WHS and all that jazz!

First topic message reminder :

You asked and I delivered. Here we can discuss all things World Handicap System. Like it or not, it comes into effect on Monday November 2nd so we’re going to have to get used to Handicap Index, Course Handicap, Playing Handicap, Slope Rating, Course Ratings and everything in between

Same for us, social golf only until competitive golf starts on 26th April. Tees are fully booked, will be interesting to see if members submit General Play scores in the four weeks up to then.

Think I might be about to go through a more "turbulent" handicap index phase.

Currently 4.2 my 20th & 19th oldest scores are 73 & 74 respectively. So unless I shoot similar over the next 2 rounds I think my handicap could take a sharp turn north.

I hear a lot of people whinging about the new system (mainly because they cant get their heads round it and the effective difference between the old and new systems). In many ways I quite like it, not least because gone is that nonsense thinking I used to get in my head around 15th/16th ("Right I need 3 pars for the buffer" or "if i hold it together maybe birdie one of the last three I can get a decent cut" or "I wonder what the CSS will be, maybe a cut /buffer is still on") I simply won't feel the need to do that during a round now...just on the Friday before dropping a good score :-p

On a tangential note, as I mentioned on another thread, our club is using the Intelligent Golf app. The thing I like about this, is the fact that you don't have to worry about what 95% of 16.3 is or how many points you get (stableford) or how many strokes you give to your opponent in matchplay - just play the game and let the app sort it out.

JAS wrote:Think I might be about to go through a more "turbulent" handicap index phase.

Currently 4.2 my 20th & 19th oldest scores are 73 & 74 respectively. So unless I shoot similar over the next 2 rounds I think my handicap could take a sharp turn north.

I hear a lot of people whinging about the new system (mainly because they cant get their heads round it and the effective difference between the old and new systems). In many ways I quite like it, not least because gone is that nonsense thinking I used to get in my head around 15th/16th ("Right I need 3 pars for the buffer" or "if i hold it together maybe birdie one of the last three I can get a decent cut" or "I wonder what the CSS will be, maybe a cut /buffer is still on") I simply won't feel the need to do that during a round now...just on the Friday before dropping a good score :-p

Very similar to you, although a much higher handicap , but I am about to lose a couple of low scores to be replaced, almost certainly, with higher ones. But the thing I like about it is that it represents the crap golf I’m playing now rather than one good round I had in 2019 before injury curtailed much of my competitive golf last year!

Well this weekend saw me record my 20th score since golf restarted on 29th March. I'm fortunate to be retired and a member of two golf clubs. That means of course, that my handicap is completely based on my golfing performance since the 29th March and all my good scoring last summer and previously, now contributes to absolutely nothing!
April was the coldest for 60 years, combined with a raw easterly wind that robustly blew through my course on the Suffolk coast, all added up to conditions that were difficult for decent scoring. I was 5.4 Handicap Index at the restart playing 6 and I am now 7.9 playing 9. Despite that I am a fan of the new handicap system, in the long run I think it will make things a lot fairer for all. Looking forward to the summer and easier scoring conditions when (hopefully!) a few good rounds will see my handicap reduce back down.

BlueCoverman wrote:Well this weekend saw me record my 20th score since golf restarted on 29th March. I'm fortunate to be retired and a member of two golf clubs. That means of course, that my handicap is completely based on my golfing performance since the 29th March and all my good scoring last summer and previously, now contributes to absolutely nothing!
April was the coldest for 60 years, combined with a raw easterly wind that robustly blew through my course on the Suffolk coast, all added up to conditions that were difficult for decent scoring. I was 5.4 Handicap Index at the restart playing 6 and I am now 7.9 playing 9. Despite that I am a fan of the new handicap system, in the long run I think it will make things a lot fairer for all. Looking forward to the summer and easier scoring conditions when (hopefully!) a few good rounds will see my handicap reduce back down.  

Actually I've held up probably better than expected although to be fair I'm NOWHERE near 20 qualifiers since the 29th March - that's seriously good going Blue!! Whilst it has been cold and a lot of non prevailing wind, the flip side of that is that the grass (rough) hasn't grown anything like it normally would, so there is an element of swings and roundabouts.

I started at 4.6 and am currently 4.4 although my 20th oldest score is a 73. Would have dropped it Sat but the comp was initially suspended then abandoned so I still have my 73.

One question that did come up though...if the comp had gone ahead it would almost certainly have been R/O in old money so...what is the new WHS equivalent of R/O?. Yes I know there is a PCC which is kind of the equivalent of CSS but what is the PCC equivalent of CSS +3 R/O? Does it mean, the round isn't counted as one of your 20 (unless you broke net par+PCC)?  I remember a weekend down in Devon a good few years ago I played a 36 hole medal over 2 days at RND then a 36 holer at Saunton so 4 rounds in 3 days and ALL of them were R/O. So in effect if R/O is no longer a thing and not factored into your last 20 scores, a similar weekend under the new system would mean that for a while my handicap  would only reflect best 8 of my last 16 rather than 8 of my last 20. Anybody came across what happens in these instances?

Good question JAS, one to which I don't know the answer. If I had to guess I would say the round would still count as one of your 20, irrespective of the fact that it would have been reductions only under the old system.

BlueCoverman wrote:Good question JAS, one to which I don't know the answer. If I had to guess I would say the round would still count as one of your 20, irrespective of the fact that it would have been reductions only under the old system.

Actually had to change it slightly I meant "best 8 of my last 16 rather than best 8 of my last 20"

I'd guess similar to yourself Blue, more than likely because it would be a bit of a curveball to throw at the IT system administering handicaps. Rather than try to program for all eventualities Id guess Congu would find it a lot easier just to say... "Tough...we spent years arriving at best 8 of 20, don't go spoiling our delicate calculations by playing in awful conditions" :-p

Ultimately I think the net result of that may discourage more people somewhat from playing on "tough days"

I agree that is likely to be the case, competitors will be fewer on "tough days"

If this helps, if all the scores recorded over the day - competition and General Play - are poor, then the PCC can be as much as +3 for everyone as has happened to us once this year so far. If they are all excellent, it can go to -1 and that’s for everyone. No such thing as R/O any more, but it you’re lucky enough for it not to be one of your 20 scores, then won’t affect your handicap. And don’t forget WHS scores can go back to January 2018 to take account of the lack of golf played during 2020. It should have been 2 years prior to November 2020 but some wiggle room was allowed.

LadyPutt wrote:If this helps, if all the scores recorded over the day - competition and General Play - are poor, then the PCC can be as much as +3 for everyone as has happened to us once this year so far. If they are all excellent, it can go to -1 and that’s for everyone. No such thing as R/O any more, but it you’re lucky enough for it not to be one of your 20 scores, then won’t affect your handicap. And don’t forget WHS scores can go back to January 2018 to take account of the lack of golf played during 2020. It should have been 2 years prior to November 2020 but some wiggle room was allowed.

Hi Ladyputt, yep in that particular aspect PCC and CSS are pretty much identical. It's the taking away of R/O that I don't think they've really thought about enough. I suppose the further question could be...if the conditions are so bad could it be made a non qualifier?

What I'm getting at is the best 8 of 20 is a formula arrived at after a LOT of research and analysis of scoring. I typically play 30-35 qualifiers a year so my last 20 will be over a period of a few months, by definition if you're likely to have 8 decent rounds that reflect your handicap and 12 that don't, by playing on several (old money) R/O type days you're filling up your allocation of 12 not so good days with impossible scoring conditions then the 8/20 rule begins to become somewhat distorted, your handicap could drift uncharacteristically higher than your 8/20 based norm. i.e your handicap is effectively your average of the best 2/5ths of your golf but if you throw in 4 R/O type days then it changes to 8/16 so half. In other words that would be like taking your best 10 scores from 20 rather than your best 8. To me that's the basis on which there SHOULD still be the concept of an RO.

Rules question here folks relating to No Return and No Score.
Very wet day today at our course. We were called off twice due to lightning etc. A lot of players gave up. It was a team game, but we still used the IG App. My argument was that players who were leaving should put in NR for all the holes they didn't play. Others argued as they didn't play the holes it should be NS. It might even mean that if one player out of the team didn't return to play the whole team got DQ'd. It was not a qaulifying competiton, it was a team game. (Four ball Alliance). Any solutions people?

I'm never wrong wrote:Rules question here folks relating to No Return and No Score.
Very wet day today at our course. We were called off twice due to lightning etc. A lot of players gave up. It was a team game, but we still used the IG App. My argument was that players who were leaving should put in NR for all the holes they didn't play. Others argued as they didn't play the holes it should be NS. It might even mean that if one player out of the team didn't return to play the whole team got DQ'd.   It was not a qaulifying competiton, it was a team game. (Four ball Alliance). Any solutions people?

For a start, as it was a team game and non-qualifying, why bother using the App? You don’t need it to calculate handicaps, unless you didn’t want to use physical cards and used the App for scoring. In this case I don’t think it matters if you put NS or NR as it won’t, or shouldn’t, calculate handicaps if it had been set up properly. What was the format - Foursomes or 4BBB? Isn’t it in that case matchplay or do the individual scores get added across the season?

The App we use is not just for handicaps. The club is trying to make it easier for the competition organisers (all volunteer members) to run the competitions. If everyone uses and completes a score on their phones or a terminal then they have less work to do. The software can handle all types of competition except Texas Scramble. If everyone inputs their score, even NR, then it works. When people just leave the course without finalising their score, it causes issues as the competition is still "open"
As it turned out about 50% of the teams were disqualified for people not entering their scores.
It was just a technical question whether NR or NS was correct.
The format was a four ball alliance. 2 players score on par 5's, 3 on par 4's and all 4 players on par 3's. Stableford. Par score on our course would be 112. Winners came in with 125 helped by a 20 handicapper scoring 48 points.

I had an awful round over the weekend and have had 0.5 added to the handicap! To be honest I havent paid much attention to the new system, but surprised to see that much of a change for 1 round.

incontinentia wrote:I had an awful round over the weekend and have had 0.5 added to the handicap! To be honest I havent paid much attention to the new system, but surprised to see that much of a change for 1 round.

You need to look at your record (should be on EG app if that’s what you use) and see which score out of your 8 it replaced - it should be highlighted in yellow. That will probably explain it. If a poor round replaces a good one then, to reflect your current playing ability, it will go up. That’s how it works,

And it also works in a different way. A mate of mine scored 37 stableford points in a qualifier and his handicap went UP as the score knocked out his 20th score which was even better.

I'm never wrong wrote:And it also works in a different way. A mate of mine scored 37 stableford points in a qualifier and his handicap went UP as the score knocked out his 20th score which was even better.

That 20th score must have been one of his 8 best which is why it changed. The low score would probably have been a couple of years ago and even with the recent 37 points, not reflective of his current playing ability.

Well today I played golf. That's is fairly unremarkable I agree. However today was my 100th round recorded on the WHS system, since we came out of the third lockdown on March 29th. I can only recommend this retirement malarkey!...

Has anyone actually managed a lower handicap than the one they started with at WHS Inception?

BlueCoverman wrote:Has anyone actually managed a lower handicap than the one they started with at WHS Inception?

I have gone down and then up since its inception. Just as a result of my state of play. Some good rounds and some bad.

My experience is that nearly all now have a higher handicap than at inception. My last 20 scores are from mid-November, so very difficult to maintain your handicap at this time of year.

Agreed. Although keeping your handicap it is somewhat compensated by the fact that we have preferred lies on the fairway at the moment.

BlueCoverman wrote:My experience is that nearly all now have a higher handicap than at inception. My last 20 scores are from mid-November, so very difficult to maintain your handicap at this time of year.

Really, im seeing the complete opposite as people can pick and choose the conditions to out a card in.

There's bigger fluctuations from what I've seen, a couple of guys I know who were steady 3/4 handicappers suddenly went down to scratch/1 after a run of good scores in a short period of time, a lot of these scores being general play scores rather than competition scores.

Conversely I also know a few guys who were just about hanging on to their handicap but have gone up quickly. It very much bases handicap on current form now hence the bigger fluctuations, and these can be magnified by someone playing multiple counting rounds in a short period of time.

super_realist wrote:

BlueCoverman wrote:My experience is that nearly all now have a higher handicap than at inception. My last 20 scores are from mid-November, so very difficult to maintain your handicap at this time of year.

Really, im seeing the complete opposite as people can pick and choose the conditions to out a card in.

And there is one of the main issues clouding the new system. If people pick and choose the conditions rather than record every score, surely it defeats the object?

BlueCoverman wrote:Has anyone actually managed a lower handicap than the one they started with at WHS Inception?

I’d thought the same Blue…virtually everyone I know, apart from the exceptional players with + handicaps, has gone up.

I didn’t play last year but mine went up from 1.3 to 3.6. At least the last time I checked anyway!

I’m with Ralph on this one in terms of there’s DEFINITELY more fluctuation. I consider myself pretty much a 6 handicapper, in the old system I’d tickle in and out of 5 and maybe a sustained bud run of form might see me trip up to 7 in the last 5-6 years of the Old system my lowest was 4.2 and highest 7.4. In the new system I’ve pretty much been 5 most of the time but as low as 2.8 (3) and as high as 5.2 (which is playing 6 at our place). I know that sounds on the face of it like less of a spread but that’s over a single year not a 6 year period and it’s the speed of fluctuation that takes a bit of getting used to but overall I’d say that I’m probably 1-1.5 lower with the new system…so far.

TM2K wrote:

BlueCoverman wrote:Has anyone actually managed a lower handicap than the one they started with at WHS Inception?

I’d thought the same Blue…virtually everyone I know, apart from the exceptional players with + handicaps, has gone up.

I didn’t play last year but mine went up from 1.3 to 3.6. At least the last time I checked anyway!

The more rounds you play, the more your new HI represents your current playing ability. Remember it is an average of the best 8 differentials from your last 20 rounds. If your best rounds are at the lower end of the 20 and you put in a couple of bad scores, it will knock your handicap up.

I have some sort of online tracker thing. I played today, first game since September. Shot 93, with a 9 2x8s and a 7. It them went down .3 god knows how it works. I had 35 points. Though it does show that for 14 holes I was pretty good!

beninho wrote:I have some sort of online tracker thing. I played today, first game since September. Shot 93, with a 9 2x8s and a 7. It them went down .3  god knows how it works. I had 35 points. Though it does show that for 14 holes I was pretty good!

Your official HI won’t be calculated until after midnight tonight if you submitted your card correctly. You will receive an email confirming it tomorrow. Don’t know what this tracker is you mentioned

https://www.golfshake.com/golfhandicap/

This is what I use, i just put in every round I play, and it tracks them all.

LadyPutt wrote:

TM2K wrote:

BlueCoverman wrote:Has anyone actually managed a lower handicap than the one they started with at WHS Inception?

I’d thought the same Blue…virtually everyone I know, apart from the exceptional players with + handicaps, has gone up.

I didn’t play last year but mine went up from 1.3 to 3.6. At least the last time I checked anyway!

The more rounds you play, the more your new HI represents your current playing ability. Remember it is an average of the best 8 differentials from your last 20 rounds. If your best rounds are at the lower end of the 20 and you put in a couple of bad scores, it will knock your handicap up.

Thanks LP, that’s pretty much in keeping with what a couple of others have said too…not sure anyone is fully clued up just yet but these things take a bit of time to settle in and all will be forgotten before we know it.
I’m starting to step up practicing to get ready for my return as soon as the season’s here and hoping to take advantage of the extra buffer if I can!

Quite a funny quirk of having a limited number of rounds with a guy at our place who’d just got his amateur status back this time last year…posted his first three scores to get started, 2 of them around +1 or 2 and the third was something like -4/5 I think …he was given a handicap of +5.5 and before he could add any more had to play the first round of the big club knockout against a guy who was in his late 70s that’s hardly ever finished a medal round since I joined 14/15 years ago. Ended up giving him just shy of 40 shots!!!

We have a player in our seniors group who had a handicap of 51.6. Thing is, he usually played to it. On Monday he won the Stableford, but not outrageously, with 39 points. Got cut one stroke.

I'm never wrong wrote:We have a player in our seniors group who had a handicap of 51.6. Thing is, he usually played to it. On Monday he won the Stableford, but not outrageously, with 39 points. Got cut one stroke.

That’s hilarious…chopped from 52 to 51 after a good round. I don’t know why but the decimal point and exactness of a handicap such as that always makes me chuckle….like it matters?

Luke Donald was playing a corporate day at my place at the time he was #1 in the world and as it was a friend hosting the day a few of us walked with him as he played 2 holes with each group of four. It was so slow by the 12th, a par 3, he stayed to play just that hole with the last half dozen or so groups before he did a short game clinic. Introducing himself to each group, giving them the yardage and club he was hitting and shaking hands with every one as they came to the tee.
In one group there was an American who was bigger than the Beatles and made Meatloaf look like Bobby Sands….obviously trailing behind his playing partners he waddled up the steps to catch Donald saying, “it’s 187 yardsandbim hitting a 6 iron”. Tubby could quite hear and asked 18-what?!? As deadpan and straight faced you could imagine Luke replied, “does it matter?”
We had to walk into the woods and hide we were laughing so much

I'm never wrong wrote:We have a player in our seniors group who had a handicap of 51.6. Thing is, he usually played to it. On Monday he won the Stableford, but not outrageously, with 39 points. Got cut one stroke.

Just proves that the handicap system works. If the poor chap was still forced to play off 28 he’d never win anything and get demoralised and maybe give up what might be one of his only pleasures left in life. Now he’s got a handicap which reflects his current ability and if he has a good round, he’ll get cut which is what has happened. Hopefully he’ll be encouraged to play more and get gradually cut even more which is what it’s all about. Not everyone is a single figure golfer and higher handicaps encourage those of us not so good to keep playing and maybe even practicing. Everyone else with lower handicaps can also play to their ability and win but obviously didn’t this time.

LadyPutt wrote:

I'm never wrong wrote:We have a player in our seniors group who had a handicap of 51.6. Thing is, he usually played to it. On Monday he won the Stableford, but not outrageously, with 39 points. Got cut one stroke.

Just proves that the handicap system works. If the poor chap was still forced to play off 28 he’d never win anything and get demoralised and maybe give up what might be one of his only pleasures left in life. Now he’s got a handicap which reflects his current ability and if he has a good round, he’ll get cut which is what has happened. Hopefully he’ll be encouraged to play more and get gradually cut even more which is what it’s all about. Not everyone is a single figure golfer and higher handicaps encourage those of us not so good to keep playing and maybe even practicing. Everyone else with lower handicaps can also play to their ability and win but obviously didn’t this time.

Well said

Reviving this topic as I think my comments are where they best sit.
We have a bloke at our club who is well up in refereeing circles (does Majors etc). he's just been told on the QT that the slope rating of courses will be looked at again. Apparently there is enough "data" for a review after a couple of years playing. I'm not sure, but it might be that some courses don't have the correct rating. I think we all know that some courses play easier/harder than others with the same rating.

That's as well as all the local golf organisations having to examine each course regarding gender neutral tees........

I'm never wrong wrote:Reviving this topic as I think my comments are where they best sit.
We have a bloke at our club who is well up in refereeing circles (does Majors etc). he's just been told on the QT that the slope rating of courses will be looked at again. Apparently there is enough "data" for a review after a couple of years playing. I'm not sure, but it might be that some courses don't have the correct rating. I think we all know that some courses play easier/harder than others with the same rating.

That's as well as all the local golf organisations having to examine each course regarding gender neutral tees........

You’re probably right, INW Our course in Scotland was recently re-rated when we has both men’s and ladies tees measured (we are a ladies only club but men can now play GP cards) and it has gone up slightly. Not sure about the other home nations but it will be a big job all round, but I am still convinced that WHS is a good system as all my recent scores have been around the same and it means my HI is correct - at least until a good score from last year drops off!

I'm in general agreement with you LP that WHS is a good system. But allowing general play scores does make it very easy to 'choose your own handicap'. I'm not sure quite how you put a stop to the element in our golfing circles who desire to do just that, but from my experience it definitely seems to be on the increase. As an example my wife and I entered a Betterball Mixed Open last year. She played one of the best rounds of golf I have ever seen her play and I was feeling slightly embarrassed as we recorded a whopping 46 points. I needn't have worried..we came 12th!

BlueCoverman wrote:I'm in general agreement with you LP that WHS is a good system. But allowing general play scores does make it very easy to 'choose your own handicap'. I'm not sure quite how you put a stop to the element in our golfing circles who desire to do just that, but from my experience it definitely seems to be on the increase. As an example my wife and I entered a Betterball Mixed Open last year. She played one of the best rounds of golf I have ever seen her play and I was feeling slightly embarrassed as we recorded a whopping 46 points. I needn't have worried..we came 12th!

Sadly, there've always been people who cheat and fiddle their handicap in order to massage their own egos by 'winning' club handicap comps etc. Nothing is going to stop it as those people aren't suddenly going to disappear.

Interesting point when I was up at Carnoustie, one of the guys who has won the Tassie several times and has several Club champs to his name as well is currently off +6 (he actually touched +8 at one point last year) rumours were circulating that he’s thinking of having a go at the Tour and was trying to secure some invites to some Pro events. Imagine if he got an invite to the Dunhill as an Amateur partner of a pro….he’d have to be giving the pros 6 shots!! (or whatever his handicap would be off that index)

Found out what the update to the World Handicap System will be. For video explanations click HERE
The main adjustment will be adding (or subtracting) the difference between your course rating off the tee you're playing and par. At my course the CR's are 69.8 and 68.8 and as par is 70 I lose 0.2 and 1.2 off my handicap. Doesn't seem to make any difference for me off the back tees, but I LOSE two shots when I play the front tees.
Might come into effect in the new year.....

The thing about WHS is that you can easily manipulate it with general scores.
You can claim you're playing the back tees, but play the front tees, you can put in any score you like because your playing partner doesn't get a copy of your card.
We had the handicap secretary at St Andrews play two balls on the 9 hole course and put in an 18 hole score, among numerous other cheating allegations, he also went from about 12 to +1 but couldn't break 90 in a medal. He actually shot 96 in Fife Team Championship which is actually an event where most players are Scratch at worst. I don't care how bad a day a scratch golfer has, they won't shoot 96.

The WHS is a cheats charter, and I actually wish we still had the old system, it was a better representation of ability.

super_realist wrote:you can put in any score you like because your playing partner doesn't get a copy of your card.

Errr....the way we have to do it is with the IG (Intelligent Golf) app. Scores are entered on the app and then you nominate your playing partner, and the "card" is "sent" to them for review.
They can query any score and it gets sent back to the player. It goes back and forth until you both agree.
I suppose you could collude with your mate. but then you could have done that before with physical cards.

I'm never wrong wrote:

super_realist wrote:you can put in any score you like because your playing partner doesn't get a copy of your card.

Errr....the way we have to do it is with the IG (Intelligent Golf) app. Scores are entered on the app and then you nominate your playing partner, and the "card" is "sent" to them for review.
They can query any score and it gets sent back to the player. It goes back and forth until you both agree.
I suppose you could collude with your mate. but then you could have done that before with physical cards.

Interesting, I've seen an option on IG when you can add that you are marking someone else's score but it doesn't appear to be mandatory.


There's a good twitter guy in Scotland exposing cheats from various clubs and I've certainly witnessed people marking a par instead of a bogey when I've been out on the course or from the comfort of the clubhouse.

Did anyone play in a competition today where they had to use their new playing handicap? Just wondering how they got on. My first comp will be on the 8th - a stableford qualifier. I've seemed to have lost 2 strokes when I play qualifiers (95%) and 3 strokes when we play team games (85%). I expect I will go up, in time.

I was 10 playing handicap off the black and white tees and 9 off the yellows. Now I am 9 off the blacks, 8 off the whites and 7 off the yellows. Meanwhile in our monthly Stableford on Saturday the winner had 46 points playing off 15, 2nd had 45 points playing off handicap 46 and 3rd had 44 points playing off 41!

Finally bit the bullet and braved looking at the result from the Saunton Open, not pretty reading. I was last of those that didn’t NR (Gross and net) Utterly horrible day. From a WHS perspective I got 10 shots on the West and 12 on the East at Saunton (from an index of 7.2).
No idea how they work it out and quite frankly I don’t care because it would never be enough. In my defence I really shouldn’t be playing at the minute, irritated nerves (brachial plexus) and some moderate pain in the left shoulder area and weakness in left arm. So swing completely out of sync and zero fine motor skills for chipping and putting. Sickener but I’ll be back soon enough.