Lions Announcement - Round 2

First topic message reminder :

Forwards: Tadhg Beirne, Jack Conan, Luke Cowan Dickie, Tom Curry, Zander Fagerson, Taulupe Faletau, Tadhg Furlong, Jamie George, Iain Henderson, Jonny Hill, Maro Itoje, Alun Wyn Jones, Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes, Ken Owens, Andrew Porter, Sam Simmonds, Rory Sutherland, Justin Tipuric, Mako Vunipola, Hamish Watson.

Backs: Josh Adams, Bundee Aki, Dan Biggar, Elliot Daly, Gareth Davies, Owen Farrell, Chris Harris, Robbie Henshaw, Stuart Hogg, Conor Murray, Ali Price, Louis Rees-Zammit, Finn Russell, Duhan van der Merwe, Anthony Watson, Liam Williams.

I am predicting a white wash 3-0 series win for the Lions.

On another note, is Dombrandt injured? Because as far as bolters goes, I think he would have been a better option than Simmonds.

LordDowlais wrote:I am predicting a white wash 3-0 series win for the Lions.

Why ever not? Not as if South Africa have played a game together in almost two years. They need warm-ups almost as much as the Lions do.

Whilst I think there was dog whistling from the journalist, I would also not say Genge and Sinckler come across as particularly likeable characters.

Genge had off-field issues at Bristol that pushed him to move to Leicester. He also comes across as a bit of an a** on the pitch as seen as recently as a month or so ago (https://www.rugbypass.com/news/watch-ellis-genge-involved-in-sideline-incident-prior-to-newcastle-match/)

Sinckler was arrested for disorder at the end of the last Lions tour and seemingly was involved in plenty of handbags until relatively recently (someone said he seems to have lost some fire and it may be a case of him calming down a bit). Otherwise, there was the incident with Karl Dickson earlier in the season.

I have more sympathy for Sinckler than for Genge in considering why I don't particularly like them. Sinckler comes across as someone who reacts whilst Genge comes across as an instigator.

Another trait they both share is they have a "bit of dog" about them in the same way as POM, Ryan Wilson, Etzebeth and Read. The type of player hated by everyone except his own team.

Cant remember why but there was also a lot of talk about SA being slightly under cooked prior to the last tour in 09. They came out of the traps very quickly in the first test. On paper we should beat them however I hope unlike England the Lions look to out smart SA rather than out muscle them. I think thats why Ireland has a better recent record v SA than England and to a lesser extent Wales.

Duty281 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am predicting a white wash 3-0 series win for the Lions.

Why ever not? Not as if South Africa have played a game together in almost two years. They need warm-ups almost as much as the Lions do.

Well I didn’t expect the Boks to win the RWC, yet they did, so I suspect I will continue to think they won’t win the series until they do

So why is everyone derailing the thread talking about a collosal c***
Dont give him the time / air space...

Move on and talk about rugby...

Warreb Gatland just name checked 4 players in interview, H Watson, LRZ , Beirne and AWJ

Theres your starters folks

GeordieFalcon wrote:So why is everyone derailing the thread talking about a collosal c***
Dont give him the time / air space...

Move on and talk about rugby...

On the bright side it is something we can all agree about

theslosty wrote:Sorry Geoff I keep seeing this myth being peddled by supporters and journalists about Ryan having had a poor 6N. .

The flaw in your reply is I never said he has a poor 6N, I said he was outperformed by Beirne and Henderson which is a very different thing.
Given that Itoje and Wyn Jones were always going and given Beirne and Henderson out performed him, Ryan was into a three into one decision with Hill and Gray.
Under the circumstances he was never going to be a certainty to travel.
As I said there was a real possibility the three Irish locks would be on the plane.
Between him, Gray and Hill I suspect it was one of the closest calls

cb wrote:No one from Bristol who are top of the premiership!

That's because Afoa, Luatua, Morahan, Piatau, Radradra and Vui are not eligible to be selected

I suspect we will get lots of name drops from coaches in the next month. Townsend via the bbc on Daly: 'But Lions attack coach Gregor Townsend says he was convinced by the 2017 tourist's form, despite the fact that he and the four other Saracens players in the squad have been competing in the Championship.
"I watched him against Doncaster and against Nottingham," he said.
"You might say the opposition isn't a good level but what I'm seeing from him is working really hard to get on ball and his ability to step and pass, never mind his left-foot kick and previous experience on a Lions tour. I think he has timed his run to form really well."'

Daly having been picked for his attack did more than any other English player to end our attacks. I've been to watch Donny a number of times and you really can't compare their level to Worcester let alone SA!

geoff999rugby wrote:Between him, Gray and Hill I suspect it was one of the closest calls  

Putting it like that could it be that Hill is least likely to let his head drop if he wasn't picked for the test team out of those three?

I wonder how often that came into discussion for the whole squad.

Squad morale is going to be very important this time round with Covid restrictions on top of the usual 6 weeks away.

Gooseberry wrote:If Genge and Sinckler arent going because of their lack of self discipline how the hell did Marler get a call over them?

Because Marler is the best LH in Britain and Ireland perhaps?

Discipline clearly isn't a factor, otherwise Aki would not be on the plane

alive555 wrote:Warreb Gatland just name checked 4 players in interview, H Watson, LRZ , Beirne and AWJ

Theres your starters folks

I hope Watson starts, hes a real dynamo. Beirne too obviously but I dont fancy his chances.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:If Genge and Sinckler arent going because of their lack of self discipline how the hell did Marler get a call over them?

Because Marler is the best LH in Britain and Ireland perhaps?

Discipline clearly isn't a factor, otherwise Aki would not be on the plane

Gatland loves picking leftfield Kiwis, remember Teo on the tour last time round. Aki like Teo wont start and tests.

Anyone know who the Wales 4 will be this time?

Lads why not park the racism chat, plenty more relevant stuff to wade through.

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:If Genge and Sinckler arent going because of their lack of self discipline how the hell did Marler get a call over them?

Because Marler is the best LH in Britain and Ireland perhaps?

Discipline clearly isn't a factor, otherwise Aki would not be on the plane

Gatland loves picking leftfield Kiwis, remember Teo on the tour last time round. Aki like Teo wont start and tests.

Think Te'o did start 1 didnt he? May be my failing memory.

He may have, I thought he just came on in one but probably wrong.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Collapse2005 wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:If Genge and Sinckler arent going because of their lack of self discipline how the hell did Marler get a call over them?

Because Marler is the best LH in Britain and Ireland perhaps?

Discipline clearly isn't a factor, otherwise Aki would not be on the plane

Gatland loves picking leftfield Kiwis, remember Teo on the tour last time round. Aki like Teo wont start and tests.

Think Te'o did start 1 didnt he? May be my failing memory.

He started the first test at 12 with Farrell at 10, was probably the best performing Lion on the day with the exception of Itoje once he came on in the second half. The back row were thoroughly outplayed from memory.

Yeah fair enough, I would have prefered him at 12 to Farrell but even though he wasnt great at 10 I guess Teo got the chop for the next two tests.

I've seen a few First Test XV selections, and it's striking how many don't include many club/national team combination. You don't need established partnerships, and part of the attraction is seeing new ones develop. BOD and Jamie Roberts in 2009; AWJ and Maro Itoje in 2017. However, as this squad has no real national core, we will probably need to see new ones develop fairly quickly.

Here's an idea of which players have played together.

Front Row
As none of the hookers have played with any of the tightheads, any front row combination will be new. Mako has played with all three hookers, while Wyn Jones and Owens know what to expect from each other.

Locks
AWJ played alongside Itoje and Henderson on the last Lions tour. Lawes was also on that tour, and came on as substitute in the last two Tests. Beirne and Henderson combined well against England in the Six Nations. For the last thirty minutes of that match, they were up against Itoje and Hill as a combination. There are probably more familiar combinations in the second row than any other part of the squad.

Hooker/Lock
If AWJ is nailed on to start, then we might get a lineout combination if Ken Owens starts. Similarly, if Itoje is there, and George starts. While Owens and George both have the Lions tour experience of four years ago, LCD only knows the English jumpers, in particular Hill from Exeter.

Back row
Aside from Tipuric and Faletau, no-one has played much in the same back row. Gatland has talked up Hamish Watson and Simmonds. Neither has any working relationship with the other back row players. While Curry and Simmonds never played in the same England team, Curry will have played some minutes with the English lock/blindsides candidates. Conan knows his Irish teamates, though I'm unsure what backrow experience he's had with any of them

No.8/Scrum Half
Faletau and Murray had a partnership four years ago. Davies knows Faletau, and Murray knows Conan. Meanwhile, none of the scrum halves have worked with Simmonds or Curry before.

Half-Backs
Davies knows Biggar, Price knows Russell, while Murray had some experience with Farrell four years ago. Any other combination of scrum half and fly half, including the widely tipped pairing of Murray and Biggar, will be starting from scratch.

Fly half/Inside centre
Here it all seems very new. Harris can play 12, so would be a familiar face for Russell. All the other potential combinations seem like they would not have played together.

Centres
Aki and Henshaw know each other well. Farrell will have trained with Daly, as they were due to be the England centre combination in March. Everyone other pairing will be new.

Back Three
You often see unfamiliar combinations here on a Lions tour. Hogg and Williams worked with Watson and Daly before, and the three Welshmen ought to have a decent understanding. Van der Merwe knows Hogg, and also the territory, which may be an asset.

Everyone knows Sexton and Murray are the best 9 and 10 combo around. Missed opportunity there.

Lads you're knocking lumps out of eachother for no reason. We are all on the same team here.

Genge and sinkler are not going because there are better props out there in Gatlands view - simple as that. Both Genge and Sinkler have short tempers and SA would use this against them.

One thing that that does excite me about the squad is there are quite a few speedy players even in the forwards. Watson, Simmons, Conan, Tipuric all have decent pace. Even Furlong can move for a loose head. Out the backs, Hogg, Rhys Zammit, Russell etc.

TJ wrote:Genge and sinkler are not going because there are better props out there in Gatlands view - simple as that.  Both Genge and Sinkler have short tempers and SA would use this against them.

I see this repeated all the time but examples are never given. I for instance can pinpoint an instance when Mako lost his cool, the second test four years ago when he was lucky to stay on the pitch for his 'clear out' of Barrett. Genge and Sinckler are both niggly players but short tempers? No.

TJ wrote:Both Genge and Sinkler have short tempers and SA would use this against them.

If this is correct, Farrell definitely shouldn't be on the plane!

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So why is everyone derailing the thread talking about a collosal c***
Dont give him the time / air space...

Move on and talk about rugby...

On the bright side it is something we can all agree about

Duty281 wrote:

TJ wrote:Both Genge and Sinkler have short tempers and SA would use this against them.

If this is correct, Farrell definitely shouldn't be on the plane!

I think Gatland must see Farrell as his first choice 10 otherwise I dont know why he would be in the squad, maybe for his versatility.

https://youtu.be/pjwAxvxlXEg

This video features Genge and Singler getting invilved in silly stuff.

Given we've been warned off pointing out why these 2 and Itoje are pulled up while others aren't mentioned it feels a bit unfair to continue pretending there are valid reasons.

Give it a rest man

Collapse2005 wrote:https://youtu.be/pjwAxvxlXEg

This video features Genge and Singler getting invilved in silly stuff.

Starts off with that poor delicate flower POM getting upset over something, which never ever ever happens unless he's been provoked, because he never ever does the silly stuff. Not the best example to start with.

Well as sarge said drop it as we can't debate it properly.

Pom is definitely an emotional guy, I wouldnt have picked him either but I've never been his biggest fan.

That's a weak video to be fair....

The thing with Sinks is that Gatland has had a look at him in the previous squad and there is a valid case that he perhaps didn't fancy him for his off the field persona?

If he's wound a few people up, maybe it was decided to go another way, hardly shocking stuff really.

Collapse2005 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TJ wrote:Both Genge and Sinkler have short tempers and SA would use this against them.

If this is correct, Farrell definitely shouldn't be on the plane!

I think Gatland must see Farrell as his first choice 10 otherwise I dont know why he would be in the squad, maybe for his versatility.

I’m not so sure.  You might be right.  But we’re really struggling for centres and, while I know Farrell isn’t in great form, he does have that international experience as a centre, accurate kicker and can play as a 2nd distributor which the other 12s picked cannot do (to my knowledge).  So maybe he’s picked to cover both 10 and 12.  Maybe not 1st choice 10 but if he’s playing 12 and we need it then he’s there. Or maybe he covers both from the bench.  Maybe Gatland likes the look of the England 10-12 axis?  If so, then maybe Russell is in the hot seat as a version of Ford (creative running 10) and Farrell at 12.  Like I said though, he’s not in form according to England fans but is there anyone else on tour who can play the distributing 2nd 5/8th role like Farrell?  Dunno.  Just me thinking out loud really.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So why is everyone derailing the thread talking about a collosal c***
Dont give him the time / air space...

Move on and talk about rugby...

Its hard not to bring Gatland into the conversation

Gooseberry wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:So why is everyone derailing the thread talking about a collosal c***
Dont give him the time / air space...

Move on and talk about rugby...

Its hard not to bring Gatland into the conversation

Ha

AWJ as captain.   I have never been a huge fan of his however in this years 6N IMO what won it for wales was composure and discipline.    AWJ must take a large part of the credit for that.   He is good enough to be starting the tests - just about-but that quality he brought to wales that won them the 6N gets him in as captain

And I hate the So and so ( Edited for swearfilter sillyness) :-)

Is there a player each of us has in mind that thinks they could be the player that comes in and produces a definitive performance? Without saying who you'd like to drop out I think Ringrose could drop into this group and do it.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:That's a weak video to be fair....

The thing with Sinks is that Gatland has had a look at him in the previous squad and there is a valid case that he perhaps didn't fancy him for his off the field persona?

If he's wound a few people up, maybe it was decided to go another way, hardly shocking stuff really.

Cant say I agree really but each to their own. There are plenty of examples of those lads getting wound up and losing their cool as there are with other guys with similar reputations. Not sure what the big deal is really.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is there a player each of us has in mind that thinks they could be the player that comes in and produces a definitive performance?  Without saying who you'd like to drop out I think Ringrose could drop into this group and do it.

Im sure there will be call ups that will end up in the test squad, there usually are.

Anyhoo, back to more positive stuff. Here’s a nice video of Chris Harris and Louis Rees Zammit finding out they got in. Nice stuff:

The Oracle wrote:.............. So maybe he’s picked to cover both 10 and 12.  Maybe not 1st choice 10 but if he’s playing 12 and we need it then he’s there. Or maybe he covers both from the bench.  Maybe Gatland likes the look of the England 10-12 axis?  If so, then maybe Russell is in the hot seat as a version of Ford (creative running 10) and Farrell at 12.  Like I said though, he’s not in form according to England fans but is there anyone else on tour who can play the distributing 2nd 5/8th role like Farrell?  Dunno.  Just me thinking out loud really.

I see zero point in playing Farrell outside Russell. Russell needs someone who runs lines outside him who can act as decoy and who can run loops. If Farrell plays it has to be at 10. Personally I would start Biggar with Russell on the bench in case you need some batshit crazyness

Collapse2005 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Is there a player each of us has in mind that thinks they could be the player that comes in and produces a definitive performance?  Without saying who you'd like to drop out I think Ringrose could drop into this group and do it.

Im sure there will be call ups that will end up in the test squad, there usually are.

Same question then. Is there a player you have in mind.

TJ wrote:

The Oracle wrote:.............. So maybe he’s picked to cover both 10 and 12.  Maybe not 1st choice 10 but if he’s playing 12 and we need it then he’s there. Or maybe he covers both from the bench.  Maybe Gatland likes the look of the England 10-12 axis?  If so, then maybe Russell is in the hot seat as a version of Ford (creative running 10) and Farrell at 12.  Like I said though, he’s not in form according to England fans but is there anyone else on tour who can play the distributing 2nd 5/8th role like Farrell?  Dunno.  Just me thinking out loud really.

I see zero point in playing Farrell outside Russell.  Russell needs someone who runs lines outside him who can act as decoy and who can run loops.   If Farrell plays it has to be at 10.  Personally I would start Biggar with Russell on the bench in case you need some batshit crazyness

Yeah, I see your point TJ. I was thinking that for England Farrell plays at 12 next to a not so conservative 10 in Ford. The equivalent not so conservative 10 on this tour is Russell. So my logic was that it, in a way, could mirror Englands set up. I could see no point in, say, Biggar at 10 and Farrell at 12. Too similar.