England Autumn Internationals - MARK II

First topic message reminder :

England squad for autumn Tests:

Forwards: Jamie Blamire (Newcastle), Callum Chick (Newcastle), Jamie George (Saracens), Tom Curry (Sale), Trevor Davison (Newcastle), Nic Dolly (Leicester), Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins), Charlie Ewels (Bath), Ellis Genge (Leicester), Jonny Hill (Exeter), Maro Itoje (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton), Lewis Ludlam (Northampton), Joe Marler (Harlequins), George Martin (Leicester), Sam Simmonds (Exeter), Kyle Sinckler (Bristol), Will Stuart (Bath), Sam Underhill (Bath)

Backs: Mark Atkinson (Gloucester), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Tommy Freeman (Northampton), George Furbank (Northampton), Max Malins (Saracens), Jonny May (Gloucester), Raffi Quirke (Sale), Adam Radwan (Newcastle), Harry Randall (Bristol), Henry Slade (Exeter), Marcus Smith (Harlequins), Freddie Steward (Leicester), Manu Tuilagi (Sale), Joe Marchant (Quins), Ben Youngs (Leicester)

In Positions:
1.Marler, Genge
2.George, Blamire, Dolly
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Davison
4.Itoje, Hill
5.Lawes, Ewels
6.Curry, Martin
7.Underhill, Ludlam
8.Dombrandt, Simmonds, Chick

9.Youngs, Randall, Quirke
10.Smith

11.May, Radwan
12.Farrell, Atkinson
13.Tuilagi, Slade
14.Freeman, Marchant
15.Steward, Malins, Furbank
-------------------------------------------------
England v Tonga - 6th November
England v Australia - 13th November
England v South Africa - 20th November

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see people are asking for that South African Watergirl...physio whatever she is to stop running on the pitch randomly.

There several examples where she just ran on the pitch to celebrate a try before they had even scored...then she ran back off again....

Needs to stop immediately.

The AR should sort it. Unfortunately we can't go with the Hogg technique as nobody cares if you run into Petrus Du Plessis

Slade can be a frustration...

His moments of good play are often matched by moments of bad.

Ie Great vision and creativity putting people through gaps for tries etc...then you have several situations v Australia where he has the ball with half the pitch open to him and players outside...and he elects to run side ways, closing down all the space.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Based on the assumption that Smith is here to stay:

Do you not think that Farrell is the problem? He once posed a treat running good lines, even if they were not at speed, he doesn't do that any more, it is either kick or pass (slowly) and he is therefore predictable. Slade is taking man and ball with Farrell at 12, he showed on Saturday that with a 10 that can hold a defense or make it indecisive for a split second he can set up an attack that causes problems. Farrell's problem is that he has not shown that at either 10 or 12 for a very long time and we have looked stodgy as a result. Farrell suited Jones' kicking game, but he offers nothing to a running attack and I think anyone would have problems outside of him.

Slade also offers a left foot option at 12, unlike Farrell. Putting Farrell at 12 to Smiths 10 would be like having a sports car with the brake permanently stuck on, plenty of potential but little result.

I am not stuck on Slade, but I think Farrell is a possible bencher to steady the side down, I do not see what he brings to the starting 15 with Smith at 10. I would not be against trying alternatives to Slade, Dingwall at Saints springs to mind, but I am sure we have other younger players that can do the job at other clubs.

The day of the back that does not have power or pace is, I think gone, the game has moved on.

I would have gone with Farrell on the bench, and there are going to be days when his kicking game could be crucial, but I am beginning to wonder if he casts too large a shadow on the rest of the team.

If not him then we do need a backup plan for the day when Smith actually gets caught. Can Malins fill in the gap? Do we bring Ford back in? Who is next on the conveyor belt? (Nobody rates Umaga yet and Simmonds J does not seem to be in form)

GeordieFalcon wrote:I see people are asking for that South African Watergirl...physio whatever she is to stop running on the pitch randomly.

There several examples where she just ran on the pitch to celebrate a try before they had even scored...then she ran back off again....

Needs to stop immediately.

Yeah, it's all getting a bit too much. Never seen someone come on from the side like that before (with the exception of the Wales game). Too many support staff from all sides hanging out in the in goal area too.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still want Slade out of the team. And Quirke in. Fingers crossed Borthwick starts picking vP and forces Jones' hand.

Malins had a really good game. As May had his worst even counting his broken nose!

I know the feeling on here tends to be Youngs = bad even when he plays well but nothing in the AIs is suggesting he'll be dropped. He actually played well and a bit more attacking play suited him. 

I think Quirke looks like his successor but there's a good chance whilst Youngs is performing to give Quirke 30 mins a game in the second half whilst it's breaking up in the 6N. Get him settled into international rugby and then you give Youngs next summer off and Quirke the starts. Competition resumes for the AIs and the man in form takes the shirt.

Re the Farrell conversation I'm hoping that won't be a factor at the start of the 6N and then we can just run with it thereafter. Ford off the bench would offer significantly more than Farrell. If Slade, Marchant and Malins are in the 23 it's fairly easy to cover most of the backline and make room for two specialist flyhalfs, particularly if they are both still in great form. Competition is good for pushing performance. Slade I'm willing to give another chance mainly due to a lack of good centre options, Dingwall looks just a little short of international quality as does Lawrence. Kelly and Ojomoh both look a little raw but should come good in time for the post RWC rebuild.

lostinwales wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Based on the assumption that Smith is here to stay:

Do you not think that Farrell is the problem? He once posed a treat running good lines, even if they were not at speed, he doesn't do that any more, it is either kick or pass (slowly) and he is therefore predictable. Slade is taking man and ball with Farrell at 12, he showed on Saturday that with a 10 that can hold a defense or make it indecisive for a split second he can set up an attack that causes problems. Farrell's problem is that he has not shown that at either 10 or 12 for a very long time and we have looked stodgy as a result. Farrell suited Jones' kicking game, but he offers nothing to a running attack and I think anyone would have problems outside of him.

Slade also offers a left foot option at 12, unlike Farrell. Putting Farrell at 12 to Smiths 10 would be like having a sports car with the brake permanently stuck on, plenty of potential but little result.

I am not stuck on Slade, but I think Farrell is a possible bencher to steady the side down, I do not see what he brings to the starting 15 with Smith at 10. I would not be against trying alternatives to Slade, Dingwall at Saints springs to mind, but I am sure we have other younger players that can do the job at other clubs.

The day of the back that does not have power or pace is, I think gone, the game has moved on.

I would have gone with Farrell on the bench, and there are going to be days when his kicking game could be crucial, but I am beginning to wonder if he casts too large a shadow on the rest of the team.

If not him then we do need a backup plan for the day when Smith actually gets caught. Can Malins fill in the gap? Do we bring Ford back in? Who is next on the conveyor belt? (Nobody rates Umaga yet and Simmonds J does not seem to be in form)

A think a lot of us have been saying this for a while, Farrell is holding us back. He's often shoehorned in, usually upsetting the balance. I honestly don't see how he gets back into this side without disrupting it yet again. The only reason I could see him getting back in is leadership and goal kicking....and Smith is a better goal kicker.

It's hardly surprising that we look a force in attack as soon as Farrell is out and we get forced into a balanced backline. We've been screaming out for Marchant in the centers as he offers a running threat....he was fantastic.

I'm not fully convinced with Slade but he looked much more at ease with two running threats either side of him and no Farrell dominating possession.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still want Slade out of the team. And Quirke in. Fingers crossed Borthwick starts picking vP and forces Jones' hand.

Malins had a really good game. As May had his worst even counting his broken nose!

I know the feeling on here tends to be Youngs = bad even when he plays well but nothing in the AIs is suggesting he'll be dropped. He actually played well and a bit more attacking play suited him. 

I think Quirke looks like his successor but there's a good chance whilst Youngs is performing to give Quirke 30 mins a game in the second half whilst it's breaking up in the 6N. Get him settled into international rugby and then you give Youngs next summer off and Quirke the starts. Competition resumes for the AIs and the man in form takes the shirt.

Re the Farrell conversation I'm hoping that won't be a factor at the start of the 6N and then we can just run with it thereafter. Ford off the bench would offer significantly more than Farrell. If Slade, Marchant and Malins are in the 23 it's fairly easy to cover most of the backline and make room for two specialist flyhalfs, particularly if they are both still in great form. Competition is good for pushing performance. Slade I'm willing to give another chance mainly due to a lack of good centre options, Dingwall looks just a little short of international quality as does Lawrence. Kelly and Ojomoh both look a little raw but should come good in time for the post RWC rebuild.

You'll be surprised to hear that I'm not a huge Youngs fan, but I think he was generally ok in the AI. Smith's snappy distribution seems to balance out Youngs slow and his kicking has usually been pretty good.

I feel much more at ease with Youngs knowing Quirke will overtake him at some point soon.

It's still chalk and cheese in terms of passing when Quirke comes on. Just highlights that area of Youngs game even more. His kicking started off well below par on Saturday. My issue with Youngs is similar to my issue with Lawes in the back row and Daly at full back. I know full well why they are there in at least the strengths they can off but I prefer other strengths offered to a greater extent by others.

I think most of us have been on the same page re: Farrell. I think certainly based on his performance in this autumn series Smith has earned his place and is his to lose. Was great to see an overall threat at standoff with a backline that can move too. Farrell is too experienced to be put in the dumper and, frankly, if Smith gets injured and if Ford is not in the squad, then what? Does beg the question: whither Ford?

I was also on the let's drop Slade bandwagon. But I think he earned another opportunity to show whether his form is on/off or due to a different game plan and other players in the back line. Not that Eddie Jones is calling me for advice and Slade was probably going to be starting in the Six Nations regardless. But now he has my endorsement.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's still chalk and cheese in terms of passing when Quirke comes on. Just highlights that area of Youngs game even more. His kicking started off well below par on Saturday. My issue with Youngs is similar to my issue with Lawes in the back row and Daly at full back. I know full well why they are there in at least the strengths they can off but I prefer other strengths offered to a greater extent by others.

His first couple of kicks at the weekend were iffy but after that he was very good off the boot. That grubber that had WLR taking it back over the line with Steward chasing was really nice. His control in the first half took a lot of pressure off of Smith. His passing is never going to be lightening but it was still good enough to see us going forward though you could see his annoyance at the forwards running lines close to the line which maybe suggests that the attacking plan might improve again (fingers crossed).

I'd not put Youngs in the Daly camp. Daly is a talented player shoehorned into a position that made him a liability. Youngs is a good scrum half, not the best but for many years the best all rounder England have had. Youngs would have been in three consecutive Lions squads had he not pulled out the last two. Quirke looks likely to overtake him there which is a good sign for England. You want the young guys coming through and pushing the older guys out in that organic fashion. Youngs will be 33 at the next world cup, not too old for a 9 at a world cup but you'd hope we'd have some more options by then starting with Quirke and then hopefully JVP next year (he's getting there just needs some more experience).

The thing with Youngs is he's usually a 6/10 kind of scrum half with the odd game pushing 7 or 8. EJ just hasn't seem fit to (or hasn't wanted to take the risk/hasn't rated) try somebody else incase he was perhaps a 3 or 4/10.

Youngs has been the default because EJ can generally rely on him to put in a decentish performance

It's just his passing and dithering. Youngs when he's at his best is all about the breaks but when I look at the others now, Quirke vP and Randall, they're all better there and their passing is superior. And it's the pass I look for first and foremost.

Id like to see

Smith
Slade
Marchant

Have a run out in the 6n.....

And Eddie has said that he sees Slade as his outside centre. Back to numbers of backs though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's just his passing and dithering. Youngs when he's at his best is all about the breaks but when I look at the others now, Quirke vP and Randall, they're all better there and their passing is superior. And it's the pass I look for first and foremost.

I suspect that's where Eddie would disagree with you, he likes to see more game management which is what probably did for Care and Robson and has limited Randall so far.

As Sgt says Youngs is the reliable option. He's probably gone from his 6/10 to a 7/10 this Autumn.

Game management too often I think refers to kicking the leather off it.

Back to the pack getting somewhat mullered - accepting we were on 3rd and 4th choice hookers, we did have both first choice props (even if Marler didn't start and had been on sick leave). Is the issue the second row, and in particular Itoje?

Don't get me wrong, Maro is a hell of a player, but at 1.97m and 115 kg he's a big athlete rather than a monster guy like Etzebeth or de Jager (6cm and 9 cm taller and 7 and 10 kg heavier respectively) , so he's not going to provide the same power in the set pieces and maul as the big Boks. He's big and good enough against everyone else, but perhaps we need to accept that when SA can put out such big guys (and rotate the entire front row with no drop in quality, and arguably an improvement), we are going to come off second best in the physical battle.

Anyway, England did brilliantly to win, showing that taking the opportunities is vital - SA wasted two good try scoring chances (Malins tackle on the line and Kolisi not making his pass to the winger) and missed 2 reasonably straightforward kicks that would have changed the result.

SH - since Care got the boot nobody has actually come close to Youngs. We can argue about the likes of Mitchell not getting a chance but Robson looked average at best.

Its hard, at least for me, to quantify what makes Quirke look different but he does. It may be unfair on Randall but Quirke seems to be the natural successor, at least until JVP gets up to speed.

Marchant. Compare and contrast with Lawrence, who was probably unlucky about when he was playing for England but in my mind never really looked the part. Lawrence is very young though. Very glad Marchant got a chance to show what he can do even if it was for the worst of reasons.

dummy_half wrote: Is the issue the second row, and in particular Itoje?

Don't get me wrong, Maro is a hell of a player, but at 1.97m and 115 kg he's a big athlete rather than a monster guy like Etzebeth or de Jager (6cm and 9 cm taller and 7 and 10 kg heavier respectively) , so he's not going to provide the same power in the set pieces and maul as the big Boks. .

i do think its something that the management team have to allow for...BUT i do think the Bok pack is unique in its size and only really NZ match in terms of size...Brodie is 6'9 and massive and Whitelock is 6'8...but they are ageing now.

Against most of the other teams i dont think Itojes size is a problem. His partner in the engine room is an issue though.

Hill has shown glimpses of improvement...but hes no Kruis or Launchbury. I still say we need a monster in there alongside Itoje...but one who is a beast in the nitty girtty set pieces etc.

dummy_half wrote:Back to the pack getting somewhat mullered - accepting we were on 3rd and 4th choice hookers, we did have both first choice props (even if Marler didn't start and had been on sick leave). Is the issue the second row, and in particular Itoje?

Don't get me wrong, Maro is a hell of a player, but at 1.97m and 115 kg he's a big athlete rather than a monster guy like Etzebeth or de Jager (6cm and 9 cm taller and 7 and 10 kg heavier respectively) , so he's not going to provide the same power in the set pieces and maul as the big Boks. He's big and good enough against everyone else, but perhaps we need to accept that when SA can put out such big guys (and rotate the entire front row with no drop in quality, and arguably an improvement), we are going to come off second best in the physical battle.

Anyway, England did brilliantly to win, showing that taking the opportunities is vital - SA wasted two good try scoring chances (Malins tackle on the line and Kolisi not making his pass to the winger) and missed 2 reasonably straightforward kicks that would have changed the result.

Boks have to up their efficiency, execution and skillset on attack, Nienaber is basically one year behind where he wanted to be due to no rugby last year.

Boks are slowly starting to play with more possession and going wide more often, but their skillset and execution is not there yet. If they can add value to that they can become formidable.

GF
Agree that it's a Springbok-only problem, as we don't seem to get overpowered by the All Blacks forwards as a collective even if their second rows are bigger than ours (NZ front row is good but no better than our first choices). Of course Itoje brings a lot around the park, playing almost like another blindside in the loose.

I'm a huge fan of Launchbury, but obviously his inclusion weakens the line-out (even if it strengthens the team elsewhere). Kruis is probably the best set piece 2nd row we've had since Johnno, but that highlights what we are missing - an absolute animal in the Martin Johnson mould.

lostinwales wrote:SH - since Care got the boot nobody has actually come close to Youngs. We can argue about the likes of Mitchell not getting a chance but Robson looked average at best.

Its hard, at least for me, to quantify what makes Quirke look different but he does. It may be unfair on Randall but Quirke seems to be the natural successor, at least until JVP gets up to speed.

Marchant. Compare and contrast with Lawrence, who was probably unlucky about when he was playing for England but in my mind never really looked the part. Lawrence is very young though. Very glad Marchant got a chance to show what he can do even if it was for the worst of reasons.

I know what you mean, Quirke just seems to have 'it'. He had taken to international rugby naturally and fearlessly, I look forward to watching him for many years to come. I believe JVP will get there too, but (and I could be wrong) his game doesn't seem to be as based around the dynamism and eye catching moments as Quirke's. He seems like a more calm/ considered player, the two will dovetail nicely in my opinion.

There is still a chance for Randall (and indeed Mitchell) to be around the squad because injuries do happen, hopefully it will spur them on to improve their games because they've both had a taste of international rugby now. Either way, that is four potentially good to potentially brilliant options for England who are 24 or under. There could be others coming up through the ranks too.

Old Man

Do you think it's just a case of the players needing to practice the skills a bit more, or perhaps a need to change one or two of the players, especially in the back line?
I know you were without Faf at scrum half, but his strengths are box kicking and being an annoying little b*&ger rather than great service to set the backs off. Is he your near future, or is it time to move on
Centre combination a bit too similar in being big powerful north-south runners?

Wingers generally looked good, especially when you get Kolbe back, but is Steyn really still your second best full back?

A rarity these days: a video looking at factors deciding the match which doesn't blame the officials.

dummy_half wrote:Old Man

Do you think it's just a case of the players needing to practice the skills a bit more, or perhaps a need to change one or two of the players, especially in the back line?
I know you were without Faf at scrum half, but his strengths are box kicking and being an annoying little b*&ger rather than great service to set the backs off. Is he your near future, or is it time to move on
Centre combination a bit too similar in being big powerful north-south runners?

Wingers generally looked good, especially when you get Kolbe back, but is Steyn really still your second best full back?

I won't change our midfield, Am has shown with little opportunity he has deft skills with offloads making space etc.

If you look at our tries in the 2019 final, both was him creating tries, also during the RC he made some good tries, with round the back offloads etc.

Our problem this season has been Pollard, and Willie. Willie has lost his creative edge, he was always seen as our playmaker, well he hasn't made any plays this year.

Pollard has been very poor this year, doesn't attack the line, is too lateral, and his cross kicks haven't come off this season. His goal kicking has been inferior too many times this season.

Example, the first test vs Australia we scored three tries to nil, Pollard missed ten points and we lost the match in the final minute, with Cooper having the perfect day with the boot.

Another reason oour backline attack isn't working is slow ruck ball, only around 25% of our rucks produce ball in less than three seconds, and it isn't due to our forwards, our halfbacks have been poor.

9, 10 and 15 needs to improve.

DeAllende, Am, Nkosi, Mapimpi, Kriel and Kolbe are top class.

dummy_half wrote:GF
Agree that it's a Springbok-only problem, as we don't seem to get overpowered by the All Blacks forwards as a collective even if their second rows are bigger than ours (NZ front row is good but no better than our first choices). Of course Itoje brings a lot around the park, playing almost like another blindside in the loose.

I'm a huge fan of Launchbury, but obviously his inclusion weakens the line-out (even if it strengthens the team elsewhere). Kruis is probably the best set piece 2nd row we've had since Johnno, but that highlights what we are missing - an absolute animal in the Martin Johnson mould.

Yes but going forward we'll have Jack Willis hopefully back, George Martin, Ted Hill, Dombrandt, Tom Willis, Isiekwe.....

So there are players coming through with genuine size and lineout ability....its a question of getting the right 8 on the park...

Further down the line....we have some big units at lock coming through aswell...Bristol alone have 2 in Alex Groves and the massive Ben Bamber (20 year old, 6'9, 20+ stone ex Huddersfield rugby league) , Saracens have Cameron Boon who is 6'10 (has represented Ireland and England age groups) and theres others.....so there are plenty to keep an eye on post world cup......

Cumbrian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:SH - since Care got the boot nobody has actually come close to Youngs. We can argue about the likes of Mitchell not getting a chance but Robson looked average at best.

Its hard, at least for me, to quantify what makes Quirke look different but he does. It may be unfair on Randall but Quirke seems to be the natural successor, at least until JVP gets up to speed.

Marchant. Compare and contrast with Lawrence, who was probably unlucky about when he was playing for England but in my mind never really looked the part. Lawrence is very young though. Very glad Marchant got a chance to show what he can do even if it was for the worst of reasons.

I know what you mean, Quirke just seems to have 'it'.  He had taken to international rugby naturally and fearlessly,  I look forward to watching him for many years to come.  I believe JVP will get there too, but (and I could be wrong) his game doesn't seem to be as based around the dynamism and eye catching moments as Quirke's.  He seems like a more calm/ considered player, the two will dovetail nicely in my opinion.  

There is still a chance for Randall (and indeed Mitchell) to be around the squad because injuries do happen, hopefully it will spur them on to improve their games because they've both had a taste of international rugby now.  Either way, that is four potentially good to potentially brilliant options for England who are 24 or under.  There could be others coming up through the ranks too.

We have young Blackett...who could be very special.....AND hes a goal kicker....one for post 2023....

Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

That would have turned a very good kick into one that would play in highlight reels for a very long time.

I think if everyone was fit we could pick a beefy pack but whether we want to is another matter: e.g.

Marler
LCD
Sinckler
Launchbury
J.Hill
Itoje
Curry
Dombrandt or BVP

this would be 3 or 4 line-out options (excluding Curry) and I have not included Kruis

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

cb wrote:I think if everyone was fit we could pick a beefy pack but whether we want to is another matter: e.g.

Marler
LCD
Sinckler
Launchbury
J.Hill
Itoje
Curry
Dombrandt or BVP

this would be 3 or 4 line-out options (excluding Curry) and I have not included Kruis

Don't forget Kruis is expected back from Japan pretty soon.

Afro wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

It's within the vid above by Rugby Fan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Afro wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

It's within the vid above by Rugby Fan.

Didn't even spot that. Must look harder!!!!

Thanks 7.5

https://www.ruck.co.uk/he-tried-to-take-him-out-eben-etzebeths-dirty-hit-on-englands-marcus-smith/

Someone else did spot this then.

To be fair, while it looks bad I managed to freeze it on the point of contact and the arm starts around the shoulder and slides up. It looks bad, but wouldn't merit a card.

The knee drop at the end, on the other hand, should have been a straight red. Player is already down and there is no mitigation for going in like that.

Afro wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

At the 1:35 minute mark in the video just above. Malins was outside the 22 when he kicked, so the 50-22 wasm't on.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Afro wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

At the 1:35 minute mark in the video just above. Malins was outside the 22 when he kicked, so the 50-22 wasm't on.

He only needs to be within his own half not his own 22.

Don't see much badly wrong with the Etzebeth tackle on Smith. Should have been a penalty, as it ended as a high tackle, but nothing more.

Thought Kolisi's one was legitimately a yellow to the letter of the law, but was definitely closer to no card than to a red. He was a bit reckless to try to challenge for that ball when Marchant was clearly going to beat him by a lot, but it was more a misjudgement than done with intent.

Steyn was however a very lucky boy t not be red carded for the knee drop onto Smith. Very surprised the ref and TMO didn't take more of a second look.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Afro wrote:

dummy_half wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wanted to mention as well the moment of the match for me, despite the lovely strike move for Quirke was first half when Malins comes across covering a kick and in one movement kicks it clear into touch. That was classy.

Pity it didn't go 3 m further and also benefit from the 50-22 rule, but yes it was very well executed.

Can anyone find a video of it? I only watched the highlights I found online (as I was actually at the Principality with some Aussie friends!)

At the 1:35 minute mark in the video just above. Malins was outside the 22 when he kicked, so the 50-22 wasm't on.

Kick from your own half going out inside the attacking 22 is the rule. Wonder how much of a difference it will make playing in Joburg - with the altitude, a good kicker could be going 22 to 22, so potential for quite a few attacking line outs.

dummy_half wrote:Don't see much badly wrong with the Etzebeth tackle on Smith. Should have been a penalty, as it ended as a high tackle, but nothing more.

Thought Kolisi's one was legitimately a yellow to the letter of the law, but was definitely closer to no card than to a red. He was a bit reckless to try to challenge for that ball when Marchant was clearly going to beat him by a lot, but it was more a misjudgement than done with intent.

Steyn was however a very lucky boy t not be red carded for the knee drop onto Smith. Very surprised the ref and TMO didn't take more of a second look.

Intent has not been part of the protocol for several years - certainly since the Jared Payne / Alex Goode incident in what, 2013 or 2014?. What's considered is:

- Were you in a realistic position to contest the ball? This has nothing to do with whether you are looking at the ball or not. Refs these days are judging it on whether you get hands on or at least near the ball
- Do you make contact in the air?
- How does the other player land?
- Does the tackler do anything to mitigate - e.g. try to get the player down safely?

For Kolisi: no, nowhere near the ball (and neither was Etzebeth later on); yes; head down with only his arms to break the fall (which refs have been discounting for card purposes for a couple of seasons now); nothing.

It should have been a red. It was reckless and highly dangerous, with no realistic claim to be a credible contest for the ball. Etzebeth's was much less dangerous, but still a clear penalty - although he gets closer in height, he's still nowhere near contesting the ball.

I hope Steyn gets cited. It was cynical, dangerous and unnecessary and should have been called out by the TMO.

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.ruck.co.uk/he-tried-to-take-him-out-eben-etzebeths-dirty-hit-on-englands-marcus-smith/

Someone else did spot this then.

You can't tell for certain without the other angles but there doesn't appear much wrong with that bar poor technique and his arm may end up over the shoulder so penalty at most.

Probably only a pen - but the issue was they never even looked at it ...

Rugby Fan wrote:A rarity these days: a video looking at factors deciding the match which doesn't blame the officials...

I think it helps that the video is by a neutral NZer, and I like NZ analysis of non-NZ games! And to be fair to the South Africans I'm not seeing anything from their team, press or general fans to suggest they think the ref was out to get them. I've read more critiques of their lack of discipline rather than the refs awarding of penalties. It's only that TAS Analytics 'Analysis' (and what I assume are their most blinkered fans responding to it) that are having a whinge, and I wouldn't be entirely surprised if they put that out as click-bait.

I think some fair points in this video, though a little overstating the conclusions. The critique of them kicking when in a good position to run was completely correct, but demonstrating the overlaps didn't really capture the cover England had out back, so not by any means 'that should be a try'. And of course the final 'what happens when they don't kick' was when England were down to 14 men and were missing that cover. I'd also add that if you rerun that move 10 times you might get 10 tries, but not all for SA. Steward was a fraction of an inch away from intercepting that and running off to the other end of the pitch. So, totally right to criticise unnecessary kicking in good attacking positions, but I suspect that on most occasions SA would have made a bit of ground rather than scored a try.

Heaf wrote:Probably only a pen - but the issue was they never even looked at it ...

They didn't stop the game to review but the TMO may have checked it in the background and decided there wasn't enough in it to get the ref to bring it back for a penalty.

I was thinking about which Players would be in the squad for the 6ns? would the like's of Manu, Owen Farrell, Johnny May did not have a great game on Saturday

How many of the team that p[played in the AI will still be there in the 6ns?.

Watson ruptured his ACL so I can't really see May being dropped until when Watson returns at the very earliest. He's the only experienced back three player left standing at the moment. I'm still hoping Nowell can make a return though.

As is often the case I think a lot of the question marks in the squad will be around injuries. When might Farrell and Manu be fit? Can Willis get back before or during the Six Nations?

Slade and Marchant should be penned into at least the training squad as centres. If Farrell and Manu are both out we will need new centres in the squad though. Lawrence? Odogwu getting fit? Dan Kelly was capped in the summer? Dingwall and Ojomoh are rated?

If Farrell misses the start of the Six Nations I'd guess Ford will be recalled for the bench but then I wasn't expecting us to go into two games this Autumn with only 1 fly-half in the 23 and we did. It just feels a massive risk having Malins, Furbank or Slade covering fly-half though. It also places even more pressure on Smith. I think he's a special player but all players have bad games and if you can't sub your 10 during one it's not an ideal place to be for the player or team.

majesticimperialman wrote:I was thinking about which Players would be in the squad for the 6ns? would the like's of Manu, Owen Farrell, Johnny May  did not have a great game on Saturday

How many of the team that p[played in the AI will still be there in the 6ns?.

Harsh on Manu, who did everything that could have been asked on him in the 3 minutes before he broke. If he's fit then he should be involved - though I did think that the Smith - Slade - Marchant axis deserves more game time.

Farrell, I think, will have to fight his way back into the squad and may have to accept a bench spot. May had a quiet autumn but I think deserves another shot. I'd expect to see all of them back in the training camp (assuming Manu and Faz can get fit in time), but by no means should that guarantee a place in the matchday squad.

The shackles are off England's attack and I think even Eddie realises it's too late to go back.

We'll see how bad Manu is. You almost have to accept the worst but it didnt seem too bad at the time. I don't know if we'll ever see Nowell for England again, which will be a shame, but he's made from the same stuff as Manu or so it seems (Big Joe too).

Daly is out. Watson I believe is out for the season, and it seems Radwan has 'stuff to work on' so we may be down to May, Malins and Marchant to cover the wings anyway - with an outside chance for Lynagh. I don't think May was as bad as has been made out, just the two howlers were very public and he didn't get much chance to get his hands on the ball otherwise.