The 606v2 Selected World XV

Well, here's your World XV......

1. Joe Marler
2. Malcolm Marx
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Maro Itoje
6. Pieter Stephanus du Toit
7. Tom Curry/Michael Hooper
8. Duane Vermeulen

9. Antoine Dupont
10. Finn Russell

11. Damian Penaud
12. Damian de Allende
13. Lukhanyo Am
14. Cheslin Kolbe
15. Stuart Hogg


1. Loose-Head Prop https://www.606v2.com/t70475-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-1-loose-head-prop
2. Hooker https://www.606v2.com/t70476-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-2-hooker
3. Tight-Head https://www.606v2.com/t70477-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-3-tight-head-prop
4/5. Locks https://www.606v2.com/t70478-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-4-5-locks
6. Blindside https://www.606v2.com/t70481-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-6-blindside-flanker
7. Openside https://www.606v2.com/t70484-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-7-openside-flanker
8. Number 8 https://www.606v2.com/t70485-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-8-number-8

9. Scrum Half https://www.606v2.com/t70488-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-9-scrum-half
10. Fly Half https://www.606v2.com/t70490-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-10-fly-half
11. Winger https://www.606v2.com/t70492-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-11-winger
12. Inside Centre https://www.606v2.com/t70495-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-12-inside-centre
13. Outside Centre https://www.606v2.com/t70498-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-13-outside-centre
15, Full Back https://www.606v2.com/t70499-the-best-3-players-in-the-world-by-position-the-world-class-45-15-full-back

That's quite a side. And no New Zealanders in it all all. Obviously a reflection of their current form, but presumably also to do with how well they gel to make a better team overall.

Wales would smash that team!

Also, no All Blacks? Surprised.

Without being facetious here, but can anybody tell me what some of these players have achieved in 2021 to deserve being on there ?

I might be one eyed here, but no Welsh players ? At least Wales as a team won the 6N last year. I can understand the South Africans being on there, but no All Blacks ? Come on V2.

Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

I would Also put LRZ in there as well. Looking through the polls some of the choices are a bit, well, unfair. How does Ntamak get into the top 3 fly halves ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

That's fair enough. AWJ was on the list, he received 2 votes and Itoje 8.

LordDowlais wrote:I would Also put LRZ in there as well. Looking through the polls some of the choices are a bit, well, unfair. How does Ntamak get into the top 3 fly halves ?

I provided the options obviously.

Ntamak is outstanding, happy to stand by that selection. It's all opinions end of the day, nobody is more/less right.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

That's fair enough. AWJ was on the list, he received 2 votes and Itoje 8.

I think thats more down to the 606V2 population than anything else, but hey ho.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

That's fair enough. AWJ was on the list, he received 2 votes and Itoje 8.

I think thats more down to the 606V2 population than anything else, but hey ho.

No doubt and that AWJ appears to be quite marmite on here.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I would Also put LRZ in there as well. Looking through the polls some of the choices are a bit, well, unfair. How does Ntamak get into the top 3 fly halves ?

I provided the options obviously.

Ntamak is outstanding, happy to stand by that selection. It's all opinions end of the day, nobody is more/less right.

Yep, I'm not disputing his ability, but he hasn't really achieved anything over the past 12 months to be considered, at least Finn Russell got into the Lions squad, but again, what has he achieved ? Hogg as well. All good players, but they havent really done anything of note.

But as you have said, it's all opinions, nobody is more/less right.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

That's fair enough. AWJ was on the list, he received 2 votes and Itoje 8.

It would seem that Itoje has one more win over SA than AWJ does this last year.

LRZ is a fine player with a lot of talent but he's very much a work in progress and it's not his fault he has been riding the hype train so very hard. He might well get on a list like this in a couple of years but he really doesn't belong there this time.

What do you want them to achieve LD? Ntamack isn't exactly going to make the Lions squad lol.

To counter somewhat.....What has LRZ achieved?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What do you want them to achieve LD? Ntamack isn't exactly going to make the Lions squad lol.

I know, thats why I used Hogg and Russell in my analogies.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To counter somewhat.....What has LRZ achieved?

Well, he won the 6N with Wales for a start, scoring some beautiful tries in the process, the one against Scotland being a beauty. But as I have said, he won the 6N with Wales which is a lot more than others on your list.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What do you want them to achieve LD? Ntamack isn't exactly going to make the Lions squad lol.

I know, thats why I used Hogg and Russell in my analogies.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To counter somewhat.....What has LRZ achieved?

Well, he won the 6N with Wales for a start, scoring some beautiful tries in the process, the one against Scotland being a beauty. But as I have said, he won the 6N with Wales which is a lot more than others on your list.

That's a team award though, not an individual accolade. He also failed to get into a single Lions test side (or even squad for that matter) when directly put up against his British & Irish peers.

I think Adams has a fair case to be in this side, but I can't see how LRZ would be.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

Lol

I look at this exercise by Pooly as looking over the last two seasons (and if tied, further back) and deciding who you would want starting entering 2022. The Wales argument I get but it really depends on how you view 2021:

Glass half full - Wales had a poor 2020 and they came back in 2021 to win 4 of the 6 T1 (I am only including RC and 6N sides other than Italy) games they played with a full line-up. Even the two losses were close with one in the final minute and a key opportunity ruined by a Wales fan. Managed a comeback draw against Argentina in Argentina with a weakened line-up as well. Spent much of the year without a number of key players including North, L Williams, T Williams, Faletau, Tipruric and Owens.

Glass half empty - 3 of the 4 T1 wins had a red card in Wales's favour and were won by a total of 7 points, discipline luck that is unlikely to consistently repeated and can't be attributed to a particular player. The remaining win against England had two controversial try decisions in Wales's favour. The other T1 games played with weakened line-ups include beatings from NZ and Argentina. Four wins, one draw and four losses (without caveats) is indicative of an average side. Many of the key injured players have miles on the clock and are likely in the last two years of their international careers (North, Faletau, AWJ, Owens, Tipruric, Lydiate and Halfpenny (last two have probably finished)).

Which Wales players do you reward beyond Wyn Jones and Adams who came close? Is the argument that LRZ is so clearly a top two winger in the world over Kolbe, Koroibeite, Penaud, Ioane, Jordan, DVDM, Adams? A broken AWJ who had an average 2020 and a good 2021 6N before dropping back due to injury is clearly ahead of Etzebeth, Itoje, Mostert, Retallick, Whitelock, Beirne? At the point that Pooly is looking at, the margins are subjective at positions that have abundant talent at the top like TH, lock, flankers and wings.


NZ probably have the most players in the top 3 or also in the running. R Ioane, B Barrett and A Savea probably have the biggest argument for inclusion but this was not a vintage year for NZ. Would have found a spot for Ioane (over Kolbe) and B Barrett (over Russell or Hogg). Smith and Savea are first on my subs bench.

I think you’d be hard pressed to find any Welsh fans who truly believe any of our players are the number 1 best players in the world in their positions right now. My post was in jest, where I suggested Wales would smash that team! I hoped that was obvious by my inclusion of the laughing and ‘leg it’ emoticons!

I’ve got no issues with no Wales player in the team above. I can’t honestly make an argument for any of them above those who were shortlisted. As mentioned above, some are excellent on their day. Some are ones for the future. No one is even in the running for no1 in the world right now though. A couple of top 5s at best. A few years back we might have been able to claim Biggar in the top 3 perhaps, but his crown has slipped to somewhere around his ankles. Gareth Davies and Rhys Webb in their pomp were up there with the best no 9s in my opinion. George North at one time. Jonathan Davies too. Liam Williams. AWJ. Faletau. Tipuric perhaps. But not now, today, which is what this section was meant to be. And even back when they were in better form there were still a lot of other good contenders so they only really enter a ‘top 5’ or ‘top 3’ argument in the past.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

Lol

He played number 8 & is retired now but Id still have him there

Great job SGT Pooly, these lists are subjective at best, but a fun exercise as long as one does not take it too serious.

Personally I would put Kitshoff at loose head, he has been phenomenal all year. Won't have PSDT or Kolbe in the team as they have played very little test rugby this year.

At nine would select Aaron Smith every day of the week, I realise there are new kids on the block, but for me Smith is still the best all round nine. Dupont is a great player, but is he the best nine?

For me Jordie Barrett has had a great year at 15.

It might be interesting to see who people think would be in a World XV in 18 months' time as we go into RWC prep...

Poorfour wrote:It might be interesting to see who people think would be in a World XV in 18 months' time as we go into RWC prep...

I think it is very difficult to find objectivity amongst international player assessments.

There are so many factors that influence these votes.

Personal bias.
Which tournaments do you have a vested interest in, and which teams do you follow avidly?
There are players nominated that you may not have seen much of during a season.
Do you assess a player on talent only or his ability to fulfil his role?
Which team does he play for, a team that wins 75% of their matches, or one that doesn't, how does that influence our perceptions?
What is the game plan his team plays?

Just an example, Bryan Habana has around a 60% conversion rate for tries, but when you break down his career, he scored 30 tries under Jake White in four seasons, then only 10 tries under Pieter de Villiers in four years, then 34 under Heyneke Meyer in four years.

Game plan and coach can impact a player for the good or the worst.

Old Man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It might be interesting to see who people think would be in a World XV in 18 months' time as we go into RWC prep...

I think it is very difficult to find objectivity amongst international player assessments.

There are so many factors that influence these votes.

Personal bias.
Which tournaments do you have a vested interest in, and which teams do you follow avidly?
There are players nominated that you may not have seen much of during a season.
Do you assess a player on talent only or his ability to fulfil his role?
Which team does he play for, a team that wins 75% of their matches, or one that doesn't, how does that influence our perceptions?
What is the game plan his team plays?

Just an example, Bryan Habana has around a 60% conversion rate for tries, but when you break down his career, he scored 30 tries under Jake White in four seasons, then only 10 tries under Pieter de Villiers in four years, then 34 under Heyneke Meyer in four years.

Game plan and coach can impact a player for the good or the worst.

Not sure about the bit in bold. Maybe a bit. But 606v2 is probably 99% UK and Ireland posters yet we’ve chosen a world 15 with 7 Boks, a potential Ozzie and 2 Frenchmen. And even with that I think Joe Marler is lucky to be voted best LH in the world so perhaps another SA player, as you suggest Old Man I think that’s therefore fairly balanced for a predominantly NH forum and perhaps a bit surprising. I wonder if this poll was run in SA or NZ would it be a similar result? Or would more SA and NZ players be chosen over England, Ireland and French players? Do SH fans watch as much NH rugby as NH fans watch the SH? Or are we just more open minded up here?!

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It might be interesting to see who people think would be in a World XV in 18 months' time as we go into RWC prep...

I think it is very difficult to find objectivity amongst international player assessments.

There are so many factors that influence these votes.

Personal bias.
Which tournaments do you have a vested interest in, and which teams do you follow avidly?
There are players nominated that you may not have seen much of during a season.
Do you assess a player on talent only or his ability to fulfil his role?
Which team does he play for, a team that wins 75% of their matches, or one that doesn't, how does that influence our perceptions?
What is the game plan his team plays?

Just an example, Bryan Habana has around a 60% conversion rate for tries, but when you break down his career, he scored 30 tries under Jake White in four seasons, then only 10 tries under Pieter de Villiers in four years, then 34 under Heyneke Meyer in four years.

Game plan and coach can impact a player for the good or the worst.

Not sure about the bit in bold.  Maybe a bit. But 606v2 is probably 99% UK and Ireland posters yet we’ve chosen a world 15 with 7 Boks, a potential Ozzie and 2 Frenchmen. And even with that I think Joe Marler is lucky to be voted best LH in the world so perhaps another SA player, as you suggest Old Man I think that’s therefore fairly balanced for a predominantly NH forum and perhaps a bit surprising.  I wonder if this poll was run in SA or NZ would it be a similar result?  Or would more SA and NZ players be chosen over England, Ireland and French players? Do SH fans watch as much NH rugby as NH fans watch the SH? Or are we just more open minded up here?!

On The Roar over various discussions the Aussies reckon Tupou, Hooper, Cooper and Kerevi are world class and should be in the team of the year. They carry much value of Cooper and Kerevi's performances vs SA during the RC. Granted the second test they beat us well, but it was by far our worst match of the year, and valuing that one performance over the rest of their season is unrealistic when considering they played at home for the most part, the Kiwi's rate Aaron Smith, Ricky Ioane and Jordie Barrett for World xv, but there isn't much consensus amongst them.

Plus there is a tendency to rate any AB's because they are AB's when in reality they do not have a god given right to be the best in the world even if the team is the most consistent.

Old Man wrote:

The Oracle wrote:

Old Man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:It might be interesting to see who people think would be in a World XV in 18 months' time as we go into RWC prep...

I think it is very difficult to find objectivity amongst international player assessments.

There are so many factors that influence these votes.

Personal bias.
Which tournaments do you have a vested interest in, and which teams do you follow avidly?
There are players nominated that you may not have seen much of during a season.
Do you assess a player on talent only or his ability to fulfil his role?
Which team does he play for, a team that wins 75% of their matches, or one that doesn't, how does that influence our perceptions?
What is the game plan his team plays?

Just an example, Bryan Habana has around a 60% conversion rate for tries, but when you break down his career, he scored 30 tries under Jake White in four seasons, then only 10 tries under Pieter de Villiers in four years, then 34 under Heyneke Meyer in four years.

Game plan and coach can impact a player for the good or the worst.

Not sure about the bit in bold.  Maybe a bit. But 606v2 is probably 99% UK and Ireland posters yet we’ve chosen a world 15 with 7 Boks, a potential Ozzie and 2 Frenchmen. And even with that I think Joe Marler is lucky to be voted best LH in the world so perhaps another SA player, as you suggest Old Man I think that’s therefore fairly balanced for a predominantly NH forum and perhaps a bit surprising.  I wonder if this poll was run in SA or NZ would it be a similar result?  Or would more SA and NZ players be chosen over England, Ireland and French players? Do SH fans watch as much NH rugby as NH fans watch the SH? Or are we just more open minded up here?!

On The Roar over various discussions the Aussies reckon Tupou, Hooper, Cooper and Kerevi are world class and should be in the team of the year. They carry much value of Cooper and Kerevi's performances vs SA during the RC. Granted the second test they beat us well, but it was by far our worst match of the year, and valuing that one performance over the rest of their season is unrealistic when considering they played at home for the most part, the Kiwi's rate Aaron Smith, Ricky Ioane and Jordie Barrett for World xv, but there isn't much consensus amongst them.

I have no real quibble with any selections we made.   I simply think we are more liable to vote for players we see more rather than less.  Normal, eh?  

For the Aussies, I still have not seen Tupou dominate a game.  Dominate collisions he does for fun, but not matches.  So I can't vote for him.  Hooper and Cooper (a law firm?) and Kerevi are close, but for me, no cigar.  Aaron Smith is class and deserves mention.  But in the year of Dupont, everyone is second best.  Maybe next year is different.  For me Ioane is close (Penaud?).  But Jordie Barrett is not.  When good, he can also dominate, but I have seen him take parts of matches off, though not to the same degree as his brother.

Hazel Sapling wrote:I look at this exercise by Pooly as looking over the last two seasons (and if tied, further back) and deciding who you would want starting entering 2022. The Wales argument I get but it really depends on how you view 2021:

You're pretty much right Hazel. I never said it was a team of 2021, just players I rate as world class (which makes it even more ambiguous!). PSDT is a good example.....not a stellar year, but for me (big for me there) he's in the top 3 blindsides in world rugby. Same for Barrett, Vermeulen etc really.

I imagine a team of 2021 would be quite different.....as would a team of 2022. Hopefully once we get back to a bit of normality a form team will be easier to do.

All you can do is lay out your reasons for the picks. There was no set guidance so it will differ from poster to poster whether it be form, reputation or whether they play for a team who has benefitted from playing 14 men a few times.

It has been a bizarre few tournaments though with no fans or reduced capacities. I can't see the 6 Nations being untouched, and we already have the France thing on vaccinated players.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Which Welsh player would you swap in LD?

AWJ for Itoje for starters. I would also put a few All Blacks in there.

Very good threads Pooly - well done.

Merci George.......even a few sweaty socks in there for you.

The Oracle wrote:I think you’d be hard pressed to find any Welsh fans who truly believe any of our players are the number 1 best players in the world in their positions right now.  My post was in jest, where I suggested Wales would smash that team!  I hoped that was obvious by my inclusion of the laughing and ‘leg it’ emoticons!  

Saw someone talking about taking AWJ over Itoje and that LRZ should be there (I think LD). Wasn't in response to yours Oracle

Think it was a great set of threads Pooly and probably a good time to do them mid-way between the RWC cycles.

Whilst my team (Scotland) has 10 and 15 in there, I do worry about the lack of mentions we got in the forwards (Watson was maybe the only one I think). The front five's typically decide a game and the sides that got plenty of mentions in NZ, England, France, Ireland and SA are top of the tree because of it.

Thanks Hazel, I put a lot of thought into it believe it or not! Maybe I'll do a team of the year next time as 'world class" is a difficult one to pull off (I think this is what Pete did actually).

It would be good to see similar threads for the leagues perhaps....it's a good discussion.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Merci George.......even a few sweaty socks in there for you.