England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

First topic message reminder :

Rum sort of field for Nadeem to Sibley...two short covers ???

Not noted for getting caught there , is he ? Strange theory...

KP_fan wrote:Why is Butler been removed...is it merely pre-emptive rest? If so rest from wha is he being restedt?
There is an American saying "Don't Fix What ain't broke"

Bess dumped .....I told ya his lucky wkts notwithstanding....doesn't look like an international bowler.

Archer's injury whatever it is, will be a big blow to Eng.....and a pity we will not see this most exciting young fast bowler throughout the series.

Why do they not have Wood?...what is wood being rested from?
Though Olly stone from what I saw of in youtube doesn't look bad.....Flintoff like action and a bit short on length will be exciting to watch....if he can sustain he reported 90mph pace in the heat & humidity of chennai

Although if I were selecting I would always pick safe, swinging Woakes who can bat very well too

Butler was a pre planned rotation, he's going home for a break before the T20s which have priority. Player management, nt just for fitness but also so they can see their families and lead normal lives, has been a very big topic with Englands busiest ever schedule on top of IPL. With the additional pressures of having to bubble for most of the summer it just means the 3 format players cant do every series/game. Its an oddity that he was here for the first test.


The rest of the selections, jeepers. If Mo is in for Bess for any reason other than Bess having an injury that needs managing its bonkers. Mo is desperately short of cricket and form, and has never been able to firmly nail down a spot long term in any format. He was dropped for a reason and done nothing to demonstrate he should've been recalled to the squad.

He does have an excellent record against India, mostly because they tried to hit him out of the park and showed him no respect. An attack of Woakes, Stokes, Mo, Broad, Leach would leave England with just two genuine front line bulk over wicket taking threats, and one of the has been consistently bad in the first innings. I do love Woakes but have to be realistic about his track record outside England, its pretty awful. I do hope Mo comes good, he has had a habit of surprising people for brief periods but my god he's also had some truly dreadful performances and is one of those players who cracks under pressure.

If India bat first they should be even more embarrassed to lose than Australia would've been if they muffed their home series against a second string side

If England bat first they have a chance.

JDizzle wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/ind-vs-eng-2nd-test-2020-21-after-slow-start-chepauk-pitch-likely-to-take-fast-turn-in-second-test-1251395

Kind of think this is a mistake? India might still win on it, but making it a raging turner brings England’s lesser spinners into the game and makes it a bit more of a lottery. The first Test pitch was better for India IMO, they just picked the wrong team and the players picked didn’t execute like they can.

I think Ind is presuming that their batters can handle spin better than Eng batsman ( not necessarily true)
and how I read the news...... that it might spin more from D1 ( than it did in T1) but not necessarily a raging turner from D1

Well, we all knew Buttler was out for a rest and Foakes was coming in. Broad replacing Jimmy is unsurprising, and given how Broad bowled in Sri Lanka hardly likely to weaken the line-up.

Stone is decidedly unproven, but does offer genuine pace so is the obvious Archer replacement, and should be good enough to do a job of bowling short hostile spells to disrupt the batsman's rhythm. Surely his extra speed gets the nod over Woakes reliability and better batting.

Which then leaves Moeen replacing Bess. Perhaps a bit of a triumph of hope over (recent) experience - they're probably about equal as bowlers, but Bess will chip in regular 20s and 30s with the bat, Moeen has the potential to play a match-defining innings (or to get out for not many). I wonder if, as well as Bess looking tired last match, there's a bit of a thought of Mo potentially strengthening the batting in Buttler's absence (especially if we get to a position of needing quick runs).

Mo to strengthen the batting ...hmm. Ignoring that he hasnt batted in competitive red ball since getting dropped in the Ashes partly because of his batting melt down...Foakes has a better batting record in tests and first class than Butler who didnt contribute that much in the last test.

Honourable mention to England having posted their second best ever score in India in the last test possibly suggesting that the batting isnt in that much need of propping up anyway.

The only possible justification for Mo getting selected is that Bess is suffering from being overbowled and is being managed. I am beginning to suspect that Mo has compromising photos of Silverwood enjoying a coca cola with Hales or something though.

Gooseberry wrote:Mo to strengthen the batting ...hmm. Ignoring that he hasnt batted in competitive red ball since getting dropped in the Ashes partly because of his batting melt down...Foakes has a better batting record in tests and first class than Butler who didnt contribute that much in the last test.

Buttlers fan club make a big deal of his 30/40 run contributions, even now he's rarely if ever provided a match winning innings, doing just enough to hold onto his place.

TBF he has scored pretty well since his last recall with regular 50's, but its certainly not such a great weight of runs to suggest that Foakes is a significant downtrade even to the most ardent Buttler fanboys. Looking down the side Foakes has a better test batting average than anyone bar Root (including Mo). Now that may say more about England's batsmen (bar Root) than it does Foakes but the idea that a lack of quality in the top 6 (bar Rot) is going to be fixed by Moeen Ali at 7/8 is at best questionable.

Also lets not forget that Mo's excuse for his various crises was confusion about his role, was he judged on his batting or bowling? So if hes being recalled as a batsman why isnt it for Lawrence? Or is he being recalled as a bowler, in which case are we seriously expecting him to deliver better than Bess' 17/381 over the winter so far?

In short picking Mo and expecting it to pan out well is like replacing Jadeja with Washington Sundar and expecting to beat Australia on their home turf  I'm holding out for a miracle on this one, would loved to be proven wrong but can see an absolute car crash of a test for England coming up.


...Edit having seen the Root interview the logic for dropping him was a lack of consistency. In itself not unfair criticism across the winter not just the last test. Theres a bunch of stats showing how he bowled a load of filth that cost a lot of runs, but amongst that he's still Englands lead wicket taker this winter. Seems that the advice has come from Jeetan Patel, maybe he doesn't fancy his mates facing England at home in another final? He does mention that Bess just needs a rest though, which does back up the only vague justification for going back to Mo who's big problem has always been consistency. If this is about getting the best from Bess in tests 3 and 4 I can accept it. Doesn't mean Im confident of Englands chances in this one.

I did see someone compare the Mo for Bess substitution as similar to what England did in the 2010/11 Ashes where they pulled the leading wicket taker in the series in Finn, albeit coming off a loss, out of the side for Bresnan.

I can't remember what the reaction was at the time, and clearly it was the correct decision in hindsight - but it has things in common with this call. Two bowlers who are have taken more wickets than their bowling deserved and who's consistency was in question, which meant they were leaking more runs at times than ideal. The other thing it has in common is it requires a coach and captain who are 100% confident in themselves to make this call, as it would be much easier to just pick Bess again.

Will MacPherson at the Standard reported that he thinks it is perhaps 51/49 in favour of Woakes over Stone but still up the air. I'd definitely pick Stone, but if it is a bunsen where the scores are going to be lower perhaps Woakes' batting will swing it. England nailed the wicket in T1 with their side and when to declare, so maybe they just have a handle on conditions.

From all I have read, it sounds like Stokes is fit to bowl though. Which is a positive.

I am also not confident in England's chances, but I wasn't confident in England's chances with Bess or Moeen! One Test doesn't change the fact India are a better side in these conditions. I feel a big contribution will be needed with the bat from someone other than Root in this Test if England are to prevail.

Yeah think I'm just being a little emotional in regard tot he reselection of Moeen but I do feel theres a small element of certain people in the England hierarchy just wanting him to come good / feeling they owe him something. I guess what's blind sided me more than anything with all this is that the changes in coaching and selectors hasn't seen a shift in the addiction to him.

But it is entirely possible that he's really impressed Patel in the nets and is brimming with confidence after spending two weeks bowling in his bed room in Sri Lanka.

Fancy Stokes could end up bowling more than last test regardless of the Woakes/Stone call. Absolutely agree that should be made on a reading of the pitch rather than Woakes' batting at 9.

And yes absolutely India would still be favourites even if everyone was fully fit and available for England and all our personal favourites were selected. The last test was a truly unexpected result for England. The selections may well get some blame if they lose, but its always been the most likely outcome of this tour.

I'm optimistic because England are in the midst of a fantastic winning habit. I've doubted them, test-wise, plenty over the few years, but they keep pulling out these unexpected wins. Headingley 2019, the last test of the Ashes 2019, winning all five tests in Sri Lanka, winning three on the bounce in South Africa after going 1-0 down, winning four of five against India in 2018, the comeback against Pakistan in 2020, and the most recent win in India. Winning. Winning nine of their last ten tests (excluding the two rain-ruined draws against Pakistan).

It's time to dispense with any pessimism. Because England are winning. They keep winning. There's no reason to doubt the juggernaut in full-flow. No matter what team goes out tomorrow, England will win. And the test after that. And the World Test Championship final. And all year if they have to. Root's in the form of his life, Anderson is defying the natural science of aging, and there isn't a single thing on a cricketing field that Stokes can't do. England have cracked test cricket and they may never lose again (at least not this year).

Duty281 wrote:I'm optimistic because England are in the midst of a fantastic winning habit. I've doubted them, test-wise, plenty over the few years, but they keep pulling out these unexpected wins. Headingley 2019, the last test of the Ashes 2019, winning all five tests in Sri Lanka, winning three on the bounce in South Africa after going 1-0 down, winning four of five against India in 2018, the comeback against Pakistan in 2020, and the most recent win in India. Winning. Winning nine of their last ten tests (excluding the two rain-ruined draws against Pakistan).

It's time to dispense with any pessimism. Because England are winning. They keep winning. There's no reason to doubt the juggernaut in full-flow. No matter what team goes out tomorrow, England will win. And the test after that. And the World Test Championship final. And all year if they have to. Root's in the form of his life, Anderson is defying the natural science of aging, and there isn't a single thing on a cricketing field that Stokes can't do. England have cracked test cricket and they may never lose again (at least not this year).

Enjoy whatever you are drinking

"Archer injured, Anderson rested, Bess dropped - England make changes for second Test"

The BBC headline perhaps pointedly bringing attention to the reasons for each player missing out. Really tough on Bess. Even if he is dropped why not say he was tiring from playing a key role in all there winter Tests so far and needed a break? It would hardly be the first time a coach/set-up muddled reasons for a player being left out.

I hope he returns during this series. Whilst not a complete spinner he has been given a very tough job of learning his trade on the job in Test cricket due to lack of alternative options and he has won England games in doing so. He seems to have some character which is always likable in young cricketers.

Mo has had success against India with the ball and plays spin well but is a massive punt with no red ball cricket under his belt since September 2019. We will see what happens. Mo has proved me wrong before.

If it's control with the ball they are looking for I find Mo an odd call. His economy was always very high as a Test bowler as well as his average. The one thing Mo has is a pretty decent strike rate, only one ball per wicket higher than Jadeja in fact. He has leaked runs for those wickets more often than not though.

It is fair comment that England tend to lose the games everyone assumes will be a walk over. But when defying logic is your biggest hope its hard to be positive without jinxing them.

That west Indian chap got out for 5 on a flat deck. The world is back on its correct orbit.

If England get first bat again I give them a very decent chance. If they have to chase I am not optimistic as they are a bit too dependant on Root and he surely cannot keep making double centuries indefinitely. Hope I am wrong and some other players surprise on the upside.

Stone or Woakes perhaps not so clearcut as most of us thought. I have a hunch they might pick Woakes with a eye to the batting (perhaps sharing my concerns above). The Moeen selection may also point that way...though that Root interview makes a big point of Bess being "dropped" because they don't think his bowling is quite up to it at present. I'd have thought 17 wickets at 22 in the subcontinent suggests he was doing some things right but what do I know ?

Apart from the batting I guess my main worry is they are for various reasons without the men who took 13
of the 20 wickets last week. I really rate Broad and think he might do very well (especially if the pitch is similar) but have serious doubts about the others.

Maybe I am just being uncharacteristically pessimistic. We will see.

Reading Patel's comments re Bess and they seem a little more considered than Root's. He emphasises the fatigue issue more , as well as discussing in detail the control data - about which I have mixed feelings - as a dinosaur , of course I would

The importance of sticking to planned lines etc makes sense : except there are perhaps times a little variation is called for , on the hop , as it were , rather than waiting for the next whiteboard conference. Seems slightly odd to extol Leach for sticking to his plans while getting hit for 77 off 8 or whatever it was by Pant and complaining that Bess leaked runs later in the match...

That said , it does make some sense. I take with a sizeable pinch of salt the Cricviz data that proclaimed Bess's deliveries "should have got him 7 wickets at 36 " in Sri Lanka instead of the actual 12 at 21... I await the announcement that a leading batsman who makes 400 runs across a series at 50 really only earned a true average of 23 because he was dropped three times and might have been given lbw o a couple of occasions

But yes. Consistency is a virtue , and if taking a step back to work on it improves Dom's bowling then a break now may be a good move. Provided Moeen can step up (and I see I am far from alone in being apprehensive about that !) it could be a win-win for England. Just that my old fashioned nature prefers to stick to what seems to be working unless there is a very pressing reason to change.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I'm optimistic because England are in the midst of a fantastic winning habit. I've doubted them, test-wise, plenty over the few years, but they keep pulling out these unexpected wins. Headingley 2019, the last test of the Ashes 2019, winning all five tests in Sri Lanka, winning three on the bounce in South Africa after going 1-0 down, winning four of five against India in 2018, the comeback against Pakistan in 2020, and the most recent win in India. Winning. Winning nine of their last ten tests (excluding the two rain-ruined draws against Pakistan).

It's time to dispense with any pessimism. Because England are winning. They keep winning. There's no reason to doubt the juggernaut in full-flow. No matter what team goes out tomorrow, England will win. And the test after that. And the World Test Championship final. And all year if they have to. Root's in the form of his life, Anderson is defying the natural science of aging, and there isn't a single thing on a cricketing field that Stokes can't do. England have cracked test cricket and they may never lose again (at least not this year).

Enjoy whatever you are drinking

Perhaps fair to say Duty is known for rapid switching of viewpoints ... but I suspect he has posted the above somewhat tongue in cheek there , KP_fan.

India win the toss and bowl. Not a great start with my toss prediction (England) with a knock on bad effect for my result prediction (England).

Axar Patel, Kuldeep and Siraj in for Sundar, Nadeem and the rested Bumrah. Tough on Washington Sundar. Bess can now consider himself comfortably the second most unlucky player from T1.

England give Stone the shot which I'm very happy about. Foakes, Moeen, Broad and Stone in. Buttler, Bess, Anderson and Archer out.

A huge challenge for this bowling attack bowling first.

Well done England for backing Stone. Bumrah rested? Not many saw that coming. Sundar dropped? Very harsh. Toss lost? Can't do much about that. If it is turning from ball one as speculated, maybe not that much of an advantage.

Butcher (I know, I know) seems to think the pitch is absolute Bunsen. England will need the Leach from the second innings in T1 throughout this game.

If they are suspecting the spinners to go through a lot of overs then rotating Bess makes a touch more sense in my opinion. He was looking tired and if the Indian bats can get in on this pitch the spinners will bowl long spells. Still a massive gamble on Moeen and one I wouldn't personally have taken but I can see a bit more sense in it.

Root's quicker and flatter offies on a Bunsen could do some damage so perhaps a few golden arm overs from the skipper in store.

Root was never going to win two tosses in a row India will be happy about that start.

Stone getting his chance on a big stage. Might not be the friendliest conditions for his stuff but if he can do well it will be a big boost to his future.

No Bumrah ! He wasn't quite at his best last week , I thought. And he worked very hard first innings so this rest looks like a sensible move by India. Siraj was good in Australia. Washington Sundar suffers the fate of many bowlers who bat really well but fail in their primary role.

Challenge for England bowlers indeed. Crossed fingers...

Yes, Olly! What a start, what an odd leave from Gill.

Great start for Stone !

Pins Gill "stone" dead not playing a shot...

England delighted

What a start for Olly Stone.

Gill shoulders arms, is given LBW and doesn't review. Wisely I would think looking at the replay but yet to see ball tracking.

Norfolk’s finest

Actually was very dead...even if he'd been playing a shot he'd have been out had he missed that one.

Excellent first over from Stone...no great pace yet but right on the money . More please !

It's a spot on line and length in that first over from Stone. Not his full pace yet as alfie says but excellent bowling.

Cranked up the speed in his second over ! Very impressive first couple of overs for Stone

Imagine he will be used in short bursts : this first day new ball spell is probably his best chance to shine from the look of the pitch...

Gavaskar and Knight at 4:30am is nightmare fuel

Good toss to win . Feel for Washington , he had two dropped catches off him in first inning of T1, wasn't given a bowl in helpful condition. In second inning..
Bumrah rested won't be missed , good to see kuldeep in but Indian batting is shallow today.

Olly stone looks a real deal...Looks fast in the air
And is fast on speed gun...A bit remnscnet of Flintoff

This is going to be a low scoring game.
Pitch is slow and will soon start reversing and spinning I think

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Gavaskar and Knight at 4:30am is nightmare fuel

If I was picking my best XI of all time to bat for the mortgage then Gavaskar would probably open with Barry Richards.

If I were picking my favourite commentators Sunny would not fare in the same echelons.

It isn't perfect coverage but it is on terrestrial TV and was thrown together in quick time so I'll take it!

Hasn't worked for Broad so far, but Stone's first spell has been very good. Ominously Rohit appears to have put his suspect form to one side for now and is timing a few spectacularly.

Didn't take long to get Leach into action...not sure how much help he'll get this early on but certainly worth a try.

Not so that review : clearly missing , bad waste on a pitch on which reviews might be important.

Best pretend that review didn't happen!

Puffs of dust for the seamers and spinners, 10 overs into day one, not a great toss for England to lose!

Leach seemed convinced on that one, but surely always going down leg...

That was a bad review ...Always looked like going down
Pope was decisively against it, the WK was strangely not decisive

I think England reviewed that on the basis of how well Rohit is timing the ball rather than the delivery. Shocking review. In real time it felt amusing they even appealed that vigorously.

Rohit is playing very well thus far. When he gets going in home conditions he is a wonderful batsman to watch. All the shots in the book, elegant and a lot of power in his traditional shots.

I'm a fan of Stokes rocking the Arthur Shelby haircut.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Puffs of dust for the seamers and spinners, 10 overs into day one, not a great toss for England to lose!

Leach seemed convinced on that one, but surely always going down leg...

Welcome.to what's called Dustbowl in India

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Gavaskar and Knight at 4:30am is nightmare fuel

They don't really bother me , to be honest. Of course it is a more friendly time of the day here

Gavaskar not the most exciting pundit , but I actually have some time for Knight . Talks too much for a man calling a game we are all watching - as do a lot of modern commentators- but he makes some good points at times. And doesn't spend half his time reminiscing about the good old days...

Guess we all have our tastes - and distastes.

England already sitting back against Rohit, allowing him easy singles to rotate the strike and keep the score moving. Very ominous. Once he's in he can be incredibly destructive.

Rohit certainly not messing about...Stokes might want to reconsider the short ball.

Stokes on much earlier than last time. But there's not much there for him at the moment , so I think we will see Moeen fairly soon.

Drink time.

India has two explosive openers
And one of the innings in this series both might get going together
That would be a feast

Rohit again lunged so far forward to one he should have played from the crease or back foot

Hmm. Puffs of dust , bit of bounce for Leach. Can't see this going five days.
Here's Moeen...

The best spin bowling all-rounder Eng ever produced in to bowl

Root going off...looks like he might have jarred his knee fielding there...let’s hope not

KP_fan wrote:The best spin bowling all-rounder Eng ever produced in to bowl

You're giving plenty of hype to someone whose bowling average is over 35 and batting average below 30!

50 for Rohit in 47 balls.

Looked on it from the very first ball today. Some gloriously timed shots. Once he's away he's very difficult to rein in - just ask South Africa.

Not liking the sight of Root moving off the field rather gingerly...hope it is nothing a quick massage can't fix.

Fifty for Rohit Dominating the bowling at present... Just what his skipper would have been hoping for...

India on top after the early setback. Might be a tough day coming up for England.

Knight to me is the best of the commentators I am hearing on my telecast
Gavsakar and Siva are just bag of clichés
Agarkar is best of the indian commentators here.....Although he should work on toning down his heavy Mumbai accent

Butcher sounds like a beningn jolly English school master from 1980s

Moeen is flighting but not getting the dip that should come at the end of a well flighted delivery

Indians are consciously taking the English spinners on full
Eng should pull the length back just a bit like 6 inches