England's Summer of Cricket 2021

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That's the important wicket. Deserved for Robinson and England.

Now into that brittle middle order.

Fair enough , msp. You chaps have the win , reckon you can award the laurels

king_carlos wrote:

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:There are drops and then there are Drops. This wasn't an easy take, but when your best bowler is in the middle of such a performance, letting him down, is just criminal!

It's ok....he did well to get to the ball...was too far out¨
Next game Vihari will be in for Rahane

Hope it'll be Suryakumar and not Vihari.

Being up in the series (presumably) I have a feeling that they will be more inclined to stay aggressive and take the chance on SKY.

Jinx has been so important to this Indian teams growth with his good record away from home and against seam, plus his slip catching to the spinners in particular and as Kohli's most valuable lieutenant for a long time. He just isn't doing it with the bat anymore though, sadly. It would be a shame for such a likable character and important player in this era of Indian Test cricket to drift out in this manner. I hope he can re-find form and come back at some point.

Agree with all that, Carlos. Though I like him a little less for the time being, for that drop! Yes he has been a fine player, yes he's a good sounding board for Kohli. Yes he has had a better away record.
But yes, he just isn't scoring the runs that matter. And yes, hope he can do a Dada, and come back in with even better performances, and hopefully, there is some more left in the tank. But, it can't be in the next test, he's fast becoming unselectable. Vikram Rathore, the batting coatch was suggesting that Rahane's form is not yet a concern. But that could have been because he was speaking in the middle of the test.
The only hope for Rahane now, is that Kohli and the team management might decide that for the series decider, they would bank on experience rather than experiment.

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Woakes gone as well now.

Credit to India they have bowled very well in this session and will deservedly win this Test having been the better team across the 5 days.

England have shot themselves in the foot in so many ways, with dropped catches and dodgy captaincy, and lost a test match they had no business losing (for the second time this series). But nice that this one is, in the end, decided by a world-class spell of bowling rather than outright ineptitude (as in the second test).

All that just falls into the list of why England are simply the worse team though in my opinion, Duty.

Root's captaincy has never been the strongest but I always feel for skippers that just don't have the players. Anderson and Robinson looked knackered in that second innings, Woakes bowled well in bursts but looked understandably rusty as the innings wore on, Overton didn't show up in the second dig and without the seamers keeping things tight England couldn't allow Mo to attack which was presumably the plan when picking a spinner with a strong strike rate.

With Stokes and Archer available (plus Woakes fit for the full series) it may well have been different but with those significant absentees England have just looked the worse side across the series.

I do wonder if Root may decide his time is done with the captaincy if they don't win at Old Trafford. Losing two home Test series, albeit to the no 1 and 2 Test sides in the world, will be tough to take and taking this mob to an away Ashes series must be a painful thought at the minute.

Lord knows what England can do for the next match , given all the bowlers in - or likely heading to - the sick bay.

Woakes should be fine - and vitally can bat at seven (though I'd far rather the keeper ; whether it be Bairstow, Buttler , Foakes - or our very own Olly , to be at seven after six bats : can't be done because they have to have five bowlers)

Who 8-11 are is anyone's guess. Wood presumably - I'd have played him here to be honest . Leach ? They do say it will spin at Old Trafford.
Can Anderson or Robinson rock up again ? And if not , who ?

Very hard to see past India 3-1 now.

Without Robinson or Anderson plus all all injuries, I can't actually come up with a team for the final Test. Or one that doesn't look completely terrible on paper!

Duty281 wrote:

alfie wrote:Duty , I take your point about the team balance thing being less important if only Jimmy is considered a real tailender - though should note that it is only in this game that the presence of Woakes at eight  and Overton nine has really extended the batting.

The real issue with Moeen is that he is a bit of a horses for courses selection (even disregarding the runs he might make). On the typical "English" pitch which aids the seamers to some extent throughout , he can do a very good job as the extra link : he has a good strike rate and often provides the finishing touches to a pace attack which is largely on top. Quite a few games where he's done exactly what England needed - including a couple against India !
What he cannot do is provide the sort of control that Jadeja does for India - or indeed any real control : and on a pitch like this that means that he can't be used to rest and rotate the fast bowlers.
I had no problem with his selection for the earlier games. This one was always likely to present a problem if India got a good start in the third innings. Might have been a problem for Leach too ?

Imagine the selectors will be having a bit of a discussion this week.

Selectors haven't got a lot right, but in fairness this is an utter freak time with the number of injuries England have suffered. Can't remember a test team being so injury-hit.

Anderson (especially) and Robinson sorely need breaks, but will they both get one for the fifth test? Can Woakes play back-to-back tests having only just returned?

Well, India in Australia last year? The skipper was missing for 3 of the 4 test on leave, Rohit missed a test with injury, Ashwin and Jadeja, Vihari, Bumrah, Shami, Umesh. Bhuvneshwar and Ishant couldn't even make the squad with injuries. That's 5 of the top 5 seamers, 2 of the top 2 spinners, the best batter, the first reserve batter, and an opener who was evolving into a top test player.

I tend to think it's in the best interests of the team long term to cancel the ashes series, use the covid protocols as an excuse to not go.

alfie wrote:Fair enough , msp.  You chaps have the win , reckon you can award the laurels

You and I know alfie, that it is a batter's game, and that they are going to give it to Rohit. He played a fabulous innings, so fair enough, but... My order of preference would be Shardul, Bumrah, Rohit...

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:Woakes gone as well now.

Credit to India they have bowled very well in this session and will deservedly win this Test having been the better team across the 5 days.

England have shot themselves in the foot in so many ways, with dropped catches and dodgy captaincy, and lost a test match they had no business losing (for the second time this series). But nice that this one is, in the end, decided by a world-class spell of bowling rather than outright ineptitude (as in the second test).

All that just falls into the list of why England are simply the worse team though in my opinion, Duty.

Root's captaincy has never been the strongest but I always feel for skippers that just don't have the players. Anderson and Robinson looked knackered in that second innings, Woakes bowled well in bursts but looked understandably rusty as the innings wore on, Overton didn't show up in the second dig and without the seamers keeping things tight England couldn't allow Mo to attack which was presumably the plan when picking a spinner with a strong strike rate.

With Stokes and Archer available (plus Woakes fit for the full series) it may well have been different but with those significant absentees England have just looked the worse side across the series.

I do wonder if Root may decide his time is done with the captaincy if they don't win at Old Trafford. Losing two home Test series, albeit to the no 1 and 2 Test sides in the world, will be tough to take and taking this mob to an away Ashes series must be a painful thought at the minute.

Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

VTR wrote:Without Robinson or Anderson plus all all injuries, I can't actually come up with a team for the final Test. Or one that doesn't look completely terrible on paper!

It's time for Darren Stevens. At last. Fate can only deny him for so long.

msp83 wrote:

alfie wrote:Fair enough , msp.  You chaps have the win , reckon you can award the laurels

You and I know alfie, that it is a batter's game, and that they are going to give it to Rohit. He played a fabulous innings, so fair enough, but... My order of preference would be Shardul, Bumrah, Rohit...

Aha...you must be a bowler too , msp ? It's true , isn't it ? As Freddie Trueman said a long time ago - speaking of batsmen being the favoured ones :

"The last bowler to be knighted was Sir Francis Drake ! "

alfie wrote:

msp83 wrote:

alfie wrote:Fair enough , msp.  You chaps have the win , reckon you can award the laurels

You and I know alfie, that it is a batter's game, and that they are going to give it to Rohit. He played a fabulous innings, so fair enough, but... My order of preference would be Shardul, Bumrah, Rohit...

Aha...you must be a bowler too , msp ?  It's true , isn't it ?  As Freddie Trueman said a long time ago - speaking of batsmen being the favoured ones :

"The last bowler to be knighted was Sir Francis Drake ! "

I know! The bowlers do the harder yards, all the time
!

Duty281 wrote:
Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

I'm not sure England were ahead for most of this Test to be honest.

Obviously bowling India out for 191 put them ahead immediately on day 1 but then faltering to 62-5 in 24 overs brought things fairly even part way through day 2 I thought. England's lower order rally from Pope, Bairstow, Moeen and Woakes brought England back ahead but they were never unassailable. Particularly with India rallying to 43-0 at the end of day 2.

I'd say England won days 1 and 2 then India comprehensibly won days 3, 4 and 5. Ahead for day 1 and 2 doesn't represent being ahead for most the Test to me. India certainly won moving day on day 3!

The India top 3 batting 80 overs in second innings won the match even though Rohit and Pujara fell to the second new ball. England's seamers were exhausted and the India's lower order took full advantage of that platform to take the match away from England.

Well that's a nasty blow for Overton. It really will be time for Darren Stevens if he's injured!

On the injury thing : India were brilliant in Australia , winning with all those injuries. To lose most of their first choice bowlers and still win was just outstanding.

At the same time it also illustrates that Australia really aren't anything special right now - even at home.  If England had a moderately "good" batting lineup instead of Root and a collection of hopefuls they'd be a decent chance as long as they could muster four or five fit pace bowlers.
They've arguably made the same error that Australia did also : over-cooked Anderson in particular when this might have been the game to rest him and pick Wood or even Mahmood. Though you can see why they didn't : Broad , Archer missing , plus Stone . And no Stokes - the biggest missing piece.

India have been prepared to mix their pace men and got the reward here. Though Thakur probably did a more important job with the bat !

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

I'm not sure England were ahead for most of this Test to be honest.

Obviously bowling India out for 191 put them ahead immediately on day 1 but then faltering to 62-5 in 24 overs brought things fairly even part way through day 2 I thought. England's lower order rally from Pope, Bairstow, Moeen and Woakes brought England back ahead but they were never unassailable. Particularly with India rallying to 43-0 at the end of day 2.

I'd say England won days 1 and 2 then India comprehensibly won days 3, 4 and 5. Ahead for day 1 and 2 doesn't represent being ahead for most the Test to me. India certainly won moving day on day 3!

The India top 3 batting 80 overs in second innings won the match even though Rohit and Pujara fell to the second new ball. England's seamers were exhausted and the India's lower order took full advantage of that platform to take the match away from England.

Good summary , KC . Reckon that is spot on

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

I'm not sure England were ahead for most of this Test to be honest.

Obviously bowling India out for 191 put them ahead immediately on day 1 but then faltering to 62-5 in 24 overs brought things fairly even part way through day 2 I thought. England's lower order rally from Pope, Bairstow, Moeen and Woakes brought England back ahead but they were never unassailable. Particularly with India rallying to 43-0 at the end of day 2.

I'd say England won days 1 and 2 then India comprehensibly won days 3, 4 and 5. Ahead for day 1 and 2 doesn't represent being ahead for most the Test to me. India certainly won moving day on day 3!

The India top 3 batting 80 overs in second innings won the match even though Rohit and Pujara fell to the second new ball. England's seamers were exhausted and the India's lower order took full advantage of that platform to take the match away from England.

Good summary , KC . Reckon that is spot on

Indeed, very well put, Carlos.
Anyways in Duty's world, England had won the first test, they should have won the 2nd test, and they were winning this test all the way up to lunch on day 5...

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

I'm not sure England were ahead for most of this Test to be honest.

Obviously bowling India out for 191 put them ahead immediately on day 1 but then faltering to 62-5 in 24 overs brought things fairly even part way through day 2 I thought. England's lower order rally from Pope, Bairstow, Moeen and Woakes brought England back ahead but they were never unassailable. Particularly with India rallying to 43-0 at the end of day 2.

I'd say England won days 1 and 2 then India comprehensibly won days 3, 4 and 5. Ahead for day 1 and 2 doesn't represent being ahead for most the Test to me. India certainly won moving day on day 3!

The India top 3 batting 80 overs in second innings won the match even though Rohit and Pujara fell to the second new ball. England's seamers were exhausted and the India's lower order took full advantage of that platform to take the match away from England.

The key moment, for me, was the Pant/Thakur partnership. At that point India were effectively 212/6 and that was where Root's captaincy undermined his side. Yes, England were a little fatigued, but not greatly so at that point. The innings should have been wrapped up with the lead under 250, but Root set the wrong fields and made the wrong bowling choices.

The top three batting 80 overs gave India a solid platform, but England were still ahead at that point in the context of the game, as we know how brittle India's middle-order can be and the English bowlers had a overnight rest.

Even from the point of conceding a large lead, England should have drawn the game at the very least, but for that exceptional spell from Bumrah.

Poor old Anderson, will have to face up to Umesh now. Umesh and Bumrah have cranked up the pace and are not shy of exploring the middle of the pitch.
Feel for both Bumrah and Anderson. Anderson deserves better than this from his team, Bumrah's efforts and his brilliance deserves more than the 2 sticks he got...

msp83 wrote:

alfie wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:
Seems like a smash'n'grab win to me. England have been ahead for most of this test, but just faltered at the key moments and then undone by Bumrah. Similar to the second test where England controlled most of it before Root's folly on the final morning.

Would have definitely been different with the absentees available. This is a very close series and England have managed that despite losing most of their bowling resources which, in turn, has had a knock-on effect to Anderson/Robinson.

Equally wouldn't be surprised to see Root resign the captaincy. Australia offers nothing more than 5-0 and a team falling apart, as in 2013/14.

I'm not sure England were ahead for most of this Test to be honest.

Obviously bowling India out for 191 put them ahead immediately on day 1 but then faltering to 62-5 in 24 overs brought things fairly even part way through day 2 I thought. England's lower order rally from Pope, Bairstow, Moeen and Woakes brought England back ahead but they were never unassailable. Particularly with India rallying to 43-0 at the end of day 2.

I'd say England won days 1 and 2 then India comprehensibly won days 3, 4 and 5. Ahead for day 1 and 2 doesn't represent being ahead for most the Test to me. India certainly won moving day on day 3!

The India top 3 batting 80 overs in second innings won the match even though Rohit and Pujara fell to the second new ball. England's seamers were exhausted and the India's lower order took full advantage of that platform to take the match away from England.

Good summary , KC . Reckon that is spot on

Indeed, very well put, Carlos.
Anyways in Duty's world, England had won the first test, they should have won the 2nd test, and they were winning this test all the way up to lunch on day 5...

That's about the sum of it. Rain denied England in the first, Root's terrible captaincy cost England the 2nd, and England controlled most of this one only for Root to undermine England again.

Ah well, them's the breaks.

England were ahead of the game until the Pant/Thakur partnership yesterday, all too often they've let the tail add far too many runs. At 312/6 yesterday they retreated wary of what Thakur had done in the first innings, the 150 runs added from that point have turned this game in India's favour. Root when under pressure loses the plot, he bowled Robinson and Anderson too much early in the second innings when Moeen and Overton should have been used.

India win.

World-class from Bumrah and Yadav cleaned up the lower-order.

Not sure what state England will be in for the fifth test!

Fabulous for India. What a come back from 78 all out, and 191 sandwiched by 8 for 63. To post 466, and then bowl England out on a flat track on day 5. Brilliant from Rohit, Rahul, Pujara, Pant, Thakur, Umesh, Jadeja, and of course, the one and only Jasprit Bumrah! The skipper, besides being able to justify his selections, scored important runs too. Mohammed Siraj was off his game, and Ajinkya Rahane has only a team performance of the highest class to remember this otherwise forgettable test for him. But 9 out of the 11 players contributing well, a complete team performance.

England had a chance to give themselves a big lead on day 2, too many loose shots in great conditions

Well it's official now...all out 210 and a comprehensive win for India ...

Congrats to Kholi and his men

Must admit I've been perplexed at the absence of Ashwin : but reckon this win has proved Kohli and Shastri know what they're doing.

Rohit , Rahul , Pujara ...and of course Thakur , Bumrah - could name virtually the whole team ... Brilliant performance.

Really still hope England can come back from this on Friday and level up again but I fear that's more a dream than a serious prospect. Hats off to India

India, after the celebrations are over, when thinking of the team combination, should think of retaining Umesh if Shami is fit and replace Siraj. Siraj had overtaken Umesh in the pecking order, but the veteran seamer has once again made a strong claim for himself. Umesh's challenge across his decade long career though, has been to put together 2 consistent games...

Well if india are ever going to win in England. This is a pretty poor England side, where the two best bowlers are likely to be very tired ahead of Friday. India have the pace unit in place with good options to come in, plus Rohit finally turning potential into overseas results. I reckon this is the once in every 20 years chance India have to take

Thoroughly deserved and hard fought win for India. They are a special band of players with all the necessary self-belief and ability to get the job done under considerable pressure. Anything could happen at OT but I have a feeling India will be more than ready for the challenge.

Well I thought India would bounce back after Headingley. There was no way England were going to get anywhere near the target today, although I thought they might at least make 250.

Many wrote England off after Lord's and some wrote India off after Leeds. Given the propensity of not only England but also India to collapse I still think England can level the series at OT.

Those prepared to have a go at England should recognise that this is a strong India side who can afford to leave out a Test-great spinner.

England have been without Stokes and Archer and, for nearly all the series, Broad. Foakes might also have played.

Still, whatever the result at OT it's been a cracking series.

One thing that has been significant in this series is surely that the Indian tail , so derided by all of us on here , has now arguably been the decisive factor in both India's wins with late order runs. While England's supposedly deep batting order has largely folded up - even when the upper order did produce the goods.
Not so much today - was all over before the tail got in . But in the other games - apart from Woakes on Friday - no one down the order has really been more than a speed hump for India's attack.

Funny series in a way because at times you look at the two sides and think : India are hugely better , man for man . And then you consider that Duty has something of a point (even if he massively overstates it !) in that England have definitely been on top at various stages of both the games they've contrived to lose...
So I'm thinking that there should be some credit given to both sides for what they've done to produce a series that is now 2-1 with one game to play : India for coping with conditions they've often struggled with in the past ; and for fighting back when they've looked nearly down and out.
And England for managing to compete quite strongly with a team that most would agree is superior in skills and experience at this point in time - despite being deprived of several notable key players for the whole series.

Rohit gets the PoTM ...not going to argue

Unsurprisingly, its Rohit Sharma that they gave the Player-of-the-Match to.

Duty281 wrote:The key moment, for me, was the Pant/Thakur partnership. At that point India were effectively 212/6 and that was where Root's captaincy undermined his side. Yes, England were a little fatigued, but not greatly so at that point. The innings should have been wrapped up with the lead under 250, but Root set the wrong fields and made the wrong bowling choices.

The top three batting 80 overs gave India a solid platform, but England were still ahead at that point in the context of the game, as we know how brittle India's middle-order can be and the English bowlers had a overnight rest.

Even from the point of conceding a large lead, England should have drawn the game at the very least, but for that exceptional spell from Bumrah.

For me key was Rohit with support from Pujara on D3 as it built that platform, put the pressure back on England and knackered the bowlers.

To me the England attack looked quite tired taking the 2nd new ball actually. They mustered a bit of energy, especially with that strange Rohit dismissal and Pujara going straight after but they looked heavy legged already at that point.

Thakur is an interesting one. If you look at his domestic batting record compared to India record it seems his batting coming off his a complete fluke but fluke or not he's still scoring those vital runs. In the 2018 series quite few people knocking England's win said, "if not for Sam Curran's unexpected innings", to which I always said, "yep but Sam still scored those runs whether unexpected or not!"

I thought Pant played the situation well too it should be said after what has been a poor series with the bat for a player I really love watching. His keeping has come on such a long way in a short period of time in Test cricket.

Before the series I said that I thought this India side were a much tougher unit compared to 2018, wouldn't collapse as they have in the past after a bad session/day/innings and would be more ruthless in punishing England when they had poor sessions/days/innings. To me that's what happened here. Beaten by a better team.

With Anderson and Robinson both looking fatigued, Mahmood off the field for Lancashire and Surran so out of form on top of the Stokes, Broad and Archer absences it's really hard to see where England go with selection for T5.

I actually thought Anderson looked a bit less exhausted than Robinson in this Test so he may actually be the more likely to play on his home ground. Wood will surely come back in and Leach might too but I'm really unsure in what combinations.

1.Burns
2.Hameed
3.Malan
4.Root (c)
5.Pope
6.Bairstow (wk)
7.Woakes
8.Overton
9.Wood
10.Leach
11.Anderson

Perhaps something like that? I like to think I'm usually a tediously optimistic cricket fan (my catchphrase for most of this summer has been "cricket is cricket") but it really is uninspiring!

ONLY ONE TEAM CAN LOSE THIS SERIES now

Let this sink into Indian fans...that Ind enter into the last test with the possibility of making it a 3-1 walloping
It's not beyond Eng though to rebound nor beyond kohli to screw up last test and end 2-2, which also would be credible in English conditions and given our history.

9 tests this year between the sides though combined a scoreline of 6-2 wouldn't be bad finish.

Where Eng lost it was not on D5 IMO...but on D4....having had a great first session, they allowed Ind somehow to get to 470 odd and the lead 370ish chasing down, that would have been a Historical anomaly.
Their realistic chance was if they kept Ind to 275ish and Root score a 100 or at least an 80 odd.

Ind's bowling is superior on an all condition basis but the differential between the sides narrows or annuls if the pitch is seaming and swinging type where English 80 odd mph medium pacers get propped up and that's probably not likely to be the case in Manchester.

Ind could digest the loss of Shami nonchalantly and still have Prasidh Krishna who could step in and bowl express pace if needed...he can hit 95mph
Kohli loves to control the game with Pace in these conditions and spin only a holding option until getting into D5

Next game replacing Rahane will be the only and most likely change unless a niggle keeps one of the seam bowlers out
Most likely Vihari in for Rahane & with an outside chance SKY

For Eng since they have a bowling allrounder now in Woakes they could look at playing Leach for Ali

Anderson needs rest....and a strapping fast bowler should replace him...any strapping young lad who can consistently hit 85mph + would do.

If India can secure the series win it will cap a remarkable year in Test cricket for them. Away series win in Australia with a huge number of players missing, thrashing of England in India, WTC final (yep, they lost but still a great achievement being in the final) and a potential series win in England. If India win the series would they go number 1 in the ICC Test rankings as well?

Duty281 wrote:The key moment, for me, was the Pant/Thakur partnership. At that point India were effectively 212/6

Yes the 2nd session on D4 is where Eng somehow let it go down the irreversible slippery slope

Think your team might be close to right , KC... Woakes Wood Anderson (if he can fire up after his exertions here) and Leach would probably be my main four bowlers.

If it looks really like a spinning pitch maybe they might retain Moeen rather than Overton ? Or even revert to Bess ? But to be honest the way India play spin I am not sure two spinners - any two spinnerswould be more than a gesture , and unlikely to worry Kohli & co at all.

Whoever they pick , just have to believe that they can gain an advantage over India if they play well enough - as they have done in each of three games ; only to relinquish it twice
... and concentrate on not letting the advantage slip...

Perhaps easier said than done against a strong and confident India ? But we will see on Friday.

alfie wrote:Think your team might be close to right , KC... Woakes Wood Anderson (if he can fire up after his exertions here) and Leach would probably be my main four bowlers.

If it looks really like a spinning pitch maybe they might retain Moeen rather than Overton ? Or even revert to Bess ?  But to be honest the way India play spin I am not sure two spinners - any two spinnerswould be more than a gesture , and unlikely to worry Kohli & co at all.

Whoever they pick , just have to believe that they can gain an advantage over India if they play well enough - as they have done in each of three games ; only to relinquish it twice
... and concentrate on not letting the advantage slip...

Perhaps easier said than done against a strong and confident India ? But we will see on Friday.

It's so frustrating for Saqib to have an injury. He'd be the ideal sort of bowler to bring in as he's got pace, can swing the ball and would be playing on his home pitch at Old Trafford.

I can't see England reverting to Bess over Moeen for this series. It's interesting that Bess is batting at 6 for Yorkshire though. Clearly trying to turn himself into a genuine all rounder. I just hope his bowling doesn't take a back track due to it and he slip down the route of Borthwick.

Why on earth would England prepare a spinning pitch? I am sure its more than possible, but what other country would roll out exactly what the opposition want in the deciding game!

VTR wrote:Why on earth would England prepare a spinning pitch? I am sure its more than possible, but what other country would roll out exactly what the opposition want in the deciding game!

England won't want a bunsen but Old Trafford has tended to spin more than most wickets in England in recent years hasn't it?

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:The key moment, for me, was the Pant/Thakur partnership. At that point India were effectively 212/6

Yes the 2nd session on D4 is where Eng somehow let it go down the irreversible slippery slope

Second session : plus don't forget the last twenty minutes of the first session ; might have been even more important.

Kohli gone ; Pant was on 12 and half of them were overthows ; Thakur just in . Woakes bowls a maiden : and then he takes Woakes off ; and bowls Moeen and Overton in tandem up to lunch. Without over-attacking fields.

The fact that Moeen had got Kohli and the left handed Pant was in probably convinced him to persist - unwisely I think - with spin. But to also have the least dangerous of his seamers at the other end to a new batsman compounded the error.

Thakur might have made it to lunch and blazed away successfully anyway , as he did in the first innings. But I think when the game is on the line you have to go immediately with your two best bowlers at the new batsman. And Root didn't.

king_carlos wrote:

VTR wrote:Why on earth would England prepare a spinning pitch? I am sure its more than possible, but what other country would roll out exactly what the opposition want in the deciding game!

England won't want a bunsen but Old Trafford has tended to spin more than most wickets in England in recent years hasn't it?

It has tended to, but pretty sure a different kind of pitch could have been prepared to order. Like the nibbling pitches we got in the 2015 Ashes after England were thrashed at Lords

I see England have lost....In the US we put a lot of stock in averages especially Baseball which is the nearest to cricket....They generally don't lie...

I notice your first choice opener averages 32....and apart from Root does anyone have a World class average..

Since I came over in 89...Gooch..Stewart...Trescothick types always took the attack to the opposition...Hayden...Warner likewise for Australia...

Your current trend don't hurt the opening bowlers...Surely England should either try Bairstow up top or another charger so Burns or Habeeb can play possum...England need more positivity up front me thinks

Bowling is fine..

Forgive the intrusion.

I think we may have tried that with Alex Hales and more recently Jason Roy. Have a look at their averages and see how they got on, it isn't good reading!

And someone suggested on the BBC comments yesterday evening (quite high-rated too) that England should have started the chase with Bairstow and Woakes 'pinch-hitting'.

Apparently this would have put India on the backfoot straight away, though I have my doubts about that!

The issue is runs rather than aggression as always, Truss. People often note Warner being so aggressive but he averages nearly 50. Likewise with Hayden. Trescothick was prolific in County cricket. Gooch is one of England's best ever. Stewie was a brilliant opening batsman. If England had an opener in FC cricket averaging well they'd be picked regardless of style.

They tried Jason Roy at the top because of his success opening in white ball cricket and it was a disaster. I'd expect little better from Bairstow at the top. One day cricket and Test cricket are completely different sports in many respects.

England just aren't producing Test quality batsman due to many issues with our county system. An overhaul of the system at domestic level is needed.

One of my favourite stats from Alex Hales being tried as England's response to David Warner is that not only did Hales score no runs he actually scored at a worse strike rate than Alastair Cook.

Also if England are trying to get a David Warner style opener in England, they have been succeeding ever since Strauss retired as Warner averages 26 in 13 Tests in England.

KP_fan wrote:ONLY ONE TEAM CAN LOSE THIS SERIES now

Let this sink into Indian fans...that Ind enter into the last test with the possibility of making it a  3-1 walloping
It's not beyond Eng though to rebound nor beyond kohli to screw up last test and end 2-2, which also would be credible in English conditions and given our history.

9 tests this year between the sides though  combined a scoreline of 6-2 wouldn't be bad finish.

Where Eng lost it was not on D5 IMO...but on D4....having had  a great first session, they allowed Ind somehow to get to 470 odd and the lead 370ish chasing down, that would have been a Historical anomaly.
Their realistic chance was if they kept Ind to 275ish and Root score a 100 or at least an 80 odd.

Ind's bowling is superior on an all condition basis but the differential between the sides narrows or annuls if the pitch is seaming and swinging type where English 80 odd mph medium pacers get propped up and that's probably not likely to be the case in Manchester.

Ind could digest the loss of Shami nonchalantly and still have Prasidh Krishna who could step in and  bowl express pace if needed...he can hit 95mph
Kohli loves to control the game with Pace in these conditions and spin only a holding option until getting into D5

Next game replacing Rahane will be the only and most likely change unless a niggle keeps one of the seam bowlers out
Most likely Vihari in for Rahane & with an outside chance SKY

For Eng since they have a bowling allrounder now in Woakes they could look at playing Leach for Ali

Anderson needs rest....and a strapping fast bowler should replace him...any strapping young lad  who can consistently hit 85mph +  would do.

For India, think Siraj could do with a rest. Prasidh has potential, but he's far too inexperienced even at the First Class level. If Shami isn't fit, would continue with the same attack provided all are good to go. If Shami is available, he comes in for Siraj. Hope Rohit's hamstring and Pujara's ankle will be fine.
Hope Kohli will be his daring self with the Rahane replacement. Vihari is the conventional choice. He has the FC record, he has played at this level, He has been the first reserve in line, and he can even bowl a bit of offspin.
Suryakumar on the other hand, has found greater maturity as he progressed in his domestic career, brought greater all-round consistency to his game, and has a great range of shots against both spin and pace alike. He has shown his top level temperament in his limited-overs outings for India. His FC record, while not as good as that of Vihari, is still impressive enough. And its now or never for Suryakumar... He does bowl now and then for Mumbai as well.
As for England, agree on Leach being given an opportunity. I was saying this during the New Zealand series, Woakes should have played those tests and Leach, if he's the one they see as their number 1 spinner, should have then played in place of one of the other quicks. I don't see Leach as a massive improvement on Moeen though. He's never going to be in the Jadeja league, and I remember Pant battering him about as if he was an annoying little fly in India. If he's benched for the next game for Leach, Moeen can't complain too much, he really played a terrible shot in the first innings when a good score seemed well on cards. But one thing England shouldn't do is to go in with 4 quicks including Woakes, or play 5 quicks, they must play a spinner... Considering their Root-or-Bust situation, they might give Moeen one more opportunity...

JDizzle wrote:Also if England are trying to get a David Warner style opener in England, they have been succeeding ever since Strauss retired as Warner averages 26 in 13 Tests in England.

Averages 63 in Australia at a strike rate of 75 with 18 centuries though.

Whilst having such home dominant records prevents players such as Warner, Hayden, Sehwag, Rohit, etc competing for trivial things such as "greatest Test XI ever" it does mean that they usually help their sides to very healthy home records. From Australia, India and England's perspective the majority of your Tests are going to be played at home, if you have an opener with the home record those players have then you will be winning the majority of your home series. Not to be sniffed at!

It's one of the reason that whenever people criticise some players for only dominating in home conditions my response is that the majority of players that get a bite at Test cricket fail at home as well as away!