England: Autumn Internationals

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England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

Yes but theres a difference between Weight and power.

A player can weigh less but be far more powerful...

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

lostinwales wrote:stats say England's pack weighed in at 912kg vs Tonga and Australia weighed in at 910 vs Scotland. Not as heavy as I thought but then Hooper must be pretty light (101kg) and its the subs where Australia were huge. Tupou at 135kg and Skelton at 140.

What would we have been with Billy and Mako, that must be lightweight compared to recent times, big difference between BV and Curry and Mako and Genge.

Hill seems bigger than the 111kg (or thereabouts ) he's listed as, but if you trust the stats the only really big lump we have now is Stuart at 133kg. Sinckler, Genge and Dombrandt are listed at around 120kg and everybody else is in the 105-115kg bracket.

They are all reasonably large specimens! Technique obviously comes into it an awaful lot, On sight I'd say Vunipola is the biggest loosehead we have and he's probably bottom in terms of scrummaging! Number 8 also comes into it a lot and we must miss the other Vunipola there while we play a very part time 8. I have my fingers crossed for Dombrandt there; if we do struggle for any reason I feel he's the most adept at a retreating scrum as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes but theres a difference between Weight and power.

A player can weigh less but be far more powerful...

100% accurate. How often have we seen massive lumps rock up and offer all the power of a 14 stone back unless they fell on someone. Body dynamics has a lot to do with it and sometimes I think the slightly smaller guys work on their technique from an earlier age because they have to whereas the bigger guys get to senior level and then get find out and retrospectively go back and try to fix their technique.

[quote="formerly known as Sam"]

Poorfour wrote:
I can't see either of Genge's two head coaches telling him to sacrifice his carrying game for scrum power. Eddie has consistently picked Mako over Marler because of the difference it made to the attack. Genge was preferred to Marler at the weekend, it would have been interesting to see if that selection was consistent across all the games. Eddie wants props that can add something to the attack.

Actually, he didn't. Up until the RWC campaign, whether Marler or Mako started was pretty even, especially when you took into account Marler's periods of self-imposed exile. During the RWC he started Mako but got as close as Eddie ever gets to admitting that that was a mistake for the final.

We can't read too much into the Fiji game, because the preparation was disrupted. It's noticeable though that all the Quins were on the bench and that may have been Eddie wanting to give Smith familiar players around him (and a defensive enforcer).

You may be right. Maybe Genge's scrummaging is good enough today to play against the top international sides. We will find out over the next couple of weeks.

Big test for Genge, especially in the scrum....this is exactly what we want though, guys to put their hand up.

Personally, I'd have Mako ahead of Genge in the set piece and loose. Only thing I'd put Genge ahead is explosiveness and the ability to power past a man.

I've been disappointed up to this point in Genge, he's not replicated his excellent form for England at all in England colours that I can recall. I really thought he was going to a big force in international rugby.

Vunipola isn't better than anyone in the scrum around the England squad. Hepburn is still better than him.

FFS.

huh

Four foot snakes.

No Radwan anywhere, Tuilagi on the flipping wing.

England starting XV:

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester)
14. Manu Tuilagi (Sale)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter)
12. Owen Farrell (capt, Saracens)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester)
2. Jamie George (Saracens)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath)
8. Tom Curry (Sale)

Replacements: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Will Stuart (Bath), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Max Malins (Saracens).

6-2 split unless you think Simmonds is a 'hybrid'

God and back to a 6 2 split.

You have got to be f&*king kidding me!!!

That is the weirdest selection I have seen for a while, even by Jones' standards.

lostinwales wrote:England starting XV:

15. Freddie Steward (Leicester)
14. Manu Tuilagi (Sale)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter)
12. Owen Farrell (capt, Saracens)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester)
2. Jamie George (Saracens)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens)
5. Jonny Hill (Exeter)
6. Courtney Lawes (Northampton)
7. Sam Underhill (Bath)
8. Tom Curry (Sale)

Replacements: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Bevan Rodd (Sale), Will Stuart (Bath), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Max Malins (Saracens).

What on earth is going on with that backline?

No 8s in the starting lineup and 2 on the bench. What on earth.

Well i said previously...Eddie is experimenting this AI's...so i'm just focusing on that.

6n will be the real squad....

Apparently Radwan is injured.

Bizarre and seemingly nuts selection from Eddie

I just don't get this stupid shoe horning of players into the side. Lock at flanker, flanker at 8, centre on wing. Why a 6 2 bench after it came back to bite us when Malins was forced off early last time we tried it?

At least Smith is in from the start I suppose and hopefully Dombrandt and Quirke et plenty of game time. Wonder if Jones saw how badly Tuilagi played on the wing last time, and that was without having to worry about 50 22s.

Bizarre - seems like an experiment in trying to get all their key players on the pitch and Radwan misses out - which is just dumb.

I wonder if Radwan has a knock? Otherwise I wish we could either drop Farrell to the bench or ditch him altogether. Its not that he isn't good enough, I am concerned that he dictates too much about the team now.

Australia are going to spend all their time dropping bombs on Tuilagi. They may get burned occasionally but he can't kick, is not known for his aerial skills and I am not so sure of his top end speed although his acceleration looks to be as brutal as ever. Maybe they are back to relying on May playing both wings again and Steward to fill in the gaps.

The subs selection does kind of work if you assume Lawes goes to 2nd row in the event of injury or comes off, but also implies we finish with a Curry/Simmonds/Dombrandt back row. I guess Simmonds is the closest like for like with Underhill, with a bit less defense and a lot more offense.

We're going to see Simmonds at 12 at least.

No 7&1/2 wrote:We're going to see Simmonds at 12 at least.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Apparently Radwan is injured.

The only thing that makes sense (if so why not Malins to the wing to start?)

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Apparently Radwan is injured.

The only thing that makes sense (if so why not Malins to the wing to start?)

Or include Marchant and have a 5/3 split on the bench. All 34 players are there all week so you're not bringing anyone else in. Slade and Malins benched. Not sure about this at all now.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Four foot snakes.

Ah, recognise that quip.

Max Lahiff uses it.

Defensively, I reckon we may see Slade and Tuilagi interchange. It wouldn't surprise me to see Slade covering the backfield on kick returns, for example.

Wtf is that backline. Poor Marcus

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Poorfour wrote:
I can't see either of Genge's two head coaches telling him to sacrifice his carrying game for scrum power. Eddie has consistently picked Mako over Marler because of the difference it made to the attack. Genge was preferred to Marler at the weekend, it would have been interesting to see if that selection was consistent across all the games. Eddie wants props that can add something to the attack.

Actually, he didn't. Up until the RWC campaign, whether Marler or Mako started was pretty even, especially when you took into account Marler's periods of self-imposed exile. During the RWC he started Mako but got as close as Eddie ever gets to admitting that that was a mistake for the final.

We can't read too much into the Fiji game, because the preparation was disrupted. It's noticeable though that all the Quins were on the bench and that may have been Eddie wanting to give Smith familiar players around him (and a defensive enforcer).

You may be right. Maybe Genge's scrummaging is good enough today to play against the top international sides. We will find out over the next couple of weeks.

He considered not selecting Marler in the final an error but not in every other game including when England beat Aus and NZ. Marler is the best defensive and set piece prop England have but currently that doesn't look to be Eddie's preference as Rodd is now on the bench who is not a good scrummager but excellent around the park.

BamBam wrote:Wtf is that backline. Poor Marcus

Somewhere Ford is laughing his backside off going "there you go lad now you know the kind of carp I've had to put up with".

That squad couldn't be more Eddie if he tried. Freddie Steward is going to be working overtime in the back field.

And he has to put up with him for Leicester too. Poor guy!

Well from the Aus site:

1. Angus Bell (14 Tests)

2. Folau Fainga’a (23 Tests)

3. James Slipper (112 Tests)

4. Rory Arnold (27 Tests)

5. Izack Rodda (32 Tests)

6. Rob Leota (4 Tests)

7. Michael Hooper (c) (117 Tests)

8. Rob Valetini (16 Tests)

9. Nic White (45 Tests)

10. James O’Connor (59 Tests)

11. Tom Wright (8 Tests)

12. Hunter Paisami (13 Tests)

13. Len Ikitau (11 Tests)

14. Andrew Kellaway (11 Tests)

15. Kurtley Beale (93 Tests)

Replacements

16. Tolu Latu (19 Tests)

17. Tom Robertson (26 Tests)

18. Oliver Hoskins*

19. Will Skelton (19 Tests)

20. Pete Samu (17 Tests)

21. Tate McDermott (13 Tests)

22. Noah Lolesio (8 Tests)

23. Izaia Perese (1 Test)

*denotes uncapped


Not sure about Beale at full back as much as I doubt Tuilagi on the wing.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
He considered not selecting Marler in the final an error but not in every other game including when England beat Aus and NZ. Marler is the best defensive and set piece prop England have but currently that doesn't look to be Eddie's preference as Rodd is now on the bench who is not a good scrummager but excellent around the park.

You are aware that Marler was not selected because he's self-isolating with Covid, right?

Yeah Beale has been a terrific player over the years but he is not what he was. 2 players >100 caps, beale with 93, O' Connor with 59 and the rest much less. And that replacement prop from LI....

Oh Eddie.....at least Smith is at 10 and Quirke is in the squad. He really likes to upset us doesn't he!

And apparently Radwan is not injured....

Tuilagi on the wing wouldn't be my choice but it wasn't a disaster in New Zealand in 2014. We almost won that second Test, and probably would have, if Mike Brown had run a better supporting line when Tuilagi got that break.

While Lancaster never went there again, I'm not convinced Lancaster ever really knew how to get the best out of his wingers, so his selection choices shouldn't receive any particular reverence.

The main reason Tuilagi was tried on the wing is because we had a paucity of kicking options in the backline. George Ford made his England debut in that year's Six Nations, then missed the tour to have shoulder surgery. Barritt, Tuilagi and Burrell had no kicking game to speak of, so Lancaster was thinking about how to use Twelvetrees, while still keeping two of those three involved. Quite a few people had wondered at the time if Tuilagi might work on the wing, so it wasn't a complete shock when Lancaster tried it.

It wasn't terrible. The main reason Lancaster didn't try the experiment again, is because Tuilagi was injured, and couldn't get fit. It was during his rehab that he assaulted the police officer, which prompted Lancaster to drop him from his World Cup plans. Bear in mind, also, that the New Zealand tour was Tuilagi's comeback, after having missed virtually all that season's Test rugby. Another reason to try him on the wing was to keep him fit by reducing his collisions.

Funnily enough, there was one break in the Tonga match when Tuilagi showed a small reminder of the kind of acceleration he had which made people wonder if wing might be an option. Maybe the lost weight has given bonuses elsewhere.

Still, it seems like a poor option now, given the defensive requirements have changed.

For me Rugby Fan there are a couple of questions on Tuilagi on the wing; that example is one of them ie Tuilagi was running in treacle and Brown was jogging keeping up! Inside shoulder on plays with Smith have me nodding but space on the wing hes unlikely to be beating anyone for pace. Him dealing with the several bombs from fly half and full back are also a bit of a concern.

Well that's a rubbish selection.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
He considered not selecting Marler in the final an error but not in every other game including when England beat Aus and NZ. Marler is the best defensive and set piece prop England have but currently that doesn't look to be Eddie's preference as Rodd is now on the bench who is not a good scrummager but excellent around the park.

You are aware that Marler was not selected because he's self-isolating with Covid, right?

Yes but Eddie has specifically chosen a loosehead to replace him that is as far from Marler as pretty much possible, except for the strong beard game.

Jones has said that he wants Tuilagi roaming and playing as a 3rd centre. Expect May to be playing like he did against Argentina when Daly was sent off!

The problem with Tuilagi on the wing...is that he's our only real game breaker in the midfield

We have loads of wingers who can create things out wide...we have no centres who can. So now our only game breaking centre....is a winger!

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Yes but Eddie has specifically chosen a loosehead to replace him that is as far from Marler as pretty much possible, except for the strong beard game.

You can't win a beard game against Joe Marler. Everyone knows that.

Eddie's chosen a prop who was already in the squad. I think you are reading too much into this.

That said, I don't think there's currently another EQP loosehead who's particularly close to Marler defensively or in scrummaging terms. If he's not available, then Eddie's pretty much forced to choose a player who's quite different.

Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I know Farrell has his strengths and he's done some wonderful things for England over the years, but I don't know if we can fully, properly move on with him as first choice.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem with Tuilagi on the wing...is that he's our only real game breaker in the midfield

I don't want him on the wing. Nevertheless, it isn't unusual to have a linebreak option out there, especially if he is allowed to come inside, That's the USP for Cokanasiga.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Yes but Eddie has specifically chosen a loosehead to replace him that is as far from Marler as pretty much possible, except for the strong beard game.

You can't win a beard game against Joe Marler. Everyone knows that.

Eddie's chosen a prop who was already in the squad. I think you are reading too much into this.

That said, I don't think there's currently another EQP loosehead who's particularly close to Marler defensively or in scrummaging terms. If he's not available, then Eddie's pretty much forced to choose a player who's quite different.

Mako's defensive game is exceptional to be fair. I'd put him on par with Marler. Both make a stupendous number of tackles with most of them behind the gain line.

Marler is of course the stronger scrummager though.

I rate Rodd and am looking forward to seeing him debut.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Could be said Obano is a good scrummaging prop but obviously out injured.

I've never been consistently convinced by Obano in the tight to be honest. Seems hit or miss where he's either clearly on top or getting pinged. Absolutely munches people in the loose though.