England's Winter of Cricket 2020/21

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Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Wake up to hear Swann doing an Aussie impression. Can this be over in two days again?

Is that what it was? Couldn't fool me...

p.s. it was a 'nowhere in particular' accent.

king_carlos wrote:Pant gone. Finally England get the breakthrough. England need to wrap the India innings up for around 280, a lead of 75. Then bat out of their skin.

Going to need something special from someone now with the bat for us...can be done, but fear a collapse against Axar is the much more likely outcome

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Pant gone. Finally England get the breakthrough. England need to wrap the India innings up for around 280, a lead of 75. Then bat out of their skin.

Going to need something special from someone now with the bat for us...can be done, but fear a collapse against Axar is the much more likely outcome

My thoughts exactly. It's the usual Root or Stokes need to make a big ton situation. Both have bowled and look ragged though.

king_carlos wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Pant gone. Finally England get the breakthrough. England need to wrap the India innings up for around 280, a lead of 75. Then bat out of their skin.

Going to need something special from someone now with the bat for us...can be done, but fear a collapse against Axar is the much more likely outcome

My thoughts exactly. It's the usual Root or Stokes need to make a big ton situation. Both have bowled and look ragged though.

Yeah Root could do without being in by about the 7th over!

Not sure why Root is bowling though. Leach is still on the field , is he not ? And I know Bess has been off form today but I'd still reckon he'd be a chance against the late order : at least Pant isn't there any more.
I normally think Root underbowls himself but I'm not sure his bowling today has warranted 13 overs.

The poor old horse , Stokes saddles up again. This is cruelty to animals...

Fifty for Sundar another vital contributor.

275/7

king_carlos wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Pant gone. Finally England get the breakthrough. England need to wrap the India innings up for around 280, a lead of 75. Then bat out of their skin.

Going to need something special from someone now with the bat for us...can be done, but fear a collapse against Axar is the much more likely outcome

My thoughts exactly. It's the usual Root or Stokes need to make a big ton situation. Both have bowled and look ragged though.

Sadly, I'm with you both. Fear moving day has arrived early.

Btw, I go along with earlier comments about different batting styles to be admired and enjoyed. Understandably, that chat was mainly contrasting the technically correct (Kohli, Root, Williamson) against the explosive (Pant, Pietersen, Gilchrist). I would also give a shout out to another favourite of mine - the support act. Call it by another name as you may prefer - the back row of the chorus or riding shotgun. Whatever the term, so valuable and important to the team as demonstrated today by Sundar. A thoroughly deserved half-century and he's still going.

Nice to see the management team have wrecked Dom Bess all for the sake of giving Moeen yet another undeserved chance. He didn't bowl brilliantly in the first test but the whole rotation policy has been a failure.

The rotation policy can't be properly judged until the end of 2021 in my opinion. It's a response to having 18 Tests including tours of India and Australia plus the World T20 in one year. An insane schedule even before throwing in covid and the bubbles. Had England not rotated the star players would almost certainly get burnt out.

Once 2021 is over and the dust settles we can look back on how that panned out. If it's a disaster of a year it will have failed. If we win both home Test series, go deep in the World T20 and challenge well in the Ashes then it may well have worked.

As things stand even losing this Test would represent a disastrous start to the year. India are a fantastic team at home, this was always going to be a massive challenge.

Guildford

How did you get through the whole post without naming Larry Gomes

There would be little point in Pant's innings if the other end had just seen a steady fall of wickets, but Sundar has done a terrific job in support, exactly what his team needed. Getting more adventurous after Pant's dismissal, and cashing in on tired bowlers late in the day.

Soul Requiem wrote:Nice to see the management team have wrecked Dom Bess all for the sake of giving Moeen yet another undeserved chance. He didn't bowl brilliantly in the first test but the whole rotation policy has been a failure.

I do agree with this up to a point. There was a case for "spelling" Bess after his rather ragged second innings efforts in Chennai. But (a) Picking Moeen for just one match before he was due to go home seems a bit pointless. And (b) the handling of the change - rather publicly announcing that Bess was "dropped because he needed to go away and work on his game " despite having 17 wickets over three matches - seems almost calculated to do a young fellow's confidence a major blow. And of course , it came back to bite them in a sense as they were reluctant to bring him back for game three when another spinner was needed...plus his ongoing troubles today.

He shouldn't be regarded as "wrecked " though. Has done England no good here and now ; but Bess is young enough to learn and come back in the future if he has the heart for it.

I don't love the rotation policy but accept it has been necessary in the present situation. This wasn't really part of the rotation thing though.

Bess' day finishes no better ...thought he had a wicket at last only to see an inside edge on review...sums up the day for England

Long way back from here. But all credit to Pant and Sundar

king_carlos wrote:The rotation policy can't be properly judged until the end of 2021 in my opinion. It's a response to having 18 Tests including tours of India and Australia plus the World T20 in one year. An insane schedule even before throwing in covid and the bubbles. Had England not rotated the star players would almost certainly get burnt out.

Once 2021 is over and the dust settles we can look back on how that panned out. If it's a disaster of a year it will have failed. If we win both home Test series, go deep in the World T20 and challenge well in the Ashes then it may well have worked.

As things stand even losing this Test would represent a disastrous start to the year. India are a fantastic team at home, this was always going to be a massive challenge.

You take it on a series by series basis. If Buttler and Bairstow are available for part of a series then they're available for all of it, if they then miss series later in the year that is understandable but chopping and changing in the middle of a series makes no sense whatsoever. I wouldn't have picked Buttler for Sri Lanka and used Foakes whilst i'd have ensured Bairstow was available the whole tour. You can then select Buttler for the whole of the English summer. Rotating the seamers in India is more understandable but the batsman and frontline spinners need stability. I'd have left Burns at home once he wasn't available for Sri Lanka, once Crawley is injured you then open with Bairstow.

A fantastic days cricket. Just when England looked liked they'd clawed their way back on day 2 it swung away from them once again, a bit like T3 but in a less diabolical fashion.

Another very important knock from Rohit ate up the pressure then Pant played a wonderful innings. The first 2 hours Pant was at the crease for he played so well under a lot of pressure. He played with restraint, took the runs when available and dug in until the ball was older and the bowlers tired. Then when the chance to score quickly came boy did he take it.

Washington played a very mature knock as well to make all that possible.

Whilst that was a tough final session to watch as an England fan it is great seeing two talented young players take their skills in the Test arena.

England need to wrap this up very quickly in the morning then bat all day with wickets in hand. It's a tough ask but this pitch is still playing well for the batsman.

As to the team selection for England here : the lack of another seamer has certainly hurt them in this last session. There was always a risk that if one bowler had an off day they'd end up overworking the rest - in truth the hot conditions might have done for them even if Bess had been on song today - but but the alternative would have seen no Lawrence at seven and his forty six was rather handy yesterday

In fact (assuming they don't redeem themselves with a massive second innings) the blame for this likely defeat will rest with the batsmen , who simply failed to take advantage of winning the toss despite being reinforced to the tune of seven specialist bats plus the keeper ...I reckon the bowlers did a decent job today until that late partnership proved a bridge too far for them.

At least we are into a third day this week

And of course ant COULD have been given out in the over before tea, getting a slightly generous umpire's call. May well have been a different game.

Oh, and you can tell this is a decent cricket wicket by the lack of comments about it. Yes, it's of typical Indian characteristics lacking pace and with a bit of turn even early on, but there are runs to be had and wickets for both seam and spin. England didn't score enough, and contrived for a couple of slightly unlucky dismissals, but that's down to the players not the surface.

Soul Requiem wrote:

king_carlos wrote:The rotation policy can't be properly judged until the end of 2021 in my opinion. It's a response to having 18 Tests including tours of India and Australia plus the World T20 in one year. An insane schedule even before throwing in covid and the bubbles. Had England not rotated the star players would almost certainly get burnt out.

Once 2021 is over and the dust settles we can look back on how that panned out. If it's a disaster of a year it will have failed. If we win both home Test series, go deep in the World T20 and challenge well in the Ashes then it may well have worked.

As things stand even losing this Test would represent a disastrous start to the year. India are a fantastic team at home, this was always going to be a massive challenge.

You take it on a series by series basis. If Buttler and Bairstow are available for part of a series then they're available for all of it, if they then miss series later in the year that is understandable but chopping and changing in the middle of a series makes no sense whatsoever. I wouldn't have picked Buttler for Sri Lanka and used Foakes whilst i'd have ensured Bairstow was available the whole tour. You can then select Buttler for the whole of the English summer. Rotating the seamers in India is more understandable but the batsman and frontline spinners need stability. I'd have left Burns at home once he wasn't available for Sri Lanka, once Crawley is injured you then open with Bairstow.

Hindsight's a great thing and with the Sri Lanka series being a fairly easy couple of wins I would now have preferred Buttler here but when he Stokes was rested for Sri Lank I was glad that Buttler played those Tests to keep a bit of leadership alongside Root.

Bairstow has been my one gripe with the rotation so far as I too would have preferred him to play (or be available to play) all 6 Tests this winter then miss the ODI and T20's against India. He's not that likely to feature over the summer I don't think.

I honestly don't think it would have made too much difference though. India a very good side, especially at home and have been too good for us. Winning the first Test was a hell of an effort from Root. Since then the reliance on Root against spin has been laid bare, as has the lack of spinners for England.

Overall I think they've done a decent job with selection so far in tough circumstances. Being in bubbles for so long must be mentally exhausting for the guys with young families especially. It's not like their families back home have things perfect at the minute either.

king carlos

Last test was definitely a wrong selection, although didn't make much difference given the way the gam panned out. This match there was certainly a justification in picking the team they have - how much help another seamer would have been today, especially a genuine quick, is unknown. Worth more than Lawrence's runs? Probably not.

I think some of the criticism of the selection / rotation policy isn't taking into account the oddity of the current situation. Also, I think the selectors are wise to take particular care over Bairstow given what happened with his father - Obviously I am not privy to any information on Johnny's mental health, but a family history is an indicator of increased susceptibility to depression.

KP_fan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

That doesn't mean it will though. You'll need to check with KP-f now for the scores at the end of days 2 and 3.

I expect India will finish about 270 to 280 for 7 tomm
and then 330 a.o on 3rd morning
Eng will get another near 200 ish odd in second inning finishing on D3 or just start of D4
India wraps it up by end of first session on D4 by 9 wickets or so

Off-course any one of 4 England spinners  i.e Root, Lawrence, Leach or Bess can can throw water over that script by picking up a 5-fer tomm morning on this non-turner

Close ...wow...I have surprised myself
A few more runs owing to slightly higher weight of Pant-runs coming at a faster rate...than I expected.

India has a BIG Problem...their all condition proven BIG THREE Kohli, Rahane & Puajara...are all out of form.
India has a BIGGER positive.....that inspite of their Big three floundering India is finding enuf runs from the top and lower middle order to overcome top sides like Aus and Eng.
I had picked Sundar as very very promising and was appalled to see Kohli leave him out so nonchalantly......yet again Sundar stands up and if he gets a decent spell with the ball he can easily pick 3 wkts too in the second inning.

What can you say about Pant...a match winner in the class of Gilchrist, talent beyond words  coupled with courage/ temperament

A word on England....they fought well....the old and the semit-fit pros Anderson & Stokes picked themselves up one last time trying to carry a mountain on their shoulders.....and succeeded keeping Eng ahead for half a day.
BUT the 3rd bowler ( Leach) was OK....and nothing beyond him..... the no demon pitch exposed the "part-timer-ness" of Root & "Pedestrian-ness"  of  Bess
Stokes & Anderson had to tire....and I bet they have drained off all their energies in this inning...won't be able to bowl like this if the game went close in second inning.
If hypothetically Eng had Stone and Moeen in the playing-11 the game would have been much tighter and they could have squeezed a win here.
NOW...it's gone for Eng (per my script)...a 9 to 10 wkt win awaits India....which could be also an inning win if Ishant and Siraj wag their tails with Sundar.

dummy_half wrote:king carlos

Last test was definitely a wrong selection, although didn't make much difference given the way the gam panned out. This match there was certainly a justification in picking the team they have - how much help another seamer would have been today, especially a genuine quick, is unknown. Worth more than Lawrence's runs? Probably not.

I think some of the criticism of the selection / rotation policy isn't taking into account the oddity of the current situation. Also, I think the selectors are wise to take particular care over Bairstow given what happened with his father - Obviously I am not privy to any information on Johnny's mental health, but a family history is an indicator of increased susceptibility to depression.

I should have said squad selection there, sorry.

The XI for T3 was definitely wrong as you say.

Overall I struggle to think the squad selections have effected things too much for England though. We are lacking the spinners and batting in spinning conditions, sadly.

Jonny has always been a complicated guy. I played against him a bit in school and club cricket. Obviously a huge talent and real man against boys stuff but he could be an abrasive character and not the best sport when usually winner. By all accounts he has matured into an absolutely lovely bloke over time. What happened to his dad will obviously have had a lasting effect though.

Can't blame KP_fan for crowing over his second day prediction

But asserting that picking Stone and Moeen (who actually went home weeks ago ) would have made some serious difference is just that - an unprovable assertion. If nothing else changed England - without Lawrence - might have been dismissed for 150. And we don't know how they would have bowled...

Anyway it isn't quite over yet - though I think the odds on a fairly comfortable Indian win are looking pretty good right now. Still theoretically possible for England to more or less match whatever India score and go on from there...unlikely I admit.

Even so I am somehow less distressed by the England performance here than last week. Batting was again a serious fail - arguably worse because the pitch was so much better. But to fight back as well as they did with the ball , although there must have been a temptation to say "here we go again" at the end of an arduous tour , speaks to their character at least. Tackling India on their own turf was always going to be tough ; and I fear this England team is still a fair bit short of top class - and will remain so unless and until a few of these "promising" young players stop promising and start turning in regular good performances. Key there is they are young and hopefully this tour will have taught them a bit...

As it is a 3-1 defeat isn't a total disgrace ; though I do hope they don't completely fade away and lose by an innings tomorrow ! I don't think I will see much of that anyway as our own First XI is in a semi final tomorrow so I wish all of you another good day of cricket watching...

alfie wrote:
But asserting that picking Stone and Moeen (who actually went home weeks ago ) would have made some serious difference is just that - an unprovable assertion.  

Hypothetically was the operative word in my assertion & by definition its hypothesis because its unproven

Soul Requiem wrote:Nice to see the management team have wrecked Dom Bess all for the sake of giving Moeen yet another undeserved chance. He didn't bowl brilliantly in the first test but the whole rotation policy has been a failure.

I would very much disagree that Bess is "wrecked" - thought he bowled far far better today than he did in the second innings in the first test (where he was Mason Crane-esque). Luck went against him, and he did bowl poorly ultimately today...but he's 23! If a bad day or being dropped wrecks him, then he was never going to amount to anything in test cricket anyways

I think the rotation policy is well trodden ground...I am in favour of it, but it certainly has had its flaws. I feared when he went home after T1 (even if he only contributed mine scores in that game) they'd miss Buttler's batting in particular for this series, and they have done...but it is what it is. At worst, coming out of the winter with three wins and three losses, is a good one for my money.

And they're not quite out of this game yet! If they can somehow muster matching the Indian effort in this innings, tomorrow and into the 4th day...and set India around 200 to win, then it's very much game on. I think we all very much doubt they will do that, but scoring 300 and setting a 4th innings chase certainly isn't out of the realms of possibility

One final point would once again be England's abysmal over rate. 82 overs in a day is simply poor and short changing fans. If I paid the prices for tickets in England now and only saw 82 overs with no rain delays or bad light I'd be pretty peeved.

Leach especially takes an eternity to get through his overs. Root is going to end up with demerit points and a suspension for games that England really can't afford to lose Root for. They need to speed up in the field.

king carlos

Interesting that you know Johnny a little bit. Obviously he had far from an ideal upbringing.

Largely agree that the squad selection was generally about the best we could come up with (questioning whether there was a seamer too many selected). Top order is still a work in progress and top class spin bowlers are a bit thin on the ground. At least Leach has come through with his reputation enhanced, but one quality spin bowler in India is not enough. As I put earlier, it's a shame Rashid is no longer available for red ball cricket, as he'd have been a handful on these wickets

KP_fan wrote:

alfie wrote:
But asserting that picking Stone and Moeen (who actually went home weeks ago ) would have made some serious difference is just that - an unprovable assertion.  

Hypothetically was the operative word in my assertion & by definition its hypothesis because its unproven

Ha...not letting you get away with this one , KP_fan : yes you did say "hypothetically" - but in relation to the possible selection. Then you went on to say that the game would have been much tighter. So that is making something of an assumption...

Two can play at nit picking

dummy_half wrote:king carlos

Interesting that you know Johnny a little bit. Obviously he had far from an ideal upbringing.

Know would certainly be an overstatement, dummy. I was a couple of age grades below him but played against him when I first broke into the senior sides with club and school. He was playing for St Peter's and Dunnington (as well as the Yorkshire age group stuff naturally) scoring obscene amounts of runs with ease. His hand eye coordination was plain to see early on. I was a wee kid who played up the age grades due to a lack of other keepers. It did mean I got to stand up to stumps whilst Jonny blasted our captains arm-balls (sorry off-breaks) onto the roofs of the portacabins next to the ground. He's always been supremely talented.

Whilst I hold no pretenses I was ever going anywhere in cricket (most I reached was county trials) I still think playing up the age grades actually hurt my enjoyment of the game more than it helped. I went from batting up the order to being a specialist keeper coming in at 9 or 10 with the game usually done. I loved keeping but playing in sides with/against older kids I didn't know and rarely batting stunted my enjoyment a fair bit. I gave up cricket entirely from leaving school until my mid-twenties when I started playing socially again. I regret falling out of it through uni but I just wasn't enjoying it anymore by the time I left school. I have a lot of sympathy in that regard for cricket being a tough game to keep young people involved in sometimes. It's all to easy to end up being a spectator in lower level cricket.

Ho hum. If I hadn't had that knee injury I would've played for England luv. West Ham u13 vice captain I was. Another Tennents please darling.

king_carlos wrote:
Know would certainly be an overstatement, dummy. I was a couple of age grades below him but played against him when I first broke into the senior sides with club and school. He was playing for St Peter's and Dunnington (as well as the Yorkshire age group stuff naturally) scoring obscene amounts of runs with ease. His hand eye coordination was plain to see early on. I was a wee kid who played up the age grades due to a lack of other keepers. It did mean I got to stand up to stumps whilst Jonny blasted our captains arm-balls (sorry off-breaks) onto the roofs of the portacabins next to the ground. He's always been supremely talented.

Whilst I hold no pretenses I was ever going anywhere in cricket (most I reached was county trials) I still think playing up the age grades actually hurt my enjoyment of the game more than it helped. I went from batting up the order to being a specialist keeper coming in at 9 or 10 with the game usually done. I loved keeping but playing in sides with/against older kids I didn't know and rarely batting stunted my enjoyment a fair bit. I gave up cricket entirely from leaving school until my mid-twenties when I started playing socially again. I regret falling out of it through uni but I just wasn't enjoying it anymore by the time I left school. I have a lot of sympathy in that regard for cricket being a tough game to keep young people involved in sometimes. It's all to easy to end up being a spectator in lower level cricket.

I played for Linton in Kent and was on occasion coached by Paul Farbrace. I was a decent enough fast bowler when I was young who could hit a long ball but found similar to you that the overall coaching left me a bit demoralised. They and therefore me didn't know whether I should concentrate on batting or bowling instead becoming a best of neither world all rounder, persistent knee injuries from playing rugby combined with a lack of genuine talent meant I would never progress to any meaningful level. I think that things are changing now and youngsters do concentrate on one sport rather than flitting about but growing up in the 90's wasn't the best environment for youth sport in this country. My career highlight remains bowling Richie Richardson through the gate in a schools first XI match against lashings.

What baffles me about their rotation is the limited amount of players involved. Honestly, if you really feel you need to rotate, do it properly. I understand half tours - or holidays in the middle for those who play white ball - are better than prolonged stays, but half the problem is using the same players over and over.

Bairstow is a running gripe for me now. He shouldn’t be playing at all, for my money. Doing him no good short or long term.

Realistically though, the issue is playing cricket away from home is incredibly hard. India and Australia in particular are hosts who have difficult conditions to master and are also very good. The bowlers have done well, especially given the selection mistakes in nearly every game since the win, whilst the batsmen are facing some excellent spin bowling in conditions that only enhance their threat.

Whilst England haven’t prepared or executed perfectly prior to games as well as during, the teams that have won away have been elite, and this lot have the odd elite player mixed with those who haven’t the consistency to be that.

I do think they look more prepared for a tour of Australia than the last one, at least.

Oh, and if Pant is lucky then he’s got some luck with him considering how often he must be getting lucky when he plays. He’s won them the game, the lucky sod.

Some vindication today for Englands stance on Bess earlier in the series?

Batsman - Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Bairstow, Lawrence, Root, Pope
Keepers - Buttler, Foakes
Spinners - Leach, Bess, Mo
Seamers - Anderson, Broad, Wood, S Curran, Archer, Stone
Stokes's - Ben Stokes

20 players used across 6 Tests Dolph so I wouldn't say they are using that small a pool. Add in that Woakes is almost certain to become the 21st Test player used this year in the summer.

Also in the T20 squad for India series - Morgan, Billings, T Curran, Jordan, Livingstone, Malan, Rashid, Roy, Topley

So another 9 there with the ODI squad yet to be named. England could feasibly have fielded 30 players over the winter by the end of the white ball leg of this tour. So it is a decent sized player group.

Novel way of following the test today. Couldn't watch it live, so decided to ignore the Internet for the morning/early afternoon and wait for the highlights on More4. 

Overall, it appears to have been a highly frustrating day for England. They were close to establishing control in the test on multiple occasions - 41/3, 80/4 and 121/5 - but each time the door was shut and, eventually, England wilted in the flaming heat and India may have taken the game away from them in the final session. While England did have bits of fortune go in their favour, especially Stokes' dismissal of Rohit, mostly it was a day of bad luck - I lost count of the number of edges and mishits that found every part of the ground bar the fielders' hands. 

For that reason I wasn't massively seduced by Pant's century. It seemed to be more an innings of extraordinary fortune that, more often than not, would see him dismissed for a meagre score. I do enjoy watching him bat in full flow, but today he was favoured by fate and got a likely match-defining ton. I was more impressed by Rohit, who showed a different temperament to his usual one, and Washington who looks a cracking prospect, backing up his batting exploits in Australia, and shouldn't be placed below Ashwin in the batting order.

England's bowling was very mixed. Anderson is obviously the master. Leach had a strong start to the day. Stokes was inconsistent, and I worry about Root bowling him into the ground. Bess was atrocious, he hasn't been gifted wickets like over in Sri Lanka, and England need to look to other options as England's second spinner until he shows signs of improvement in the county game. I was actually impressed that England, with the exception of Bess, were able to keep a handle on the run-rate for so long, before fatigue hit, an attribute they struggled with in Sri Lanka. 

All over? Not quite, but it's a long road back from here. England need to keep the lead below 120, then aim for a minimum 250 score in the third innings. That would give them a fighting chance, though it would probably require a top contribution from Stokes and/or Root. 

And, yes, the pitch has been a good cricketing wicket so far and, as a result, we've had a good test match. Isn't that wonderful? Hopefully a close finish, too...

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

I do think they look more prepared for a tour of Australia than the last one, at least.

Archer's elbow is starting to worry me a bit, I can see him going the way of Tymal Mills and becoming a white ball specialist. Wood would play 3 matches maximum in the ashes whilst Stone is himself prone to injury. That said it's still an improvement on the Currans and Overtons who played last time out.

Gooseberry wrote:Some vindication today for Englands stance on Bess earlier in the series?

Judging by all the views I've seen I think everyone sees it either as confirmation that England were right that Bess wasn't bowling well enough or confirmation that England ruined his confidence when he was bowling well. Depending which side you fell before this Test it feels like vindication of that side would be my conclusion.

I do find hearing Vaughan suddenly be Bess's biggest fan now he's signed for Yorkshire quite amusing. Tuffnell's response to Vaughan saying England had ruined Bess summed up my feelings, "I don't think England have ruined Bess but I fear India may have done".

As much as anything it's not nice seeing a playing falling apart a bit in Test cricket like that. It's the pinnacle of the game and for that to remain true it needs to be the highest standard and hence ruthless. That said it is still a bit sad when the cameras pan to Bess fielding on the boundary forlornly turning his arm over whilst a part timer bowled instead of him. There's just no consistency at all to his bowling at the minute. Even more frustrating given I think he's putting almost no revs on the ball to try to land them and still not managing that.

Duty281 wrote:For that reason I wasn't massively seduced by Pant's century. It seemed to be more an innings of extraordinary fortune that, more often than not, would see him dismissed for a meagre score. I do enjoy watching him bat in full flow, but today he was favoured by fate and got a likely match-defining ton. I was more impressed by Rohit, who showed a different temperament to his usual one, and Washington who looks a cracking prospect, backing up his batting exploits in Australia, and shouldn't be placed below Ashwin in the batting order.

The highlights might not have shown it as much but Pant batted much slower and with restraint having come in with the ball doing more and the bowlers tails up. Rohit and Pant batted excellently to tire out the bowlers and wait for the soft ball to be doing little. Then with the seamers knackered, Bess barely landing them and Root turning his arm over he flipped the switch.

Rohit played a vital hand though in surviving the toughest of the conditions.

No doubt Pant did get a bit lucky, but how many good attacking innings is that not true of? He did though play properly in the first part of the innings, when it was necessary, and only once India were in the ascendency did he start to take more risks.

The old adage about 'if you are going to flash, flash hard' has some merit, especially on slightly more lively pitches, as there are lots of parts of a cricket field that cannot be covered by fielders, especially if there are a few close catchers.

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Some vindication today for Englands stance on Bess earlier in the series?

As much as anything it's not nice seeing a playing falling apart a bit in Test cricket like that. It's the pinnacle of the game and for that to remain true it needs to be the highest standard and hence ruthless. That said it is still a bit sad when the cameras pan to Bess fielding on the boundary forlornly turning his arm over whilst a part timer bowled instead of him. There's just no consistency at all to his bowling at the minute. Even more frustrating given I think he's putting almost no revs on the ball to try to land them and still not managing that.

Watching him struggle reminds me of Kerrigan, being a Lancs fan I had really high hopes for him but he was ruined in that test match he played. I really hope Bess doesn't go the same way.

PaulHv2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Some vindication today for Englands stance on Bess earlier in the series?

As much as anything it's not nice seeing a playing falling apart a bit in Test cricket like that. It's the pinnacle of the game and for that to remain true it needs to be the highest standard and hence ruthless. That said it is still a bit sad when the cameras pan to Bess fielding on the boundary forlornly turning his arm over whilst a part timer bowled instead of him. There's just no consistency at all to his bowling at the minute. Even more frustrating given I think he's putting almost no revs on the ball to try to land them and still not managing that.

Watching him struggle reminds me of Kerrigan, being a Lancs fan I had really high hopes for him but he was ruined in that test match he played. I really hope Bess doesn't go the same way.

Chris Schofield as well from Lancs though he did revive his career later on with Surrey.

Richard Dawson's career stalled significantly after early chances.

Zaf Ansari of course left the game for different reasons not long after becoming a Test spinner.

Monty's struggles are well documented of course.

Scott Borthwick ended up a batsman and Mason Crane is just about kicking on again now albeit as more of a white ball bowler.

England haven't the greatest record of developing spinners that come into the Test side early.

king_carlos wrote:

PaulHv2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:Some vindication today for Englands stance on Bess earlier in the series?

As much as anything it's not nice seeing a playing falling apart a bit in Test cricket like that. It's the pinnacle of the game and for that to remain true it needs to be the highest standard and hence ruthless. That said it is still a bit sad when the cameras pan to Bess fielding on the boundary forlornly turning his arm over whilst a part timer bowled instead of him. There's just no consistency at all to his bowling at the minute. Even more frustrating given I think he's putting almost no revs on the ball to try to land them and still not managing that.

Watching him struggle reminds me of Kerrigan, being a Lancs fan I had really high hopes for him but he was ruined in that test match he played. I really hope Bess doesn't go the same way.

Chris Schofield as well from Lancs though he did revive his career later on with Surrey.

Richard Dawson's career stalled significantly after early chances.

Zaf Ansari of course left the game for different reasons not long after becoming a Test spinner.

Monty's struggles are well documented of course.

Scott Borthwick ended up a batsman and Mason Crane is just about kicking on again now albeit as more of a white ball bowler.

England haven't the greatest record of developing spinners that come into the Test side early.

They dont exactly have a stellar one with spinners who came into the side late either. Worth remembering that Bess was only ever selected by accident, with Mo becoming unselectable and Leach getting injured, and Rashid being sort of retired. Borthwick, Dawson and Ansari were all fudge picks to help prop up the batting rather than potential world class spinners (also Fatel). With Kerrigan and Borthwick there was also the issue of them being English leg spinners; every coach would love one but every coach refuses to pick them. Adil Rashid being the best example of that, spent years carrying drinks then was pretty rubbish when he finally did get chances.

Basically I dont think its an issue with players getting chucked in too young as such, more just a lack of quality.

England need a spin bowler development system like they have for seamers. Send the batsmen along to get bowled at once in while wouldnt be a bad idea either.

Its quite something when Axar Patel who was something like India's 5th choice a few weeks ago outbowling even Englands senior spinner who's not having a crisis, just isnt as good.

Hard to know whats gone on with Bess, cant be blamed on a lack of cricket He got the warm up in SL and then 3 tests on the bounce without ever really hitting his rhythm consistently whereas Leach who barely bowled at all for 2 years has bowled pretty well from the off. Is it a problem with the coach asking him to do something he's not entirely comfortable with? The rigours of tour life? Pressure of expectation?

Doubt it will be the end of him but will likely make the selectors job easier for the summer with Leach the obvious first choice spinner unless they decide to go without on green tops.

Kerrigan was left-arm ortho. Or is left-arm ortho once again as he's returned with Northants, which is great to see. Not an England prospect being realistic but good that he's returned to county cricket.

Other than that I agree though, Goose.

County cricket needs more variety in its pitches. I've been glad to see outgrounds coming back into the county game for that reason. It would also help if the only county to produce spinning wickets wasn't punished for it or if we played CC matches in the middle of the summer rather than pushed to either ends.

king_carlos wrote:Batsman - Sibley, Burns, Crawley, Bairstow, Lawrence, Root, Pope
Keepers - Buttler, Foakes
Spinners - Leach, Bess, Mo
Seamers - Anderson, Broad, Wood, S Curran, Archer, Stone
Stokes's - Ben Stokes

20 players used across 6 Tests Dolph so I wouldn't say they are using that small a pool. Add in that Woakes is almost certain to become the 21st Test player used this year in the summer.

Also in the T20 squad for India series - Morgan, Billings, T Curran, Jordan, Livingstone, Malan, Rashid, Roy, Topley

So another 9 there with the ODI squad yet to be named. England could feasibly have fielded 30 players over the winter by the end of the white ball leg of this tour. So it is a decent sized player group.

I do mean tests specifically, as picking different players for different formats isn't really rotating.

I don't actually think the numbers tell the story of it. If everyone is cutting in and out, they aren't resting properly. I have always thought cricket squads were quite small anyway, but I don't think three spinners is enough (especially considering Mo barely counts and they seem to cast Bess aside whenever), not sure Bairstow or Buttler have benefited from this, and I do think there was scope for more batsman who have shown strength playing spin.

If anything, I think I may have changed my mind and come around more to mid-series rotation being an absolute nonsense!

Another good day it turned out to be for India. It was a well fought out day of cricket, for the first 2 sessions India had to really struggle. But a superb, mature innings from Pant, built on a similarly mature innings from Rohit Sharma. Washington Sundar gave Pant excellent support, and their partnership rested control back for India.
Pant did go a bit bonkers as that hundred came in sight and of course reached there with a 6! But the important thing was he did reach there, and didn't add to that collection of 90s! There were a few edges, that survival on umpire's call. But it was a remarkably mature innings from Pant, possibly the best of his 3 test tons.
Washington's was again a correct, solid fine hand. Hope Axar, Ishant and Siraj would hang around with him, and Washi can take the score further forward. England would be hoping that Anderson and Stokes will be recharged by the morning and than rap the innings up for another 15-20 runs. India would hope that Axar and Washington, in the company of the 2 seamers, can somehow push the score close to 350.

Listened to a bit of BBC TMS podcast ...Vaughan & Agnew

Vaughan was going on how the management has let Bess down
shows how lopsided thinking is in English cricket.
Bess is not cut out for this level. Period...It's ruthless international cricket, not a kindergarten.
The sense of entitlement that Vaughan has for Bess is Tragicomic.

Look at India...when Shaw was clean bowled twice to Cummin thru the gate...it was clear his reflexes and technique was not cut out for that level...he was respectfully but quietly dumped.
Ditto Natrajan....play a good hand with the ball in the Adelaide....but test match cricket made it clear what T20s well concealed...that he can barely bowl at 125kph in long spells.....and can't hold the bat
He too is gone silently...not in squad, not in reserves not in top-25..finished... not cut out for test match level.

Moeen is 32 going on 33.....won't be surprised he continues to play 6 more year Maligned and dumped ungraciously every now & then...but picked again...for he is the best Eng hasand can bat too

Some generally thoughtful comments re Bess above...my own take is that he has at the very least been poorly handled lately but how he reacts in the medium to long term is the most important thing - and for that we need to wait and see.

Different people have different opinions of course : I reckon his efforts in SA , the home summer and even this tour suggest there is plenty of promise there to work with ; though he is/was nowhere near the finished product.

My complaint around the "handling" is this :  In Sri Lanka , he was very successful. Not an opinion - a documented fact. Now it is true that he was blessed by an arguably excessive amount of good luck in achieving that success ;  but ,  to make an obvious comparison : when have you last heard of a batsman making a couple of centuries with the aid of a number of dropped chances and almost immediately being discarded after a single failure and being told "all your runs were just too lucky ; we think you need to go back to the nets and sort out your game" ?
Now it may well be that the loss of control in the second innings in Chennai (he bowled pretty well in the first innings , and took important wickets , let it not be forgotten) pointed to a serious problem - he certainly bowled a large number of loose deliveries in that innings , not denying that. Why , I do not claim to know.  But given that this performance was definitely rather out of character with his earlier efforts on tour (and please note I am not claiming they were perfect - just that they were nothing like as loose in control) the management had the option to either say " OK , bad hair day, let's work on it in the nets and see how it goes next game" ; or - as they did , take the opportunity to give Moeen a game (whatever we think of that idea as a selection is basically irrelevant here).
But having taken the latter choice , it would surely have been far better to say little or nothing in public...cast it as rest and rotation if you like : while discussing it with the young man , working to iron out his issues (which is what coaches are for) and therefore enabling him to come back in either the third or fourth match  (inevitable he had to play in at least one of them) with a lot less pressure on his shoulders. Still tricky for him - we all know how it feels when we have had a bad day and then our next game starts with being hit for four , no ? But at least he wouldn't have known that the commentators were all lined up to say " Oh yes !  There is a full toss -again" the moment he overpitched (as even the best of them do from time to time)

As I say : it will be for him to deal with. Won't be easy ; but I - like most on here - wish him well. And I hope he isn't summarily discarded from the squad on the strength of a couple of poor matches. Lot of cricket to be played over the next year or so and there are not many English spinners around who stand out as immediately selectable if Leach gets injured and Moeen (who has his own confidence issues) isn't ready to slot back in.

Axar showing today why he is deemed a bowling allrounder in white ball
And a full allrounder in Ranji trophy

king_carlos wrote:Kerrigan was left-arm ortho. Or is left-arm ortho once again as he's returned with Northants, which is great to see. Not an England prospect being realistic but good that he's returned to county cricket.

Other than that I agree though, Goose.

County cricket needs more variety in its pitches. I've been glad to see outgrounds coming back into the county game for that reason. It would also help if the only county to produce spinning wickets wasn't punished for it or if we played CC matches in the middle of the summer rather than pushed to either ends.

I’m sure we’d all love for more CC matches in the middle of the summer, but unfortunately 200 members alongside Dave and his dog on a Wednesday morning doesn’t pay the bills like a full house after work for a T20...

Lead 128
When it gets past 150 innings defeat comes into play
I would love to see Dan Lawrence bowl

Eng has not looked like getting a wicket this morning

First time India have made above 350 all series - you’d have got good odds on that at the start of the series

146-6 to 357-7 India
Reflection on what happens if you have two wkt taking bowlers and they get tired

Silly.of Axar to get run out
Missed on a serve yourself a 50
That was the only way Eng looked like getting a wkt this morning

Stokes with the most nonchalant celebrappeal of all time

Feel sad for Sundar
Ishant and Siraj how brainless and irresponsible
Owed a lot more application for Sundar