hallam Amos?

mikey_dragon wrote:I thought Halaholo might have been in so we can tie him to Wales, that's what usually happens. He's better than Watkin as well, far better. Halaholo hasn't had a great amount of game time although it has been a lot more than some of the other squad members. Must be another Pivac-riddle.

Lloyd is a good shout. Very good player at age 18/19. His versatility might work against him, but I suppose he could be a good winger too - he's looked like Kolbe when playing there.

Just realised Parry is missing too. If he isn't a long-term casualty then he's very unlucky to not be in over Elias.

Hallam Amos?

I was very surprised to see him not involved. Classy player who would be a great addition to the Welsh midfield.

Amos is a bit of a surprise for me, as they have sufficient full back cover in Halfpenny and Williams (despite him missing the first game). I guess it would've been between him and Holmes, if Holmes wasn't currently ruled out.

Parry, I probably would've expected to be selected. It was always going to be his two Scarlets hookers, but it's strange how he is flip flopping between Dee and Parry.

Lloyd obviously had a bit of a defensive nightmare in the Autumn, so I guess that works against him. Halaholo is a bit surprising because he is a bit of a different centre to the others, but I guess Pivac is going to largely stick to what he knows for a tournament.

I am just waiting on my betting app to tell me the odds on a Welsh 5th place finish

Yep the latest selections just reiterate, at least to me, that Pivac isn't right for the role. I no longer look forward to watching the international games, and it seems to be that way for a lot of other fans.

We are mostly looking at those players who would be the 2nd or 3rd picks in their position though. If everybody was fit in that squad, would WG John, Parry, Lewis-Hughes, Halaholo or Lloyd be starters? For me that suggests that Pivac has done a pretty good job on selection.

I'm not even sure what the best team is any more - but John over Lewis, Parry over Elias, Halaholo over Watkin are just no-brainers for me. I don't mind if Lloyd isn't there as technically he is still a youth player, and rushing them in can sometimes have bad consequences, but again he does look a bit better than Amos.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not even sure what the best team is any more - but John over Lewis, Parry over Elias, Halaholo over Watkin are just no-brainers for me. I don't mind if Lloyd isn't there as technically he is still a youth player, and rushing them in can sometimes have bad consequences, but again he does look a bit better than Amos.

I'm with you on John over Lewis, unfortunately he looks like becoming the new Scott Andrews. There is obviously something coaches see in Elias, and if he can tighten up his throwing in, then he has the game around the park to make a big difference. Parry was a bit like SLH or Botham, he did ok in the Autumn, but I saw nothing that suggested to me he was a key player in the making. He is scoring a lot of tries mind you!

Amos is so often the nearly man, he had games for the Dragons when he made it look so easy, then appeared to force things when he got his chance at international level.

Not sure I would compare John to Andrews... Folk in the Premiership rate him, and he’s a beast. It must have been disheartening (to say the least) seeing someone who can’t scrum (Lewis) get picked ahead of you. From what I understand he’s injured anyway, I saw him limp off the last time I watched Sale play. Unless I misunderstood you and you were saying Lewis is Scott Andrews? Jeez imagine having both those in your team...

First and foremost a hooker needs to get his darts. We seen across 4 or 5 games that Elias can’t do it; I’m not sure how much more proof a coach needs? Not that I’m championing Dee but surely Elias has played his way out for now. If it continues then it’s only a matter of time before the public turn on him the way they did with Priestland and Cuthbert. Parry isn’t world class but he isn’t doing anything wrong either.

It seems Owens might now be our most important player.

Yes I meant Lewis reminds me of Andrews.

chris_501 wrote:Yes I meant Lewis reminds me of Andrews.

Yeah neither can do their primary job, scrum. It's amazing how Andrews has a career.

Gethin Jenkins being sworn in as defence coach.

Careful the ref doesn't hear, he'll get banned

Just realised he hasn’t picked McNicholl, after seeing the two teams for tonight. Good to see Ball, Navidi and Owens involved though.

Has Miaow registered yet another account just to dislike all Mikeys posts? He needs more help than Pivac

Gooseberry wrote:Has Miaow registered yet another account just to dislike all Mikeys posts? He needs more help than Pivac

Yep. Imagine thinking you can get one over on someone by doing that, by creating a new account to do it and hiding in the background; just for a moment imagine being that guy/girl .

RiscaGame wrote:Just realised he hasn’t picked McNicholl, after seeing the two teams for tonight. Good to see Ball, Navidi and Owens involved though.

It's his first game back, but it's not like that has stopped Pivac with other faces that fit.

Fans of Wales' opposition might want to tune into Scarlets vs Blues, a lot of our players are on display.

Gooseberry wrote:Has Miaow registered yet another account just to dislike all Mikeys posts? He needs more help than Pivac

Parry and Webb not in, and Elias being in this squad is a disgrace. Parry might even be the ones to succeed Owens albeit for a short-ish period as he is 29.

So what are your thoughts on the match day 23? I imagine AWJ will start and be captain, but for 2nd row I would only select from Rowlands, Ball and Beard. That will help us try and get set piece advantage.

mikey_dragon wrote:Parry and Webb not in, and Elias being in this squad is a disgrace. Parry might even be the ones to succeed Owens albeit for a short-ish period as he is 29.

So what are your thoughts on the match day 23? I imagine AWJ will start and be captain, but for 2nd row I would only select from Rowlands, Ball and Beard. That will help us try and get set piece advantage.

From the outside looking in I'd presume you'd go with something like;

1. Wyn Jones
2. Owens
3. Francis
4. Rowlands
5. AWJ
6. Navidi
7. Tipuric
8. Falatau
9. Gareth Davies
10. Biggar
11. Adams
12. Johnny Williams
13. JD2
14. Liam Williams
15. Halfpenny

Moving Williams to 15 and LRZ to wing would be more entertaining but a head coach under pressure will probably go for the safe option.

I think he’ll do that too Sam, it’s something has never worked for him. Too many off form players there. He’s left out a few livewires who could make a difference; Parry, Webb, Lloyd. The squad and staff needs new guys; by that I don’t mean Lydiate and Rhodri Jones.

Whilst I agree that we need some players to come back in and start, like Ken Owens, I don’t agree with some others. I’ll put out what I think Predictable Pivac is likely to pick, and then what I would pick.

2nd row will probably be AWJ and Ball. I would pick Ball and Rowlands.

9 and 10 will be Davies and Biggar. I would select Tomos Williams and Jarrod Evans, that would shake things up.

Back-row will be Lydiate, Tipuric, Faletau. Given the squad and players availability that’s actually not a bad combination, but certainly isn’t Wales’ best. If it was then Lydiate and Tips would have done it for Ospreys when it mattered earlier in the season. Even Toby Booth has realised the worth of putting a lock forward to blindside.

Back 3 will be North, Adams, Halfpenny. This is perhaps the best available, LRZ is not too far off.

I’m unsure about the rest but it’s likely to be the same old. If the midfield is Williams and Davies then they really need to step up. Parry, AWJ, Webb and Biggar would be good options to come off the bench IMO, but that’s not going to happen.

I didn’t want to rush AWJ, but we should really start planning for having to replace Jake Ball first. Of course, because of the pressure Pivac is under, he will probably go for both.

LRZ is probably now closer to overtaking Adams. Didn’t think that would happen, but North is looking sharp again.

Evans has been having a bit of a panning by Cardiff fans, that I’ve seen. I worry about Davies, after seeing the Scarlets v Cardiff game. Trouble is, Tompkins is even worse defensively recently and I wouldn’t be sure about Watkin at 13.

It was inevitable that Adams' form was going to take a little dip after such a great couple of years, 2020 wasn't his best and he isn't looking quite as sharp so far this year either. The positive is that we could field 4 wingers from North, Adams, LRZ and Liam Williams and I would be happy with all of them. Throw in McNicholl, Hewitt, Lane, Conbeer and Stef Evans all pushing for squad places and it looks like a real area of strength.

The same cannot be said for centre, I feel we are hoping that the players selected there will find some form rather than starting in form. Might we see North start?

With regards to second row, I would go with whoever Pivac sees as the best 2 currently, if that is Ball and AWJ then so be it. Bear, Rowlands and Hill have all had good exposure to international rugby, so it's not like when Ball leaves then we'll have to field a novice. I always think that a second row coming back from injury is easier than say a half back to find a rhythm, you just have to push a bit in the scrum, smash into a few rucks, make a few tackles and catch at the lineout!

chris_501 wrote:I always think that a second row coming back from injury is easier than say a half back to find a rhythm, you just have to push a bit in the scrum, smash into a few rucks, make a few tackles and catch at the lineout!

As a second row myself, I take issue with this

One of the young Welsh players tipped to have a bright future Carwyn Tuipulotu, has been named on the bench for the Scarlets tomorrow evening for their clash against Leinster, Sam Costellow is starting for the Welsh region.

Good to see somebody from Team Wales, talk about putting smiles on faces again. That was a successful ploy in the Autumn.

What a disaster it would be if Elias were to make the 23. Even the Scarlets third/fourth choice were able to get the lineout throwing right on the weekend.

So who are we looking at to partner AWJ in the 2nd row? Who plays at 6? What will be our halfback pairing and who misses out in the back 3?

The 3 locks are likely to be AWJ, Ball / Rowlands. I probably wouldn't select AWJ but maybe have him on the bench as I think it's time he was phased out. Morgan Jones and Rhys Davies will probably come in next year. The rest of the positions are anyone's guess, hapless Pivac will be too conservative when the team needs quite the change-up. The bench will be just as bad if it features Elias, Jones and Lewis.

Locks will be AWJ/Ball
Backrow Lydiate/Tipuric/Faletau
10 definitely Biggar. 9, not 100% but I reckon he will pick Davies.
Back 3 Adams, North, 1/2P

Just noticed that's the same as Mikey's post from a week or so ago

mikey_dragon wrote:What a disaster it would be if Elias were to make the 23. Even the Scarlets third/fourth choice were able to get the lineout throwing right on the weekend.

His stats around the field - carries, dominant tackles, turnovers - are very good, among the best in the league, but a hooker's always going to be judged on his throwing. It's fundamentally important. I remember a Wales - England match (quite a few years ago now), and in the second half we could barely get into England's half. On the few occasions we did, Hibbard missed his man. I don't think he played many more Tests. It's not just that you can't launch attacks off your own ball with any consistency, it also means the opposition will happily kick for territory and pick you off.

RiscaGame wrote:Locks will be AWJ/Ball
Backrow Lydiate/Tipuric/Faletau
10 definitely Biggar. 9, not 100% but I reckon he will pick Davies.
Back 3 Adams, North, 1/2P

Just noticed that's the same as Mikey's post from a week or so ago

Next to no changes in that for how many years?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:What a disaster it would be if Elias were to make the 23. Even the Scarlets third/fourth choice were able to get the lineout throwing right on the weekend.

His stats around the field - carries, dominant tackles, turnovers - are very good, among the best in the league, but a hooker's always going to be judged on his throwing. It's fundamentally important. I remember a Wales - England match (quite a few years ago now), and in the second half we could barely get into England's half. On the few occasions we did, Hibbard missed his man. I don't think he played many more Tests. It's not just that you can't launch attacks off your own ball with any consistency, it also means the opposition will happily kick for territory and pick you off.

Looks like Parry is good at all that too. To be fair I already knew Elias was good at that just from watching, same for Dillon Lewis. But if you can’t do your primary job then you can’t be in the team. Elias’ throwing has been shockingly bad for too long, the game against Cardiff being the pinnacle, it made literally everyone stand up and take note.

Adams breaches Covid protocols and will miss first two games.

Oh my word. That is crazy. If it’s one thing the management did right was make clear their stance about the protocols. There must be more to it, surely?

Just read about it. So dull.

Trying to say it was a milestone event for the family, but it seems like it was a gender reveal party.

Possibly lucky to come back into the squad after the Scotland game.

LRZ to start then, surely.

Lacks a little detail but it sounds like he joined back up with the squad before being found out and suspended? Does that put the Ireland game in doubt with Ireland the winners?

He trained with the squad on their first day back, on Tuesday and that’s when it came out.

He is still going to train with the squad again from Monday, just not be selected for Scotland next either. He may struggle to get back into the side, if LRZ goes well and with Liam Williams to come back.

But a gender reveal party FFS. Compared to the sacrifice Jake Ball made in the Autumn.