England - what next?

First topic message reminder :

Firstly I take nothing away from Scotland who were fantastic and I hope go on to win a grand slam.

For me this dire England performance may well be a blessing in disguise. Us winning the Autumn cup playing such awful rugby only covered up a number of cracks. We have nothing in attack and our discipline is consistently the worst in the world. We are saved by our defence.

Ok we were missing some props which taught us that Genge is not quite there. Plus Stuart very quiet in the loose. Mako making his usual 21 tackles would have helped. No need to panic, but Eddie has to accept that this is not just a blip but a reflection of recent dire performances. You cannot win matches giving away so many penalties and that is a recurring issue. And he chose to start all those rusty Sarries players who all looked off the pace. Why not start Cowan-Dickie?

But the midfield is dire and Farrell a real problem there. Just not good enough. I remember Eddie being ruthless and taking Luther Burrell off after 25 minutes against the Aussies. We needed that ruthless streak today and Ford should have replaced Farrell with 20 to go. Itoje a penalty machine but because he is normally a machine and plays the full 80 Eddie did not react.

Time for England to take a good hard look at this team and shake it up (not panic, but a decent shakeup).

Chris Jones is suggesting on BBC site that this 6 Nations was the last hurrah for the 2019 World Cup team and that it was always Eddie's intention to freshen up the squad on the Summer tour when many of the senior players were off with the Lions.

It hasn't quite worked out that way, with the squad performing badly enough that we could realistically end up 5th in the table.  Plus big question marks over the Lions and England's Summer tour.

Whether or not Eddie picks them, there are options at 8, 9, 10 and 15.  It is the 12 and 13 shirts where the cupboard is looking bare - particularly the 12 shirt.

Im not sure the cuppboards are bare at 12 /13 i think its about getting the balance.

You dont need World Class players in every position...you need players who can do the required job, to allow the better players around them to work their magic.

At the moment theres a few areas where the balance is just not quite right.

Lawrence and Marchant both potentially offer a point of difference at 13 while Slade needs to be given a chance at 12 with one of them outside him, he's wasted at 13 especially when there are already three other playmakers in the team.

I agree Soul, re Slade

At 12...Im not his biggest fan at all, but hell, Farrell can do the job, so long as he has balance around him...ie a big carrier. Id take the captaincy off him though.

I like Devoto. Hes a tall strong carrying 12 with a good off load. He could do a great job there trucking it up for Ford / Smith to use with a Lawrence / Marchant outside him.

Sam James has always impressed me...yet never had a look in.

Again...some of these dont have to be "world class" they just need to be able to do a few jobs very well...

Mike Tindall comes to my mind...he did the nuts n bolts for the creativity around him.

I think slade is a good shout at 12, I like marchant as he has awareness and skills that look, imo, better than the average premiership centre. He understands the game as well. Freddie shepherd looks like a great find at fullback and still reckon young mallender will be in mix next year if he keeps fit. Marcus Smith should also get a crack as he has skills you could never teach and has come on defensively this year. We know we have the talent just need to harness it.

We could add some upcoming forwards like barbeary and we start to have a fresher looking team. Too many of the current squad are coming back from long layoff or not match fit because they haven't played. Hopefully underhill and Willis come back into the fold and Earl is utilised more.

I hope the summer tour onwards is used to build for the world Cup.

Or it could be that a number of the core 2019 RWC players have too many miles on their tyres.

I think that even if they don't tour with the Lions, the following England players need a break from the England set-up:

Youngs, Billy, George, Itoje, Sinckler, Mako, Tom Curry, Ford, Farrell, Watson, Daly and May. These are, of course the core of England's 2019 World Cup squad. We desperately need fresh blood in all their positions, if only to get other players used to International rugby. There are numerous really good players that haven't been anywhere near the squad for whatever reason. What we need is a fresh start and a blank sheet of paper to see what these players can do.

Back row has been hugely contested but I would like to see some fresh blood there. Ben Curry (once he recovers from his shoulder issue) deserves a chance. Nathan Hughes has been on fire, Sam Simmonds is obvious, Dombrandt has been pretty good for Harlequins this season (and has even trained with England). Chuck in the likes of Ted Hill, Tom Willis, Brad Shields (again), George Martin and Lewis Ludlam and there's plenty to choose from. Give the regulars a rest.

New centres should be Lawrence, Devoto, Marchant, Odogwu. Leave Manu at home as he'll break again if rushed back. We need to learn how to play without him. Slade is unlikely to go on the Lions tour at present so it may be worth keeping hold of him for experience.

Let's see what Obano can do properly at Loosehead rather than a few minutes off the bench. Will Stuart too, at Tighthead. It'd be great if Players like Ribbans and Kpoku can cut it at lock.

We need to blood Smith and Simmonds at 10. Give both of them the chance at an international start and they'll both take it. Ford and Farrell are not gods - they have certainly shown that they are struggling for what form they once had.

9 is not a bad position. We have depth so why not go for Mitchell, Randall and Spencer as the next 3 9s.

The back 3 should be completely up for grabs. I am hoping that Cokanasiga regains both form and fitness - at his best he's a huge handful for any opposition. Malins is nailed on at 15 for me. Will Nowell be a potential on the comeback trail?

Finally (if he recovers from his stress fracture), have Joe Launchbury captain the touring team - he's very experienced, captains his club side week in week out and certainly has the right temperament. He also leads by example. It's not like he's a penalty machine either.

It may be a bit of a scratch side but so was 2017, and not everyone will do well - there a lot of new caps there who will either sink or swim. However, there are a lot of leaders in that team such as Dombrandt, Slade, Curry, Joe Simmonds, Smith, Spencer and Hill. The 2017 tour to Argentina gave us plenty of new caps who starred for England such as Tom Curry, Sam Underhill, Mark Wilson - hell even Piers Francis played well. Thing is, not all will stay in the team - look at the many who started and were then barely seen again such as Isiekwe (who could in theory work his way back in as he's been playing well at Saints), Lozowski, Collier, Armand and Maunder. But it's certainly worth getting them used to international pace and seeing who is up to the job. Otherwise, how are we going to know if we suddenly need them??

One thing that is worth discussing is the make up of England's 2019 world cup squad.

How many players were there because they were good back ups who wouldn't rock the boat, would be hungry and receptive in training because they were so new or inexperienced, and therefore be good for preparing the first team players who were the real focus of Jones' energy?

Ludlam over a big presence like Robshaw, McConnochie over Mike Brown, Heinz over Care.

You can see how some of those big name players would be unhappy and less happy being tackle bag holders than the players who went to Japan.

Do we think Jones will do the same again?

[quote="doctor_grey"]Or it could be that a number of the core 2019 RWC players have too many miles on their tyres.[/qIuote]

I would agree with that, Ben Youngs for one,Billy V another both good players in their own right but maybe time for a spell on the bench or maybe dropped from the squad for a time. and other players brought in.

whatahitson wrote:One thing that is worth discussing is the make up of England's 2019 world cup squad.

How many players were there because they were good back ups who wouldn't rock the boat, would be hungry and receptive in training because they were so new or inexperienced, and therefore be good for preparing the first team players who were the real focus of Jones' energy?

Ludlam over a big presence like Robshaw, McConnochie over Mike Brown, Heinz over Care.

You can see how some of those big name players would be unhappy and less happy being tackle bag holders than the players who went to Japan.

Do we think Jones will do the same again?

There is nothing to discuss. Jones is on record as saying that choosing the players who are unlikely to get on the pitch is very hard because of the morale aspect. There will always be arguments about Care but the other 2 were done by that stage

lostinwales wrote:

whatahitson wrote:One thing that is worth discussing is the make up of England's 2019 world cup squad.

How many players were there because they were good back ups who wouldn't rock the boat, would be hungry and receptive in training because they were so new or inexperienced, and therefore be good for preparing the first team players who were the real focus of Jones' energy?

Ludlam over a big presence like Robshaw, McConnochie over Mike Brown, Heinz over Care.

You can see how some of those big name players would be unhappy and less happy being tackle bag holders than the players who went to Japan.

Do we think Jones will do the same again?

There is nothing to discuss. Jones is on record as saying that choosing the players who are unlikely to get on the pitch is very hard because of the morale aspect. There will always be arguments about Care but the other 2 were done by that stage

And he chose Odogwu because??????
Not having a crack on you at all, comment directed straight at Eddie.

Interesting that Nigel Owens is defending Owen Farrell, saying that he was always respectful and that he didn't have any problems with him.

Possibly because he couldn't understand a word he said and said it with a smile.

lostinwales wrote:
There is nothing to discuss. Jones is on record as saying that choosing the players who are unlikely to get on the pitch is very hard because of the morale aspect. There will always be arguments about Care but the other 2 were done by that stage

One of the reasons Robshaw lasted so long under Eddie was his willingness to do whatever was needed - whether it was preparing to play himself or preparing his successors to play in his place. It was only when he rushed back from his knee injury and couldn't meet Eddie's expectations about work rate that he was permanently left behind.

I'd argue that England are still missing what Care can bring...

I see Ribbans has joined the squad to replace Lawes...another lock...at this point I'm forced to wonder if calling up all these very tall men is some kind of fetish??

Ribbans.....meh

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ribbans.....meh

I'm a Saints fan and I agree....this whole selection at the moment is just rather underwhelming.

They want a 6 who can comptete at the lineout. Given how Woki took us apart I'm not that surprised with underhill and willis out. Probably means itoje to 6?

If they wanted a 6 we could look at Isiekwe or Ted Hill. Ribbans is not an international standard 6

No 7&1/2 wrote:They want a 6 who can comptete at the lineout. Given how Woki took us apart I'm not that surprised with underhill and willis out. Probably means itoje to 6?

It shows the value of not having Kruis or Lawes available, either of them alongside Itoje is more than a match for any lineout accept South Africa where you do need a top class third jumper.

And it functioned well bar France in the autumn with Launchbury. Curry seemingly not being used enough now. Dont know why hes getting pretty good.

miltonkeynesengland wrote:If they wanted a 6 we could look at Isiekwe or Ted Hill. Ribbans is not an international standard 6

Never said he was.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They want a 6 who can comptete at the lineout. Given how Woki took us apart I'm not that surprised with underhill and willis out. Probably means itoje to 6?

Who then goes to lock..?

Hill and Who? Either they they'll be lightweight or inexperienced (IF Martin is in). It wouldnt end well against the monster French lock pairing...

Ewells is the obvious choice for me.

In other news Eastmond is back in league with leeds rhinos. I agree who heartedly with geordie. Could have been some scrum half. Bar the wingers union clubs do tend to waste the best league talent and play then in stupid positions.

So whats the back 5?

4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Wilson
7 Curry
8 Billy

Id be tempted to give Martin a shot at 6...over Wilson to be honest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:In other news Eastmond is back in league with leeds rhinos. I agree who heartedly with geordie. Could have been some scrum half. Bar the wingers union clubs do tend to waste the best league talent and play then in stupid positions.

Yup...said all along should have been a SH.

And Sam Simmonds should be a 12...

For the next game I would go:

Vunipola LCD sinckler
Itoje hill
Martin curry
Vunipola
Robson Farrell
May Lawrence slade watson
Malins

Genge george stuart ewells earl mitchell Odogwu

Just freshen it up a bit and offer some game time to these some newer guys

No 7&1/2 wrote:And it functioned well bar France in the autumn with Launchbury. Curry seemingly not being used enough now. Dont know why hes getting pretty good.

It's functioned ok since the world cup but Lawes was always the go to for set plays off the top, the lack of cohesion in attack obviously isn't helping.

True enough soul. Kmow its nownin vogue to blame other cogs of the lineout but george who is normally top notch has put a few under throws in this tournament too.

I think Wilson has had his day now. I'd be tempted to put Curry at 6 to be used as a jumper. He was doing well since he started and put Earl in at 7. If you start LCD he carries better in traffic than George who seems to be a winger someday. It gives us Mako LCD Sinkler Billy as close to breakdown heavy duty carriers. Then Maro Earl and Curry a bit further out.

Cant we just bring Ted Hill in to just smash things in attack and defence...and hes a lineout option.

Or will Martin do the same job.

Martin is very similar from what I've seen. Really like the look of him.

Leicester look to have some diamonds with him, steward and van Poortvliet.

Ted Hill is more dominant in contact than Martin. The way Hill dominates collision regularly is similar to Underhill when he broke through with the O's.

Martin has an enormous work rate for such a young and massive bloke. He's got a big future but it should be at lock in my opinion.

Martin hasn't really brought his carrying from age grade to senior rugby yet either whereas Hill has.

With Proudfoot there it does surprise me that hill isn't. Seems a very south african blindside.

Just Dave Ribbans as been called into the squad to replace Lawes in the pack.
aiat is alright calling up players like Ribbans, if he going to start from the off and get 5/20 minutes off the bench.

For me this 6 nations is over for England we cannot win it or come even close so there should be a chance for other players to come in and stake a claim for the shirt, and some of the old guard to take a rest or maybe not play at all until they get back to full fitness,

I think Ribbans is a good player having a terrific season and would do well at the international level. As a lock. If we really, really, really must have a hybrid then I think Nick Isiekwe would do well. But I would prefer the far out radical solution of playing a blindside at blindside, an open side at open side, and a proper 8 at 8.

There have been a few calls for George Kruis to be recalled when available to give us some extra lineout offence and defence ability.  I think Ewels was identified as the Kruis replacement, but in 3 years he has been pretty underwhelming doing nothing really standout.   Ribbans reminds me a bit of Kruis - neither are particularly large for locks, but both seem fairly intelligent lineout operators.  I was one of those calling for Jonny Hill to get a go in the team, but he just looks a decent club player.

What was clear on Saturday was that Wales targeted our third jumper and whilst front of the lineout ball isn't necessarily the best Alun Wyn had a easy day against Wilson.  If Lawes isn't available and he is probably the best of our 'lock playing out of position at 6' options, as you say it would be great to see a 6 playing 6.

I would love to see a change at 8 to an Earl, SImmonds or Dombrandt but they are all very different players to Billy and Eddie would need to change the game plan to accommodate them, which he seems very reluctant to do.

Looking back on England teams with really good back row players who were also very good jumpers with some real height, there really aren't many I can recall.  From back in their heyday, players who were actual wing forwards, I can only think of Tom Croft (6'6", 17.5 st) and Tom Wood (6'5", 17.7 st).  And these guys were really good all over the pitch, not just lineout gurus.  I'm sure there were others, but these guys stick out for me.  

Maybe the hybrid approach is an attempt to replicate those players impact on the game, But the only real effective hybrid now is Lawes, who does a lot of the critical dog work the team needs.  Unfortunately, he in injured. But I still prefer him in the second row.  

The other lock I think England miss is Launchbury,  Not a candidate for the hybrid role when he recovers, but he also does a lot of dog work which makes the players around him better.  

In the next match, I would start Itoje and Ribbans in the second row.  Jonny Hill has been highly mediocre for England, though a good club player, plus he has that god-awful haircut which is an embarrassment to Queen and country.

miltonkeynesengland wrote:If they wanted a 6 we could look at Isiekwe or Ted Hill. Ribbans is not an international standard 6

Ribbans has been picked ahead of Isiekwe on the basis of his form for Saints.

If you want to pick a true 6, then there are plenty about, but you can't complain about picking a 6.5 and suggest another one would be better.

I would agree, I cannot see the sense in it, as it would probably put Itoje at 6 and perm 2 from Hiil/Ribbans/Ewels is inviting disaster.

I dont get why they insist on a lock playing 6 when we have Ted Hill who is a lock sized 6...who dominates the collisions and contact exactly as they want!!???

Playing a 6 at lock can work, you just need to find the right fit. Look at Pieter Stephanus du Toit, he was a very good lock and then moved to the backrow and became arguably the best player in the world in 2019.

As a Welsh fan, I was always worried when I saw Launchbury on your teamsheet as I have always rated him. The sheer amount of work he gets through amazed me. And you rarely saw him like you do with Itoje.

Lawes is to undergo surgery on the Pectoral injury he picked up in training with the England camp, likely to be out for another 12 weeks. That takes it until mid June. Lions chances don't look too good.

Team for the summer tour to USA and Canada (if it goes ahead)

1 Obano
2 LCD & Barbeary
3 Stuart
4 Martin (Kpoku? )
5 Launchbury (Captain - Tours to give Experience)
6 Ted Hill
7 Ben Curry
8 Dombrandt

9 Randall
10 Smith
11 Radwan / Thorley
12 Devoto
13 Lawrence
14 Odogwu
15 Steward

doctor_grey wrote:Looking back on England teams with really good back row players who were also very good jumpers with some real height, there really aren't many I can recall.  From back in their heyday, players who were actual wing forwards, I can only think of Tom Croft (6'6", 17.5 st) and Tom Wood (6'5", 17.7 st).  And these guys were really good all over the pitch, not just lineout gurus.  I'm sure there were others, but these guys stick out for me.  

Maybe the hybrid approach is an attempt to replicate those players impact on the game, But the only real effective hybrid now is Lawes, who does a lot of the critical dog work the team needs.  Unfortunately, he in injured. But I still prefer him in the second row.  

The other lock I think England miss is Launchbury,  Not a candidate for the hybrid role when he recovers, but he also does a lot of dog work which makes the players around him better.  

In the next match, I would start Itoje and Ribbans in the second row.  Jonny Hill has been highly mediocre for England, though a good club player, plus he has that god-awful haircut which is an embarrassment to Queen and country.

Tim Rodber

Actually thinking about it Easter used to take a lot of lineout ball, but it is not something I'd say he was a specialist at

Moody used to jump as well. Took the final line-out in the wc 03

Think England over-react on the three line-out jumpers because of Peter O'Mahoney playing a blinder against us in 2017. One match.

We didn't need 3 jumpers v New Zealand in 2019 - they tried 4 and didn't get anywhere.

Missing Kruis, Launchbury and Lawes at the same time is having more of an impact than not having a back-row option. Think that would effect many teams to be missing players like that. They would walk into most teams in the world.

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Looking back on England teams with really good back row players who were also very good jumpers with some real height, there really aren't many I can recall.  From back in their heyday, players who were actual wing forwards, I can only think of Tom Croft (6'6", 17.5 st) and Tom Wood (6'5", 17.7 st).  And these guys were really good all over the pitch, not just lineout gurus.  I'm sure there were others, but these guys stick out for me.  

Maybe the hybrid approach is an attempt to replicate those players impact on the game, But the only real effective hybrid now is Lawes, who does a lot of the critical dog work the team needs.  Unfortunately, he in injured. But I still prefer him in the second row.  

The other lock I think England miss is Launchbury,  Not a candidate for the hybrid role when he recovers, but he also does a lot of dog work which makes the players around him better.  

In the next match, I would start Itoje and Ribbans in the second row.  Jonny Hill has been highly mediocre for England, though a good club player, plus he has that god-awful haircut which is an embarrassment to Queen and country.

Tim Rodber

Actually thinking about it Easter used to take a lot of lineout ball, but it is not something I'd say he was a specialist at

Jeez.  Tim Rodber.  As a Saints guy, how on earth could I not remember Timmy Rodber?  Tall, played lock, plus 6 or 8.  And played each position like to the manor born.  One of the best Saints I ever saw.  

Good catch with Easter, too.  I don't think he was as tall, but used to take a fair amount of lineout ball for Quins.  I remember he was their clutch, go to lineout receiver.  

Just remembered Martin Corry for Leicester.  Mostly second row, if my addled mind is still functioning.  But also ran out or subbed in at 6 or 8.  

There must have been more, but this is a list of some very good players.

Corry was primarily a back rower wasn't he?

BamBam wrote:Corry was primarily a back rower wasn't he?

The Tigers fans should confirm, but I think so. I think he was in the back row in the 2001 Lions tour.