England: Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
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England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

Sharkey06 wrote:As a Sale fan I will be watching Rodd at scrum time through my fingers - scrummaging is defintiely not his strong point.  Hopefully England can keep the game moving (in between the Boks going down 'injured' to slow the game down).  I hope the ref Andrew Brace gets control of the game and keeps it moving and doesn't let the Boks go down every 2 minutues to have a drinks break.  I susepct though he won't have the cahones to dish out a penalty or two, for their slow play and gamemanship.

I always find this type of suggestions hilarious. Because the Boks slowed down the Lions test matches they will now be judged into perpetuity as the team that slows the game down, and every two minutes I might add.

Go check how long the tests was between SA and Scotland last week - in total 90 minutes. There is a full match loaded on youtube as proof.

I really don't know Rodd's scrummaging very well.  Who do we think are the best EQ scrummagers?  Or maybe better asked, who are the best EQ set piece operators who play in the front row not already in the England squad?  Putting aside for the moment the rest of their game.  As a Saints supporter I am grudgingly getting used to a middling scrum, so thought there must decent ones out there.......

doctor_grey wrote:I really don't know Rodd's scrummaging very well.  Who do we think are the best EQ scrummagers?  Or maybe better asked, who are the best EQ set piece operators who play in the front row not already in the England squad?  Putting aside for the moment the rest of their game.  As a Saints supporter I am grudgingly getting used to a middling scrum, so thought there must decent ones out there.......

Tom West from Wasps was called up last 6Ns & would have featured in the summer tests barring injury,
Hes had knee surgery in the summer. More than a decent LH.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I really don't know Rodd's scrummaging very well.  Who do we think are the best EQ scrummagers?  Or maybe better asked, who are the best EQ set piece operators who play in the front row not already in the England squad?  Putting aside for the moment the rest of their game.  As a Saints supporter I am grudgingly getting used to a middling scrum, so thought there must decent ones out there.......

Tom West from Wasps was called up last 6Ns & would have featured in the summer tests barring injury,
Hes had knee surgery in the summer. More than a decent LH.

Agreed, I think Tom West has the opposite problem to Rodd (when he's back fit again). Rodd needs to build his strength at scrum time and West needs to show more involvement round the field. Rodd is young enough that the increase in strength could come naturally over the next couple of years. West's injury lay off could give him a good chance to build up his cardio fitness to get him round the park a bit more.

I think we are genuinely a bit unlucky at the minute we have Genge, Mako, West and Obano temporarily unavailable. Marler just coming back in. We do have looseheads. There's three to watch who are developing nicely and might feature post world cup in Baxter (Quins), Whitcombe (Tigers) and Brantingham (Falcons). We just need some luck with injuries and Covid tests really.

It is interesting that clubs in the Prem, even those with big packs, are moving away from set piece dominance and to more mobile props and packs. Even Tigers the traditional home of a front row who gauged their performance solely on the number of penalties won at scrum time.

So who would you English lads like to see as the centre pairing? Curious to see what the fans would like to see there

I too have worries about Rodd's scrummaging.

I think an important thing to note before the game today though is that even strong scrummagers struggle against certain opposition. As a Tigers fan I've had the pleasure of watching some fantastic scrummaging props in the pro era. Marcos Ayerza and Julian White to name two were regarded as some of the best scrummagers around. Both also got dominated at times.

It happens to all props and happens far more frequently against the toughest opposition such as the Boks who are missing Malherbe and have still named world class front rows both starting and on the bench. Even this Boks pack built to dominate at set-piece don't always do so. Recently Australia got the upper hand against this Boks pack at the scrum for instance.

A key aspect from the scrum in the RWC that I think gets overlooked is that all the Boks penalties in that match came at their own put in rather than against the head. Opposition scrums almost always come from your own mistakes giving up possession more than anything. Had England given up that much possession whilst having parity at the scrum I still think they lose that match. As things turned out the Boks used the scrums to win penalties, build kick for field position and kick points. Without the dominant scrum I think they use all that possession as a platform to apply pressure that would have led to a convincing win anyway.

Maine man wrote:So who would you English lads like to see as the centre pairing? Curious to see what the fans would like to see there

I think the consensus would have probably been Manu and and Marchant with Malins then on the wing to provide the secondary playmaker with the option of using Steward's considerable boot if required. Marchant has a better than average skill set as well so I don't think we'd have missed out with dropping Slade if we'd gone for that. We'd have just lacked a left footed kicker.

king_carlos wrote:I too have worries about Rodd's scrummaging.

I think an important thing to note before the game today though is that even strong scrummagers struggle against certain opposition. As a Tigers fan I've had the pleasure of watching some fantastic scrummaging props in the pro era. Marcos Ayerza and Julian White to name two were regarded as some of the best scrummagers around. Both also got dominated at times.

It happens to all props and happens far more frequently against the toughest opposition such as the Boks who are missing Malherbe and have still named world class front rows both starting and on the bench. Even this Boks pack built to dominate at set-piece don't always do so. Recently Australia got the upper hand against this Boks pack at the scrum for instance.

A key aspect from the scrum in the RWC that I think gets overlooked is that all the Boks penalties in that match came at their own put in rather than against the head. Opposition scrums almost always come from your own mistakes giving up possession more than anything. Had England given up that much possession whilst having parity at the scrum I still think they lose that match. As things turned out the Boks used the scrums to win penalties, build kick for field position and kick points. Without the dominant scrum I think they use all that possession as a platform to apply pressure that would have led to a convincing win anyway.

Excellent post. 

Cole gets a lot of stick based on the world cup final scrum display. Often people also complain that Marler should have started. Cole dominated Marler at club level seasons both sides of the world cup. Cole now is arguably in the form of his life following a full pre season with some oddly energetic performances by prop standards but he's not destroying looseheads like he used to.

No prop is always going to always have a good day and be on the right side of the ref. Some props just have an opponent they struggle with, was it Marconnet the French guy that always used to cause England problems?

Best thing this young English front row can do is stay as straight as possible and put everything into the first couple of scrums. Look for captain Lawes to talk with the ref and mention just how straight they are scrumming then when the Boks get the inevitable upper hand hope that you've got into his mind that the English guys are trying to push straight and the Boks are up to funny business. Lawes needs to help his front row out and get in the refs ear, Youngs will certainly be trying.

A change of tack. Lawes is in absolutely tremendous form and is the pick of our back row at the moment

lostinwales wrote:A change of tack. Lawes is in absolutely tremendous form and is the pick of our back row at the moment

One of the interesting things about Courtney Lawes is he used last season's pec injury to get in awesome shape.  He received great care and part of the recovery plan was to work the legs, core, and aerobic capability in a way whist recovering from the pec.  This is the reason he could play two or three Premiership games then step directly into a Lions jersey.  And if you remember, people thought his recovery was longer than needed or expected, and were then surprised he came back as if he never went away.  

This type of reco/rehab plan is not common is sport where short termism is deeply embedded.  In the NFL or American uni football (and other sports) this is common with half-season or off season recovery.  I have a few guys now who are gong though this now.  It is not easy on the patient.  A lot of the credit goes to the physios and the teams willing to try new techniques.

He does sod all to rucks. Carrying better than it has been. Lineout great.

As a bruising 6 South Africa should be his bread and butter though.

Been used a lot in midfield though. Can't help but feel dombrandt there would be better though

formerly known as Sam wrote:Cole gets a lot of stick based on the world cup final scrum display.

Slightly off topic...does Cole really get a lot of stick for the final? I think there's a lot of sympathy for him having a bad day, in an unfortunate set of circumstances for the team. However, Cole's value was seen as being safe pair of hands. The definition of a safe pair of hands is someone who doesn't have a bad day, especially in a big match. Sadly, that didn't happen, so it's no surprise to see England have tried to work out what other options are available.

Can't be easy as a tighthead coming on that early knowing you have to last the whole match. I don't think he gets too much stick though, not as much as Vunipola.

Nice to see Mtawarira and Flatman both in the comms/analysis team. We'll actually get some proper focus on the forwards by the looks of it.

That is by far the worst rendition of our Anthem ever

Be surprised if England get within 10 points, South Africa's forwards are going to destroy England's.

Old Man wrote:That is by far the worst rendition of our Anthem ever

Beat me to it. The singers in the middle were awful. I’ll give them the benefit if the doubt to say they couldn’t hear the music but Kolisi sang better than them

Can see this being an extremely explosive affair. One for the neutrals I think.

Come on our young lads....give it your all...show that your worthy of this team...

Took his head off there.surely a bit high.

Decent start. Pressure on now in the maul.

Yes!!!

Tuilagi injured.

Heavily strapped leg and he's holding it. And so why risk a 6 2 bench.

Yes!!!

Good start for England, Im predicting a comfortable win for them today.

Off. Stupid fecking bench.

So ...

12 Slade
13 Marchant
14 Malins

Still good...lacks a little power

What a legend Jonny May

Losing Tuilagi is a colossal blow to England's game plan.

And now May with the sort of basic error you can't afford in international rugby, let alone against the world champions.

Cough. SA scrum is on toast.

Missed the first 10 but switched on to a replay of Manu going over then off.

Shocker from May but success at the ensuing scrum!

Hopefully Marchant can go well at 13.

Missed the first 10 but switched on to a replay of Manu going over then off.

Shocker from May but success at the ensuing scrum!

Hopefully Marchant can go well at 13.

Youngs kicking hasn't started brilliantly. 1 too short, 1 too long and now out on the full. Changes good position to 5 out in front of the posts.

Simmons can always play in the backs aswell...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Simmons can always play in the backs aswell...

He'll have to.

Not a good game for Johnny May to have a rare off day....

Just get it out quick.

Yes.

Malins looks rapid doesn't he.

Malins looks rapid doesn't he.

Does anyone else think that England need to look beyond Tuilagi. He just cannot keep himself fit. England would be much more settled if they consigned him to club rugby and developed new partnerships in the centres, especially with the World Cup looming.

Vermuelen's old enough to be starting to get a bald spot but he's still an absolute tank. Got to love that.

Yes, Freddie. He might not be rapid but he is good at using his size and strength when running lines in the opposition 22.

Fantastic

Slade deciding to turn up today it seems.

Heuer27 wrote:Does anyone else think that England need to look beyond Tuilagi. He just cannot keep himself fit.  England would be much more settled if they consigned him to club rugby and developed new partnerships in the centres, especially with the World Cup looming.

His fitness is always a worry, but some of England's best performances over the past ten years have come with Tuilagi in the side. He's too good and too integral to move on from, tempting as it may be with his fitness issues.

Better kick.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins looks rapid doesn't he.

Yes he does with added playmaker ability

Soul Requiem wrote:Slade deciding to turn up today it seems.

Until DDA did that.

Sa slowxit down tactics in full flow...their lardy a$$ forwards knackered and need a breather