Joshua vs Usyk Predictions

First topic message reminder :

Well, the time is almost upon us for the Mandatory that couldn't be avoided: AJ vs Usyk with just over a week to go.

So how do we see this going? Usyk has movement and ringcraft to rival anyone in the lighter weights - plus he's not particularly shopworn. He's a very intelligent fighter. He will come into this fight full of confidence and with a gameplan, presumably to make the much larger Joshua look cumbersome and miss. But, as Mike Tyson famously said, "Everybody got a gameplan til they get punched in the face". And punching is something that AJ does very well.

As I have previously said in another thread, a punch from a top heavyweight is NOT like something you'd get in the cruisers. I just have this feeling that regardless of his expertise and long amateur career, Usyk is going to eat a big punch and it'll likely put him on the floor, and hard. I think he'll give AJ a couple of issues early, but I reckon AJ will be able to brush off his punches. Usyk did not give a masterclass in either of his HW fights, and certainly didn't trouble Chisora that much. Yes he beat him by UD, but wasn't Dereck taunting him to punch him properly?

Bear in mind that this is a unified Heavyweight Belt fight, and to win it in the holder's backyard, Usyk is going to have to do something special.

This goes 3 ways:

Usyk befuddles AJ and cruises to a tight UD.

AJ starts quickly, lands a huge punch in the first round and batters Usyk from then on, forcing an early stoppage.

AJ starts slowly, catches up with Usyk by about Rd 6 and sends him to sleep.

I feel it'll be one or 2 or 3. I just can't see 1 happening myself.

The term "undisputed" I suppose only has relevance in the era of multiple world sanctioning bodies. It doesn't mean dominating a division for a lengthy period of time.

AJ was awful. Usyk did what he needed to, came with a plan and was probably surprised with how easy it was. AJ simply didn't know what to do. Yes he can easily knock over the likes of Pulev, but here was someone who really honed their craft in the Amateur division and has shown everybody how it's done in the cruisers (which looked pretty easy for him) before outboxing and beating up a 2-time champion 20lbs and 3in bigger than him.

Credit goes to Usyk for his win, but it must be stated that the Joshua who beat Klitschko would likely have punched the Ukrainian's lights out by round 7. He has that fear of taking a big shot - had Usyk more firepower, the 31 year old AJ would have doubtless been stopped.

I have been an AJ fan but I think that the best plan for him now is to try a different trainer maybe - McCracken seems out of ideas, and AJ should have taken over and let his hands go.

For someone to let their punches go they need to hit the target or not be hit hard as they attempt to throw their punches. It has been said that Usyk bamboozled Fury for the first three rounds, AJ then adapted and started to hit Usyk and take a measure of control in rounds four to six, then Usyk moved up a gear winning round 7, AJ responded round 8, then AJ said his vision was affected from round 9 onwards and he couldn't see Usyk throwing his left hook and so became hesitant.

AJ said he wanted to box / fight Usyk and felt he was making progress until his vision was obscured from round 9 onwards. Others said AJ should never have tried to outbox Usyk and should have played rough and manhandled Usyk.

Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

catchweight wrote:Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

He got £50m for this, supposedly and I think in all likelihood the days of him getting £50m for a fight are probably over, but I think Conor McGregor has shown that once a fighter has a rabid enough fan base, even convincing losses to the king of the division can occur without significantly affecting the bottom line. Hell, Conor has gone 2-6 in PPVs the last six years, and he's sold 15m ppv buys.

Matchroom just signed to what is essentially a lifetime deal, and I can't believe Hearn didn't for a second consider the possibility that AJ might lose this fight, so obviously they've run their numbers and they believe that they've built it, and win or lose, the congregants of the Gospel according to AJ will come.

kingraf wrote:

catchweight wrote:Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

He got £50m for this, supposedly and I think in all likelihood the days of him getting £50m for a fight are probably over, but I think Conor McGregor has shown that once a fighter has a rabid enough fan base, even convincing losses to the king of the division can occur without significantly affecting the bottom line. Hell, Conor has gone 2-6 in PPVs the last six years, and he's sold 15m ppv buys.  

Matchroom just signed to what is essentially a lifetime deal, and I can't believe Hearn didn't for a second consider the possibility that AJ might lose this fight, so obviously they've run their numbers and they believe that they've built it, and win or lose, the congregants of the Gospel according to AJ will come.

The mega paydays are probably proviso on having a portion of the heavyweight title. You can’t imagine Matchroom paying Joshua £50m for non title fights.

At least he didn’t relinquish, least he shown himself a real man, an honourable man. What shame is there in losing to a better man in the night

I’m clutching at straws but maybe he could drop a stone and work on his hand speed

Tough to see what he can do in a rematch. One more and out maybe?

Need to scrap rematches for mandatories asap

Fury/Usyk is the one we want to see

Inventing Johnson Klute wrote:He's a great boxer, but the best in the planet?  If he is, then boxing is in average shape.

I think boxing on the whole is in average (and even that's maybe being charitable) shape, IJK. Whether that's due to a lack of great talent or the fact that matchmaking is often so abysmal in recent years is open to interpretation. Maybe it's a combination of both. But we were discussing potential pound for pound lists / candidates on here a few months back and the general consensus was that in many cases, there probably more reasons not to rank a lot the guys highly than there were to do so.

That's why I wouldn't necessarily take too much umbrage with anyone describing Usyk as the best in the world or number one pound for pound right now, even if I didn't agree. People have their own definition of what makes a pound for pounder in any case, but what is he up against which is clearly better or more deserving right now? Crawford hasn't beaten an impressive name in years. Canelo is the most privileged fighter in the sport, has his own clear deficiencies and has never beaten a really elite opponent as impressively as Usyk did the other night. Inoue is superb but he missed some big fights below 118 and his best win is a faded, albeit still dangerous Donaire. Personally I couldn't see Usyk beating Fury but Tyson's not fought in over a year-and-a-half and his record isn't as deep as Usyk's in comparative terms.

I guess you could still argue the case for Lomachenko if you mitigate for the loss against Lopez on the basis that he was the considerably smaller guy come fight night, and I have some sympathy for him as it looks like the champions at 135 are freezing him out of the title picture at the moment. But again it's been a while since he really wowed anyone and I think his best form was below Lightweight.

My main gripe with a lot of the pound for pounders or so-called leading fighters in the world tends to be not that they aren't talented, but more that they haven't proven themselves yet. I don't think you can really level that at Usyk. I'm not sure who deserves the title of world's best right now to be honest, but I don't think it's outrageous to favour Usyk for that title....Again, depending on your criteria.

The one person to really benefit from that result is the ordinary Campbell Hatton, an absolutely disgusting decision lost in the mire as thoughts turn to what AJ and Usyk will do next.
And yes i'm really annoyed at the decision as what does it show anyone that is looking at the boxing game. That it's more rigged than it ever has been.

As for the main event, like everyone else, thought Joshua looked way out of sorts, like he didn't want to be there and couldn't muster anything up at all. Whoever told him to try and outbox Usyk should immediately be sacked and replaced. We needed big strong AJ out there to try and bully him around, instead we got an AJ that looked like maybe he was in over his head.

He can come again but the big question will remain on if he wants too. He's made a ridiculous amount of money and is set up for life, will he really want to step back into the ring where every punch he throws is these days, analysed and more often than not fans say he's found wanting.

Happy for Usyk as he seems to genuinely love the sport, not sure he can beat Fury but it could be entertaining.

Anyone else see the footage of EH confronting a 'fan'

Jeff Navarro wrote:

kingraf wrote:

catchweight wrote:Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

He got £50m for this, supposedly and I think in all likelihood the days of him getting £50m for a fight are probably over, but I think Conor McGregor has shown that once a fighter has a rabid enough fan base, even convincing losses to the king of the division can occur without significantly affecting the bottom line. Hell, Conor has gone 2-6 in PPVs the last six years, and he's sold 15m ppv buys.  

Matchroom just signed to what is essentially a lifetime deal, and I can't believe Hearn didn't for a second consider the possibility that AJ might lose this fight, so obviously they've run their numbers and they believe that they've built it, and win or lose, the congregants of the Gospel according to AJ will come.

The mega paydays are probably proviso on having a portion of the heavyweight title. You can’t imagine Matchroom paying Joshua £50m for non title fights.

There's four titles. It would be pretty strange to think he won't be fighting in title fights or title eliminators every second fight for the foreseeable future if he so chooses, so if the argument is stakes, there won't be a shortage of those moving forward. It won't be £50m, but he's hardly going to be fighting for dinner moving forward. It's really just a question of:

- Does he think he can beat this guy
- Does he really wanna want to go through another night/couple nights not being able to see out of his one eye when there is nothing left to achieve for him as a fighter.

Yeah the Campbell Hatton decision was a joke. Let's be honest, it wasn't really a decision at all because there was no judging involved, it was just accepted beforehand that young Campbell was getting his hand raised and whatever happened between the ropes was immaterial.

Annoyed me how quick the Sky team were to gloss over it, too. Fair enough, nobody's asking them to drag the kid across the hot coals because it's not his fault, but can't they at least muster some kind of annoyance with this kind of carry on, rather than just accept it as 'part of the game' or whatever because it benefitted a British fighter?

There's actually nothing for Hatton to be embarrassed about because he's a novice fighter with a relatively brief amateur career, but these kind of fights need to be on small hall shows or tucked away much further down the running order on big fight nights like this. There's enough scrutiny on him as it is because of his surname (not that this is without its perks, mind you) but the ridicule he'll get because of this very public setback surely can't help him.

If they are serious about him making any kind of impact on his own merits there's a hell of a lot to work on. Martinez was 2-4 and he actually made him look like a very skilful fighter in there at times! Telling thing for me was how Martinez couldn't even muster any kind of protest or anger when the result was announced. Looks like he knew he was going to get hosed whatever he did.

kingraf wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:

kingraf wrote:

catchweight wrote:Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

He got £50m for this, supposedly and I think in all likelihood the days of him getting £50m for a fight are probably over, but I think Conor McGregor has shown that once a fighter has a rabid enough fan base, even convincing losses to the king of the division can occur without significantly affecting the bottom line. Hell, Conor has gone 2-6 in PPVs the last six years, and he's sold 15m ppv buys.  

Matchroom just signed to what is essentially a lifetime deal, and I can't believe Hearn didn't for a second consider the possibility that AJ might lose this fight, so obviously they've run their numbers and they believe that they've built it, and win or lose, the congregants of the Gospel according to AJ will come.

The mega paydays are probably proviso on having a portion of the heavyweight title. You can’t imagine Matchroom paying Joshua £50m for non title fights.

There's four titles. It would be pretty strange to think he won't be fighting in title fights or title eliminators every second fight for the foreseeable future if he so chooses, so if the argument is stakes, there won't be a shortage of those moving forward. It won't be £50m, but he's hardly going to be fighting for dinner moving forward. It's really just a question of:

- Does he think he can beat this guy
- Does he really wanna want to go through another night/couple nights not being able to see out of his one eye when there is nothing left to achieve for him as a fighter.

3 of the 4 titles are unified. So unless Joshua beats Usyk, he fights elimination bouts to get a third go at Usyk? Pretty much pointless.
The only alternative would be to fight the likes of Whyte and Haye. Matchroom loves a domestic rivalry.
I don’t see Fury vs Joshua ever happening.

Joshua and Hearn have maintained for a while now that the ultimate goal - more important than any particular fight - is the undisputed title, however it comes. Even if he loses a rematch to Usyk he'd still be in the picture, albeit possibly damaged goods. If he took the rematch and lost he'd have to pray to God that Usyk doesn't emerge from that potential Fury-Usyk-Wilder triangle with all the marbles though, because the demand for Usyk to accomodate him again would be pretty minimal in those circumstances.

I'm sure he'd love to avenge Saturday's loss, recover the WBA, IBF & WBO belts from Usyk and then go after the winner of Wilder-Fury III to sew up all the titles. From a legacy point of view, that would be the dream route from here if he pulled it off, especially if it was against Fury. But thinking more realistically and pragmatically, he might be better advised treading water for a bit, dusting off the likes of Whyte again or another couple of contenders and hopefully letting that prospective triangle of Fury, Usyk and Wilder sort itself out. Ideally one of those three would emerge within the next twelve months holding all the belts and Joshua could have a go at winning them all in one fight. If, somehow, it was Usyk who emerged with four belts then I don't think there'd be much demand for him to face Joshua for a third time, which is why a rematch in early 2022 is a risk.

But I think Fury emerging from that group with all the belts is the most likely scenario, if politics allow it. As long as Joshua's form doesn't go absolutely to pot in the next year or so, that fight will always be there albeit never as big as it could have been. Two Brits, similar ages, natural rivals with a bit of bad blood and we've been wanting it for a while. As long as Joshua is still relevant there would be pressure on Fury to face him, just as there was pressure on Mayweather to face Pacquiao even after Manny picked up that dodgy 'L' against Bradley and then got flattened by Marquez. Too much hype has been generated for this fight before its even happened for it to just go away because Joshua has had a setback.

No idea what happens if Wilder surprises us all by beating Fury, mind you.

Jeff Navarro wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Jeff Navarro wrote:

kingraf wrote:

catchweight wrote:Im not sure Joshua at any point of his career categorically would beat Usyk. As a heavy hitter he would of course always be live and in with a shout.

Letting his hands go - probably results in him getting himself knocked out. He let his hands go against a smaller, quicker puncher in Ruiz and lost the firefight. Difficult to do against a technically better boxer like Usyk who is beating him with better movement and sharper punching.

I think he was struggling and was looking to find that one big shot that would turn the fight around for him. He found it in other fights like Povetkin and Klitschko where he was similarly struggling with technically sound boxers. He wasnt able to find against Usyk. Probably towards the end he should have taken more chances but this was fight that Usyk won, rather than Joshua lost.

Theres usually an inquisition of sorts when a high profile boxer loses in an upset but in this case the overwhelming feeling I got was he just lost to a better boxer. Joshua was pre-ordained as an oustanding heavyweight champion in waiting that hasnt really measured up boxing wise but has generated vast sums of money. The result is when he loses though there is a tendancy to feel that if hes not going to become this allt ime great heavyweight that Sky promised us then he may as well pack it in. I wouldnt consign him to the scrap heap. He would start as favorite against most opponents in the division ad one be a live underdog in the rest. Theres lots of good fights out there for him but it may require the general public letting go of the Sky narrative that we are witnessing the career of a legendary heavyweight unfolding before us.

He got £50m for this, supposedly and I think in all likelihood the days of him getting £50m for a fight are probably over, but I think Conor McGregor has shown that once a fighter has a rabid enough fan base, even convincing losses to the king of the division can occur without significantly affecting the bottom line. Hell, Conor has gone 2-6 in PPVs the last six years, and he's sold 15m ppv buys.  

Matchroom just signed to what is essentially a lifetime deal, and I can't believe Hearn didn't for a second consider the possibility that AJ might lose this fight, so obviously they've run their numbers and they believe that they've built it, and win or lose, the congregants of the Gospel according to AJ will come.

The mega paydays are probably proviso on having a portion of the heavyweight title. You can’t imagine Matchroom paying Joshua £50m for non title fights.

There's four titles. It would be pretty strange to think he won't be fighting in title fights or title eliminators every second fight for the foreseeable future if he so chooses, so if the argument is stakes, there won't be a shortage of those moving forward. It won't be £50m, but he's hardly going to be fighting for dinner moving forward. It's really just a question of:

- Does he think he can beat this guy
- Does he really wanna want to go through another night/couple nights not being able to see out of his one eye when there is nothing left to achieve for him as a fighter.

3 of the 4 titles are unified. So unless Joshua beats Usyk, he fights elimination bouts to get a third go at Usyk? Pretty much pointless.
The only alternative would be to fight the likes of Whyte and Haye. Matchroom loves a domestic rivalry.
I don’t see Fury vs Joshua ever happening.

Usyk said he'd retire once he became undisputed. So there's a very real chance he's two fights away from calling it a day. And from there on, there are four belts to go after, or the person who stops Usyk from becoming undisputed. Either way, there's a clear path to title fights within 12-18 months that don't go through Usyk

Personally I think that it would be refreshing if Usyk made good on his promise and retired as undisputed champion.
Makes me think,too,how Lennox Lewis was not given enough credit for unifying the belts which he did painstakingly!
More thoughts on Joshua.When he surfaced to go on the record, post defeat,his first remark was,"Great chess match." What planet is he on? He then described himself as a "boxer/puncher", as if to imply that he is in the same league as Usyk as a boxer.
He spouted the same NLP self help crud about not feeling sorry for himself,upwards and onwards, ad nauseum.
Whereas his reaction to Ruiz 1 seemed gracious, he sounds like a broken record now.And unbelievable that it was trotted out that he is 'a work in progress' ,as a little loss here and there won't stop the cash-cow for everyone.
I know it can't be just myself who finds this pathetically risible.He has been 'bigged up' as the next  Mike Tyson who will earn a billion dollars.And he may even earn that with his sponsorship deals, but let's face it, Joshua always was a heavy handed mechanical European style heavy with no Plan B. I wouldn't even use the Frank Bruno comparison as a pejorative because Frank would have fought every inch in a championship fight and not meekly peter out as Joshua did.
Who told him that he could take Usyk on at his own game; If  it was McCracken, and I think its certain to be, judging by the lack of urgency in the corner down the home strait, then he should go.Otherwise he has no chance in the re-match.Cheers

Tbh all the talk fighting the wrong fight is correct. But Usyk’s fitness at 221lbs surprised me. Considering many years ago he started off welterweight/light middleweight.
I definitely assumed the extra weight would fatigue the Ukrainian but he carried the weight magnificently.

My previous comments of the fight were based on listening to the fight live from a commentator and then listening to the post fight interviews of the fighters and others in attendance. However Sky Sports yesterday evening posted the whole fight onto Youtube and so I could see the whole fight.  So now I have a somewhat different and more detailed impression of the fight.  

Firstly AJ's right eye began to swell during the 10th round but at no time did it close - so I don't understand AJ's claim that he couldn't see out of his right eye from the 9th round onward.  Maybe his right eye became blurry but the swelling never caused his eye to shut.  

Secondly AJ looked gone in the last 30 seconds of the 12th round.  When the bell sounded he then looked exhausted and seemed to be grimacing in pain.  He seemed to be in a lot of pain which might have been mixed with exhaustion.

Thirdly I scored it 116-112 in Usyks favour but I note one judge had it 117-112 which means he must have scored one round even at 10-10 (I didn't realize that was allowed).

Fourthly the early rounds were low intensity although I had Usyk winning them (edging 1, 2 & 4 & convincingly winning 3) - but the most significant rounds were the latter rounds - especially the 10th when both fighters became visibly marked (AJ's eye began to swell, some blood from his right nostril; Usyk blood from a cut above his right eye) - which I had Usyk edging.  

Fifthly, on reflection Usyk looked to be in control of the tempo of the fight, when AJ seemed to have a measure of control it was Usyk stepping back and taking a breather.  

Six: Usyk threw in combinations and this was more eye catching than Joshua's single punches which were likely more powerful.  

Seven: I never saw AJ throw an upper-cut his most potent shot in my opinion.

Eight: This looked to be how AJ normally fights - I didn't see a lower performance level from him - he looked good.  The difference was the fight never opened up for him and Usyk never made any obvious mistakes.  Usyk controlled the distance and the tempo throughout the fight.  When Usyk needed a breather he just dropped back and AJ couldn't get very close to him to land any significant shot although it looked like AJ was controlling the distance with his jab.  When Usyk had the energy and had sized AJ up (after four rounds) he stepped into the pocket and landed on AJ while his movement side to side back and forth, up and down prevented AJ from throwing the upper cut.

Derek Smalls wrote:.He has been 'bigged up' as the next  Mike Tyson who will earn a billion dollars.And he may even earn that with his sponsorship deals, but let's face it, Joshua always was a heavy handed mechanical European style heavy with no Plan B.

It really is strange that the Next Mike Tyson to earn a boatload of money boxing was a heavy handed heavy with no plan B who came unstuck any time he met some resistance. Guess history really does repeat itself.

Is it just me or is Joshua's jab very poor. I don't recall him doing anything with it other than paw with it and use it as a range fighter to set up his great right hand. He has no authority with that shot. Also lost to Ruiz by not being able to keep a shorter opponent off. I think he's a one handed fighter from what I've seen of him.

There's some truth in that, Mochyn du. There's often an underlying assumption with a tall, upright fighter like Joshua that they'll have a world class jab but that's not really the case for him. In a lot of fights that hasn't proved too much of a problem because he can trade off his power and making opponents fight timidly. Against guys with the attributes to offset that we've seen that it's more of a problem, albeit one that he's still managed to overcome on occasions.

In terms of being one-handed...Well yeah I'm struggling to think of anyone he's dropped outright with his left, or any fight where a big left has precipitated the ending. He uses it well enough when he's pushing for a finish because he is an adept finisher of a hurt opponent for the most part but as you say there doesn't seem to be heaps of power in that left hand.

Mind you, plenty of world-class fighters have been a little bit one-handed to some extent. Wilder's reliance on his right hand is well known. But at least with Joshua's right he can hook it, and he also has a superb right uppercut. Whereas Wilder basically always needs to look for that straight right.

Might be an interesting topic to discuss one day, fighters who were one-handed to the extreme. Someone like De La Hoya for example. Great left jab and hook, but his right hand was abysmal for a fighter of such quality and reputation. Almost nothing on it.

We know there is going to be a rematch. Is there anything in AJ's current skill set and amoury that can be used to turn this around for AJ?  

Against Ruiz it seemed clear what AJ had to do - and he did it - aided by Ruiz's poor preparation.  

In this rematch it seems less obvious.  If AJ started like a "Chisora" with aggression and forcing the pace - he will tire out fairy quickly if he doesn't get to Usyk and stop him and what happened in the last 30 seconds of round 12 will happen a lot earlier.  

It seems to me AJ has to better read Usyk in the ring and so time him better when Usyk moves forward into the pocket.  Someone translated some of the things mentioned in Usyk's corner - apparently Usyk was saying AJ was missing with most of his shots.  Elsewhere it has been claimed that Usyk in an interview for Ukranian media said when AJ's punches landed he went  to space but then returned - saying he had never in his life been hit so hard.

Usyk is being toted as a pound for pound fighter. What characterizes a pound for pound fighter that is able to ascend the weight classes like a Roy Jones, a Mayweather, an Alvarez? Surely it is their ability to read their opponents, evade their punches while countering with their own. So ring-craft and movement come to the fore.

Watch the 2nd Holmes v Spinks fight...Holmes came flying out at him and won the first 4 rounds and staggered Spinks in the 2nd..

First fight was similar to Aj v Usyk...

Holmes won 9 rounds in the rematch and got shafted.

Great Boxers need room to box...Look at Hagler v Hearns....

AJ has power...strength...durability on his side...If Holmes could stop Spinks boxing and build up a fight winning lead...

Mochyn du wrote:Is it just me or is Joshua's jab very poor.  I don't recall him doing anything with it other than paw with it and use it as a range fighter to set up his great right hand.  He has no authority with that shot.  Also lost to Ruiz by not being able to keep a shorter opponent off.  I think he's a one handed fighter from what I've seen of him.

It has been mentioned elsewhere that AJ's left jab was being used as a rangefinder for AJ's right hand.  Hence it acted as a telegraph sign to Usyk that AJ was wanting to bring in the right.   AJ was pushing out his left jab, and it lacked the snap needed to turn it into an instrument of offence and distance control. So basically you are not alone in your assessment.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Watch the 2nd Holmes v Spinks fight...Holmes came flying out at him and won the first 4 rounds and staggered Spinks in the 2nd..

First fight was similar to Aj v Usyk...

Holmes won 9 rounds in the rematch and got shafted.

Great Boxers need room to box...Look at Hagler v Hearns....

AJ has power...strength...durability on his side...If Holmes could stop Spinks boxing and build up a fight winning lead...

Two takes on the fight and possible rematch which I have found quite interesting have been those of Matt Macklin and Barry Jones. Both have touched on the issues you've alluded to there, Truss, with slightly differing opinions on how feasible that kind of gameplan is for Joshua in a return bout (I thought Jones' analysis was particularly good for anyone who hasn't seen it).

Macklin said that Joshua needs to take a huge gamble in the rematch and basically accept that it's not going beyond five or six rounds, come hell or high water, because he probably can't win a longer fight and he almost definitely can't outscore Usyk. Just jump on Usyk from the first bell, make it as ugly and rough as he can, try to walk through whatever Usyk throws at him and grab him, maul him, lean on him, try to push him around and club him with every big power shot he possibly can. No letting up, similar to what Fury did to Cunningham back in the day. Obviously the huge gamble is that if Joshua hasn't stopped Usyk in those first few rounds, he's almost certainly getting stopped himself around the mid-way stage. Joshua has always had to conserve his energy and work in spurts over longer fights and we've seen repeatedly how Usyk dissects an opponent once the pace drops, and how his stamina holds up across twelve. If Joshua tries that strategy and it hasn't worked by rounds five or six he'll probably be a sitting duck.

Joshua isn't outright chinny but at the same time he's not iron in that department and I'm not sure he'd trust his chin enough to go all-out caveman style like that. It's never really been his way and if he jumps straight into the rematch with the same coaching team it's asking a lot for him to essentially change his style altogether in one training camp.

But Jones raised another interesting point - can Joshua fight like the 'bigger man' so to speak, even if he wanted to? He talked about how, even though there weren't many clinches or fighting right inside the pocket, Joshua didn't really look any stronger than Usyk when they did clinch or rest on each other. If anything, it was Usyk who looked like he could shrug Joshua off and make room for shots in close. It reminded me of what Dave Allen, himself not a particularly big Heavyweight, has apparently said about Joshua - basically that he's 'big but hollow'. Allen talked about how in sparring he really felt the weight and strength difference when he's been in there with guys like Joyce and Dubois, but that when he was in there with Joshua he didn't feel he was all that strong at all, and that he had no problems moving him about in the clinches. Both he and Jones have questioned if Joshua's bulging physique maybe gives a false impression of that natural man-strength and if he's really that well equipped to make his weight and size count when his boxing can't get the job done.

Valid points for sure but Holmes spent his career disarming matadors rather than playing one...Shavers...Norton...Cooney..Snipes all fought on the outside as well as Berbick...Cobb..Smith...Bey etc..

Sure Joshua might not be comfortable rushing Usyk but I don't see too many other options... Fury pretty much rushed Wilder in the 2nd fight and he is a counter puncher by trade..

Usyk can't fight 3 hard minutes a round at Heavy..not at 220...Joshua has to make him fight at an unsuitable pace. .All fighters however great make mistakes under pressure..

As I speculated a few weeks ago, Usyk has confirmed that he "lullabied" AJ by holding back on his tune up fights at Heavy.
I think poor old Anthony is not as wily as he likes to think he is, and probably thought, Well, Bellew outboard him for 6 rounds, I will make a statement about being a  boxer and not just a clubber.
Really think he's yesterday's news and only surprised that he extended his record as long as he did without his limitations being so badly exposed

Looking like Anthony Joshua maybe teaming up with Ronnie Shields.
Suggestions he wanted to be trained by Eddy Reynoso but was rebuffed as Andy Ruiz Jr trains out of the gym.

Yeah, there's been talking of Virgil Hunter as well Jeff, but Shields seem to be the one gathering the most momentum. In fact Shields has been giving interviews about his meetings with and plans for Joshua, so he's taking a risk of making himself look foolish if they don't end up getting together now.

Not sure about Shields myself. Hugely experienced and has worked with a slew of big names, but aside from Forrest when he beat Mosley twice I'm struggling to think of any of them who found their best form or had their defining wins directly under him (albeit he's been part of many successful teams and camps). Doesn't seem to have a set style or way of working....Could be a sign of adaptability or could be a sign of him being a bit of a jack of all trades depending on what you like.

Anyway I listed to an interview with Shields in which he discussed his early meetings with Joshua. Key bits to pick out from it:

* It appears it was Eddie Hearn who made the first move in contacting Shields.

* Shields said he was surprised that a two-time Heavyweight champion didn't know or understand certain things which he felt should be a given at this stage of Joshua's career (fuel to the fire for those who have been sticking it to McCracken recently).

* He said he wants to get Joshua fighting like a bully in a Usyk rematch. Went on to say that Joshua genuinely felt he could outbox Usyk first time out, but wants to make it a rough, brutal affair next time out. Paraphrasing, apparently Joshua told him, "I'm going to be a dog in the rematch, I just need you to make me the best dog I can be."

* They didn't discuss Tyson Fury or a Fury fight at all, only Usyk.

* Joshua travelled to meet Shields with Angel Fernandez, and apparently said Fernandez is the only member of his previous team which he wants to keep in his corner or camp from now on. So whoever Joshua ends up going with, it does appear to be the end of the road for McCracken.

Can AJ be a dog though? Even when he was 22-0 with 21 KOs he was a pretty methodical machine. Tony Bellew reckons AJ has more God given talent for boxing than anyone he ever met, and I guess any time you've got a 6'5 250lbs behemoth with an 11.5s 100m in the rain, you've got a really really gifted athlete, so the idea is that he's got the physical tools to just seek and destroy. My mind tells me Usyk catches him coming in with a straight left and then it's three rounds of various chicken dances before he's knocked out though.

88Chris05 wrote:.... Shields has been giving interviews about his meetings with and plans for Joshua .....

* He said he wants to get Joshua fighting like a bully in a Usyk rematch. Went on to say that Joshua genuinely felt he could outbox Usyk first time out, but wants to make it a rough, brutal affair next time out. Paraphrasing, apparently Joshua told him, "I'm going to be a dog in the rematch, I just need you to make me the best dog I can be."

Is that a common expression in boxing - being a dog?  I heard Sugar Hill saying it after the Fury-Wilder III fight.  I am wondering whether Joshua stole Sugar Hill's line or whether he said it independently of him.

It's a bit of a recent phenomenon, Bertie. At least when it comes to using 'dog' in a complimentary sense.

Traditionally a fighter being described as a dog was an insult - a suggestion that, like a mutt, their will was easily broken. You'd hear fighters and pundits alike describing particularly brave and durable fighters as having 'no dog in them', meanwhile Duran 'quitting like a dog' against Leonard (that's for you, Truss) was a common line. Or a fighter boxing on the back foot and not taking unnecessary risks might be accused of 'dogging it' by their opponent (think Jose Luis Ramirez may have flung this accusation at Julio Cesar Chavez after their fight, but if not that one you'll be able to find other examples from that era and earlier ones).

One would think more pressure from AJ and he can win the rematch..

Problem is like someone wrote above I think he is rich and comfortable and has turned a bit gun shy..

No need for him to be gun shy against Usyk's power but deep down he might be scared to lose what he has..

The presenter on Talk Sport said he thinks AJ is a flat track bully and there may be some truth in that.

Can't think a novice Whyte and a 42 year old Wlad (who was beating him) apart he has beaten any top fighter.. Certainly Povetkin was past it.

In the 12th AJ looked ready to be knocked down - only the rope stopped him from falling, that & Usyk taking his foot off the gas at the last moment, and then the bell.  So Usyk did sort of carry power to trouble AJ but it was cumulative and it exhausted AJ.  

Some people in the business said AJ needed to bite down on his gum shield and have some periods of just swinging it - take some punishment to land some punishment.  With AJ being the bigger man those types of forays should have come out in his favour.