Cardiff's Re-rebrand

As the last thread got locked, maybe this is the place to note how well the re-rebrand is going.

Season ticket sales up 35%, corporate backing up, the traditional jersey sold out within days of launching.

The Foundation continuing to do sterling work through the development pathway, the Age Grade & Academy working throughout the pathway and even moving into u14 coaching in partnership with Rhondda Schools Rugby.

Next season will see a quartered jersey, too. And, with a wee bit of luck, the return of the club badge to the First Team and the Rags known formally as Cardiff Athletic.

Here's an example of the work within the pathway community:

https://twitter.com/RFCMerthyr/status/1443497994574254080?s=20

Superb partnerships in place with so many clubs in the pathway to deliver these projects.

Comments from the other thread can now be seen in context:

"Well, there's the region experiment coming to an end.. " -> Untrue, plus it's not an experiment
"The whole regional set-up is a joke. Most of the country is not represented" -> Untrue. Each club and school in the country is represented by a region
"I also think that Ponty has alot to answer in the perceived failure of the Regions. They have made no effort to try and work with Cardiff Blues for a long enough time" -> Completely untrue as they've had free players for years & have two interns this year
"The reason why Warriors disbanded was all down to Leyton Samuel, and it was because Pontypridd RFC would not sell Sardis Rd to him" -> Untrue as Pontypridd RFC have never owned Sardis Road.
"Please look at the Cardiff Blues academy, and see where their players come from. There are not many coming from clubs in Cardiff. they are coming from the clubs in the valleys and in particular, Pontypridd, Merthyr and a lot from places like Church Village and Beddau" -> this is particularly untrue as players come from the schools. And I think the recent intake was more from the South Pathway than the North.
"Well Cardiff do not want anything to do with anybody except Cardiff." -> Completely untrue, of course
"It is not Cardiff's fault that half of the Warriors was landed on them" -> Untrue. They paid £312,500 for it
"out of a squad of 30 players, 21 of them are from Merthyr and Pontypridd" -> Untrue
"Cardiff want to reap the valleys of their talent, but do not want to associate with them" -> Untrue

I've stopped at this stage because, of course, the evidence all shows the above claims to have been untrue, the evidence shows the superb work done across the pathway by the Foundation and Age Grade & Academy the evidence proves the clubs are on board.

Hell, even a Director of Ponty Rugby Ltd went on the record in public to support the re-rebrand.

So, in summary, it's been hugely successful and those who knocked it (because of untruths) have been proven totally wrong.

https://www.cardiffrugby.wales/news/cardiff-rugby-skill-centre-programme-launched-for-aspiring-under-14-year-group

Here's more information on the programme for under-14 players who attend schools in the Rhondda catchment area

"Region 'experiment' still going" (tick) (although not an experiment)
"Do not want anything to do with anybody except Cardiff" (clear bullpwp)
"Cardiff...do not want to associate with [the Valleys]" (clear and obvious bullpwp)

Proof of the pudding etc.

PhilBB wrote:"Please look at the Cardiff Blues academy, and see where their players come from. There are not many coming from clubs in Cardiff. they are coming from the clubs in the valleys and in particular, Pontypridd, Merthyr and a lot from places like Church Village and Beddau" -> this is particularly untrue as players come from the schools. And I think the recent intake was more from the South Pathway than the North.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Go and look at the academy and see where the bulk of the kids are from.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:"Please look at the Cardiff Blues academy, and see where their players come from. There are not many coming from clubs in Cardiff. they are coming from the clubs in the valleys and in particular, Pontypridd, Merthyr and a lot from places like Church Village and Beddau" -> this is particularly untrue as players come from the schools. And I think the recent intake was more from the South Pathway than the North.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Go and look at the academy and see where the bulk of the kids are from.

It's not wrong to note the entrants are via schools as that's the pathway to the u14. They don't come from "Pontypridd, Merthyr" etc. They'll come from schools. So I think you should recognise this fact.

Then we move on to: https://www.cardiffrugby.wales/transition-squad

There are 14 players in the list.

Beetham - Brecon, Bradly - Exiles, Burnell - Llantwit Fadre (father played for the club), Daniel - Rhondda, Evans - Cardiff, Hennessy-Booth - Cardiff, Hill - Rhondda (Grandfather played for the club), James - unknown, Lloyd - Ystrad Rhondda, Lloyd - Cardiff, Mann - unsure, Thomas - unsure, Cabango - Cardiff

So that's four Cardiff certs, two players with relatives who played for the club, one Brecon

However, "they are not coming from clubs in Cardiff" is certainly true as the players come from Schools and Cardiff Schools are having players selected for the Academy

https://twitter.com/CRugbyCommunity/status/1443592625966227456?s=20

Up in Brecon, at the top of the regional pathway.

I am not debating the regional pathway.

But there is little point debating this with you, you will just have to talk with yourself, as it's just pointless. I've learned this a long time ago.

But I think it is safe to say that all levels of the Cardiff academy would severely struggle without the contribution from the valleys. You know, and I know most of the Cardiff set-up are massively padded out with players from north of Radyr. That you cannot deny.

LordDowlais wrote:I am not debating the regional pathway.

But there is little point debating this with you, you will just have to talk with yourself, as it's just pointless. I've learned this a long time ago.

But I think it is safe to say that all levels of the Cardiff academy would severely struggle without the contribution from the valleys. You know, and I know most of the Cardiff set-up are massively padded out with players from north of Radyr. That you cannot deny.

I'm not denying that at all. I agree with you fully.

£312,500 well spent.

From the outside Cardiff seem to look more professional and Dai coming back I think helps with that.  On the field there hasn't been much between Pro12 and Prem clubs off it has seen a big difference.

Bringing CVC into the league along with Roc Nation the off field stuff seems to be getting sorted out, be it Cardiff re-branding or Edinburgh sorting their stadium.  Covid I think has sped up somethings also.  I think the URC rebranding has been great too.

As you showed with where the players are from Cardifff people don't just live in Cardiff but have moved out to the surrounding areas but many of the families consider themselves still from there.

Can't argue with the financial returns they are seeing and is a good sign for things to come.  Bit of success on the field and they can become a big force.

Brendan wrote:
As you showed with where the players are from Cardifff people don't just live in Cardiff but have moved out to the surrounding areas but many of the families consider themselves still from there.

Just to expand on this, it's been the case since the late 19th century. It's not new.

I am sure ye saw this already

https://community.wru.wales/2021/09/08/welsh-schools-colleges-league-returns/

We’re working very closely with Gruff Rees at the Cardiff Rugby Academy and 35 per cent of their players are from Cymoedd.

“While that is great for us, it is also a reflection on the work being done by the Rhondda, Pontypridd and Cynon Valey Schools at the younger age levels

Seems like the Region are using the different structures and pathways from all over the Region to get the best layers coming through.

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
As you showed with where the players are from Cardifff people don't just live in Cardiff but have moved out to the surrounding areas but many of the families consider themselves still from there.

Just to expand on this, it's been the case since the late 19th century. It's not new.

Same in Ireland with Dublin.  Half of Leinster show their Dublin support when Dublin do well and their county is doing bad in sport.  Even in the Rugby up until Leinster won their first Champions Cup all the Munster people in Leinster were Munster fans.  Now the majority are Leinster fans.

I think Cardiff were smart to focus on the City as it's one of their best selling things.  One of the complaints in SR was the NZ and Oz teams were made up names that bared no connection to the area and that the Blues and Reds were the worse where as the higlanders was the Region were most Scots settled in NZ.  SA like Irland didn't have those issues because they didn't create new regions other than the Cats which failed.

I know Llanelli were always the Scarlets and Dragons goes with being Welsh.  Not sure if it is to do with Conservation but Osprey documentaries always seem to be in Wales.  But blues could have been anywhere (though I know Cardiff FC are the Bluebids so Cardiff and Blue go together).

Brendan wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
As you showed with where the players are from Cardifff people don't just live in Cardiff but have moved out to the surrounding areas but many of the families consider themselves still from there.

Just to expand on this, it's been the case since the late 19th century. It's not new.

Same in Ireland with Dublin.  Half of Leinster show their Dublin support when Dublin do well and their county is doing bad in sport.  Even in the Rugby up until Leinster won their first Champions Cup all the Munster people in Leinster were Munster fans.  Now the majority are Leinster fans.

I think Cardiff were smart to focus on the City as it's one of their best selling things.  One of the complaints in SR was the NZ and Oz teams were made up names that bared no connection to the area and that the Blues and Reds were the worse where as the higlanders was the Region were most Scots settled in NZ.  SA like Irland didn't have those issues because they didn't create new regions other than the Cats which failed.

I know Llanelli were always the Scarlets and Dragons goes with being Welsh.  Not sure if it is to do with Conservation but Osprey documentaries always seem to be in Wales.  But blues could have been anywhere (though I know Cardiff FC are the Bluebids so Cardiff and Blue go together).

You're right, but to add to it:

1. The Japanese league has just seen rebranding to ensure City names are included in the team names
2. The Ospreys are so called as that was the bird on the badge of Swansea RFC

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:
As you showed with where the players are from Cardifff people don't just live in Cardiff but have moved out to the surrounding areas but many of the families consider themselves still from there.

Just to expand on this, it's been the case since the late 19th century. It's not new.

Same in Ireland with Dublin.  Half of Leinster show their Dublin support when Dublin do well and their county is doing bad in sport.  Even in the Rugby up until Leinster won their first Champions Cup all the Munster people in Leinster were Munster fans.  Now the majority are Leinster fans.

I think Cardiff were smart to focus on the City as it's one of their best selling things.  One of the complaints in SR was the NZ and Oz teams were made up names that bared no connection to the area and that the Blues and Reds were the worse where as the higlanders was the Region were most Scots settled in NZ.  SA like Irland didn't have those issues because they didn't create new regions other than the Cats which failed.

I know Llanelli were always the Scarlets and Dragons goes with being Welsh.  Not sure if it is to do with Conservation but Osprey documentaries always seem to be in Wales.  But blues could have been anywhere (though I know Cardiff FC are the Bluebids so Cardiff and Blue go together).

You're right, but to add to it:

1. The Japanese league has just seen rebranding to ensure City names are included in the team names
2. The Ospreys are so called as that was the bird on the badge of Swansea RFC

Didn't know that about the Ospreys makes sense.

The Japanese Branding in the initial stages has not gone well at all.

Of the existing 25 teams that were the top to divisions one has walked away from Rugby while no new team has been created in the parts of Japan that where missing.

All the teams around Tokyo put it in their name so not regional like was hoped.

They have the Top Division the same size either the bottom division cut into two more divisions thus making Division 3 way less commercially viable.  The winners of the old Div 2 ended up in Div 3 so lots of complaints and suspicions over who was assigned where.  Add in that apart from the 3-4 stars in a team the rest are on pennies and would struggle to match the wages of most European teams.  Again the re-brand promised so much but seems to be nothing more that the Union overseeing the league run by the companies.

A strong team to take on the Budgies in a Gale tomorrow evening. Josh Adams returning is a boost.

It's a bit strange that Sam Moore, at least, isn't playing for the Rags tomorrow, however.

Two pretty strong teams. Good that Priestland is available, given the relative uncertainty.

PhilBB wrote:Next season will see a quartered jersey, too. And, with a wee bit of luck, the return of the club badge to the First Team and the Rags known formally as Cardiff Athletic.

Where did you hear about the quartered jersey? I've been hoping for this for ages!

GlassDu wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Next season will see a quartered jersey, too. And, with a wee bit of luck, the return of the club badge to the First Team and the Rags known formally as Cardiff Athletic.

Where did you hear about the quartered jersey? I've been hoping for this for ages!

You'll see!

https://twitter.com/IoanRhysEvans/status/1443898414194962435?s=20

Great to see these pathway clubs in the u12s cup, and u13s from Builth Wells to Barry.

"Cardiff want to reap the valleys of their talent, but do not want to associate with them" -> Untrue"Well "Cardiff do not want anything to do with anybody except Cardiff." -> Completely untrue, of course

I wonder if a couple of posters need to hold their hands up to the mistakes they've made in the past?

Just to triple underline this point, as I remember so many were confused by it when I spent a long while explaining the 80% nonsense, the players are contracted to the clubs and not to the Union:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-58791723

It's just the union pay 80% of the wage. We get it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's just the union pay 80% of the wage. We get it.

Nope. You still don't get it. But that's ok.

Everyone gets it, even you. It's a one note song.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Everyone gets it, even you. It's a one note song.

And you've been out of tune since I first explained this to you. At that time, you wouldn't accept the education you were given. Now you're just doubling down on the silliness.

Look - at Crickhowell High School https://twitter.com/CRugbyCommunity/status/1445774029114150919?s=20

Look - at Merthyr https://twitter.com/CRugbyCommunity/status/1445087912341737476?s=20


Have I missed the "I was wrong" posts by those who moaned about the re-rebrand?

Ah so my post got deleted. Lets try again.

OK, Phil this just provers that the valleys massively help out Cardiff, and without us you would be strguggling.

LordDowlais wrote:Ah so my post got deleted. Lets try again.

OK, Phil this just provers that the valleys massively help out Cardiff, and without us you would be strguggling.

I think that's an interesting "us and them" viewpoint.

In 1957 - so 64 years ago - Cardiff beat Australia and the newspaper headline (with article written by JBG Thomas) was "Wallabies outwitted by Rhondda men". Before that, Trebanog born Cliff Morgan was a Cardiff star. Let's look at Lions like Gareth Griffiths from that era or, of course, The Prince of Centres coming from Taffs Well.

So, for Cardiff fans, it's never been us and them. The best talent has always flowed to the City as history proves but, in 2004, that part of the new regional pathways was purchased for £312,500

So it's never been us and them. Just be one of us. The shame is that some fought against that natural flow of talent and it's desire to always play for Cardiff.

Let's use the words of Neil Jenkins to put this one to bed:

"As a young boy, seduced by the moment, rugby was everything to me. I saw my first game when I was six, begging my father, Roger, to take me to watch my favourite team, Cardiff, until he at last relented. Even though I lived in Llantwit Fadre, near Pontypridd, and went to school in neighbouring Beddau, Cardiff were my team and I wanted nothing more than to pull on a Blue and Black jersey."

Neil Jenkins had his first Cardiff shirt aged 11.

It's never us and them from a Cardiff angle. Cardiff have always reached out across "the Valleys", across Wales and across the World to welcome talent from wherever. The prejudice doesn't exist at CAP, but some others (sadly) have desperately tried to fabricate it. Thankfully, it's generational and that generation is now irrelevant and usurped by the latest generations not having that prejudice.

Phil, can I ask, what has any of this got to do with the valleys massively contributing to Cardiff ?

The debate was always about, whether there were enough infrastructure in the valleys to support a region/Pro team. The fact that most of the Cardiff set-up is filled up with people, and players from the valleys is testament that perhaps we can.

But carry on, take the debate in whatever direction you like, also, thankyou Cardiff RFC for giving the valleys oiks the opportunities that they are getting.

LordDowlais wrote:Phil, can I ask, what has any of this got to do with the valleys massively contributing to Cardiff ?

The debate was always about, whether there were enough infrastructure in the valleys to support a region/Pro team. The fact that most of the Cardiff set-up is filled up with people, and players from the valleys is testament that perhaps we can.

But carry on, take the debate in whatever direction you like, also, thankyou Cardiff RFC for giving the valleys oiks the opportunities that they are getting.

You're very chippy about this and I don't know why. Maybe you could explain.

To answer your question: I just proved the "Valleys" (by which I guess you mean the link from the A470 to Cardiff) has always "massively contributed to Cardiff". I even mentioned the players who have perhaps made the biggest contribution.

Your debate of "whether there were enough infrastructure in the valleys to support a region/Pro team" has been answered twice already, both ending in businesses being closed. There's no money there to support it as history shows.

So there's the combination of a lack of money plus that area's best players always wanting to play for Cardiff anyway. Both statements are demonstrably true as the evidence shows.

OK Phil, you can debate this with yourself.

I'm a little disappointed with your opinion of the valleys, even though the family that has bankrolled your club for years are from my town, in the valleys, but there you go.

We are not all living in mud huts up here and hunter gathering for our daily grind, and there are a lot of very wealthy individuals, and multinational businesses up here, but hey ho.

You can crack on with this on your own.

LordDowlais wrote:OK Phil, you can debate this with yourself.

I'm a little disappointed with your opinion of the valleys, even though the family that has bankrolled your club for years are from my town, in the valleys, but there you go.

We are not all living in mud huts up here and hunter gathering for our daily grind, and there are a lot of very wealthy individuals, and multinational businesses up here, but hey ho.

You can crack on with this on your own.

What do you think my "opinion of the valleys" is?

Your point about Peter Thomas just underlines the one I've been making which is how the talent from the A470 corridor has always flowed towards Cardiff. Peter played for the club and has the club in his heart.

I don't know why you've used ludicrous language about mud huts. I live in CF40, by the way, just to underline how silly you're being.

If you think there's enough money for a professional rugby team based north of Cardiff, could you tell me why two such businesses have already failed, why Valleys Rugby got no corporate backing of note and why nobody has stepped forward to suggest such a team? Even Stanley is happy playing billy big balls in a semi pro league.

I'm interested in your take here, but hopefully you can move on from the silly language in favour of actually engaging with the words I've written. It's an interesting debate and I'm interested in your take on it.

Whilst we wait for Lord Dowlais, Cardiff's first two European Champions Cup games are live on Free To Air TV, so that will please the entitled within Wales.

I'm out sorry Phil, I aint going down this rabbit hole with you, so please stop calling me out, this entitled person is not being hooked by you.

LordDowlais wrote:I'm out sorry Phil, I aint going down this rabbit hole with you, so please stop calling me out, this entitled person is not being hooked by you.

That's a shame. Here's your chance for a proper debate on the reasons you believe "the Valleys" (your term) can sustain a professional rugby team. I'm not sure why you think it's a rabbit hole, either. You have carte blanche to push your opinion forward and to highlight the facts and reasoning that underpin your opinion.

I've been up front with my reasoning: two closed businesses (one bust) and the business plan of Valleys Rugby being so laughable.

I'm interested in your reasoning of where such a £10m+ business could be located and how it would be paid for. It would be a shame if you choose to not put forward your case. And it would be a double shame if you continue to take false pops at me, using ludicrous language, whilst refusing to put forward your case.

LordDowlais wrote:OK Phil, you can debate this with yourself.

I'm a little disappointed with your opinion of the valleys, even though the family that has bankrolled your club for years are from my town, in the valleys, but there you go.

We are not all living in mud huts up here and hunter gathering for our daily grind, and there are a lot of very wealthy individuals, and multinational businesses up here, but hey ho.

You can crack on with this on your own.

I've been to the valleys it's not far off it in some places

On a more serious note though, I'm actually agreeing with Phil on this one, there have been two valleys teams that have both failed, I think not long after I joined 606 there was another plan floated to restart a valleys team and that never seemed to get of the ground, does the inter town/club rivalry mean that it will never work as wherever it's based the other valley towns will automatically take the hump and not support it as that seems to have been one of the major issues in the past?

I should say that I'm in favour of both a strong Cardiff team as it's good for the league and also (if it's viable) a valleys team as it would be a great addition to the league.

Irish Londoner wrote:
On a more serious note though, I'm actually agreeing with Phil on this one, there have been two valleys teams that have both failed, I think not long after I joined 606 there was another plan floated to restart a valleys team and that never seemed to get of the ground, does the inter town/club rivalry mean that it will never work as wherever it's based the other valley towns will automatically take the hump and not support it as that seems to have been one of the major issues in the past?

I should say that I'm in favour of both a strong Cardiff team as it's good for the league and also (if it's viable) a valleys team as it would be a great addition to the league.

If we really wanted to turn the screw, the Rhondda's only ever professional rugby team - Treorchy Zebras - also failed. So, technically, it's three "Valleys" teams that have failed.

The plan to restart a valleys team was "Valleys Rugby" who put forward a business plan into the public domain that was not only ludicrous (it wanted to raise something like £1m a year from individuals) but also contained spelling mistakes......

https://twitter.com/CRugbyCommunity/status/1446484028396347394?s=20

In Llantwit Fadre today, giving something back through the Community Foundation.

Hmmm.

Says one minute:

PhilBB wrote:The prejudice doesn't exist at CAP, but some others (sadly) have desperately tried to fabricate it. Thankfully, it's generational and that generation is now irrelevant and usurped by the latest generations not having that prejudice.

Yet then says:

PhilBB wrote:The traditional jersey sold out within days of launching.

Next season will see a quartered jersey, too. And, with a wee bit of luck, the return of the club badge to the First Team and the Rags known formally as Cardiff Athletic.

So, supporters wanting to live in the past is ok as long as it's Cardiff doing it. Anyone else and it's generational prejudice?

The hypocrisy from these statements is almost on a par with the condescending replies the OP has produced.

Jimmy Moz wrote:
The hypocrisy from these statements is almost on a par with the condescending replies the OP has produced.

I hadn't considered it that way, so thanks for pointing that out. For me, you've conflated unrelated issues.

As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice. Others can live in the past (i.e. this is the basis of your error) as much as they like, of course, but that 'past' still had Cardiff welcoming players from all over Wales and the world.

So that's why your view is wrong. Sorry.

Interesting that 12 of the 38 in Pivac's latest squad are Cardiff pathway graduates.

7 started in the South of the pathway
5 started in the North of the pathway

Maybe there are signs that the City and Vale are benefitting from a more equal approach.

The Rags are at Dowlais' lot on Saturday......

PhilBB wrote:As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice

Name me one club in Wales that hasn't welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876

What a bizarre comment.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

PhilBB wrote:As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice

Name me one club in Wales that hasn't welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876

What a bizarre comment.

Exactly, all have, which is why your previous post was massively wrong.

Jimmy Moz wrote:

PhilBB wrote:As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice

Name me one club in Wales that hasn't welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876

What a bizarre comment.

There was a period where players who played rugby league were barred from playing in Wales. Not unions finest moment to be honest.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

PhilBB wrote:As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice

Name me one club in Wales that hasn't welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876

What a bizarre comment.

There was a period where players who played rugby league were barred from playing in Wales. Not unions finest moment to be honest.

To be fair they weren't just banned in Wales, the same applied in England (and I think the rest of union) as well, even if they were playing at amateur level.

Of course now union welcomes players from all over the world, including RL players - if they're hoping to qualify to play internationally by residency or under the grandparents rule....

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:

PhilBB wrote:As noted, the club has welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876, hence there's no prejudice

Name me one club in Wales that hasn't welcomed players from all over Wales and the world since 1876

What a bizarre comment.

There was a period where players who played rugby league were barred from playing in Wales. Not unions finest moment to be honest.

The Olympics always used to ban professionals from competing too, until relatively recently

Next up...... RGC & Dragons

Fighting the Union, still.

Two wins over the WRU teams in a weekend is always lovely.

PhilBB wrote:https://twitter.com/CRugbyCommunity/status/1446484028396347394?s=20

In Llantwit Fadre today, giving something back through the Community Foundation.

Hmmm.

Aww my old primary school. I hated that place

Yes you're all heart down at the Arms Park

Thank you for all you do for us Vallyites or whatever it is you call us