Wales vs England - Build Up/Match Thread - 27-2-21

[TightHEAD]

First topic message reminder :

Wales v England

27th Feb

KO 16:46

England:

Daly;
Watson,
Slade,
Farrell,
May;
Ford,
Youngs;
M Vunipola,
George,
Sinckler,
Itoje,
Hill,
Wilson,
Curry,
B Vunipola.

Replacements: Cowan-Dickie, Genge, Stuart, Ewels, Martin, Earl, Robson, Malins.

WALES

1. Wyn Jones (32 Caps)
2. Ken Owens (79 Caps)
3. Tomas Francis (54 Caps)
4. Adam Beard (23 Caps)
5. Alun Wyn Jones (CAPT) (145 Caps)
6. Josh Navidi (25 Caps)
7. Justin Tipuric (82 Caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (83 Caps)
9. Kieran Hardy (3 Caps)
10. Dan Biggar (89 Caps)
11. Josh Adams (29 Caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (85 Caps)
13. George North (99 Caps)
14. Louis Rees-Zammit (6 Caps)
15. Liam Williams (68 Caps)

Replacements:

16. Elliot Dee (34 Caps)
17. Rhodri Jones (19 Caps)
18. Leon Brown (14 Caps)
19. Cory Hill (29 Caps)
20. James Botham (4 Caps)
21. Gareth Davies (59 Caps)
22. Callum Sheedy (6 Caps)
23. Uilisi Halaholo (1 Cap)

[LordDowlais]

But you have said that Itoje was harshly dealt with by the officials 3 times, when as you say, you know the laws.

You cannot jump across the lineout, you cannot stray offside, and you cannot deliberately knock the ball on, all three things that Itoje did, but you in all your authority say the calls were harsh.

Well come on upholder of the rugby laws, are they pens or not ?

It was the maul I was talking about not the lineout jump across. I've said what i think on those calls.

I will ask again, to the letter of the law were they pens ?

[No 7&1/2]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

[MonkeyMan]

For all the talk about the ref yesterday, one thing actually stood out for me, and that was the general behaviour of the English players, all the back slapping when a decision went their way, the goading ect...

And again...Maro Itoje. England won a penalty on the half way like and he put both his hands in the air and cheered..."YEAH" or something as if England had just won the world cup

Nothing wrong with some passion. But a player like AWJ or would have done a little fist pump and then rallied the forwards for the impending line out in the opposition half

I don't want to seem like I am targeting the guy. Take away his high penalty count and he is a great player. But I know people who bigged him up as potential England and Lions captain. He doesn't have the discipline or maturity for that

[TightHEAD]

Everyone knocking Maro but for me those penalties against him were harsh. He was on side and only move when the ball was lifted.

[Heaf]

For one of them for sure ... and if he was off-side then both teams were off-side at every ruck ...

[LordDowlais]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

Still side stepping I see.

So you are allowed to be offside, and you are allowed to knock the ball on deliberately now are you ? Also, you would argue that the maul one was ?

So I will ask, as you seem to be the lawman on here, and please take this next sentence to note. Due to the letter of the law, were they penalties ?

[LordDowlais]

For one of them for sure ... and if he was off-side then both teams were off-side at every ruck ...

I agree, both teams pushed their luck in that regard.

[No 7&1/2]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

Still side stepping I see.

So you are allowed to be offside, and you are allowed to knock the ball on deliberately now are you ? Also, you would argue that the maul one was ?

So I will ask, as you seem to be the lawman on here, and please take this next sentence to note. Due to the letter of the law, were they penalties ?

I didnt side step. No you're not allowed to be offside. You can target the ball.
You could give a penalty straight away for the maul one yes however the previous maul for england tipuric was not once but twice asked to move without a penalty given.

[LordDowlais]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

Still side stepping I see.

So you are allowed to be offside, and you are allowed to knock the ball on deliberately now are you ? Also, you would argue that the maul one was ?

So I will ask, as you seem to be the lawman on here, and please take this next sentence to note. Due to the letter of the law, were they penalties ?

I didnt side step. No you're not allowed to be offside. You can target the ball.
You could give a penalty straight away for the maul one yes however the previous maul for england tipuric was not once but twice asked to move without a penalty given.

Again, you keep bring other instances up, side stepping. The previous maul should have been a penalty. But that's not what I am asking.

I am asking, the three instances you thought were harsh, to the letter of the law were they pens ? A simple yes or no would suffice.

[mikey_dragon]

A clip from an article in the Guardian

"Well, Gaüzère is an experienced referee, has been in Test rugby for the best part of decade. Which also means there is a little history here. Back in 2018 Eddie Jones was so offended by the way Gaüzère had handled a game between Wales and Scotland that he said publicly that he had brought the issue up with World Rugby.

A year later, in 2019, Gaüzère was the referee for a World Cup warm-up between England and Wales. He let Biggar take a quick penalty in the run-up to George North’s match-winning try while England were waiting for Anthony Watson – who had just been sent to the sin-bin – to leave the pitch. It wasn’t too dissimilar to Adams’s try this time.

“Maybe the yellow card should have been shown to the referee,” Jones said after that match. This time he bit his lip – so hard it was almost a surprise he could speak at all for the bleeding. But in a way he didn’t really need to say anything. Gaüzère’s performance spoke for itself."

Maybe getting his retribution.

Same ref for both fixtures, same fly-half, and still England let it happen? And yes probably a bit of the ref telling Eddie that maybe it’s not a good idea to run his big gob off all the time.

[Heaf]

I guess what he's saying LD (without wishing to put words into his mouth) is they weren't harsh in terms of the laws but in context it was harsh to penalise him for something that had been let go shortly before. As with a lot of complaints re officiating it's often not so much about whether a pen was technically correct or not, rather a lack of consistency in application.

[LordDowlais]

I guess what he's saying LD (without wishing to put words into his mouth) is they weren't harsh in terms of the laws but in context it was harsh to penalise him for something that had been let go shortly before.  As with a lot of complaints re officiating it's often not so much about whether a pen was technically correct or not, rather a lack of consistency in application.

Yep I agree.

But he has been moaning about how unfair to England the ref was, when in regards to Itoje the ref was only following the laws, albeit it might not have been consistently following them, but he was following them none the less. So if wants to bang on about the laws of the game, he cannot complain. He also dismissed Shifty's point of view out of hand, you cannot have it both ways.

Also, I would agree that Itoje was targeted by the ref, but he brings it on himself with his behaviour.

[Heaf]

That does raise an issue though - the ref shouldn't be targeting a player or team just because they don't like them for some reason (eg being a bit of a plonker sometimes over celebrating or having a gobby coach). The officials' job is to apply the laws evenly to both teams, so if they let something go for one team they should do the same for the other.

[No 7&1/2]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

Still side stepping I see.

So you are allowed to be offside, and you are allowed to knock the ball on deliberately now are you ? Also, you would argue that the maul one was ?

So I will ask, as you seem to be the lawman on here, and please take this next sentence to note. Due to the letter of the law, were they penalties ?

I didnt side step. No you're not allowed to be offside. You can target the ball.
You could give a penalty straight away for the maul one yes however the previous maul for england tipuric was not once but twice asked to move without a penalty given.

Again, you keep bring other instances up, side stepping. The previous maul should have been a penalty. But that's not what I am asking.

I am asking, the three instances you thought were harsh, to the letter of the law were they pens ? A simple yes or no would suffice.

I've answered in the quote. In fact the point of the 3 instances were to give you the examples you requested on harshness.

[No 7&1/2]

I guess what he's saying LD (without wishing to put words into his mouth) is they weren't harsh in terms of the laws but in context it was harsh to penalise him for something that had been let go shortly before.  As with a lot of complaints re officiating it's often not so much about whether a pen was technically correct or not, rather a lack of consistency in application.

Yep I agree.

But he has been moaning about how unfair to England the ref was, when in regards to Itoje the ref was only following the laws, albeit it might not have been consistently following them, but he was following them none the less. So if wants to bang on about the laws of the game, he cannot complain. He also dismissed Shifty's point of view out of hand, you cannot have it both ways.

Also, I would agree that Itoje was targeted by the ref, but he brings it on himself with his behaviour.

I can dismiss shifty straight away as he wasnt talking about the law. He actually said not to look at release/hands of George and simply look where the ball ends up. That's opposite of the law. So yes, I dismissed it. I can fully accept the debate on whether that is peoples preferred option however. It's not the current law though.

[whatahitson]

Anyone spot Sinckler giving Wyn Jones some verbals on the ground after the Youngs try? A penny to hear that conversation:D

I saw that too I thought the scrums were a mess in all honesty poorly refereed both teams were allowed to whell but it all got lost under the bigger refereeing issues.

[whatahitson]

The water carriers are not actually allowed on the pitch during a penalty. Only during an injury or a try being scored. See link, section at the bottom of the page:

https://officiating.worldrugby.org/?module=2&section=25&subsection=99&page=2162&language=en

So I guess the question is whether the ref in this instance is meant to stop the game and clear the water carriers before the game can continue (and in doing so the opposition water carriers have ‘won’ in their bid to control the tempo of the game and slow things down) or whether he’s able to ignore their presence and restart the game as they shouldn’t be there and be allowed to slow down play?

That is interesting the fact Farrell said to the referee about the water suggests maybe England were using it as a tactic to slow down the game and Wales raised with with Gauzere in the week before the game?

[whatahitson]

Matt Dawson is laying the boot in:-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56226838

He's becoming tabloid. It's very sad to see.

[LordDowlais]

Arguably the maul one was as I said however tipuric had got away with 2 tellings to move. The other 2not for me.

Still side stepping I see.

So you are allowed to be offside, and you are allowed to knock the ball on deliberately now are you ? Also, you would argue that the maul one was ?

So I will ask, as you seem to be the lawman on here, and please take this next sentence to note. Due to the letter of the law, were they penalties ?

I didnt side step. No you're not allowed to be offside. You can target the ball.
You could give a penalty straight away for the maul one yes however the previous maul for england tipuric was not once but twice asked to move without a penalty given.

Again, you keep bring other instances up, side stepping. The previous maul should have been a penalty. But that's not what I am asking.

I am asking, the three instances you thought were harsh, to the letter of the law were they pens ? A simple yes or no would suffice.

I've answered in the quote. In fact the point of the 3 instances were to give you the examples you requested on harshness.

No you havent. Yes or No ?

[No 7&1/2]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

[doctor_grey]

Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

I really don't remember Itoje being this kind of penalty machine before.  Am I mistaken?  Or has something changed, do you all think?

He plays to the edge. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you get pinged inaccurately.

Yeah, I think one of the things which makes him a good player is playing a bit on the edge. But I simply can't remember him drawing all those pens, either at club level or internationally, and being considered a liability from that standpoint. Yesterday was a problem.

[whatahitson]

This is one of the most crazy forward passes I've ever seen.

Look at The English hookers position as he passes, and look at the grass pallet lines.  
Note the position of the linesman, perfectly in line.

The second picture, shows where Watson catches the ball.  
That's almost two human body lengths forward, and you've got some English complaining about being treated unfairly...  

The first Welsh try people can talk about, whats correct and what's not, but that's conclusively a forward pass for England's first try and an unfair try against Wales, unless england are playing American Football of course.

This is just another reason for the 'grey area' with LRZ's knock on. Did he really knock it forward or was it just the momentum of trying to catch it before he kicked it backwards?

[No 7&1/2]

As per this on and off convo with LD some pretty harsh. You've surely got to play to how you think things will go rather than become passive?

[LordDowlais]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

So two were not against the laws ?

So I take it you a referring to the offside and the deliberate knock on ?

So you are allowed to do those two things then are you ?

Tipuric has nothing to do with this, so why you keep bringing him up is a non starter.

Itoje was offside, and he did knock on, on purpose, so I guess you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

[R!skysports]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

So two were not against the laws ?

So I take it you a referring to the offside and the deliberate knock on ?

So you are allowed to do those two things then are you ?

Tipuric has nothing to do with this, so why you keep bringing him up is a non starter.

Itoje was offside, and he did knock on, on purpose, so I guess you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

Did he not strip if from the scrum hands hand ? Which I believe is allowed

[whatahitson]

Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

I really don't remember Itoje being this kind of penalty machine before.  Am I mistaken?  Or has something changed, do you all think?

Yes, mistaken IMO.

From the first game Itoje has been used by Jones as a pest who competes for everything. It started with aggressive counter rucking in 2016 and now he is allowed to challenge every point of contact where other players are not. Why? Because he is so good.

If his chargedown yesterday leads to 7 points, or one of his chargedowns on Ali Price against Scotland led to a try, it would counteract all the other penalties he accumulates in other areas of the pitch by pushing the boundaries of the law. That's not even factoring in the impact he makes at rucks and mauls when he gets away with pushing boundaries. That is how good he is. He is a player who can create tries just from competing at the contact without challenging for the ball.

The problem is people pick up on his penalty count now because England are losing games when they have mostly won them under Jones.

Itoje isn't a problem he is world class yes he needs to learn but I thought the offside penalty was nonsense and not 'harsh' it was just wrong. Everything else was fair. He pushed the boundaries, he got penalised.

England's problem isn't penalty count per se. It's forward dominance. I think Jones might be playing a game that underpowers the pack slightly so they can learn how to win on the back foot, like against a South Africa for example, but eventually they will HAVE TO sort out the pack particularly the set piece. Vunipola was lucky with a few scrum wheels yesterday and the lineout defence has been atrocious in 2 games now Scotland and Wales. Jonny Hill has not impressed IMO and Itoje is compensating by pushing the boundaries even more which leads to more penalties. Does Jones has George Kruis' mobile number?

[LordDowlais]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

So two were not against the laws ?

So I take it you a referring to the offside and the deliberate knock on ?

So you are allowed to do those two things then are you ?

Tipuric has nothing to do with this, so why you keep bringing him up is a non starter.

Itoje was offside, and he did knock on, on purpose, so I guess you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

Did he not strip if from the scrum hands hand ? Which I believe is allowed

No he was off his feet diving towards Hardy with one arm outstretched and slapped the pass out of his hands as Hardy was passing, so unless his intentions were to do something else, it was very much deliberate.

[R!skysports]

Are people really saying it’s poor sportsmanship for player to start playing after the ref says time on and blows his whistle?  Seriously?!  Is Biggar meant to shout to Farrell and say ‘Owen, we’re starting now, the ref has blown his whistle, and I’m going to take a quick tap and go.  Brace yourself’.  Was it poor sportsmanship for Hardy to take a tap and go and score a try from that in the 2nd half too?  After all, Daly had his back turned and the defence was not set.  

Nonsense.  Poor sportsmanship might have been doing it before time was on.  But not afterwards.

Yes poor sportsmanship ship. He rushed the ref and then took advantage

The red was still 100% to blame
After you stop the clock you need to be ensure both teams are ready especially after telling one to talk to his players

Sidling up to one team and then blowing the whistle when you know only only team is ready as the rest were still in the huddle he asked them
To do

I am not even English but I would be 100% fuming at that

[whatahitson]

Lord, i don't really agree with you that celebrating forcing the opposition in making a mistake is predominantly English, all countries do it. I also do not see it as goading either, my opinion though.

The reason, again my opinion, as to why the referee penalised England a lot yesterday was due to Farrell annoying him within the first few minutes of the game. Many of the penalties awarded against England were very 50/50 (especially from Itoje) at best but were given against England as the referee was already upset with Farrell and England.

Once you lose the referee, you can expect to rack up the penalties. This was an England on field leadership issue and nothing to do with any perceived goading.

That is a major issue with Farrell as captain in my opinion he is very abrupt in the way he speaks. That's just generally as well and the heavy northern accent makes his words sound clipped as well. He sounds annoyed in his normal speaking voice if you aren't used to the accent so he tends to come across as quite confrontational, particularly if English isn't your first language as the referee yesterday wasn't.

England could do with someone a little more charismatic and personal taking the captain mantel on. At least in terms of talking to the ref. Farrell can be leading the chat to the players but in the current game communication with the officials is increasing important. Not that I can think of an easy solution to that.

Pat Sanderson was a crap captain from the north too. Robshaw and Vickery were pants as well.

Maybe we just need to pick Midlanders like Martin Johnson?

Does Underhill count? Gloucester is basically the Midlands.

[No 7&1/2]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

So two were not against the laws ?

So I take it you a referring to the offside and the deliberate knock on ?

So you are allowed to do those two things then are you ?

Tipuric has nothing to do with this, so why you keep bringing him up is a non starter.

Itoje was offside, and he did knock on, on purpose, so I guess you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

Yeah that's what I dont agree with. Well done for getting here.

[LordDowlais]

I have. 2 weren't. 1 was however was harsh given tipuric got away with a worse version of the offence mins earlier.

So two were not against the laws ?

So I take it you a referring to the offside and the deliberate knock on ?

So you are allowed to do those two things then are you ?

Tipuric has nothing to do with this, so why you keep bringing him up is a non starter.

Itoje was offside, and he did knock on, on purpose, so I guess you are looking at things through rose tinted glasses.

Yeah that's what I dont agree with. Well done for getting here.

So you do not know the laws then ?

[No 7&1/2]

Yup I do.

Long way to go as you're annoyed I'm right about forward passes!

[LordDowlais]

well obviously you do not as you think that Itoje did not do anything wrong.

[No 7&1/2]

In those instances.

[LordDowlais]

In those instances.

So I will ask again, do you think the those instances were penalties to the letter of the law ? Again, a simple yes or no will do.

[No 7&1/2]

Why do you want me to repeat myself all the time? The offside and pen for deliberate knock on.

And given his interpretation for tipuric the joining at the side was incredibly harsh.

[LordDowlais]

Why do you want me to repeat myself all the time? The offside and pen for deliberate knock on.

And given his interpretation for tipuric the joining at the side was incredibly harsh.

The only person repeating is you.

You keep brining Tipiric in for some reason.

The deliberate knock on, was that within the laws.

The offside, was that within the laws.

Both were called correctly, so why can't you answer ? Yes or No.

[LordDowlais]

Anyway I bored of your flip flapping, it entertained me for the afternoon, but now, you are boring me. You will never answer properly as you cannot.

Good evening.

[No 7&1/2]

Again. I have answered. The offside and deliberate knock ons weren't pens.

I brought the 3rd in there as despite thinking I'd have flagged it there was a worse one just before that wasnt. Given that itoje was on the harsh side.

[No 7&1/2]

Anyway I bored of your flip flapping, it entertained me for the afternoon, but now, you are boring me. You will never answer properly as you cannot.

Good evening.

You just dont appear to understand english. Have a good one.

[LordDowlais]

BBC condemns online abuse of Six Nations reporter Sonja McLaughlan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56230006

Whats all this about ?

The RFU have come out in support of her, were there some unsavory fans on twitter or something ?

[LordDowlais]

Just read some of the comments on twitter, there are some real half heads on there.

[mikey_dragon]

BBC condemns online abuse of Six Nations reporter Sonja McLaughlan

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/56230006

Whats all this about ?

The RFU have come out in support of her, were there some unsavory fans on twitter or something ?

Because of her post-match interview prowess. Yikes she was poor. I think she's always been poor so I'm heavily in favour of people criticising her work. Farrell dealt with it quite well I thought.

[LordDowlais]

I remember when Wales won the grand slam in 2005, Ryan Jones was jumping up and down lifting the trophy and she was trying to ask him questions mid celebration.

But she does not deserve that abuse, I see our very own pleb PhilBB has layed the boot in, so classy is Phil. :

[doctor_grey]

Here's my point of view, which I suppose puts me in the minority again.  These immediate post game interviews happen with almost every game in every sport.  Everyone who plays, especially captains and so on, know how to maintain even after a crushing loss.  I have been on the sidelines of pro games as a doc and watched many of these immediately before and afterwards.  A lot of the times the players on the losing sides are really cranked up, but still mostly maintain because it comes with the territory.  And for captains and other team leaders, it comes with the responsibility.  

Most of the time the questions are like puff pieces, but sometimes the interviewer is trying top get to the 'what went wrong'.  This is all fair game in sport today.  Her questions were pretty tough, but not really out of bounds from what I have seen, mostly in the NFL.  The  people gong after her on line are imbeciles, at the most polite.  Any losing captain's job is to take it like a professional.  And maybe, just maybe, take some responsibility on himself.  It's not just being professional, it shows class.  These interviews, whether they have any value or not are part of sport today.  If someone can't suck it up for 60 whole seconds, it doesn't say much about them, does it.

[Northgrill]

Still can’t believe how poor Ford was getting across for the first try. Where was Watson? They have to be more aware like May was on the other side.

[majesticimperialman]

I think it is disgusting the abuse Sonya as been getting, just for doing her job.

[No9]

I cant believe you lot are still discussing forward pass or not...

It came back off LRZ leg and went back and hit the english player who passed it forward (or technically back as England hit it last)... So decision was a good one.

Also, the first try was good. Ref called time off, gave Farrell plenty of time to talk to his boys, then blew the whistle for time back on. Only ones at fault where England not paying attention to the ref. Play the whistle boys...

End result Wales won... live with it. If not, your likely to get tagged with whinging pomms tag.

As for Sonya, her questions may be lame, but she is doing her job and being insulted for that on social media is low, very low...

Right, I’m off to watch the highlights again... What a great game it was... ...

[TJ]

On O'Sullivans questions. I thought she was bang out of order clearly being very provocative attempting to get Farrell to say something he should not. I cannot stand Farrell but his answers to her provocative questions were absolutely spot on. Model pro stuff. That of course does not excuse the on line abuse but live by the sword and die by it

[formerly known as Sam]

On O'Sullivans questions.  I thought she was bang out of order clearly being very provocative attempting to get Farrell to say something he should not.  I cannot stand Farrell but his answers to her provocative questions were absolutely spot on.  Model pro stuff.  That of course does not excuse the on line abuse but live by the sword and die by it

She was very direct but there's a short amount of time allotted per interview and she asked about the topics all the fans were discussing. I'd have probably asked a more general question first to ease into the interview but her job was to give the chance for the two captains to weigh in on the controversial decisions. Just gave them the chance and they chose the replies they did.

The stuff on Twitter aimed at her and Genge is pathetic. There's a small minority that either need to get a life or not drink so much before spouting rubbish on social media. I hope their details are passed to the authorities when threats have been made or insults have gone too far.

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