RFU DIVERSITY AND INCLUSION ADVISORY GROUP

First topic message reminder :

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/article/rfu-diversity-and-inclusion-advisory-group-formed

Think this probably deserves it's own topic given it's something a few people have banged on about for years. Finally the RFU have given the go ahead to have a look at who is perhaps not able or even wanting to play the game. Although it's changed ever so slightly there is still the overwhelming thought that Rugby Union in England is about the rich, posh kids who in turn are more likely to be white. How many people miss out on rugby and vice versa the talent lost to clubs because they happen to go to the wrong school etc. It's changed slightly with some league or more pre-league converts e.g. Ford and Farrell, Burrell, Tomkins and some more northern voices from league strongholds. Would be great to see a conveyor belt of some of that talent and guys like Sinckler who only picked up rugby later being given more options earlier.

Ugo Monye has been picked as the chair with the remaining members made up as so:

Group members also include:

· Sue Anstiss MBE – CEO of Fearless Women, trustee of the Women’s Sport Trust and co-founder of the Women’s Sport Collective.

· James Bailey – ex-England Sevens player, England Women Sevens head coach and current RPA D&I advisor and Rugby Sevens consultant.

· Nigel Boatswain – over 20 years at Apple, including time as the executive sponsor for ‘Black at Apple’, its D&I programme. Trustee at the Dame Kelly Holmes Trust and external project board for Sport England D&I focused 2021 Code for Sports Governance.

· Josh Brekenfeld – London Scottish board and executive committee member and director of global development at Aspen.

· Gill Burns MBE – ex-England Captain, Rugby World Cup winner and Lancashire RFU President 2019-21.

· Laura Kapo – player and chairwoman at Richmond Women.

'The group will provide insights to shape plans as well as challenge the RFU on its progress in delivering on its diversity and inclusion goals.

Former England player and D&I advisory group chair, Ugo Monye, said: “The RFU has made diversity and inclusion a core priority with clear plans being worked on that should make a substantive difference to the game.

“It’s really important that we get this right so that the anyone, from anywhere, feels rugby is a game for them. There is a wealth of experience in the advisory group and we’re all pleased to be able to contribute in driving an important agenda within the sport.”

Bill Sweeney, RFU CEO, said: “To be able to draw on the wealth of knowledge, experience and expertise in this group will be invaluable to us as we embark on plans to increase diversity in our sport and ensure it is open and inclusive to all. Consulting with others outside our organisation will provide us with different perspectives and help us to ensure that our plans are robust, meaningful, and result in tangible action.”

Within each of these four areas, the RFU is committed to better understanding where it is today compared to the wider population in terms of demographic, behavioural and attitudinal data and insight, establishing what it wants to change and how it will achieve it. Priorities include raising awareness, educating a wide range of stakeholders and delivering critical interventions alongside refreshed policies and guidance and ultimately monitoring progress, and adapting plans based on outcomes and updated insight. Currently the priority areas for action are ethnicity, gender, socio-economic status, sexual orientation and age. '


England and the clubs have some great players coming through but it could be even stronger and tapping into some working class environments etc can only be a good thing in my eyes for healthy grass roots participation and the number of supporters.

LD...give up now, ......

GeordieFalcon wrote:LD...give up now, ......

yep your right.

Lets get back to rugby.

So we all know its not a BLM thing. And we all know that kneeling to raise awareness of Racism was first done before Flloyd being murdered by a policeman.

Why do I think people should take a knee? I guess it comes round to my initial response, I was naive in regards to issues of race, I thought we were pretty good in this country. Embarrassing tbh as when I thought more about it and read up there were blatant instances around me. There will be more people like me I'm sure so the fact we're taking about race more is very good thing and thats been brought up in part by players kneeling. England fans are being brain dead morons. If they continue to boo players taking the knee its clear they're racist.

Not sure what you meant by 'What I would support more though, is an anti racism movement who were against atrocities to everyone, why aren't we seeing more of this ?'.

'But why I am trying to explain this to somebody who would boo a minutes silence for our fallen hero's just to get a point across is beyond me.' lol. You really don't understand simple points sometimes. My point again is that this is a political statement as some have rightly pointed out taking a knee is. Some people are against one by ignoring the politics in the other. For someone's fallen heros its someone else's supporting the killing of unarmed civilians for instance.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I was naive in regards to issues of race, I thought we were pretty good in this country. Embarrassing tbh as when I thought more about it and read up there were blatant instances around me.

We're better than pretty good in this country. As a nation the UK would currently rank globally as one of the least racist (same for homophobia), but we do have a tiny minority of racists (not sure that will ever end).

I think there are a lot of people who don't think they are racist but will make the jokes and the comments etc. Hell we have a racist Prime Minister.

Even when we stick to rugby on this forum, people talk past each other, and get enraged, so it's unlikely a conversation on a topic like this is going to go smoothly.

I've never met any of you, so haven't a clue what you are like as people. One old colleague at work held political views I didn't share but he was also a very loyal, and decent bloke. On a text-based forum, its often hard to separate someone disagreeing with you, from disliking you.

I thought there was comment earlier along the lines of "everyone here is anti racism". Sorry, can't seem to find it now. Let's pretend I did see something like that for a minute.

My first reaction was to remember things I've said, jokes I've laughed at, and comments I've let go unanswered, which make me cringe in embarrassment now. If you'd asked me at the time if I was anti racism, then I would surely have said yes. After all, I certainly didn't feel like being pro racism. I was one of the good guys, so of course I was anti racism.

For all I know, I'm making a similar mistake again when I say I'm anti racism now. That's not throwing my hands up in despair, and declaring that I must be forever be marked as an incorrigible racist. It's just recognizing that discrimination of all sorts is firmly baked into the way our world has been ordered. I'm not a self-hating white man, as anyone who knows me will testify. I'm more likely to be accused of loving the sound of my own voice.

I remember a BBC rugby podcast just after the killing of George Floyd. Ugo Monye, Maro Itoje, and a number of other black players spoke about their experience. They mentioned how athletic black schoolboys were almost always sent to the wing, rather than played at fly half.

You don't even have to imagine that the teacher doubted a black boy could be a decision maker. It might just have been a stereotype of black boys being fast boys, at a time when most of the world's best sprinters were black. However, the knock-on effect was that skillful black players got fewer opportunities to learn game management at the earliest part of their careers. You don't need an explicitly racist starting point to end up with an inequitable outcome.

Monye also spoke about his personal life. His wife is white, and he regrets not having a conversation about racism with her. He thought - or hoped - it wouldn't be necessary. He then said how helpless he felt when his wife came home and told him how she and their children had been racially abused in a local park.

He went on to say how they spoke with teaching staff at a new school, to see how they would handle mixed race children. The head told them not to worry, because they had disabled children in the school, who were mixing well.

Maybe the head was trying to say no challenge was beyond the school's staff but it was extremely tone deaf, to say the least, to put mixed race children and disabled children in the same category. And unfair to both.

Ugo Monye is not a marxist. When he, and others, feel they want to draw attention to an issue which affects every part of their life; one which will affect their children, then it does me no harm to listen.

If their chosen symbol of solidarity leads you to ascribe motives to them which they do not have, then either take their word for it that you are wrong, or suggest something else they can do. It can feel very offensive to be told that you are racist, or blind to racism. However, I'm sure it feels equally offensive to those who draw attention to racism, only to be told they are making a fuss about nothing, or doing it in the wrong way.

In better news for anyone that doesn't like kneeling sounds as if the Lions won't be doing it.

Guardian:
Sinckler said: “Whatever the team and the senior boys want to do, and everyone is behind it, that’s that. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. I was only called into the squad yesterday. Whatever they want to do, as long as everyone is aligned.

“The key is whatever the team buys into that’s what they should do. And no one else’s opinions should affect that. If the England boys think taking a knee is what they should do, then they should and everyone should buy into it.”

In other good news for anti kneelers, Boris Johnson agrees with you. If ever there was an easy moral yardstick for knowing which side of the argument I want to be on, there it is

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1401859424831119360?s=20

I don't know how accurate this is in regards to the actions of ants but it's does explain how I feel about these things, all be it in full naivety.

If you collect 100 black ants and 100 red ants and put them in a glass jar nothing will happen, but if you take the jar, shake it violently and leave it on the table, the ants will start killing each other. Reds believe that black is the enemy while black believes that red is the enemy when the real enemy is the person who shook the jar. The same is true in society.

Men vs Women
Left vs Right
Rich vs poor
Faith vs Science
Gossip, rumors, etc ...

Before we fight each other, we must ask ourselves: Who rocked the jar?

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't know how accurate this is in regards to the actions of ants but it's does explain how I feel about these things, all be it in full naivety.

If you collect 100 black ants and 100 red ants and put them in a glass jar nothing will happen, but if you take the jar, shake it violently and leave it on the table, the ants will start killing each other. Reds believe that black is the enemy while black believes that red is the enemy when the real enemy is the person who shook the jar. The same is true in society.

Men vs Women
Left vs Right
Rich vs poor
Faith vs Science
Gossip, rumors, etc ...

Before we fight each other, we must ask ourselves: Who rocked the jar?

Quite often the person rocking the jar does it wilfully to exploit society for some form of financial gain.

Pete330v2 wrote:I don't know how accurate this is in regards to the actions of ants but it's does explain how I feel about these things, all be it in full naivety.

If you collect 100 black ants and 100 red ants and put them in a glass jar nothing will happen, but if you take the jar, shake it violently and leave it on the table, the ants will start killing each other. Reds believe that black is the enemy while black believes that red is the enemy when the real enemy is the person who shook the jar. The same is true in society.

Men vs Women
Left vs Right
Rich vs poor
Faith vs Science
Gossip, rumors, etc ...

Before we fight each other, we must ask ourselves: Who rocked the jar?

Warren Gatland?

I absolutely applaud everything written above.  One of the most difficult topics to discuss and I think you walked the tightrope as well as possible in just the few sentences or paragraphs.  Racism, anti-Semitism, bias, hatred, and fear of others of any kind are all part of the same thing.  And not limited to any individual group, we see it in every part of the globe, and it manifests itself in many ways.  

It is such a peculiar part of the human psyche that person to person most of the time is fine.  It is when people are in groups the worst (or the best, to be fair) in us comes out.  

I thought Colin Kaepernick taking a knee to protest social injustice in America was a thoughtful and respectful way to make his point.  Unfortunately, as happens so often, other people and groups, politicians and even some in the media of all viewpoints and agendas hijacked his gesture to make it about confrontation and a symbol of something it was never intended to be.  I feel bad for him because he was a good player who became untouchable because of those outside groups inflaming the worst in some people.  

I don't think there is an ultimate solution to fix racism, anti-Semitism, and bias against others.  But as an old mentor of mine said dealing with people it is about all gestures great and small.  So I suppose as long we we all try to do better in our normal interactions we have started on the right road.  Fixing the larger problems in society and looking openly at the past without recrimination and the politics which surround it is much tougher.  I know that sounds naive and simplistic and does not help anyone today who feels they can't go somewhere, get hired or keep a job, simply because of how they look, colour of their skin, whom they care for, their choice of faith or lack of it, how they speak, and so on.   But ultimately, it is all about people.

I was prompted to add to this thread in hopes I didn't take it off track.  But I saw this over breakfast and wanted to share exactly what is right and wrong:
https://twitter.com/SkyFootball/status/1402364877495279618?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1402364877495279618%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nydailynews.com%2Fnews%2Fworld%2Fny-ireland-soccer-team-booed-taking-a-knee-turkey-20210609-hafmy7mtgvex5b2pz3xmfgbu64-story.html

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/ny-ireland-soccer-team-booed-taking-a-knee-turkey-20210609-hafmy7mtgvex5b2pz3xmfgbu64-story.html

Duty281 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:regardless whether Kapernicek (the American footballer) did it first, I think the problem is that people do associate that move with the BLM movement.

That's the key point. If the England football team switched to another gesture, whatever that may be, there wouldn't be any booing. A similar thing happened to Millwall - their fans booed the knee, so Millwall switched the gesture (linking arms and holding up an anti-racism banner I think) and there was universal applause at their ground.

As an added point to this, the England cricket team played at Edgbaston today in front of a raucous 18,000 crowd (football-style atmosphere), and (just before play started) wore t-shirts advertising messages against discrimination of various kinds, while an announcer over the PA system repeated those same messages.

There was no booing whatsoever, but I have little doubt there would have been if the England cricket team had kneeled. There would be no booing if the England football team adopted this as their way of getting the message across.

No doubts you are right. Really makes me wonder about the future of the species if a simple non-aggressive way of showing support for folk has become such a political rage button for some people.

doctor_grey wrote:No doubts you are right.  Really makes me wonder about the future of the species if a simple non-aggressive way of showing support for folk has become such a political rage button for some people.  

As many of us have said above Doc, it may be a non aggressive gesture, its the association it has now for a political organization that is very much aggressive with policies that dont sit comfortable with so many people now.

As Duty said, change the gesture and there will be no booing.

It's not though. Surely you have read the comms out from both Southgate and the England team. If you're booing, you're booing an anti racism stance not Karl Marx.

No i disagree with you 7.5. Regardless that Kapernicek did it first, it is a gesture pretty much adopted by BLM.

They need to move away from that and have a different gesture, otherwise the booing will continue and get worse. And no, those booing are not racist.

There's no disagree here GF. There have been clear statements by England and Southgate. Those booing are racist, as they are booing an anti racism stance.

“Tomorrow, our England senior men’s team will begin their Euro 2020 campaign at our home, Wembley Stadium.
“Major tournaments don’t come around very often and when they do, it’s an opportunity to unite friends, family and the country. This collective support is what spurs the team on during challenging moments and it gives them the best chance of succeeding.

“As the team has reiterated many times, they will collectively take the knee ahead of the fixtures during the tournament. They are doing this as a mechanism of peacefully protesting against discrimination, injustice and inequality. This is personally important to the players and the values the team collectively represents.
“This gesture of unity and fighting against inequality can be traced back as far as the 18th century. It is not new, and English football has made it very clear that it does not view this as being aligned to a political organisation or ideology. There can be no doubt as to why the players are taking the knee and what it represents in a footballing context.

“We encourage those that oppose this action to reflect on the message you are sending the players you are supporting.
“Please respect their wishes and remember that we should be all united in the fight to tackle discrimination. Together.
“They will do their best for you. Please do your best for them.”

Yes there is disagree....

Southgate can say what he wants. Its the association that the gesture has with the Political group. Its quite simple.

And more and more people dont want them doing it. And no the booers are NOT racist...

I disagree totally with the gesture...does that make me a racist?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not though. Surely you have read the comms out from both Southgate and the England team. If you're booing, you're booing an anti racism stance not Karl Marx.

It really isn't that simple. I myself wouldn't boo and do agree it's quite pathetic to do so but people do have legitimate concerns over the gestures association with the wider BLM movement, we do not live in a dictatorship differences of opinion are allowed. I would not kneel as I believe it signifies subservience but would support those who wish to do it, like with anything it's more nuanced than you wish to make out.

Well there's clear right and wrong then. You've listened to Southgate and read the statements. You know definitively the reasons for them kneeling. Anyone booing is a racist. They've booing a set of guys kneeling as a 'as a mechanism of peacefully protesting against discrimination, injustice and inequality'. As to whether you're a racist well the first thing I'd state is that if you disagree with the gesture due to it being linked to a political group you haven't read or understood the statements. You keep coming back to a point that's now categorically not true. I don't know for sure the underlying reason for this or why you're so bothered about professional sportsmen using their status to make a stand. I don't know you personally but I'd say the majority of people I know are racist, they don't consider themselves to be of course.

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not though. Surely you have read the comms out from both Southgate and the England team. If you're booing, you're booing an anti racism stance not Karl Marx.

It really isn't that simple. I myself wouldn't boo and do agree it's quite pathetic to do so but people do have legitimate concerns over the gestures association with the wider BLM movement, we do not live in a dictatorship differences of opinion are allowed. I would not kneel as I believe it signifies subservience but would support those who wish to do it, like with anything it's more nuanced than you wish to make out.

It is simple. And yes of course if people want to boo an anti racism stance they can. They're racists and its not been outlawed entirely.

Full circle to the group set up by the RFU you can see why it is needed. Lot's of animosity being whipped up by a prominent stance of anti racism. You could see why some people wouldn't want to be in groups where you may see these views to the fore. How do you encourage participation when there are these views behind closed doors in communities. Interested to see what comes it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not though. Surely you have read the comms out from both Southgate and the England team. If you're booing, you're booing an anti racism stance not Karl Marx.

It really isn't that simple. I myself wouldn't boo and do agree it's quite pathetic to do so but people do have legitimate concerns over the gestures association with the wider BLM movement, we do not live in a dictatorship differences of opinion are allowed. I would not kneel as I believe it signifies subservience but would support those who wish to do it, like with anything it's more nuanced than you wish to make out.

It is simple. And yes of course if people want to boo an anti racism stance they can. They're racists and its not been outlawed entirely.

Saying it is so does not make it so. Booing a gesture that is associated with an organisation that wishes to defund the police does not on its own make one a racist. There will be racists among those booing without doubt.

But we know that its not linked. Thats just a made up reason. Anyone booing is a racist. Anyone.

Anyway. We know the reason why they're kneeling. It's not to support a political party but i would agree overall it is a political statement. Bit of a side step to the Diversity group in part but supports the need for it I suppose.

In your opinion it's a made up reason, again your opinion is not truth.

7.5 do you understand why people do not like the Political group BLM?

Can you not see that performing a gesture very much linked with them causes fans to question them, regardless if your manager says it nothing to do with that.

I wouldnt boo either...however i want them to stop the Kneeling. I ask again ...does that make me a racist.

Do you support BLM the political movement?

BLM, winds some people up certainyl GF.

Again for the hard of hearing at the back this isn't to do with BLM the political party.

Depends why you want them to stop kneeling GF. Why are you asking people who want to make this statement against racism to stop?

In regards to BLM (which again has nothing to do with this) I haven't read up enough about them to know. I've heard some of the things e.g. Defund the police which in America is around doing things differently and properly funding other services like education, MH and social interventions and when you see the amount of racism and immediate violence there you can certainly see the logic behind that. Like I said thats only a snippet though, don't know the full set of policies.

Soul Requiem wrote:In your opinion it's a made up reason, again your opinion is not truth.

The bit about the BLM party not being linked to this kneeling is not opinion. we know that for a fact, we've read the statements. My thoughts on anyone booing being a racist could be considered opinion. I'm sure some people booing may just be thick; but then it's still their choice of action so I'm back to thinking they're thick and racist.

Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what? Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Soul Requiem wrote:In your opinion it's a made up reason, again your opinion is not truth.

The bit about the BLM party not being linked to this kneeling is not opinion. we know that for a fact, we've read the statements. My thoughts on anyone booing being a racist could be considered opinion. I'm sure some people booing may just be thick; but then it's still their choice of action so I'm back to thinking they're thick and racist.

No it's an opinion, it is an action in it's wider use linked to the overall BLM movement. If you don't want the association then use a different gesture. Kneeling in itself is not an act of unity.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Again for the hard of hearing at the back this isn't to do with BLM the political party.

What is it with you ? BLM have adopted taking the knee. This is what people are against, no matter what people say they are doing it for, people will still associate taking the knee with BLM, booing it does not make these people racist.

Just because you say so, it does not make you correct.

But why I'm trying to reason this with somebody who would boo a minutes silence on Remembrance Day just to make a point is beyond me. Just remember you would not have this platform you like to shout from behind a screen if those hero's did not make the ultimate sacrifice to give you the freedom you cherish today.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can I ask you 2 whether you feel that a group to look at diversity and inclusion is needed or do you fall on the side of the cream will rise to the top no matter what?  Kind of like our Prime Ministers view that children of wealthy parents get private tuition thanks to the hard work of their parents. Harder you work the more good outcomes you get. Always. We know that.

I have worked damn hard to get where I am today, and as a result I employ a number of people who now earn a very good wage, I should not be ashamed of that.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Again for the hard of hearing at the back this isn't to do with BLM the political party.

What is it with you ? BLM have adopted taking the knee. This is what people are against, no matter what people say they are doing it for, people will still associate taking the knee with BLM, booing it does not make these people racist.

Just because you say so, it does not make you correct.

But why I'm trying to reason this with somebody who would boo a minutes silence on Remembrance Day just to make a point is beyond me. Just remember you would not have this platform you like to shout from behind a screen if those hero's did not make the ultimate sacrifice to give you the freedom you cherish today.

Don't take my word for it LD. Take the England teams:
“Tomorrow, our England senior men’s team will begin their Euro 2020 campaign at our home, Wembley Stadium.
“Major tournaments don’t come around very often and when they do, it’s an opportunity to unite friends, family and the country. This collective support is what spurs the team on during challenging moments and it gives them the best chance of succeeding.

“As the team has reiterated many times, they will collectively take the knee ahead of the fixtures during the tournament. They are doing this as a mechanism of peacefully protesting against discrimination, injustice and inequality. This is personally important to the players and the values the team collectively represents.
“This gesture of unity and fighting against inequality can be traced back as far as the 18th century. It is not new, and English football has made it very clear that it does not view this as being aligned to a political organisation or ideology. There can be no doubt as to why the players are taking the knee and what it represents in a footballing context.

“We encourage those that oppose this action to reflect on the message you are sending the players you are supporting.
“Please respect their wishes and remember that we should be all united in the fight to tackle discrimination. Together.
“They will do their best for you. Please do your best for them.”

You didnt get the point re remembrance day. It was to highlight the people who don't like politics in sport would surely boo the minutes silence for that too. Of course normally it's observed well despite being political so that questions the underlying reasons again.

I do not care what people are saying, the fact that BLM have adopted taking the knee as their stance will cause people who are against BLM to be against people taking the knee.

You are just not taking other people points of view on board, and it's very typical of you, you take it upon yourself to be outraged for everybody and vent it on a public forum.

To be honest I lost respect for your views after what you were saying on the Israel Folau topic a few months ago, and you are now behaving the same on this thread as well.

You need to stop preaching what you think is right or wrong, and accept people will see things differently to you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:BLM, winds some people up certainyl GF.

Again for the hard of hearing at the back this isn't to do with BLM the political party.

Depends why you want them to stop kneeling GF. Why are you asking people who want to make this statement against racism to stop?

In regards to BLM (which again has nothing to do with this) I haven't read up enough about them to know. I've heard some of the things e.g. Defund the police which in America is around doing things differently and properly funding other services like education, MH and social interventions and when you see the amount of racism and immediate violence there you can certainly see the logic behind that. Like I said thats only a snippet though, don't know the full set of policies.

Are you suggesting im deaf because i have a difference of opinion with you?

You are the one who doesnt seem to be grasping the issue 7.5. Southgate may very well have said its not linked with the BLM group...BUT the very gesture is one adopted by......BLM the political movement. This is a group that most definitely have stated...De Fund the police, amongst many others policies...and lets not start on the looting agenda etc.

Now that may or may not be the BLM themselves or other anarchists who have tagged on to the movement to cause trouble. But the key point is...even if Southgate states they are not supporting that....why then perform an act which is linked directly to them!

There are so many gestures that can be done...why court controversy and cause potential conflict with your own fans by continuing kneeling.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:No doubts you are right.  Really makes me wonder about the future of the species if a simple non-aggressive way of showing support for folk has become such a political rage button for some people.  

As many of us have said above Doc, it may be a non aggressive gesture, its the association it has now for a political organization that is very much aggressive with policies that dont sit comfortable with so many people now.

As Duty said, change the gesture and there will be no booing.

I understand your point and can't disagree.  My comment was really about how some groups hijacked the gesture for their own ends which goes on to polarise people. The knee has become such a flash point for a lot of people across the length and breadth of the political spectrum and around the world.  I think the problem is if some new gesture or action, or really anything, is adopted, don't you think that would be hijacked too by people with various political or social agendas as well?   Not at all sure the right solution.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:No doubts you are right.  Really makes me wonder about the future of the species if a simple non-aggressive way of showing support for folk has become such a political rage button for some people.  

As many of us have said above Doc, it may be a non aggressive gesture, its the association it has now for a political organization that is very much aggressive with policies that dont sit comfortable with so many people now.

As Duty said, change the gesture and there will be no booing.

I understand your point and can't disagree.  My comment was really about how some groups hijacked the gesture for their own ends which goes on to polarise  people.  The knee has become such a flash point for a lot of people across the length and breadth of the political spectrum and around the world.  I think the problem is if some new gesture or action, or really anything, is adopted, don't you think that would be hijacked too by people with various political or social agendas as well?   Not at all sure the right solution.

Well that is another thing isnt it. Wear an armband like the hungarians did the other night, link arms etc.
Im sure there is something that would have the backing of everyone.

As i keep repeating, its not about the race issue...people want equality (or certainly the majority do) its the association that is the issue.

doctor_grey wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:No doubts you are right.  Really makes me wonder about the future of the species if a simple non-aggressive way of showing support for folk has become such a political rage button for some people.  

As many of us have said above Doc, it may be a non aggressive gesture, its the association it has now for a political organization that is very much aggressive with policies that dont sit comfortable with so many people now.

As Duty said, change the gesture and there will be no booing.

I understand your point and can't disagree.  My comment was really about how some groups hijacked the gesture for their own ends which goes on to polarise  people.  The knee has become such a flash point for a lot of people across the length and breadth of the political spectrum and around the world.  I think the problem is if some new gesture or action, or really anything, is adopted, don't you think that would be hijacked too by people with various political or social agendas as well?   Not at all sure the right solution.

No other organisation has jumped on the back of things like "kick it out" so I do not think it would be an issue, why not carry on with the kick it out stance ? That was going well, and it was advertised everywhere, It was brining racism into the mainstream and we were dealing with it.

LordDowlais wrote:I do not care what people are saying, the fact that BLM have adopted taking the knee as their stance will cause people who are against BLM to be against people taking the knee.

You are just not taking other people points of view on board, and it's very typical of you, you take it upon yourself to be outraged for everybody and vent it on a public forum.

To be honest I lost respect for your views after what you were saying on the Israel Folau topic a few months ago, and you are now behaving the same on this thread as well.

You need to stop preaching what you think is right or wrong, and accept people will see things differently to you.

In this case anyone disagreeing is disagreeing with the England team and wider support teams on the stated reasons they're doing it. We know why but some people are trying to invent a reason.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:BLM, winds some people up certainyl GF.

Again for the hard of hearing at the back this isn't to do with BLM the political party.

Depends why you want them to stop kneeling GF. Why are you asking people who want to make this statement against racism to stop?

In regards to BLM (which again has nothing to do with this) I haven't read up enough about them to know. I've heard some of the things e.g. Defund the police which in America is around doing things differently and properly funding other services like education, MH and social interventions and when you see the amount of racism and immediate violence there you can certainly see the logic behind that. Like I said thats only a snippet though, don't know the full set of policies.

Are you suggesting im deaf because i have a difference of opinion with you?

You are the one who doesnt seem to be grasping the issue 7.5. Southgate may very well have said its not linked with the BLM group...BUT the very gesture is one adopted by......BLM the political movement. This is a group that most definitely have stated...De Fund the police, amongst many others policies...and lets not start on the looting agenda etc.

Now that may or may not be the BLM themselves or other anarchists who have tagged on to the movement to cause trouble. But the key point is...even if Southgate states they are not supporting that....why then perform an act which is linked directly to them!

There are so many gestures that can be done...why court controversy and cause potential conflict with your own fans by continuing kneeling.

As with my previous response. I've posted the exact reasons and you're inventing one to disagree with.

What am i inventing?

7.5 the irony is you are the only one who doesnt see it......

No 7&1/2 wrote:In this case anyone disagreeing is disagreeing with the England team and wider support teams on the stated reasons they're doing it. We know why but some people are trying to invent a reason.

So people are inventing things now ?

Boy you are a real deal aren't you. You see, it's people like you who are the problem.

To say I am flabbergasted by your comments is an understatement, and the fact you are making them construes that you do not know what you are talking about.

I do not know where to go from here with you 7.5.

Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Well you seem to be LD. I've posted the statement a couple of times. The England team, the guys who are kneeling have said its not to support BLM the party. Saying so now when you know its not true...

You could start by re reading the comments from England. Listen to the Southgate statement etc and revisit why you appear upset that they are kneeling to raise awareness around racism etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway, we are clearly getting nowhere here, so im bowing out of this one for good.

Good. Hopefully you'll come around to support this eventually.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What am i inventing?

7.5 the irony is you are the only one who doesnt see it......

You're inventing a reason for England to be kneeling. We know the reasons, anything else is invented.

LordDowlais wrote:...No other organisation has jumped on the back of things like "kick it out" so I do not think it would be an issue, why not carry on with the kick it out stance ?...

Kick it Out supports the players taking a knee

https://twitter.com/kickitout/status/1404057220350889985