Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

Well done Wales you finally done it beating SA in SA vwey well played.

Well done Wales. Only got around to watch it today.First Welsh side to topple SA in SA. Big boogie of your backs now. I think many of the SH perfect home records are going to fall soon

So, having watched the last two games, how do people think we are looking ?

One thing that worried me was us replacing AWJ. But it is quite refreshing not to only see Will Rowlands and Adam Beard stepping up, but if anybody has been watching the U20's you would not be able to miss two massive players with massive potential in Dafydd Jenkins and Christ Tshiunza who both play together at Exeter, Rob Baxter has really brought these two players on.

I also think we have unearthed a gem with Sam Wainwright, he looked really good when he came on.

WOL’s player ratings were a bit off . I think Beard is another one who’s been average the last few games. Lydiate is there to tackle which he did well but he doesn’t seem to bring much else, some fans would have you think he’s the best in the world right now. Congratulations to him though on coming back in and playing a significant part in the series.
I can’t see many changes, if any. I’d certainly start Dewi Lake and Tomos Williams though. I guess other changes depend on the fitness of Cuthbert and Adams. I would also change the bench, perhaps bring in a good ball carrier who weighs 120kg - no need to name names as I’ve banged on about it for long enough now.

Speaking of gems I don’t think anyone realised how good an international Tommy Reffell would become. I thought his chance might come in another year or 2, but now he is in I imagine he’ll be a mainstay.

I was especially pleased for Anscombe. Plenty of players have delivered more for Wales but there was something very sad about that awful injury he picked up before the World Cup. It's good he got fit enough to play a role in a famous victory for his side.

Defensively Reffell is spectacular. His line speed, tackling, jackal work, judgment of when to attack breakdowns and, the most easily overlooked, communication with his teammates is simply fantastic. Add in being about as fit as a rugby player can be and it's some combination defensively.

In attack he doesn't offer what someone such as Tipuric can but if he keeps offering what he does defensively he won't need to. He'll just need to keep hitting a mammoth number of rucks in attack and occasionally showing his decent handling as a support runner.

It will be a sad day as a Tigers fan if he needs to move on at the end of his current contract.

I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

Was Biggar taken off for an HIA or was he subed off.

It is hilarious to watch the response in the SA media from pundits, coaches etc. After the Wales loss, most talk about the continuity lost with making so many changes, but nobody is talking about the awfully limited game plan employed.

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

Old Man wrote:It is hilarious to watch the response in the SA media from pundits, coaches etc. After the Wales loss, most talk about the continuity lost with making so many changes, but nobody is talking about the awfully limited game plan employed.

It was always going to be the talking point if SA lost as it looked almost inevitable. Perhaps the thinking was to keep it tight and limit ambition as it gives the most opportunity for new combos to start to gel?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Old Man wrote:It is hilarious to watch the response in the SA media from pundits, coaches etc. After the Wales loss, most talk about the continuity lost with making so many changes, but nobody is talking about the awfully limited game plan employed.

It was always going to be the talking point if SA lost as it looked almost inevitable. Perhaps the thinking was to keep it tight and limit ambition as it gives the most opportunity for new combos to start to gel?

I don't know, for me it is papering over the cracks. Our gameplan since we came back from covid has been too conservative, this is now the fifth loss in the last 14 matches lost at the death because we don't try to put teams away when we are in the lead.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

British universities do offer sports scholarships. There's not as much money or publicity in them as American college sport of course but it is there.

Then there is Loughborough who basically offer talented sportsmen the chance to study at a high level whilst training, and in rugby's case playing, at close to professional standard. Their rugby program which allows players who don't quite make it through the academies to study whilst getting another bite at sport is absolutely fantastic.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

Dafydd Jenkins is doing a sports science degree with Exeter Uni.

king_carlos wrote:British universities do offer sports scholarships. There's not as much money or publicity in them as American college sport of course but it is there.

Then there is Loughborough who basically offer talented sportsmen the chance to study at a high level whilst training, and in rugby's case playing, at close to professional standard. Their rugby program which allows players who don't quite make it through the academies to study whilst getting another bite at sport is absolutely fantastic.

Yes there are some scholarships (I'm a lecturer/course leader at a Welsh uni so have some inside info!), but usually these don't cover the £30k course fees. Rather, they offer bursaries to help with the costs associated with juggling sport and studies. Loughborough's for example, is 'up to £5k' per year. Enough to cover some living expenses really. My point was that universities are not waving free fees under the noses of Welsh players to entice them over the border for higher education! They're going to uni anyway, sometimes in Wales and sometimes in England, without the need to wave anything!

I think the 'waving' bit LD referred to is the scholarships to private schools such as Millfield or Sedbergh. They're just more plentiful in England than in Wales so some of our players are picked up by the English system in this way. But rarely are they lost to Wales completely. I can't remember any Welsh born players turning out for England in recent years?

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

Dafydd Jenkins is doing a sports science degree with Exeter Uni.

LD, I expect the majority of the Wales squad is either doing or has done a uni degree. I used to work with the guy who was the WRU performance lifestyle manager and his role was all about getting the players to do qualifications and things on the side so that they have something to fall back on when they transition to civvie street. Not all do them, of course. But a good number. We've got a few with us doing the BSc Strength and Conditioning course as they want to go into training/coaching after rugby. They're not getting it for free though!

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

Dafydd Jenkins is doing a sports science degree with Exeter Uni.

LD, I expect the majority of the Wales squad is either doing or has done a uni degree.  I used to work with the guy who was the WRU performance lifestyle manager and his role was all about getting the players to do qualifications and things on the side so that they have something to fall back on when they transition to civvie street.  Not all do them, of course.  But a good number.  We've got a few with us doing the BSc Strength and Conditioning course as they want to go into training/coaching after rugby.  They're not getting it for free though!

OK, look, we have had this conversation before.

So wasn't it Porthcawl RFC he was playing for, and in and around Bridgend RFC ? Do you honestly think that he searched out Exeter Uni to do his degree ? surely you are not that naive ?

No Exeter RFC came along and offered the lot. He did not have to apply to Exeter Uni and get accepted, and he has all his tuition fees paid by Exeter RFC. Something that he really cannot turn down.

My daughter his doing her masters in sociology this is her fourth year, it costs me the best part of 15K a year by the time I've paid for her digs and uni fees. This is no small incentive for young men playing rugby who's parents do not have that extra money to burn.

So please do not tell me that they are not having anything fluttered to entice them to go to "certain" universities where there might conveniently be in the same area as a top flight rugby team.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

Dafydd Jenkins is doing a sports science degree with Exeter Uni.

LD, I expect the majority of the Wales squad is either doing or has done a uni degree.  I used to work with the guy who was the WRU performance lifestyle manager and his role was all about getting the players to do qualifications and things on the side so that they have something to fall back on when they transition to civvie street.  Not all do them, of course.  But a good number.  We've got a few with us doing the BSc Strength and Conditioning course as they want to go into training/coaching after rugby.  They're not getting it for free though!

OK, look, we have had this conversation before.

So wasn't it Porthcawl RFC he was playing for, and in and around Bridgend RFC ? Do you honestly think that he searched out Exeter Uni to do his degree ? surely you are not that naive ?

No Exeter RFC came along and offered the lot. He did not have to apply to Exeter Uni and get accepted, and he has all his tuition fees paid by Exeter RFC. Something that he really cannot turn down.

My daughter his doing her masters in sociology this is her fourth year, it costs me the best part of 15K a year by the time I've paid for her digs and uni fees. This is no small incentive for young men playing rugby who's parents do not have that extra money to burn.

So please do not tell me that they are not having anything fluttered to entice them to go to "certain" universities where there might conveniently be in the same area as a top flight rugby team.

Are you being serious? Exeter is one of the top unis in the UK for sports science. So if he wanted to study that subject then Exeter would have been on his radar.

The vast majority of students are self funding through student loans, etc. This lad could be getting his fees paid by Exeter rugby club, but I’ve seen no evidence of that. The number of players doing degrees would be pretty high, yet the numbers getting their fees paid by their club would, I imagine, be very low. Across the UK I reckon you could count them on one hand.

Any links to help us out here LD? You seem pretty sure that they offered him ‘the lot’.

Well I'm sorry Oracle, but you are very naive.

Look at the schools and colleges/universities:-

Hartpury
Millfield
Oakham
Clifton
Filton

Now look at the pro rugby clubs in said areas, then look at the Welsh players on said rugby clubs book and getting educated in the same universities.

I know this is a little old, but this story proves it's happening:-

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-chiefs-hit-back-strongly-13800820

Also, I am not knocking it, I think it's great these kids get opportunities in England that they would not get here in Wales.

You're getting your fee paying schools, FE colleges and universities mixed up again. That's all I'm correcting here. You don't seem to understand it, even though I've tried repeatedly. They are very different things and different age groups for a start.

Never mind.

The Oracle wrote:You're getting your fee paying schools, FE colleges and universities mixed up again.  That's all I'm correcting here.  You don't seem to understand it, even though I've tried repeatedly.  They are very different things and different age groups for a start.

Never mind.  

What does this mean then ?

They point to the large number of talented young Welsh players that are being lured across the border by free scholarships at English fee-paying schools and colleges - with 19 Welsh qualified players currently at one institution. wrote:

and this:-

“English fee-paying schools and colleges are offering free scholarships to our players.

“When you are offered a £35,000-a year private education for free, it’s hard for kids and their parents to say no and we totally understand that. wrote:

OK, last time then I'm out as I get the impression you're deliberately playing dumb to wind me up:

The fee paying schools are ones like Millfield, Sedbergh, Eton, Harrow, etc.  aka 'Posh schools'.  These are private schools that run from 2-18 (so school and 6th form), but are not university.  They are usually day or boarding schools.  These are the ones parents would bite your hand off to get there kids into as they churn out the next leaders of the world.

Filton college and Hartpury - these are just bog standard FE colleges. 16-19 sort of age.  They are no different to Coleg Gwent or Merthyr College or Cardiff and Vale College, etc.  They offer things like BTECs in sport, mechanics, etc.  A levels.  Confusingly, they do offer some Higher Education stuff (degrees) as they are franchised out from universities.  e.g. Coleg Gwent offers some degree programmes on franchise from University of South Wales.  Hartury offers some franchised from Gloucestershire Uni.  The only difference is that Filton and Hartpury have good rugby facilities.  But you don't go there to these colleges for the top level education.  They don't offer things like medicine, etc.

And then universities - these are only 18+.  You can't do A levels of GCSEs there. They are not fee paying schools (clue is in the title - school refers to education establishments for kids).  There are no kids there at uni.  It is only adult education.  Completely different from fee paying 'posh' boarding schools.  People attending the top fee paying schools will leave at 18 and, if they've done well at school, might go on to a university such as Oxford or Cambridge, UCL, etc.  Like BoJo did when he left Eton.

So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college.  You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc.  But not everyone can go to Millfield.  It costs a fortune.  But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do.   Millfield school fees are around £10k per year.  Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year.  The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families.  Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there!  They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

There are currently 8000 Welsh students studying in English universities.  Do you include that as being lured away?  It works the other way too with players such as Sam Underhill 'lured' to Wales to study and ending up at the Ospreys.  The point being that going away to uni is different from winning a place at a posh boarding school.  It's an important distinction.

Filton college and Hartpury - these are just bog standard FE colleges. 16-19 sort of age. They are no different to Coleg Gwent or Merthyr College or Cardiff and Vale College, etc. They offer things like BTECs in sport, mechanics, etc. A levels. Confusingly, they do offer some Higher Education stuff (degrees) as they are franchised out from universities. e.g. Coleg Gwent offers some degree programmes on franchise from University of South Wales. wrote:

You still need to pay to get this education. So who is paying ? I would wager the rugby teams in that area, otherwise, why are they not going to Coleg Gwent or Merthyr college ?

I am not playing dumb. Please do not insult, it shows the height of your intelligence.

You cannot tell me, that these kids, who are playing rugby to a high standard for their age, decide to go to the very university or college where a pro rugby team is then low and behold, they get into those schools and the rugby team.

Anyway, it's in the news article I posted. If you think the likes of Geraint John are wrong as well, then you need to take it up with him.

There are currently 8000 Welsh students studying in English universities. Do you include that as being lured away? It works the other way too with players such as Sam Underhill 'lured' to Wales to study and ending up at the Ospreys. The point being that going away to uni is different from winning a place at a posh boarding school. It's an important distinction. wrote:

Now you are just being ridiculous. Of course they are not all lured away. My daughter is in Bristol Uni. The only difference is, she had to apply, and then get accepted with the grades she got from her school.

These young kids already playing rugby, these are the ones that are targeted, the ones the scouts from England come over to watch, and if they show promise, they are in these schools without filling out an application. Low and behold they are then in the rugby team, who then go on to feed into the local professional team in that area.

But you would have us all believe that this just a lucky coincidence.

The Oracle wrote:So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college. You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc. But not everyone can go to Millfield. It costs a fortune. But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do. Millfield school fees are around £10k per year. Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year. The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families. Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there! They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

I know how much it is and how it works thanks. It is costing me the same to put my daughter through university. But what this has to do with youngsters being lured away from Welsh rugby I do not know.

Do not insult me? Says the guy who has called me naive twice!

I’ve never denied that there are kids getting scouted into the fee paying schools. Im just wanting you to acknowledge that there is a difference between fee paying schools and fe colleges and universities. Yes they all charge fees but ‘fee paying school’ is a specific term used only with private schools.

From what I’ve read Dafydd Jenkins got signed by Exeter in the first instance. He then chose to attend the local uni as they did the subject he wanted. I’ve seen nothing to say his club are paying his course fees. Similarly, we’ve had loads of U20s lads with us in recent years. I taught a few. None of these were having their uni course fees paid. Again, I’ve not heard of any clubs doing this in the Uk. Not saying it’s impossible but I’d like to see some evidence such as a news article or similar.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college.  You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc.  But not everyone can go to Millfield.  It costs a fortune.  But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do.   Millfield school fees are around £10k per year.  Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year.  The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families.  Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there!  They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

I know how much it is and how it works thanks. It is costing me the same to put my daughter through university. But what this  has to do with youngsters being lured away from Welsh rugby I do not know.

Again, you’re showing a lack of understanding. In my quote I’m talking about the fees for private schools. You’re talking about fees for university (adult education). Two very different things.

It has everything to do with it because it is the private school fees that people are being ‘lured’ with. So instead of going to their comprehensive school in Swansea they go to somewhere like Millfield instead. School being the operative word. This is different to students as adults choosing to go to uni in England because they like the look of an area, or they have signed for a team close by, or because they do a certain course they want to get onto.

Woahm this is huge. Does that mean that the WRU have tried to lure guys like Morgan, Donbrandt Underhill etc for years? Can't believe this. This is huge news that the WRu would do something so underhanded.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college.  You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc.  But not everyone can go to Millfield.  It costs a fortune.  But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do.   Millfield school fees are around £10k per year.  Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year.  The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families.  Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there!  They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

I know how much it is and how it works thanks. It is costing me the same to put my daughter through university. But what this  has to do with youngsters being lured away from Welsh rugby I do not know.

Again, you’re showing a lack of understanding. In my quote I’m talking about the fees for private schools. You’re talking about fees for university (adult education). Two very different things.

It has everything to do with it because it is the private school fees that people are being ‘lured’ with. So instead of going to their comprehensive school in Swansea they go to somewhere like Millfield instead. School being the operative word. This is different to students as adults choosing to go to uni in England because they like the look of an area, or they have signed for a team close by, or because they do a certain course they want to get onto.

Look, I understand what a school is.

How can I put this plainly. I do not care what type of school/uni/college it is !!!!! That is not the point.


The facts are, young Welsh rugby players are being lured to the "English education system"  With offers of free tuition and free scholarships. Something that the parents of said rugby players cannot pass up on.

I will say it again, there is nothing wrong here, and we can only be thankful, as for the parents it must be like winning the lottery for their child. But please stop telling me I am wrong for saying that it happens, I have backed myself up with an article from the national Welsh media outlet.

Also, you need to ask yourself, who pays for the digs that these kids stay in ? Who pays for their food, equipment, laptop and their living wage ?

The Oracle wrote:Do not insult me? Says the guy who has called me naive twice!

Because you are being naive. I am not being dumb.

The Oracle wrote:From what I’ve read Dafydd Jenkins got signed by Exeter in the first instance. He then chose to attend the local uni as they did the subject he wanted. I’ve seen nothing to say his club are paying his course fees. Similarly, we’ve had loads of U20s lads with us in recent years. I taught a few. None of these were having their uni course fees paid. Again, I’ve not heard of any clubs doing this in the Uk. Not saying it’s impossible but I’d like to see some evidence such as a news article or similar.

Are you being serious ?

I have posted a link to a news article, and I have quoted some of it on here for you.

It's not 'the national Welsh media outlet', it just claims to be. The Daily Express used to call itself 'the world's greatest newspaper', that wasn't true either.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Do not insult me? Says the guy who has called me naive twice!

Because you are being naive. I am not being dumb.

The Oracle wrote:From what I’ve read Dafydd Jenkins got signed by Exeter in the first instance. He then chose to attend the local uni as they did the subject he wanted. I’ve seen nothing to say his club are paying his course fees. Similarly, we’ve had loads of U20s lads with us in recent years. I taught a few. None of these were having their uni course fees paid. Again, I’ve not heard of any clubs doing this in the Uk. Not saying it’s impossible but I’d like to see some evidence such as a news article or similar.

Are you being serious ?

I have posted a link to a news article, and I have quoted some of it on here for you.

Dafydd Jenkins, LD. I want to see your proof that Exeter RFC are paying his uni fees. Stop ducking this.

Either they are and you have proof (e.g. a news article) or you just made it up. There is no in between.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not 'the national Welsh media outlet', it just claims to be. The Daily Express used to call itself 'the world's greatest newspaper', that wasn't true either.

Yeah, potatoes/patatoes

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college.  You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc.  But not everyone can go to Millfield.  It costs a fortune.  But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do.   Millfield school fees are around £10k per year.  Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year.  The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families.  Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there!  They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

I know how much it is and how it works thanks. It is costing me the same to put my daughter through university. But what this  has to do with youngsters being lured away from Welsh rugby I do not know.

Again, you’re showing a lack of understanding. In my quote I’m talking about the fees for private schools. You’re talking about fees for university (adult education). Two very different things.

It has everything to do with it because it is the private school fees that people are being ‘lured’ with. So instead of going to their comprehensive school in Swansea they go to somewhere like Millfield instead. School being the operative word. This is different to students as adults choosing to go to uni in England because they like the look of an area, or they have signed for a team close by, or because they do a certain course they want to get onto.

Look, I understand what a school is.

How can I put this plainly. I do not care what type of school/uni/college it is !!!!! That is not the point.


The facts are, young Welsh rugby players are being lured to the "English education system"  With offers of free tuition and free scholarships. Something that the parents of said rugby players cannot pass up on.

I will say it again, there is nothing wrong here, and we can only be thankful, as for the parents it must be like winning the lottery for their child. But please stop telling me I am wrong for saying that it happens, I have backed myself up with an article from the national Welsh media outlet.

Also, you need to ask yourself, who pays for the digs that these kids stay in ? Who pays for their food, equipment, laptop and their living wage ?

Jesus wept. I give up. Honestly, you’ve got to be the biggest WUM on these pages. I’m out.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Do not insult me? Says the guy who has called me naive twice!

Because you are being naive. I am not being dumb.

The Oracle wrote:From what I’ve read Dafydd Jenkins got signed by Exeter in the first instance. He then chose to attend the local uni as they did the subject he wanted. I’ve seen nothing to say his club are paying his course fees. Similarly, we’ve had loads of U20s lads with us in recent years. I taught a few. None of these were having their uni course fees paid. Again, I’ve not heard of any clubs doing this in the Uk. Not saying it’s impossible but I’d like to see some evidence such as a news article or similar.

Are you being serious ?

I have posted a link to a news article, and I have quoted some of it on here for you.

Dafydd Jenkins, LD. I want to see your proof that Exeter RFC are paying his uni fees. Stop ducking this.

Either they are and you have proof (e.g. a news article) or you just made it up. There is no in between.

When have I ever claimed this ?

I just said he was at Exeter Uni doing a sports Science course. How would I get the info you are after ?

Look, just because you have been shown up a little, there is no need for this. Just except, that perhaps I am right, and I have backed it up with a news article like you asked, we can move on.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:Do not insult me? Says the guy who has called me naive twice!

Because you are being naive. I am not being dumb.

The Oracle wrote:From what I’ve read Dafydd Jenkins got signed by Exeter in the first instance. He then chose to attend the local uni as they did the subject he wanted. I’ve seen nothing to say his club are paying his course fees. Similarly, we’ve had loads of U20s lads with us in recent years. I taught a few. None of these were having their uni course fees paid. Again, I’ve not heard of any clubs doing this in the Uk. Not saying it’s impossible but I’d like to see some evidence such as a news article or similar.

Are you being serious ?

I have posted a link to a news article, and I have quoted some of it on here for you.

Dafydd Jenkins, LD. I want to see your proof that Exeter RFC are paying his uni fees. Stop ducking this.

Either they are and you have proof (e.g. a news article) or you just made it up. There is no in between.

When have I ever claimed this ?

I just said he was at Exeter Uni doing a sports Science course. How would I get the info you are after ?

Look, just because you have been shown up a little, there is no need for this. Just except, that perhaps I am right, and I have backed it up with a news article like you asked, we can move on.

Twisting and turning like a fool now.

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:So the above distinction is important because absolutely anyone can go to Filton or Hartpury college.  You and I can go there and do courses if we want, subject to having a few GCSEs, etc.  But not everyone can go to Millfield.  It costs a fortune.  But they do offer scholarships in a different way to the FE colleges do.   Millfield school fees are around £10k per year.  Eton fees are £15k per term, so £45k for a year.  The cost to go to an FE college is much less and often free for poorer families.  Poorer families do not go to Millfield or Eton, nor is there government support to get families in there!  They are private and set their own admissions policies and fees.

I know how much it is and how it works thanks. It is costing me the same to put my daughter through university. But what this  has to do with youngsters being lured away from Welsh rugby I do not know.

Again, you’re showing a lack of understanding. In my quote I’m talking about the fees for private schools. You’re talking about fees for university (adult education). Two very different things.

It has everything to do with it because it is the private school fees that people are being ‘lured’ with. So instead of going to their comprehensive school in Swansea they go to somewhere like Millfield instead. School being the operative word. This is different to students as adults choosing to go to uni in England because they like the look of an area, or they have signed for a team close by, or because they do a certain course they want to get onto.

Look, I understand what a school is.

How can I put this plainly. I do not care what type of school/uni/college it is !!!!! That is not the point.


The facts are, young Welsh rugby players are being lured to the "English education system"  With offers of free tuition and free scholarships. Something that the parents of said rugby players cannot pass up on.

I will say it again, there is nothing wrong here, and we can only be thankful, as for the parents it must be like winning the lottery for their child. But please stop telling me I am wrong for saying that it happens, I have backed myself up with an article from the national Welsh media outlet.

Also, you need to ask yourself, who pays for the digs that these kids stay in ? Who pays for their food, equipment, laptop and their living wage ?

Jesus wept. I give up. Honestly, you’ve got to be the biggest WUM on these pages. I’m out.

And you will convince everyone on here that I am the problem. Oh well. lets just forget it.

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

The Oracle wrote:I think a better balance of the 60 cap rule is needed. Not sure how that would work, but certainly allowing Reffell and Rees-Zammit to continue at their current clubs would be ideal, rather than forcing them home. The issue of course is the precedent - and if they can do that then everyone else can pick up a big pay cheque elsewhere and the regions become empty. Such a hard balance to achieve. I don’t know the answer.

It also doesn't help that the youngsters get much more opportunities across the border. In Wales we just cannot give the kids the leg up that the English system can. When they get these scholarships fluttered in front of them they would be extremely foolish to turn them down. They are getting their higher education for free, and trust me, I know how much it costs.

I don’t think anyone is offering free uni places, LD. Certainly some private school education e.g. to Millfield or similar (up to A levels at 18). But not university. Any examples? There are a couple of boys at Exeter uni. No different than all the Welsh boys at the regions doing degrees in Cardiff and Swansea, etc.

Dafydd Jenkins is doing a sports science degree with Exeter Uni.

LD, I expect the majority of the Wales squad is either doing or has done a uni degree.  I used to work with the guy who was the WRU performance lifestyle manager and his role was all about getting the players to do qualifications and things on the side so that they have something to fall back on when they transition to civvie street.  Not all do them, of course.  But a good number.  We've got a few with us doing the BSc Strength and Conditioning course as they want to go into training/coaching after rugby.  They're not getting it for free though!

OK, look, we have had this conversation before.

So wasn't it Porthcawl RFC he was playing for, and in and around Bridgend RFC ? Do you honestly think that he searched out Exeter Uni to do his degree ? surely you are not that naive ?

No Exeter RFC came along and offered the lot. He did not have to apply to Exeter Uni and get accepted, and he has all his tuition fees paid by Exeter RFC. Something that he really cannot turn down.

My daughter his doing her masters in sociology this is her fourth year, it costs me the best part of 15K a year by the time I've paid for her digs and uni fees. This is no small incentive for young men playing rugby who's parents do not have that extra money to burn.

So please do not tell me that they are not having anything fluttered to entice them to go to "certain" universities where there might conveniently be in the same area as a top flight rugby team.

Proof needed please LD. Your words above. Own them.

In will drive to Exeter to ask him.

LordDowlais wrote:In will drive to Exeter to ask him.

Why do you need to ask him? You’ve just stated that they pay his fees. Or do you not actually know?! Just made it up?

How did a young lad playing for Porthcawl RFC not only end up playing for Exeter, but ends up going to Exeter Uni as well ?

He could have achieved all his rugby ambitions in Wales, but what could Exeter offer that no one in Wales could ?

Anyway, rather than stink the place out arguing over this, lets just move on

LordDowlais wrote: How did a young lad playing for Porthcawl RFC not only end up playing for Exeter, but ends up going to Exeter Uni as well ?

He could have achieved all his rugby ambitions in Wales, but what could Exeter offer that no one in Wales could ?

Anyway, rather than stink the place out arguing over this, lets just move on  

A sports science course in the top 10 (out of 80+) in the UK, for starters

Plus some people just want to move away for uni to experience a bit of independence and try something new. Exeter is an awesome place to study. Great city, based in Devon which is good for surfing, beaches, etc.

Agreed about moving on. Sorry everyone else, for detailing the thread. I know I shouldn’t respond but I just get sucked in

So, moving on. Anyone think we should make any changes for Saturday? Can’t remember about the injuries? Any of note? Biggar perhaps?

Is AWJ banned now having received 2 yellows on the bounce? Does that become a red, even if it was a poor call?

Biggar is struggling. Cuthbert is definitely out.

AWJ will be fine. I hope if Biggar doesn’t make it, that they don’t start AWJ to have a captain. We shall see.

Biggar and Lewis both looked hurt. Never thought I’d be hoping on Dillon Lewis’ fitness but here we are with the same old selection policy. It’s also not clear why Adams is so heavily strapped. Cuthbert confirmed as out. I wonder if North will be put back on the wing, not my call but we’re not passing it to him and trying to use Tompkins as a crash call option instead! There’s a chance Beard will be captain if Biggar is out.

Ah yeah, I forgot Lewis was in a sort of sling.

Sam Wainwright to start at TH then maybe if Dillon Lewis is out? Did well when he came on but a hell of an ask for a rookie to start against the Boks, away from home, in a series decider. And who would be bench TH? We’re burning through our tightheads lately.

I know Biggar has got on the wrong side of the ref and has perhaps cost us some points, and perhaps even the 1st test, but I think he has also rattled the Boks at times. Some of their players have talked about him being a real tough competitor and the heartbeat of the Welsh team almost. I think we lose that with Anscombe. But do we make up for it with more attacking prowess perhaps? Can Anscombe get the back line moving a bit more? As it has not been great this series. We’ve created little. Again, another big ask to change the way we play in a series decider when the Biggar run game has got us to this point. Could end up too loose and we become porous in defence and on the counter attack. The limited plan so far has at least kept things close.

I think the game will hinge on the fitness of Pollard, when he went off on Saturday it made a massive difference, if SA need to rely on Jantjies this weekend they could be in trouble, add to the fact that the game is in Cape Town and not at altitude could be a game changer.

Does anybody know if Pollard is fit for this weekend ?