Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

I did wonder about Francis, but Pivac is pretty stubborn like that and he will hide behind the protocols.

It’s harsh on Tompkins too, in my opinion. I assume Davies is 12, but ultimately Pivac was prepared to go Tompkins against Tuilagi initially, so was happy with his physicality then.

Yes I agree. Tompkins has been pretty good this tournament for me.

Interesting for Navidi to come back in straight away. I think Seb Davies is better at 6 but he still isn’t hard enough… We do have a big number 8 in the squad mind but he can’t get a look-in.

I think we need a fast 7 for this, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Jac Morgan in.

I think that it would be a shame to split the centre partnership up, it's an area where we really need to build up some consistency.

I agree, I would like to see Morgan start, I guess Seb Davies at 6 offers another lineout option?

As for the Francis selection, if all the medical team are telling Pivac that he's fit and available for selection, how can he go against the word of the professionals? However, if they have told him that technically he's passed fit, but they have reservations about putting him back in, that's a different matter. Without being privy to those conversations it's all conjecture.

chris_501 wrote:I think that it would be a shame to split the centre partnership up, it's an area where we really need to build up some consistency.

I agree, I would like to see Morgan start, I guess Seb Davies at 6 offers another lineout option?

As for the Francis selection, if all the medical team are telling Pivac that he's fit and available for selection, how can he go against the word of the professionals? However, if they have told him that technically he's passed fit, but they have reservations about putting him back in, that's a different matter. Without being privy to those conversations it's all conjecture.

And if Pivac doesn't play him, will Exeter?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Yes this is what I was talking about. Just can't see how Wales can get around the 14 day rest break and the concussion protocols when the footage clearly shows he sustained a head knock.  As the link says:

"The two doctors claim "the typical observation on video are confirmed loss of consciousness, suspected loss of consciousness, convulsion, tonic posturing, balance disturbance/ataxia and clearly dazed"."  That';s an automatic 14 days off, from what I understand.

Regards Navidi coming in to the Wales squad.

Every coach wants his best players on the pitch at any one time. Lets be honest Navidi is one of Wales best players.

With all respect to Pivac and the welsh public Wales have no chance of retaining the championship this year or even winning the 6ns, So would it not be better for Navidi to be left with his club, and Wales continue with the team they have for the rfest of the tournament?

Yeah, seems to be trying to sidestep this as he passed the protocol, and that's what I criticised Pivac for on the other thread, it doesn't matter if he did as he had already 'failed' the previous part of the process. I criticised Pivac as he is the public face of the Welsh side. it feels a bit of a get out. And just an odd set of decisions, the medics messed up and somehow missed the unsteadiness (these things shouldn't happen but the do), this just seems doubling down on mistakes?

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Yes this is what I was talking about. Just can't see how Wales can get around the 14 day rest break and the concussion protocols when the footage clearly shows he sustained a head knock.  As the link says:

"The two doctors claim "the typical observation on video are confirmed loss of consciousness, suspected loss of consciousness, convulsion, tonic posturing, balance disturbance/ataxia and clearly dazed"."  That';s an automatic 14 days off, from what I understand.

I thought it was 7 days? Or is that for a failed HIA?

Oakdene wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60640946

Yes this is what I was talking about. Just can't see how Wales can get around the 14 day rest break and the concussion protocols when the footage clearly shows he sustained a head knock.  As the link says:

"The two doctors claim "the typical observation on video are confirmed loss of consciousness, suspected loss of consciousness, convulsion, tonic posturing, balance disturbance/ataxia and clearly dazed"."  That';s an automatic 14 days off, from what I understand.

I thought it was 7 days? Or is that for a failed HIA?

https://www.world.rugby/news/612885

'Confirmed' concussion is 2 weeks. And it looks as if the WRU are saying it's not confirmed as he passed the test. Completely ignoring the start of the process that says it's a fail if he loses balance. Though there is at least 1 dr on here that may confirm that that counts as confirmed concussion. You can understand the ex welsh staff members saying it's not being dealt with sufficiently though.

Seems like the delay in team selection is due to the reaction of him initially selecting Watkin and certainly Francis.

I note the Wail think that he was swapping Gareth Thomas for Wyn Jones too.

Here it is:

WALES (vs France, Friday)
15. Liam Williams (Scarlets – 77 caps)
14. Alex Cuthbert (Ospreys – 50 caps)
13. Owen Watkin (Ospreys – 29 caps)
12. Jonathan Davies (Scarlets – 95 caps)
11. Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby – 37 caps)
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints – 98 caps), captain
9. Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby – 32 caps)
1. Gareth Thomas (Ospreys – 8 caps)
2. Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 26 caps)
3. Tomas Francis (Ospreys – 63 caps)
4. Will Rowlands (Dragons – 16 caps)
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys – 32 caps), vice-captain
6. Seb Davies (Cardiff Rugby – 15 caps)
7. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby – 28 caps)
8. Taulupe Faletau (Bath Rugby – 87 caps)

Replacements
16. Dewi Lake (Ospreys – 3 caps)
17. Wyn Jones (Scarlets – 41 caps)
18. Dillon Lewis (Cardiff Rugby – 36 caps)
19. Ross Moriarty (Dragons – 52 caps)
20. Jac Morgan (Ospreys – 2 caps)
21. Kieran Hardy (Scarlets – 9 caps)
22. Gareth Anscombe (Ospreys – 30 caps)
23. Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby – 14 caps)

So, he's named Francis but dropped Wyn Jones?  Back row as predicted and Basham drops out altogether.  Is Seb Davies solid enough though?  Has he got the 'dog' we need in at least one of our back rowers?  Is Navidi fit enough to go in against one of the most relentless teams around at the moment?  It's going to be non stop backs against the wall stuff in this game.  How good is Gareth Thomas in the scrum?  Ospreys have been praised for their scrum this season by some.  So is this a reward for that and a sign that he has the potential to be a good international prop? Dillon Lewis on the bench again.  Last game seemed to be about Brown being Pivac's 'go to back up bench prop' according to some articles.  Yet he drops out altogether now?  Is he injured?  Or is this just tinkering?  Same for Tompkins - flavour of the month so far this tournament but not even in the squad!

Lots of questions and some more I'm sure people can think of!

Tompkins is out with concussion. Wales say about Francis that he has passed all return to play protocols, bar the complete rest for 24 hours after being concussed that is.

Oh right. Didn’t realise about Tompkins. That kinda makes sense then as I think he’s been decent so far.

I don’t really get why he is rotating Brown and Lewis. I feel for Basham too.

Pretty underwhelmed by that team. I would’ve gone Navidi 6, Basham/Morgan 7, but I guess that’s not Pivac’s style.

I also feel like it’s a lot of pressure on Thomas to start against France. Pivac does love putting a rocket up Wyn Jones mind

He does, aye! Called him out for being overweight. What’s his reasoning now I wonder?!

I too would have gone for Navidi 6 (if he had to be in the team), Morgan or Basham 7 and Faletau 8.

The picks this tournament have the feel of trying players out and testing combos ahead of the world cup. IMO the 6N is the wrong place for that. Others might disagree, but for me the 6N is the next biggest thing after the World Cup. It’s much bigger than the AIs IMO. If we are going to experiment and have a look at players I’d do it in the summer tours and AIs. 6N should be as strong as possible, but perhaps he just doesn’t know his strongest team?

Edit: not saying these players are not strong. It’s a good position to be in. But in a tournament like the 6N, we need continuity and building partnerships. Unless a player has a stinker or two then switching him out and dropping him altogether isn’t great.

Pivac's been talking about what Seb Davies offers in 'the wide channels'. That rings alarm bells straightaway to me that we're not going to look after the ball, and France are an excellent counter-rucking side. I can see us getting turned over a lot on Friday if we're not careful.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but France are going to win with something to spare, aren't they?

Match thread here:

https://www.606v2.com/t70590-wales-v-france-match-thread#4029634

AWJ called up. I would have rotated slightly for Italy, not sure I’d have called in AWJ to play though.

Ah, pretty pointless to do it, although obviously Pivac and Wales need the win so they will go as strong as possible.

I assume Rowlands will drop to the bench, which would be pretty harsh.

Rowlands has probably been the most consistent performer and people are finally starting to recognise it. It would be harsh yeah. Italy won’t have a chance in Cardiff, and I think it’s a good idea to rest guys like Francis, Biggar. Those two and Ken Owens will be our most important players at the World Cup.

mikey_dragon wrote:AWJ called up. I would have rotated slightly for Italy, not sure I’d have called in AWJ to play though.

Maybe he wants to get him ‘in the environment’ and have a look at him. One for the future

Pivac only builds for the future when we lose. Ben Carter continuing with tackle bag duty then.

This campaign seems to be the opposite of the last one, we have arguably outplayed England and France in the last two rounds and lost, whereas last year we didn’t play as well and won.

Worth noting that there is a good chance that we could finish the tournament in 3rd!

The usual suspect has offered this team as what has been named for Sat. I had envisaged Pivac making some of these changes, but not quite as many.

Anscombe, Cuthbert, Adams, Halaholo, LRZ, Biggar, Hardy, G Thomas, Lake, Brown, Rowlands, Beard, Navidi, Morgan, Faletau.

I would have probably changed the centres and TH. Starting Dewi Lake is a decent call. Anscombe isn't a full-back, he is probably third or fourth choice there. I also feel he is probably third or fourth fly-half too. Holmes, Patchell and Lloyd can offer more.

Haha. He has just posted that he was baiting Wales Online with that team. Team announcement at 14:30 tomorrow anyway, so not long to wait.

Rascal.

chris_501 wrote:This campaign seems to be the opposite of the last one, we have arguably outplayed England and France in the last two rounds and lost, whereas last year we didn’t play as well and won.

Worth noting that there is a good chance that we could finish the tournament in 3rd!

The worst thing is if you'd offered me third before the start of the tournament, I would have bitten your hand off!

AWJ is back with the welsh training squad, his recovery rate is remarkable. But is he fully fit? will he be a the squad for the game against Italy?

I am all for having you best players on the field at all times. But surely it is time to move on from AWJ. Look to the future 2023 RWC and beyond.

I think the plan is for AWJ to go to the 2023 World Cup. Therefore, he needs to be selected and play between now and then. I agree that the Italy game though is one where we can try someone else. But AWJ has to be picked sometime between now and the WC.

Wales: 15. Johnny McNicholl, 14. Louis Rees-Zammit, 13. Owen Watkin, 12. Uilisi Halaholo, 11. Josh Adams, 10. Dan Biggar (capt), 9. Gareth Davies, 1. Gareth Thomas, 2. Dewi Lake, 3. Dillon Lewis, 4. Adam Beard, 5. Alun Wyn Jones, 6. Seb Davies, 7. Josh Navidi, 8. Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: 16. Bradley Roberts, 17. Wyn Jones, 18. Leon Brown, 19. Will Rowlands, 20. Ross Moriarty, 21. Kieran Hardy, 22. Callum Sheedy, 23. Nick Tompkins.

Dropped our best player so far (Rowlands)! Good to see Dewi Lake getting a start. Played well from the bench so far.

He’s sticking with the back row from the England game. I just can’t work Pivac out. Sticks with some things but chops and changes others. Only one back row on the bench (Moriarty). Is that normal? Would have been a good game to look at Jac Morgan perhaps.

All I can say is that Pivac’s method has at least exposed some new players and we’re getting some decent depth now. Maybe that was the aim all along?

I don't understand the way Cawdor gets dropped from match day squads, then comes in ahead of Hardy.

Oakdene wrote:I don't understand the way Cawdor gets dropped from match day squads, then comes in ahead of Hardy.

It's very random aye. Similar/the same as McNicholl really.

The Oracle wrote:Dropped our best player so far (Rowlands)! Good to see Dewi Lake getting a start. Played well from the bench so far.

Agree on both.

RiscaGame wrote:

Oakdene wrote:I don't understand the way Cawdor gets dropped from match day squads, then comes in ahead of Hardy.

It's very random aye. Similar/the same as McNicholl really.

The Oracle wrote:Dropped our best player so far (Rowlands)! Good to see Dewi Lake getting a start. Played well from the bench so far.

Agree on both.

I think he will be the starting full back for the summer tour so I almost understand that one. But what message this sends to Hardy is beyond me...

I wonder if this is going to be like one of those AI games against the weakest of the 4 opponents where we put out a team who has never played together and we struggle to produce anything cohesive? Few of the units have played much together have they? New front row combo. Back row with 1 game together. Have Halaholo and Tomokins played together much? The back 3? Gareth D coming in rusty from the international wilderness.

This must be the back-row Pivac has in mind for SA, give or take an open-side. I still don't think Seb Davies is the guy, Shingler is still available... I get there's rotation for this, Italy keep struggling to get a result and I can't see them doing it here either. JD2 can stay dropped for his drop against France . Going forward I think we need to be looking at Rogers, Holmes and James Ratti as they play in positions where we need depth.

I also hope he's had a chat with Rowlands to explain this selection.

Dragons’ 9 Rhodri Williams has been called up to train with the wales squad, presumably as a precaution in case one of the two fit 9s (Davies and Hardy) pick up a late injury. Didn’t see that one coming to be honest.

Nah, but I guess he is next cab off the rank. I’m sure he won’t be needed, but it is good to have another player in the squad

What a kick in the teeth for Webb though! In fairness I have watched very little Ospreys rugby this season so I don’t know if he’s in better form than Rhodri Williams, but is Webb really now 5th choice in Wales? That move home has really not worked out well (from a Wales ambitions point of view).

The Oracle wrote:What a kick in the teeth for Webb though! In fairness I have watched very little Ospreys rugby this season so I don’t know if he’s in better form than Rhodri Williams, but is Webb really now 5th choice in Wales? That move home has really not worked out well (from a Wales ambitions point of view).

Webb has come out and said that he has no intention of being 3rd choice in the squad and would rather spend the time with his family (his prerogative) which is why he hasn't been called up. Should we have lost Williams, Davies and Hardy before the first game for the whole campaign, maybe Webb would have been selected as a starter then.

On a separate note, I've read so much about our blunt attacking game following last Friday. A couple of points on that, we were playing a Shaun Edwards defence, which is always going to be a tough assignment. Also, it was only the game before we out scored England 3-1 in tries, I think what it shows is that without Tomos Williams and Tompkins we lacked the two most creative players from this campaign so far.

It’s just a little disappointing that we’ve lined ourselves up to play defensively twice at home. Twickenham was obviously good, but it’s a little easier to chase a game too, as you will throw caution to the wind quite a bit.

Apart from the Seb Davies selection, which others have been defensive? Maybe JD2 instead of Halaholo last week?

Sorry, I meant tactics rather than selection. Although the selection hasn’t been great.

[quote="chris_501"]

The Oracle wrote:On a separate note, I've read so much about our blunt attacking game following last Friday. A couple of points on that, we were playing a Shaun Edwards defence, which is always going to be a tough assignment. Also, it was only the game before we out scored England 3-1 in tries, I think what it shows is that without Tomos Williams and Tompkins we lacked the two most creative players from this campaign so far.

Just a couple more points on that... The attack has been a blunt force since Pivac started. We've even struggled to score against 14 men quite often during this coaching era. It doesn't help that Wales stopped producing good centres.

I didn’t write that quote!

I'm not sure its actually any worse than it has been over the last decade, I guess the hope was that with a new coaching team, who had employed a more expansive game at the Scarlets would transfer that through to international rugby.

How many times was our tactic to move sideways, sideways, sideways then give it to Shane? Howley was always the coach that came under the most pressure in the last regime.

I'm also not so sure about the centres being completely to blame, apart from Henson I can't think of a great creative centre we've had (although we have had some very good strong defensive ones)