Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

First topic message reminder :

A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-

First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

Not having possession of the ball is the bit which saved him.

Once his arm hits it he has to 'catch' it before it touches the ground according to the way the law is written?

That's if you lose the ball. No separation here means that he grounds the ball without losing it. If he'd been carrying the ball and that had happened it would have been a knock on over the goal line (and then whatever restart we're trialling this week).

I'm kinda glad that try was awarded. It was good reward to an attacking side trying to score. It felt like the initial decision drove the outcome. There was nothing clear and obvious to overturn. If the ref had said no try and we'll go and check with the TMO I don't think there a clean enough image to overturn that either. When we're down to an single video still being 50:50 it should reward the attacking side. In all fairness, the defender should have just done his job better, if he had dived head first to reach the ball he would have been first to it.

Overall quite an entertaining game. Surprised that Fiji managed to hold out with 14-13 men for so much of the match. In the end they ran out of energy. But for a lot of the game, they competed at the breakdown, competitive scrum, lineout could improve.

No 7&1/2 wrote:That's if you lose the ball. No separation here means that he grounds the ball without losing it. If he'd been carrying the ball and that had happened it would have been a knock on over the goal line (and then whatever restart we're trialling this week).

Doesn't say that in the laws - it says if ball hits arm etc in a separate part to what happens if you lose possession ....

when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

PS no issue with the try being given - just trying to get a clear view of the laws as they are written - this has happened before and I'm sure will again but decisions are inconsistent ...

Well that's the issue with directives and interpretations rarely being written down too. The separation rule has been around for the last 4 or 5 years at least. And it is judged differently if you have possession and when you're trying to ground it and you don't have possession. In this case you can ground the ball with your upper body so if the ball hasn't come away from your body at any point you are deemed not to have knocked it forward. There's much less likelihood that you'd ever get the slow mo replays and the questions in the general field of play though as they'd just call it live and move on. A try being scored/not scored focuses the mind hence the TMO (see offside for SA last week).

And yes 100% decisions are inconsistent but I think this was pretty close and understandable. I'd say the worst decision was the yellow to Wright in the England game.

Elliot Dee recalled to the Wales squad, to replace Kirby Myhill who returns to Cardiff Rugby.

I don’t overly agree with this. Firstly it’s a bit of a risk to immediately throw a player in after an injury (fair to assume he will be on the bench, after Roberts wasn’t utilised yesterday). Secondly Kirby Myhill hasn’t had much of a chance (nor Roberts particularly).

It shows that Pivac is trying to go as strong as possible, but I don’t really like it. Knowing Dragons luck, he will then miss games for us.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I'm kinda glad that try was awarded. It was good reward to an attacking side trying to score. It felt like the initial decision drove the outcome. There was nothing clear and obvious to overturn. If the ref had said no try and we'll go and check with the TMO I don't think there a clean enough image to overturn that either.  When we're down to an single video still being 50:50 it should reward the attacking side.  In all fairness, the defender should have just done his job better, if he had dived head first to reach the ball he would have been first to it.

Overall quite an entertaining game. Surprised that Fiji managed to hold out with 14-13 men for so much of the match. In the end they ran out of energy. But for a lot of the game, they competed at the breakdown, competitive scrum, lineout could improve.

Wait..... I totally forgot...... the referee wanted 2 things checked here. The grounding was the second...... the first was onside from the kick!! How fecking ridiculous, the ball kicker was the chaser and was the try scorer. He's so fast he could have been offside from his own kick!, now that would be the thing of myth and legends.

It was a good win for Wales in the end, but they did seem to struggle against a mainly 14,13 man Fiji side.

Did LRZ knock the ball on? i thought it was at first but on replay it seemed ok.

How do you guys see this weekend's match?

Not good. Fiji have shown how to make us struggle, albeit our backrow will be slightly more balanced. I am not confident at all.

Harder to call than who will play right wing for England. Australia probably should have beaten Scotland but barely laid a glove on England. Wales have been underwhelming but did find a way past Fiji. Given the absentees I'd maybe be thinking Wales this week but wouldn't be putting my mortgage on it. Tight scoreline open match.

The centre partnership still seems to be an issue, nobody has consistently impressed. It sounds like Halaholo will play with probably JD2.

Backrow, Wainwright will come back in at 8, probably at the expense of Young.

Time to put someone else at blindside. Seb Davies doesn’t really come across as international quality but has been favoured over Ben Carter so far.

Old Man wrote:How do you guys see this weekend's match?

Australia by 30.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:How do you guys see this weekend's match?

Australia by 30.

With the amount of top class player's that are injured for Wales, it could well be at least 30 points to Australia.
But you know Wales playing at home backs to the wall they ( Wales) may spring a surprise and pull off a win.
The word is (may be).

majesticimperialman wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:How do you guys see this weekend's match?

Australia by 30.

With the amount of top class player's that are injured for Wales, it could well be at least 30 points to Australia.
But you know Wales playing at home backs to the wall they ( Wales) may spring a surprise and pull off a win.
The word is (may be).

OZ isn't at full strength either, missing Tupou, Cooper, Kerevi and Koirobete. They have a major challenge at tight head, and they have been penalty magnets. All Wales have to do is mount pressure on them and can struggle, JOC is playing so deep their backline has been ineffectual.

Their tackle success hasn't been all that good either, and Hooper may not play this weekend

We always struggle against Fiji, as Chris (I think it was) posted earlier in the thread. Lost lots over the years to Fiji. We never like the favourites tag and find it especially hard being favourites against south sea island nations. Against Oz it will be a bit different as Oz will probably be considered favourites. We’ve then got nothing to lose so we might come out fighting and give our all, like we seemed to do against SA a few weeks back. So that could keep the game close but I do worry about how easy we seem to concede tries under Pivac.

I think we looked better when Tomos Williams came on. Much more zip. I seem to remember writing that a while back too about another game that Hardy started. So I’d start Tomos Williams. Probably stick with Biggar although he wasn’t great vs Fiji. Back to JD2 at 12 if possible. Not sure about 13. No one really great there at the moment. Wings - LRZ has earned a spot. Adams if fit back on the other one. Liam W at 15. If we decide to try Adams at 13 as planned v Fiji then the other wing could be Cuthbert I guess as he was ok v Fiji.

Forwards: Dropping like flies! Not sure what props we have left. Is Ken the Sheriff back at hooker? Need to bolster the back row. 3 7s is too lightweight. Need at least 1 big ball carrier there but not sure who is fit and able to do it. Wainwright is a better carrier than the others (from the Fiji game) but he’s no big monster.

It is official, Michael Hooper is out for the test vs Wales

Looks as though Owens, Adams and Francis won't be returning for us either. James Slipper? I could have sworn Aus finally have better props than him.

Just to add to that, we could be without Rowlands and John too. Looks like Dillon Lewis will start then...

It looks like Francis is passing his protocols currently, so he will probably be okay. Adams didn't seem too bad an injury, they just didn't want to force him on Sunday.

Owens was ruled out of the whole AIs last week.

Rowlands and WGJ would be the biggest doubts (imo), as the 6 day turnaround leaves them struggling to complete their concussion protocols. We should really be resting them anyway.

I just hope both teams manage to keep 15 players on the pitch for most of the game ...

Me too. Would be nice for teams to not have to resort to blatant thuggery against us, which every red card has been this year.

Resort to makes it sound like they had no chance but to do otherwise to enable them to beat you. Think that's possibly twisting things!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Resort to makes it sound like they had no chance but to do otherwise to enable them to beat you. Think that's possibly twisting things!

It just seems like a stick on here frequently used to have a pop at Wales. So I felt it deserved a petty response. Maybe Heaf didn't intend it as a swipe (unlike Guns the other day), but as I said, when it's something that is levelled at Wales that they are only beating teams due to red cards, it does get a little tiresome. Especially when people just come straight in with it, it comes across as a throw away line and designed to provoke.

From Wales Online's Press Conference Highlights.

WillGriff John and Will Rowlands are unlikely to play against Australia following their head injuries
Tomas Francis is on course to be available
A late call will be made on Josh Adams and Aaron Wainwright
Jonathan Davies is expected to captain Wales if he is selected in the team. Ellis Jenkins will wear the armband if not

Fair enough. Reds all from memory but not sure anyone has gone after you so to speak. Sau is getting plenty of stick on social media though. Still think he went again to push Williams out of bounds but got it so so wrong. I did think that they were doing the 20 mins trial this Autumn too though obviously not. Dislike that idea as I dislike the 50 22 and new drops.

You think Jenkins got a call from Jones Sunday night just saying take the points next ?!

Haha. I did like the 50 22, until the team I played for on the weekend had two against us. One was a kick 22 to 22 (crazy).

I didn't like that red card trial at all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You think Jenkins got a call from Jones Sunday night just saying take the points next ?!

Possibly. Although I think we will take every points opportunity on the weekend anyway, given we aren't favourites and we are under a bit of pressure again.

Wales v Australia: Captain Michael Hooper ruled out with James Slipper taking over role https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59302867

With Hooper out, wonder who's got the role for late tackling Biggar this time..

I think it could be time to demote Biggar too, he stank against Fiji. Wales really need a fit again Patchell.

As for the "trial" Red card 20 min rule, think we all agree it's ridiculous and should never be trialled never mind being adopted.

For the Red card on Saturday, to the letter of the law Red all day. BUT, I did feel it a little harsh as Williams was falling and I do think Sau was trying to wrap in the tackle (albeit a 2nd tackle attempt) and his arm rose up. It was silly, but I think a Yellow was sufficient and Berry was sold it by the TMO.

But cant disagree, it was a silly undisciplined 2nd attempt at the tackle.

But never mind how you carve it up, and even the painting over the cracks with the last 2 tries, that was a pretty poor performance by Wales against a 13 man side for 20 mins..

Pivac has to go, but I fear the WRU wont get rid of him. Maybe when we take the wooden spoon in the 6 Nations, they may think differently. But have to also say, I'm not sure who would take the position at the moment.

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it could be time to demote Biggar too, he stank against Fiji. Wales really need a fit again Patchell.

As I agree Biggar didnt have a good game, I cant say who did (Liam and LRZ maybe). But not sure Patchell is the answer either.

No9 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it could be time to demote Biggar too, he stank against Fiji. Wales really need a fit again Patchell.

As I agree Biggar didnt have a good game, I cant say who did (Liam and LRZ maybe). But not sure Patchell is the answer either.

It's only injuries holding him back. He's probably the most naturally gifted one we have as he does everything well, he just needs a bit of luck so he can actually play a season of rugby!

No9 wrote:As for the "trial" Red card 20 min rule, think we all agree it's ridiculous and should never be trialled never mind being adopted.

For the Red card on Saturday, to the letter of the law Red all day. BUT, I did feel it a little harsh as Williams was falling and I do think Sau was trying to wrap in the tackle (albeit a 2nd tackle attempt) and his arm rose up. It was silly, but I think a Yellow was sufficient and Berry was sold it by the TMO.

But cant disagree, it was a silly undisciplined 2nd attempt at the tackle.

But never mind how you carve it up, and even the painting over the cracks with the last 2 tries, that was a pretty poor performance by Wales against a 13 man side for 20 mins..

Pivac has to go, but I fear the WRU wont get rid of him. Maybe when we take the wooden spoon in the 6 Nations, they may think differently. But have to also say, I'm not sure who would take the position at the moment.

There is one major reason why I would promote the 20 minute red card.

There is a significant enough percentage of red cards that after the judicials had a look at the incident they strike the red card off a player's record. But then it is too late, a team playing with 14 men is under a severe disadvantage, those matches where the red card given is deemed not red card threshold cant be replayed.

Secondly how many red cards are deliberate blatant foul play? Does a team have to be punished for 70 minutes because of one incident that could be red card threshold by virtue of poor timing, etc?

I see many red cards and I think to myself that was really unlucky because of slight movements, dips, timing etc. And I don't want a team to pay for a whole match due to one player's actions.

Certain plays is clear to be foul plays, tip tackling a player deliberately on his head, a straight stiff arm to the throat, a tucked in elbow shoulder hit to the head. But that perhaps make up 1/4 red cardable incidents, those can have the rest of the day off, but the other 3/4 is often a rugby incident that although could have been avoided, is often debatable.

I'd use Elliot Daly's red card against Argentina as an example, it wasn't malicious but his poor timing endangered the safety of an opposition player, with that in mind he deserved his red card and England by extension deserved to play the rest of the game with 14 players.

Soul Requiem wrote:I'd use Elliot Daly's red card against Argentina as an example, it wasn't malicious but his poor timing endangered the safety of an opposition player, with that in mind he deserved his red card and England by extension deserved to play the rest of the game with 14 players.

That is exactly the type of situation I disagree with.

A player's timing causes a dangerous situation, nothing else, just timing. Now compare that with a deliberate straight stiff arm to a player's throat.

In my view one team doesn't deserve the same penalty as the other.

But in terms of player safety, intent is neither here nor there. That's why (as I understand it) referees aren't supposed to take it into account. We're not going to improve player welfare by watering down red cards.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:But in terms of player safety, intent is neither here nor there. That's why (as I understand it) referees aren't supposed to take it into account. We're not going to improve player welfare by watering down red cards.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't agree with it.

Yes we need to concern ourselves with player safety, but we also need to understand we are playing a contact sport, Poopie will happen. Going down the path of players safety we have to ask ourselves how far we want to go down that route without compromising the fundamentals of the game.

I just don't see a way forward where eventually rugby will become a watered down hybrid of some soft cocked sport.

It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

RiscaGame wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Resort to makes it sound like they had no chance but to do otherwise to enable them to beat you. Think that's possibly twisting things!

It just seems like a stick on here frequently used to have a pop at Wales. So I felt it deserved a petty response. Maybe Heaf didn't intend it as a swipe (unlike Guns the other day), but as I said, when it's something that is levelled at Wales that they are only beating teams due to red cards, it does get a little tiresome. Especially when people just come straight in with it, it comes across as a throw away line and designed to provoke.

I didn't - I meant games generally tend to be spoiled by red cards even when fully deserved ...

Wyn Jones is on standby to cover TH if either Francis or GriffJohn aren't fit.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

Not about being a man's game, it is about being a contact sport, as long as you have contact in rugby you will never eliminate incidents that go wrong due to timing, "not being in a realistic position" etc.

So if we beat the Aussies will anyone else think it's been a decent Autumn series for us?

Oakdene wrote:So if we beat the Aussies will anyone else think it's been a decent Autumn series for us?

Not if they go down to 14 men!

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

Not about being a man's game, it is about being a contact sport, as long as you have contact in rugby you will never eliminate incidents that go wrong due to timing, "not being in a realistic position" etc.

Well yes, and that's my point, reducing recklessness. If players are sent off because they're gone in too strongly to try to make the big tackle, with too much speed and they hit a head and are sent off; well, good. They need to alter their poor technique.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Old Man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not aimed at intent but at recklessness. We can reduce that by proper red cards and bans rather than letting them off as its a 'mans game'.

Not about being a man's game, it is about being a contact sport, as long as you have contact in rugby you will never eliminate incidents that go wrong due to timing, "not being in a realistic position" etc.

Well yes, and that's my point, reducing recklessness. If players are sent off because they're gone in too strongly to try to make the big tackle, with too much speed and they hit a head and are sent off; well, good. They need to alter their poor technique.

Going in for a hard hit, is not poor technique necessarily. Ball carriers play a role in how they are tackled, if they dip, if they feign, jink etc, impossble for a tackler to recover his angle or height in an instant.