England - what next?

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.

Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.

Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I understand it was his first game...in an incredibly tough game v the French...he did well considering. Im just not sold as of yet. I havent been a club level either...id much prefer him as a 10.

But i will watch with interest.

It all just feels like we are still trying to shoehorn players in to that FB spot...im waiting for the genuine FB options to come through on the summer tour.

Eddie Jones is looking for a hybrid 4-15.....

Well in that case Freddie Steward would fit the bill.

I think it was Lancaster who seemed to pick almost an entire team (barring prop, scrum half) who could play at 6.

its becoming more like rugby league doc...a game for centers and backrower...

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Malins needs to start again even as a short term option he was so much more assured in defense than Daly. Got his presentation of the ball wrong a couple of times but he is a more elusive runner as well.

Disagree there.

Daly showed in his sub appearance what Eddie values...he attacked with pace, hit the gaps that were appearing. On his day i value Daly as a far better back 3 option than Malins....if only his defense was better.

Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I understand it was his first game...in an incredibly tough game v the French...he did well considering. Im just not sold as of yet. I havent been a club level either...id much prefer him as a 10.

But i will watch with interest.

It all just feels like we are still trying to shoehorn players in to that FB spot...im waiting for the genuine FB options to come through on the summer tour.

Eddie Jones is looking for a hybrid 4-15.....

Well in that case Freddie Steward would fit the bill.

I think it was Lancaster who seemed to pick almost an entire team (barring prop, scrum half) who could play at 6.

He's looking my choice at the moment. If the USA / Canada tour goes ahead he should be the 15.

I’ve always thought Daly is the perfect 23. Covers 4 positions to a decent standard and has the pace and skills to make an impact in any of them

BamBam wrote:I’ve always thought Daly is the perfect 23. Covers 4 positions to a decent standard and has the pace and skills to make an impact in any of them

He certainly seems to play better off the bench, he's been pretty average to poor for a while now. I really like Malins, I hope he gets a good run to settle in, Next up.....midfield!

BamBam wrote:I’ve always thought Daly is the perfect 23. Covers 4 positions to a decent standard and has the pace and skills to make an impact in any of them

Agreed. I think Malins keeps starting 15 spot, Daly on bench as cover for FB, wing and centre. Question is who gets other bench spots for backs, has to be Robson as only other 9 so will Eddie risk giving Odogwu a go( I would) or does he keep Lawrence. Be pretty harsh on Lawrence to be dropped again but I'd love to see Odogwu given a go in say last 20 minutes.
To answer Sgt_Pooly, midfield will be Farrell and Slade again, just can't see a change and in fairness both had decent games especially Slade and Farrells kicking crucial.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

BamBam wrote:I’ve always thought Daly is the perfect 23. Covers 4 positions to a decent standard and has the pace and skills to make an impact in any of them

He certainly seems to play better off the bench, he's been pretty average to poor for a while now. I really like Malins, I hope he gets a good run to settle in, Next up.....midfield!

Despite Slade having his best game for England, and Farrell looking far more in form / composed (whatever it was) its still unbalanced...

I want a bruiser in there and its probably at the expense of Slade as Farrell wont be dropped.

The summer tour will give us a look at the options...Lawrence / Devoto / Odogwu (if he is moved from the wing)

I'd love for Lawrence to get a start this weekend. Came on again and just looked comfortable. I understand that people want to see Odogwu again but I think Lawrence needs that chance first; and personally I think Odogwu has caught the eye at 13 and not so much at wing.

Is O'Connor on anyone's wish list? He's getting plenty of mentions from commentators.

I would have O'connor in like a shot, he could be a real option at 12. I'd take him over Lawrence personally.

Not seen anything of him recently, but I remember him being a full back at U20 level! What sort of 12 is he?

Pooly I signed him for the Falcons on the AP game many years ago so I'm claiming scouting credit if he's good!!

Seen him at 12/13/15 for Bears, really like him at 12. Big, quick, strong....perfect candidate for the IC spot outside Ford and inside Marchant/Lawrence.

He has a nice offload game and a sound defence, quite surprised he's not been talked about more actually.

I really rate O'Conor but see him as more of a 13 than a 12. Certainly in defence his strength is in the Joseph area of using his acceleration to cut down space on the blitz then still cover the outside arc with his pace.

Unlike many I actually like the Ford-Farrell axis when the backline is well balanced outside it so 12 doesn't concern me as much as others. I don't like Slade being the third member of that midfield due to that lack of balance, though Slade had a very good game on Saturday it should be said.

I still think most of England's best rugby under Jones has come from Ford-Farrell together. First with JJ largely outside them in that excellent start and then with Manu alongside in the RWC run. There have been very good games with Farrell at 10 as well (Australia in the quarter-final for instance) but by and large I think our best attacking rugby has been with the two playmakers.

We do need a more threatening runner in the midfield to emerge for balance with Manu potentially not playing for England again though. Lawrence and Odogwu are already two options with more power. Joseph and Marchant offer pace and very good running lines. Marchant I think looks a class act in the making. Fraser Dingwall also has a lot of talent.

There's a shed load of options as always. O'Connor has perhaps remained off the comments as he's been a bit of a utility playing from 12 to 15 for Bristol. Think he's getting more acknowledgment following Britols run of form? Perhaps a little easier to stand out for them than for Worcester?

I'm going to have a crack at what I'd like to see this summer excluding the guys who I think won't be there, and fingers crossed for injuries:

Randall, Smith
Radwan Lawrence Odogwu Cokanasiga
Steward

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm going to have a crack at what I'd like to see this summer excluding the guys who I think won't be there, and fingers crossed for injuries:

Randall, Smith
Radwan Lawrence Odogwu Cokanasiga
Steward

That'll do nicely for the summer tour!

1.Genge 2.Blamire 3.Stuart 4.Martin 5.Ewels (c) 6.T Hill 7.B Curry 8.Earl
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.Radwan 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Nowell 15.Malins

16.Barbeary 17.Obano 18.Heyes 19.J Hill 20.S Simmonds 21.Mitchell 22.J Simmonds 23.Odogwu

I'd hope to see something like that. A smattering of experience with a lot of potential.

Steward is a massive talent but the Gloucester game showed he has a lot to learn still, I'm not a big fan of that being in international rugby.

If Nowell can get fit but doesn't make the Lions I'd love to see him back involved with the England setup.

I'd like to see Barbeary get some time at hooker for Wasps before throwing him in there for England. He may just end up as a back rower. I'm more of a Dombrandt fan than Simmonds as well, but thats alwasy the issue, sooooo many options.

king_carlos wrote:1.Genge 2.Blamire 3.Stuart 4.Martin 5.Ewels (c) 6.T Hill 7.B Curry 8.Earl
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.Radwan 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Nowell 15.Malins

16.Barbeary 17.Obano 18.Heyes 19.J Hill 20.S Simmonds 21.Mitchell 22.J Simmonds 23.Odogwu

I'd hope to see something like that. A smattering of experience with a lot of potential.

Steward is a massive talent but the Gloucester game showed he has a lot to learn still, I'm not a big fan of that being in international rugby.

If Nowell can get fit but doesn't make the Lions I'd love to see him back involved with the England setup.

2 Falcons KC

Look at that back row...and to think i'd still like to see Dombrandt involved.

I really rate Blamire, GF.

Harsh on Dunn who I rate highly in the Premiership but I'm not sure he has the standout attributes to step-up. His strength in the Premiership is doing everything well. I just worry that his scrummaging that is strong in the Premiership will be solid at most in international rugby. Similar with his carrying and defence. Similar with Tom Cruse and Tommy Taylor prior to his injuries.

Blamire is very physical and is strong at the breakdown. I'd say I rate him higher than McGuigan now who I've also been a fan of for a while. Blamire just seems to have that step-up in physicality and always does well in contact.

7.5 - Tommy Taylor heading back to Sale means I'm hopeful Barbeary will move back to hooker.

I really like the look of Will Capon and Curtis Langdon as other young hookers.

i agree completely on Blamire v McGuigan. Blamire is far more physical and actually is very creative ball in hand.

Id say Mcguigan just edges it at the moment, but thats more on experience..Blamire will learn...and then he'll move quite a bit ahead of McGuigan.

You know, I find it kind of funny that we are trying to fill out a side with a number of England regulars missing, and we are still going to omit some really good players.  Not sure how we work it, but I would really want to see Sam Simmonds and Dombrandt starting.  And Nick Isiekwe in the second row.  Seeing him at Saints this season I think he is really good and he has the bonus Eddie Jones trait of being a good hybrid.  It’s a shame he will go back to Saracens.  I would also like to see a direct competition between Marcus Smith and Joe Simmonds, each starting a game.  They are very different players and would be fun to watch.

king_carlos wrote:1.Genge 2.Blamire 3.Stuart 4.Martin 5.Ewels (c) 6.T Hill 7.B Curry 8.Earl
9.Randall 10.Smith 11.Radwan 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.Nowell 15.Malins

16.Barbeary 17.Obano 18.Heyes 19.J Hill 20.S Simmonds 21.Mitchell 22.J Simmonds 23.Odogwu

I'd hope to see something like that. A smattering of experience with a lot of potential.

Steward is a massive talent but the Gloucester game showed he has a lot to learn still, I'm not a big fan of that being in international rugby.

If Nowell can get fit but doesn't make the Lions I'd love to see him back involved with the England setup.

Steward was good in attack even if he found the swirling wind difficult. Glaws international fullback suffered as well though it was the first time we've seen Steward under the high ball.

I'd have Dunn at hooker and captaining the team personally. His form for Bath has been excellent and he's been the third choice option for England for a while. I certainly agree with the idea of sending a mix of youth and experience. I've said it before, I'd send a squad containing no player that played in both the 6N and the ANC.

Obano, Dunn, Heyes, Ribbans, Beaumont, Hill, Evans, Simmonds, Randall, Smith, Parton, O'Connor, Lawrence, Radwan, Steward

Barbeary, West, Williams, Martin, T Willis, Mitchell, Simmonds, Odogwu.

Plenty of experience mixed in with a lot of players around the right age to see us to the next world cup. Having both Parton and Steward in the back three should mean plenty of cover at the back for them so there's not too much pressure though games against Canada and USA should be too taxing.

Not only generate lots of competition for places and get a broader number of players up to the speed with how England want to play but you also get those players that don't go with the Lions well rested and a full pre season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's a shed load of options as always. O'Connor has perhaps remained off the comments as he's been a bit of a utility playing from 12 to 15 for Bristol. Think he's getting more acknowledgment following Britols run of form? Perhaps a little easier to stand out for them than for Worcester?

I'm going to have a crack at what I'd like to see this summer excluding the guys who I think won't be there, and fingers crossed for injuries:

Randall, Smith
Radwan Lawrence Odogwu Cokanasiga
Steward

I forgot Marchant.

GeordieFalcon wrote:its becoming more like rugby league doc...a game for centers and backrower...

Yeah, I think you're right. Even though I started playing Rugby as a wing forward then have migrated back and forth to the centres (despite being too old and having too many miles), I still enjoy the sport for all shapes and sizes concept, which I think is dead-nuts great for the sport. I think my club here looks a bit old fashioned in that our props like like vintage props, our scrum half looks like an old fashioned 9, our fly half has great hair, and so on.

By the way, mate, my club season starts April 3. Regular rules. My older son gets to start, I get number 23 (as it should be). First match since Autumn 2019!
I hope I remember which way to run....

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:its becoming more like rugby league doc...a game for centers and backrower...

Yeah, I think you're right.  Even though I started playing Rugby as a wing forward then have migrated back and forth to the centres (despite being too old and having too many miles), I still enjoy the sport for all shapes and sizes concept, which I think is dead-nuts great for the sport.  I think my club here looks a bit old fashioned in that our props like like vintage props, our scrum half looks like an old fashioned 9, our fly half has great hair, and so on.

By the way, mate, my club season starts April 3.  Regular rules.  My older son gets to start, I get number 23 (as it should be).  First match since Autumn 2019!
I hope I remember which way to run....
 

Hope youve been getting the hill sprints and press ups going in preparation!

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:its becoming more like rugby league doc...a game for centers and backrower...

Yeah, I think you're right.  Even though I started playing Rugby as a wing forward then have migrated back and forth to the centres (despite being too old and having too many miles), I still enjoy the sport for all shapes and sizes concept, which I think is dead-nuts great for the sport.  I think my club here looks a bit old fashioned in that our props like like vintage props, our scrum half looks like an old fashioned 9, our fly half has great hair, and so on.

By the way, mate, my club season starts April 3.  Regular rules.  My older son gets to start, I get number 23 (as it should be).  First match since Autumn 2019!
I hope I remember which way to run....
 

Hope youve been getting the hill sprints and press ups going in preparation!

I actually live on a hill so I can sprint down at any time! Walking up is tougher...

Ha ha ha ...one of my favorite things ever. I live next to a big hill also...get out twice a week and do an hour long hill sprint session.

Cant beat it!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ha ha ha ...one of my favorite things ever. I live next to a big hill also...get out twice a week and do an hour long hill sprint session.

Cant beat it!

I remember the days when my knees would let me run for an hour. I'm only 34 as well. I do love a hill sprint session but they have to be short and intense these days.

Tell me about it. Im 44. Had ACL reconstruction alongside lateral and medial meniscus repair about 10 years ago and my knee is in bits now, and the rest of the body is following quickly

But hey i love to get out and blast what i can. Id rather do a 20 mins hill session than run flat for 5 miles etc.

Does make you wonder what the top end rugby lads must feel like in their 40s...

I moved to a walking treadmill for my work from home setup over the summer as part of a (successful) plan to lose 20 kgs in lockdown. Then the old treadmill broke and I bought a new one while waiting for it to be fixed. It had a built in fixed incline of 5% - and I didn't realise until I tried it how much harder that is.

So now I walk 6+ hours a day on a 5% incline. I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s any more - but I'm a lot thinner than I was and a decent amount fitter.

Walking 6 hrs per day uphill has got to be tough! For me, I agree with the other lads who prefer the intense hill workouts. My club had kept at it playing Touch Rugby all last year and only stopped for the big snow we had in early February. We restarted Touch this past Sunday since the snow finally melted.

My left knee has no functional meniscus left, so I have to keep it loose or it becomes uncomfortable. But if I keep moving it is pretty good. Whatever we do, just keep moving!

Poorfour wrote:I moved to a walking treadmill for my work from home setup over the summer as part of a (successful) plan to lose 20 kgs in lockdown. Then the old treadmill broke and I bought a new one while waiting for it to be fixed. It had a built in fixed incline of 5% - and I didn't realise until I tried it how much harder that is.

So now I walk 6+ hours a day on a 5% incline. I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s any more - but I'm a lot thinner than I was and a decent amount fitter.

6+ hours a day! Thats alot!!

Is there anyone who played rugby that doesn't have knee problems?

doctor_grey wrote:Walking 6 hrs per day uphill has got to be tough!  For me, I agree with the other lads who prefer the intense hill workouts.  My club had kept at it playing Touch Rugby all last year and only stopped for the big snow we had in early February.  We restarted Touch this past Sunday since the snow finally melted.  

My left knee has no functional meniscus left, so I have to keep it loose or it becomes uncomfortable.  But if I keep moving it is pretty good.  Whatever we do, just keep moving!

Exactly...we just do what we can.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I moved to a walking treadmill for my work from home setup over the summer as part of a (successful) plan to lose 20 kgs in lockdown. Then the old treadmill broke and I bought a new one while waiting for it to be fixed. It had a built in fixed incline of 5% - and I didn't realise until I tried it how much harder that is.

So now I walk 6+ hours a day on a 5% incline. I'm not as fast as I was in my 20s any more - but I'm a lot thinner than I was and a decent amount fitter.

6+ hours a day! Thats alot!!

My knee problems came courtesy of cricket. I was a stocky kid so kept wicket then shot up in height over a winter and kept trying to keep. It ruined my knees and back.

Rugby gave me the shoulder and ankle problem though until I eventually stopped playing after concussions. 

Edit: I meant to quote Soul's post about knee problems there sorry chaps!

We sound like a right healthy bunch....

So we're entitled to be Armchair critics...

Tendinosis in my right knee and persistent shoulder pain, stopped playing by the age of 19.

You know what I love about this sport? It’s great for business!

GeordieFalcon wrote:We sound like a right healthy bunch....

So we're entitled to be Armchair critics...

and as our body parts wear down, our keen Rugby analytical skills improve exponentially.

Soul Requiem wrote:Is there anyone who played rugby that doesn't have knee problems?

Amazingly the only injury I ever had playing rugby was a black eye when my mate peeled out of the back of a maul just as I was going into the back of it. Elbow to the eye! My level of play was school, and not very good at that, but I still love the game, even though I was a bit rubbish. Since I stopped playing 31 years ago I've injured myself playing indoor cricket (anterior cruciate strain) and had two frozen shoulders which happened due to badminton. Both were rather uncomfortable!

Thought about playing again about 10 years ago and was advised that it would not be a good idea by my GP. So I shout at the TV nowadays

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:We sound like a right healthy bunch....

So we're entitled to be Armchair critics...

and as our body parts wear down, our keen Rugby analytical skills improve exponentially.

Ha you say that but the sole reason I was still getting games for my club before I had to stop was because they wanted the experience. I was about 10 years older than most of the rest of the backline. Well that and I could still do my regather the short kick off routine. The speed didn't really dip too much it was just it hurt quite a bit afterwards.

Rugby didn't injure me too much, it was running out onto the training field, small dip in the ground not seen through the long grass, over extended and this resulted in tearing my knee ligaments virtually off the bone. this was in the mid 70's so none of the treatments we have today.

Didn't stop me playing, but I was out for a year and never got back to the level I was previously, my knee could not stand up to the twice weekly training and a game on Saturday. Still gives me a lot of jip today.

My shoulder is the worst though, not rugby related, but throwing the javelin, it completely wrecks the none throwing arm/shoulder as well as the knee that you pivot around.

You threw the Javelin? That is one of the worst things you can do to your shoulder! The shoulder is not designed for overhead throws. Which I guess you already found out the hard way. And trying to throw as long as possible with maximum force puts so much stress on the joint that many people doing similar things end up with shoulder problems. And also the lead or pivot knee. Bowlers in cricket and pitchers in baseball have similar problems, though pitchers often have elbow problems too.

doctor_grey wrote:You threw the Javelin?  That is one of the worst things you can do to your shoulder!  The shoulder is not designed for overhead throws.  Which I guess you already found out the hard way.  And trying to throw as long as possible with maximum force puts so much stress on the joint that many people doing similar things end up with shoulder problems.  And also the lead or pivot knee.  Bowlers in cricket and pitchers in baseball have similar problems, though pitchers often have elbow problems too.  

Tell me about it! I was 6'4" and the same sort of build as Steve Backley, but heavier built. I used the sideways running technique, a bit like a mobile golf shot, you would turn sideways to wards the end of the run up and launch your non throwing arm backwards to allow the body to clear space for the throwing arm to come through, whilst pivoting on you knee whilst wearing shoes design to stop your foot from slipping. Your non throwing arm, left in my case is just going back with no resistance other than the shoulder socket trying to hold it in place. Your knee is being stamped into the ground (well your foot) is taking all your weight whilst twisting at an angle. Jan Zelezny's technique was much easier on the body as it relied on speed of arm and not bulk and strength, but he had his share of injuries as well.

My left shoulder clicks as I move it still, some 45 years after I had to stop throwing.

Poorfour wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Tough on Malins GF. It's his first start and isn't used to playing with these players, he attacking prowess will come with more time (and importantly sstarts) in the side. What he did individually i.e. defensive positioning, one on one etc was very solid and upgrade on Daly.

I was really impressed with him, his anticipation, positioning and tackling surpassed anything Daly has been producing. He also looked decent under the high ball, compared to Daly anyway.

I agree. Fullback, perhaps more than any other position, is about what they do off the ball. Malins didn't face much pressure from the high ball, which to me indicates he was covering the territory to close down the kicking options for France - in contrast to how teams have started targeting Daly repeatedly because they know they will win knock ons and have a chance to pressure him. I don't remember him being exposed much in defence - whereas Daly was regularly caught out of position. If you don't really notice a fullback in those circumstances, they are generally doing a decent job.

Daly looked more threatening in attack when he came on, but I think overall it was a fair trade off.

To be fair to Daly there was a near 20% swing in possession for England against France than compared to the other games. More ball time for England, most of it in the French half, means far fewer kicks being put up on Daly in England's half by the opposition.

Has anyone changed their views on Ben Youngs from last week?

Lots have been said about the treatment of Lawrence, Odogwu etc...why havent they been used right etc.

I saw an interesting discussion about this.

The general gist was Wasps fans were bemoaning Odogwu wasting his time and development being in the England squad when he could be playing actual games for Wasps.

Many agreed, however some others suggested this was not the case.

1.
Because he had been retained in the squad showed he was valued by Jones, (many are thrown aside quickly)

2.
Jones often employs high intensity almost test match level training sessions which can be brutal. By being involved in this playing against the best in England, means that these players are experiencing far more than they would in the prem games...

So generally it was felt that the likes of Odogwu is experiencing the levels he needs to meet to make the team..and be able to face teams like NZ,SA, Wales, Ire, Scot etc etc.
And if he cant match those fitness requirements etc in the training sessions...he wont cope in the actual games.

Whats your thoughts?

Would have liked to see him against Italy.

I'm sorry but I don't buy into it.

England have looked off the pace, the Vunipolas were walking back to defend vs France on more than one occasion.

IMHO the Prem is just as fit.

Eddies logic may work on the suits at the RFU but the proof is in the pudding, unfortunately some of our forwards look and play like puddings these days.

Do you think the prem is the same level as a test match?

I thought Billy had a very good game against France. Back to somewhere near his best. He's making metres through contact again despite drawing defenders in which is what England use him for.

The Prem is nowhere near as fit as the international side IMO. We frequently see players come into the England camp and returning better conditioned players for their clubs. At Tigers Genge is a case in point. His defensive work rate and ability to play deep into the second half rocketed up after time in the England set-up.

Whether throwing players who are new to the senior squad straight into those brutal training sessions has led to long term injuries is a different issue. Sam Jones and Beno Obano being the two who spring to mind. That's a debate that's been had a fair bit though and from what I've read it does sound like players who are new to the set-up do get given more time to acclimatise now before going full whack. Hence the apprentice players and guys being around the camp for a while without featuring in matchday squads.

On Odogwu specifically he has always been rapid and explosive but defence, conditioning and at one time training ethic were issues for him. I believe Odogwu has an international future but I see it at 13 where his defence will need to be a notch above where it is at current - he only started playing centre this season. I'm just not sure that Odogwu has the high ball work (he's 5'9") or kicking game of an international winger. His high ball work at times has made Christian Wade look like Rob Kearney.