Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

So that was fun

Highlights:

Thought Dewi Lake was very good and is a contender for no.1 hooker going forward if The Sheriff doesn’t get back to his best. I think it should be Lake’s to lose now, with the other hookers including Owens having to force him out.

Thought Rowlands had a good tournament and was not happy to see him dropped for AWJ today (who we really didn’t need to take a look at). Would have been nice to see Rowlands start today, for continuity.

Tompkins was decent over the tournament and I think is a better option at 12 to JD2.

Hardy was good too I thought.

Gareth Thomas in the scrum was pretty good I think. So a decent find and a bit more depth unearthed.

Faletau coming back was good and showed that he still had it and he hit the ground as if he’d never been injured.

Dan Biggar rose to the challenge of captain and I think his game improved and his petulance decreased, so win win.

Apart from that there were not many other positives. It seemed to me that Pivac was experimenting with selection and perhaps trialling things to build depth for the World Cup. Whether that was the case or not I do not know or whether it’s just his nature to tinker. Therefore it is not clear whether he knows what his first team is, or even his second. Is it tinkering and blooding players, or is it just no clue who to start? Hard to tell.

One of the big negatives for me was the amount of times we were turned over in the tackle. We were isolated many many times every game, in key areas in our own half and in the opposition half. Today against Italy at one point we got turned over for holding on, gave away a penalty which they kicked, we kicked off back to them, we got possession (can’t remember how) and got turned over for holding on again, and they kicked the points! So 6 points within minutes for the same thing. I posted the other day that with Gatland and Edwards the tackle area and ruck were massively important and we used to flood it, resulting in us being able to build phase after phase and grind teams down. We’ve now gone too far the other way with one up runners who get isolated and turned over. It was farcical this tournament. Would love to see the stats on it. We’ve got to support the runner more and be better at clearing out (legally) and securing possession. Otherwise we’ll get nowhere.

Not looking forward to a summer tour to SA

Pivac has this fascination with players being out of rucks, but it isn’t working. We get isolated and slowed too often. I would’ve hoped for a change of tack by now.

Pivac had his selection all wrong yesterday. A lot is being made of AWJ coming back in, but that probably could’ve worked had he not made other howlers. AWJ at least usually sets the standards and gives the squad a lift when he is involved. Seb Davies should never have started again yesterday, as it makes our back row too pedestrian. Gareth Davies definitely shouldn’t have started. I didn’t really see what benefit there was to starting Cuthbert earlier in the tournament, but what was the point of dropping him once they had used him and it is evident that LRZ isn’t really on form currently? It was a lot of pressure to put on players like Halaholo and McNicholl to come in and be expected to make a difference too.

The SA tour was always going to be tough. Now it looks like we will really be up against it. You would think that some players will need a rest too.

Dai Young said a few months ago that the success of the national side glosses over the failures of the WRU in investment and so on further up the supply chain, and that nothing would be addressed / changed as long as Team Wales was winning. For that reason I can't feel too upset by how the tournament's gone. Things aren't right in the game here and they haven't been for some time.

Players and coaches need to go: Pivac, Jones, Humphreys, Jenkins.

Anscombe, Johnny McNicholl, Gareth Davies, Seb Davies, Elias, Ellis Jenkins, Sheedy, Watkin. I'm not sure who else we lose from the back-row as nobody else really put a foot wrong there. AWJ, depending on what capacity he should stay in the squad but not at the expense of starting Beard / Rowlands.

To come in; Patchell, Lloyd, Owens, North, Tipuric, Ratti, Jarrod Evans, Ben Thomas, Nicky Smith.
If Tompkins and North aren't available I think we should put a fly-half at centre. The Scarlets U20 centre James looks very good, would like to see him get a crack at pro rugby.

HAS i said on the other thread Mikey.
What new coaches would you bring in?

Forwards: Rhys Carre, Wyn Jones, Gareth Thomas, Ryan Elias, Dewi Lake, Sam Parry, Leon Brown, Tomas Francis, Dillon Lewis, Adam Beard, Will Rowlands, Alun Wyn Jones, Ben Carter, Dan Lydiate, Josh Navidi, James Ratti, Taulupe Faletau, Taine Basham, Tommy Reffell.

Backs: Gareth Davies, Kieran Hardy, Tomos Williams, Dan Biggar (capt), Gareth Anscombe, Rhys Patchell, George North, Nick Tompkins, Owen Watkin, Johnny Williams, Josh Adams, Alex Cuthbert, Louis Rees-Zammit, Liam Williams.

Reffell inclued, I thought we were told that he's not eligible. Glad Ratti is in again, hopefully not to just hold tackle bags again, Wayne. And Lydiate, really? Glad you're over Seb Davies though! Now you just need to get over Elias...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Reffell inclued, I thought we were told that he's not eligible. Glad Ratti is in again, hopefully not to just hold tackle bags again, Wayne. And Lydiate, really? Glad you're over Seb Davies though! Now you just need to get over Elias...

The bit about Elias is unfair, he has played well this season both for region & country. I don't dispute Lake is ahead of him though.

Reffell has always been eligible as far as I know as he hasn't played for us yet, but if he does get capped he will have to sign with a region when his contract comes up.

I'd like to see what Ratti can do though I can't help but think it will be Faletau starting in all 3 tests & I can't see Pivac putting a specialist 8 on the bench.

Elias is a decent third or fourth choice, nothing more (except in Scarlet eyes like Pivac's).

I thought that's why they said he didn't pick Reffell for the 6N?

mikey_dragon wrote:Elias is a decent third or fourth choice, nothing more (except in Scarlet eyes like Pivac's).

I thought that's why they said he didn't pick Reffell for the 6N?

Refell has never not been eligible for selection.

No future planning with that squad. Taking players who need a rest/decent pre season and those like Leon Brown who are currently injured. You can tell Pivac is struggling to keep his job.

The future planning thing wouldn’t be so bad, but it’s another drum that Pivac beats when things don’t go his way, so I get why people will mention it. I probably wouldn’t have picked much different as we’re getting desperate now.
Jarrod Evans over Anscombe for me. I don’t get when coach’s pick Lydiate based on past form, as I don’t see him being that good on current form. The 4 back three players again is a bit weird, but if you’re having a fly-half cover there then it has to be someone decent like Patchell.

I don't understand why AWJ keeps getting selected.

He had been injured for what seemed like a decade , he gets brought back into the squad for the 6 nations just to make him the most capped player to ever play the game. And Wales loose to Italy.

Surely he should be rested for the rest of the season and some one else brought in to take his place when he does retire.
Is he hoping to go on to the next RWC?

mikey_dragon wrote:Elias is a decent third or fourth choice, nothing more (except in Scarlet eyes like Pivac's).

I thought that's why they said he didn't pick Reffell for the 6N?

The only Welsh hooker who is ahead of him right now is Lake & Lake should start all 3 tests injury permitting.

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Elias is a decent third or fourth choice, nothing more (except in Scarlet eyes like Pivac's).

I thought that's why they said he didn't pick Reffell for the 6N?

The only Welsh hooker who is ahead of him right now is Lake & Lake should start all 3 tests injury permitting.

And Parry. Elias isn't international standard.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Elias is a decent third or fourth choice, nothing more (except in Scarlet eyes like Pivac's).

I thought that's why they said he didn't pick Reffell for the 6N?

The only Welsh hooker who is ahead of him right now is Lake & Lake should start all 3 tests injury permitting.

And Parry. Elias isn't international standard.

Elias has done well this season & has started to offer more around the park too, you have a dislike for him I know but to say he isn't up to standard is a bit wide of the mark. Parry is a good player but I have Ospreys fans who can't believe he is in the squad.

How can I dislike the guy? I've never met him, I don't know him on a personal level, and he actually comes across as a decent character from what I can tell. You always resort to this cheap jibe when I put deserved criticism on a member of the Scarlets family .

It would be wide of the mark in Scarlet eyes, but all the matches where he was out of his depth say otherwise. Nothing has changed.

majesticimperialman wrote:I don't understand why AWJ keeps getting selected.

He had been injured for what seemed like a decade , he gets brought back into the squad for the 6 nations just to make him the most capped player to ever play the game. And Wales loose to Italy.

Surely he should be rested for the rest of the season and some one else brought in to take his place when he does retire.
Is he hoping to go on to the next RWC?

Jesus, have a day off. Injured for a decade? Grow up.

AWJ didn't become the most capped player against Italy, so at least try and show a bit of knowledge. Your thinking seems to be a little lose. Use Google to learn what he did.

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I don't understand why AWJ keeps getting selected.

He had been injured for what seemed like a decade , he gets brought back into the squad for the 6 nations just to make him the most capped player to ever play the game. And Wales loose to Italy.

Surely he should be rested for the rest of the season and some one else brought in to take his place when he does retire.
Is he hoping to go on to the next RWC?

Jesus, have a day off. Injured for a decade? Grow up.

AWJ didn't become the most capped player against Italy, so at least try and show a bit of knowledge. Your thinking seems to be a little lose. Use Google to learn what he did.

Are you saying that they did not bring AWJ back into the wales squad to get his most capps of all time?

mikey_dragon wrote:How can I dislike the guy? I've never met him, I don't know him on a personal level, and he actually comes across as a decent character from what I can tell. You always resort to this cheap jibe when I put deserved criticism on a member of the Scarlets family .

It would be wide of the mark in Scarlet eyes, but all the matches where he was out of his depth say otherwise. Nothing has changed.

I don't think I make any cheap jibes to be honest but he has played well this season for region & country. Pundits & fans, even non Scarlet fans, have said as much this year.

You said the exact same when I've crticised the chump in charge of Team Wales, who is also Scarlets family. Perhaps open the other eye and you'll see these people are damaging the national team.

Are you referring to the WOL? They had him down as a POTY candidate didn't they

mikey_dragon wrote:You said the exact same when I've crticised the chump in charge of Team Wales, who is also Scarlets family. Perhaps open the other eye and you'll see these people are damaging the national team.

Are you referring to the WOL? They had him down as a POTY candidate didn't they

I'll be honest & say that I was wrong in defending Pivac, I am always one for giving a coach time but it is clear he is out of his depth. My reasoning for defending him was he had a slow start with us & then brought success but after seeing the rugby played in the 6 nations just gone & his comments about Jac, I really think he should be stopped before getting on the plane! I was wrong there.

I'm not actually, Im referring to pundits talking before matches & analysing matches.

I did see that list & to be fair it was like picking the best of a bad bunch

majesticimperialman wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I don't understand why AWJ keeps getting selected.

He had been injured for what seemed like a decade , he gets brought back into the squad for the 6 nations just to make him the most capped player to ever play the game. And Wales loose to Italy.

Surely he should be rested for the rest of the season and some one else brought in to take his place when he does retire.
Is he hoping to go on to the next RWC?

Jesus, have a day off. Injured for a decade? Grow up.

AWJ didn't become the most capped player against Italy, so at least try and show a bit of knowledge. Your thinking seems to be a little lose. Use Google to learn what he did.

Are you saying that they did not bring AWJ back into the wales squad to get his most capps of all time?

Yes. They brought AWJ in against Italy to gain his 150th Welsh cap. He became the most capped player against NZ in the Autumn. These are simple and irrefutable facts Madge. Unsurprisingly, you have fallen short in knowledge again.

I am glad that coaches are taking Pivac to task on some of his selections though. It's about time.

It's a thankless task, selection. Not defending Pivac but he's in an almost impossible position. Playing the top team in the world, away, on a 3 game tour. If he leaves behind inexperienced but in-form players he gets slated. If he takes them and drops some experienced players instead what happens if the team gets a mauling (which they're likely to anyway)? He gets slated again. He needs a balance.

I think a lot of the calls are marginal. Young has called out (sort of) Pivac for not taking Botham and Seb Davies but which back rowers above are not worthy of their place over them? I guess it's a good position to be in that we have to leave out some good players due to lack of space.

Are there any really stand out errors or rubbish selections in the squad? (Mikey's thoughts on Elias have already been noted )

The Oracle wrote:It's a thankless task, selection.  Not defending Pivac but he's in an almost impossible position.  Playing the top team in the world, away, on a 3 game tour.  If he leaves behind inexperienced but in-form players he gets slated.  If he takes them and drops some experienced players instead what happens if the team gets a mauling (which they're likely to anyway)?  He gets slated again.  He needs a balance.

I think a lot of the calls are marginal.  Young has called out (sort of) Pivac for not taking Botham and Seb Davies but which back rowers above are not worthy of their place over them?  I guess it's a good position to be in that we have to leave out some good players due to lack of space.  

Are there any really stand out errors or rubbish selections in the squad? (Mikey's thoughts on Elias have already been noted )

Ratti over Botham is nuts.

Pivac has spent months telling everybody he needs a 4/6 for the RWC 31 and then he selects a 31 strong squad without a 4/6.

So that explains Young's comments.

Pivac is spoofing this. He's already started the blame game with the pro clubs.

He's admitted to resting Jon Davies but then picks a 34 year old blindside who isn't even first choice at the Ospreys. Pivac is inconstant in deed, action and, even worse, dishonest in discourse.

I wouldn't have taken Seb Davies as he's too soft, nor Botham who is just living off a famous surname for now. Dillon Lewis is another who isn't international standard but there was nobody else available. Leaving out Jac Morgan for size reasons, when he's likely not to get bigger is a bit silly. You got to be honest there and state the obvious, we have too many 7's - Reffell is getting a fair crack at it.

PhilBB wrote:Ratti over Botham is nuts.

Pivac has spent months telling everybody he needs a 4/6 for the RWC 31 and then he selects a 31 strong squad without a 4/6.

So that explains Young's comments.

Pivac is spoofing this. He's already started the blame game with the pro clubs.

He's admitted to resting Jon Davies but then picks a 34 year old blindside who isn't even first choice at the Ospreys. Pivac is inconstant in deed, action and, even worse, dishonest in discourse.

It's not nuts as they're in different positions and we need more No.8's. Botham is average, but has decent potential.

Agree with pretty much everything else you've said here.

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You said the exact same when I've crticised the chump in charge of Team Wales, who is also Scarlets family. Perhaps open the other eye and you'll see these people are damaging the national team.

Are you referring to the WOL? They had him down as a POTY candidate didn't they

I'll be honest & say that I was wrong in defending Pivac, I am always one for giving a coach time but it is clear he is out of his depth.

Yeah you were wrong, so now maybe you'll shhh about it.

A slow start is never an excuse, particularly given the win/loss ratio, and taking into account points score and conceded; all of which is shocking.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You said the exact same when I've crticised the chump in charge of Team Wales, who is also Scarlets family. Perhaps open the other eye and you'll see these people are damaging the national team.

Are you referring to the WOL? They had him down as a POTY candidate didn't they

I'll be honest & say that I was wrong in defending Pivac, I am always one for giving a coach time but it is clear he is out of his depth.  

Yeah you were wrong, so now maybe you'll shhh about it.

A slow start is never an excuse, particularly given the win/loss ratio, and taking into account points score and conceded; all of which is shocking.

We won the 6 nations last year, yes we got lucky in parts but the history books wont show that.

Now I am in agreeance that he is out of his depth as he is spouting rubbish in terms of reasons why he is leaving player behind & his now muddled squad selections.

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:You said the exact same when I've crticised the chump in charge of Team Wales, who is also Scarlets family. Perhaps open the other eye and you'll see these people are damaging the national team.

Are you referring to the WOL? They had him down as a POTY candidate didn't they

I'll be honest & say that I was wrong in defending Pivac, I am always one for giving a coach time but it is clear he is out of his depth.  

Yeah you were wrong, so now maybe you'll shhh about it.

A slow start is never an excuse, particularly given the win/loss ratio, and taking into account points score and conceded; all of which is shocking.

We won the 6 nations last year, yes we got lucky in parts but the history books wont show that.

Now I am in agreeance that he is out of his depth as he is spouting rubbish in terms of reasons why he is leaving player behind & his now muddled squad selections.

The history books won't care, but in the here and now the people who matter care about it. The red cards were a deciding factor, Wales were still rubbish for large parts of the tournament. We almost lost to 14-man Ireland - I'm bringing that up before someone starts banging the drum about almost beating France.

True and he's been this way since day 1. I know he isn't helped with the declining state of Welsh Rubgy, but Gatland managed it because he was a suitable appointment.

Sian Lloyd, the weather reporter, has had her say! Love it!

https://rugbyonslaught.com/weather-reporter-destroys-pivac-in-brutal-online-tirade/?fbclid=IwAR3QrkmgckNcCMOyGm6JTzqZu0YnCXvG8K-g5knEs4i9CGILngogqGdxNgA

https://twitter.com/SianWeather/status/1526972672088981504

Not a parody account either!

I agree with some of Pivac's selections but yeah, on the whole he is mad. Remember Mad Marc of France? We need to think of a catchy name for our 'coach'. Wayne Wonder?

You have to say, fair play to Jac Morgan. What a game he’s having against a very powerful team.

Bit if a nasty clear out from Jones yesterday.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit if a nasty clear out from Jones yesterday.

If you play SA teams then you have to match them. I didn't see anything illegal from either team.

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bit if a nasty clear out from Jones yesterday.

If you play SA teams then you have to match them. I didn't see anything illegal from either team.

He appears to spear someone.

I didn't notice, do you remember at what point in the game? I take it you're referrring to AWJ, I mean who other if it's you mentioning it .

I do think he's massively overrated but mention it as it could be a ban. It doesn't look good at all to me but put a link here.

https://twitter.com/SARugbymag/status/1527774675362775045?t=dDqfekI2f1HmOhh26Tdirw&s=19

Ah I see. Not sure if it’s a spear, as he’s already lying all over it and AWJ just moves his legs.

Yeah. Just moves his legs. In a kinda driving downwards motion!

Would do the old fella a favour, if he got banned from this shatshow of a tour anyway. Maybe that was his plan? The wily old fox.

Leon Brown out.
Sam Wainwright in.

Brown should never have been selected in the first place. He should always have been given the summer off.

Just wondering, but I don't think Wainwright has played much for Sarries. Unless he's established himself as first choice I don't see the point in picking him. You wouldn't scour the WP and select them to tour to 'build for the future'. If it were up to me I'd take a good scrummaging prop like Tom Botha.

I read somewhere that there might’ve been some uncertainty, over whether Botha is actually qualified now. I think because he qualified before the residency period time changed, but didn’t/couldn’t get capped and then the time changed to five years.

Not sure on that obviously, just what I’ve seen people say on Twitter.

Just looked Tom Botha up on Wiki as I wasn't sure of his age or background. Christ, he's had more clubs than Chris Ashton!

I agree that we need to take the best available. I don't think you learn much going to SA with development players. You save that for tours to USA or Canada, etc. But those tours are becoming fewer and farther between so not sure where someone like Wainright can get 'blooded'.

Looking at Botha though - he's 32 in a month or two so not sure he's got much future with Wales? Maybe none now if what Risca says is right. He might be 33/34 by the time he's eligible.

I’ve no clue if he actually is eligible then, and if he was eligible, would Wayne Wonder select him? Probably not. I’m hoping and praying Jason Howell Jenkins has a Welsh parent or grandparent. That would in-part answer our front 5 issues. With a name like that surely?

Players are eligible to switch nations if they have been stood down for three years – in other words, not been selected for 36 months – and if they, or a parent or grandparent, were born in the country they wish to represent.

Springbok squad
Forwards (25): Thomas du Toit, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Frans Malherbe, Ntuthuko Mchunu, Ox Nche, Trevor Nyakane, Joseph Dweba, Malcolm Marx, Bongi Mbonambi, Lood de Jager, Eben Etzebeth, Salmaan Moerat, Ruan Nortje, Marvin Orie, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Marcell Coetzee, Siya Kolisi, Elrigh Louw, Evan Roos, Kwagga Smith, Jasper Wiese, Rynhardt Elstadt, Deon Fourie, Franco Mostert

Backs (18): Faf de Klerk, Jaden Hendrikse, Herschel Jantjies, Grant Williams, Johan Goosen, Elton Jantjies, Handre Pollard, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Andre Esterhuizen, Jesse Kriel, Aphelele Fassi, Warrick Gelant, Cheslin Kolbe, Willie le Roux, Makazole Mapimpi, Kurt-Lee Arendse, Damian Willemse

That's a fantastic Boks squad. Vermuelen and Snyman the only obvious absentees and they have good cover.

Marco van Staden might challenge the bench at full fitness too but wont usurp Kolisi starting.

Esterhuizen suits the game plan and gives them a fantastic backup to de Allende so makes complete sense to get him involved again.

I can see Evan Roos being the long term successor to Vermuelen at 8. He looks an absolute beast.

Sad news making the rounds, the great Phil Bennett has passed away.