Glasgow and Edinburgh 28 and Counting - The banter goes on!

First topic message reminder :

28 and counting, where do we get the energy!

Another Glasgow re-signing coming up this afternoon, following on from the White Rhino, the animal theme is hinted at again. Who could that be?

Ancient history:

https://www.606v2.com/t70348p1000-glasgow-and-edinburgh-unceasing-banter-thread-27#4033843

funnyExiledScot wrote:Ah Jimbo my old chum, too much Malbec! Aren't you reaching the age where trickle down means something quite different??

Nicely played Glasgow. I'm a fair man and that's a handy result and, by all accounts, performance. I was out last night but have it recorded and will take a look this evening.

Howdy old Timer. It's well worth watching. I was very surprised to see on Glasgow's FB that the possession stat was 50/50. It really didn't look like that at the time.

Here's another one; apparently Tom Jordan played 12 in all the pre-season training session until the last two when he was moved to 10. He looks more natural at 10 than a certain long lanky mustachioed pretender I could mention.

And no...I haven't trickled down for several weeks now.

I'm not sold on Kinghorn at 10 either. The raw ingredients are there for a terrific attacking fly half but I question whether he'll ever be able to control a game at the highest level. Still, I think he's better that Jaco so he should get plenty opportunities to prove us wrong.

Jordan looks worth sticking with on what I've seen so far.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW wrote:Well that's a crap result

This is what Glasgow fans must feel like. Awful.

You get used to it .

It's why we're so god damned funny.

Good to see you smiling GC.

Hornito's dummy on the Blues' backline (yes all of them) was so outrageous that watching live I just gasped. Watching it the next day all I could do was giggle. But no trickle down, thankfully.

Rumours of Javen Sebastian and Ashman moving to Edinburgh next season as replacements for Nel and Mcinally

Good replacements if true

RDW wrote:Rumours of Javen Sebastian and Ashman moving to Edinburgh next season as replacements for Nel and Mcinally

Good replacements if true

Ashman definitely needs to move, he is just not getting the game time he needs at Sale and he will be a good addition to Edinburgh, McInally seems to spend a lot of time on the treatment table these days.

Whenever I have seen JS play, he seems half decent as well and this has surely got to be Nelly's last season, he will retire (probably move to coaching) after the WC.

Ashman is only 22 - a baby in front row terms. It's not doing him too badly to get 20-25 minutes or so off the bench for a lot of the season (which seems to be what Sale do with him just now).

Come WC time and beyond though I'm sure he'll be looking to make himself a regular starter.

Ashman is only 22 - a baby in front row terms. It's not doing him too badly to get 20-25 minutes or so off the bench for a lot of the season (which seems to be what Sale do with him just now).

Come WC time and beyond though I'm sure he'll be looking to make himself a regular starter.

That Patrick Harrison seems very promising for Edinburgh as well, you would like to see him get a pro contract at some stage this year as well. That would be 2 good young hookers going forward for Edinburgh.

Glasgow could maybe use a bit of reinforcement in that area as well. Fraser Brown is coming to the end of his days to and Turner not so far behind him. We could also do with a promising youngster to come through.

Freddy Owsley has left Edinburgh. Shows how little he played that I completely forgot about him in my summary of Edinburgh wingers earlier!

He actually looked a decent player but just had too much competition. Such is the life of a pro rugby player on the fringes.

Shame about Owsley. Top end pace is a rarity these days but with Duhan coming back there little in the way of opportunity. Scotland 7s could have used him if he was SQ.

Before McInally got injured he did show a glimpse of his old self in the last game. Perhaps it's my advancing years, but I do root for players like Ritchie Gray, McInally, Brown and Duncan Taylor making a glorious last hurrah of the next WC. All top class players who, in my opinion, left something on the table in terms of international rugby.

Owsley is SQ and has been with the 7s squad already!

That's not got a good future either given the home nations will be competing as Team GB over the next few years now.

Pity. Clearly has some potential but hard for him with Duhan, Hoyland, Boff and Graham on the scene.

Its frustrating that these players are told to come play club rugby in Scotland so they can put themselves in the shop window only to be starved of opportunity because the clubs bring back current Scotland international players.

To be honest I rather favour the policy of canny NSQ recruitment mixed with developing academy players. Just looking back to when Glasgow won the pro... 14? That was a fantastic group of U20s mixed with some up and coming Fijian players. I understand from a commercial viewpoint in recruiting Duhan. Stick him on a poster on game day and people watch. However what I don't get is buying Scottish players and bringing them back because they just happen to be free agents not because they're actually required. Why not let them flourish or fail elsewhere where there's more room for them to? It's not good for the long term success of the club or player development at the individual or club level.

The trouble with that is at this point in the early season, not many clubs will have budget for recruiting am expensive winger! So Duhan could have seen time either doing nothing or the SRU could pick him up to make sure he is good for 2023 (which is the sole focus now, for good or ill).

To be fair, Owsley had his chsnces. But did not really take them. The match he started. He dropped pretty much every ball that came his way, you suspect he was an athlete trying to be a rugby player.

He was a punt and there was probably a reason he did not make it at Bristol before he came up North.

It is a hard old game pro sport unfortunately and only the best really do make it.

Glasgow Warriors squad to travel to South Africa

Forwards: Lewis Bean, Jamie Bhatti, Fraser Brown, Gregor Brown, Scott Cummings, Jack Dempsey, JP du Preez, Matt Fagerson, Zander Fagerson, Angus Fraser, Thomas Gordon, Richie Gray, Oli Kebble, Sintu Manjezi, Johnny Matthews, Nathan McBeth, Alex Samuel, Lucio Sordoni, George Turner, Sione Vailanu, Murphy Walker, Ryan Wilson.

Backs: Sebastian Cancelliere, Jamie Dobie, Cole Forbes, George Horne, Sam Johnson, Tom Jordan, Stafford McDowall, Josh McKay, Domingo Miotti, Ali Price, Ollie Smith, Kyle Steyn, Ross Thompson, Sione Tuipulotu.

Well Glasgow heading down to SA pretty much fully loaded, even taking along a couple of walking wounded, Keeble and Dempsey, maybe they are hopeful they might be fit for the second game.

Dobie seems to be back to fitness and Ollie Smith and Ross Thompson, who have both had a run out in the Super 6 should be ready to go as well. Good to see Alex Samuel in the squad as well, I wonder if he might make a debut down there.

No Huw Jones yet, so you would imagine he won't be playing for Scotland this autumn but he did get interviewed at the weekend and said that his injury is essentially healed now, he is just doing the appropriate conditioning to get back to match fitness now. He should hopefully be back in December. Luckily with Tuipoloti playing so well at 13, he has not really been missed.


I still think a few of them will fly home after the first game.

Rory Sutherland is travelling with Ulster to SA for their fixtures. Nice way to make his Ulster debut. Who was the last Scottish forward to turn out for an Irish side? Surely not Nathan Hines?

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallagher-premiership-worcester-warriors-murray-mccallum-talks-to-rugbypass/


A little insight into how Murray Mccallum is doing and feeling atm.

Good luck to him in his search for another contract, he certainly deserves one.

It is a good read BG and certainly McCallum is good enough to be playing professional club rugby. The problem is where has the capacity for him? I would argue Edinburgh could use him and the article does suggest he has not fallen out with the SRU. At 26, he is still young for a prop and a rotation of him, Sebastian and De Bruin next year would not be financially crippling.

With Wasps also looking down the barrel, there is the potential of Hislop and McDonald needing to find a landing spot. They have a youth player listed as Scots as well. Hislop might fit into a LH rotation for next year at Edinburgh with Schoe away for the first half but struggle to see where McDonald would fit in Scotland.

McDonald has been playing very well for Wasps so far this season, holding down a starting spot. I would be very happy to see him back at Glasgow, he is a better player than Bean and with RG maybe moving on again, he has been linked with a move back to France, maybe that is a role he could fill, but it may not happen till next season unfortunately.

I feel a little less confident for Hislop unfortunately, who is that bit closer to the end of his career, but may be some WC cover would work for him.

The problem for these players and MM is to keep themselves playing and fit this season so they can be in the shop window for when new contracts do start to come up. Unfortunately for some of them, not playing again this season will likely end their careers.

BigGee wrote:https://www.rugbypass.com/news/gallagher-premiership-worcester-warriors-murray-mccallum-talks-to-rugbypass/


A little insight into how Murray Mccallum is doing and feeling atm.

Good luck to him in his search for another contract, he certainly deserves one.

100%. Scotland cannot afford to loose a talented young prop. Definitely good enough for a pro side.

Very dominant from Edinburgh

Graham, Boff, DVDM is some back three and they all scored!

Bit like Glasgow though, not going to make much of an impression on the league without some away form.

Glasgow and Edinburgh are very very yo-yo these days.

That was a whooping! Just wait until Goosen is fit, he’s an incredible winger. Hopefully Edinburgh can use that win as a platform to launch a good run of games into the international period. Amazing work by Graham to get his second try. Great to see that old warthog Nel fly over the ruck for a try too.

That was a pumping!

Agreed that pumping Treviso doesn't count for much if we can't win away from home or against slightly difficult teams.

Edinburgh were terrific in the second half. Just need to find that illusive consistency. Haining a justified MOTM. Cracking shift. Graham once again was lightening and I thought Bennett was also very good, as was Crosbie.

Pyrgos at 9 still bugs me, and although Mata was good, we're not seeing those offloads these days.

I also watched Glasgow. No shame in losing to that side, especially after they offloaded a world class bench full of Boks. Gordon was great, and I thought Jordan gave things a good go.

I'm a big Crosbie fan. He's so powerful in the contact and drives his legs to get a few more meters. He's a poacher and a lineout option too. Very much in the 6.5 mould.

Pretty competition in the backrow in Edinburgh never mind Scotland but he's going to be a great option for both!

Also, how bloody good is Mark Bennett!

[quote="RDW"]I'm a big Crosbie fan. He's so powerful in the contact and drives his legs to get a few more meters. He's a poacher and a lineout option too. Very much in the 6.5 mould.

Pretty competition in the backrow in Edinburgh never mind Scotland but he's going to be a great option for both!

Also, how bloody good is Mark Bennett![/quote]

Surely ahead of Harris by now. Defensively solid, with more attacking threat and an experienced international.

Great performance by Edinburgh, some really nice tries! Lovely to see Nel still enjoying himself out there. He'll be a great technical coach if he chooses that path.

Glasgow actually looked better than the scoreline suggested, to be fair the sharks just blew them away more than them playing particularly badly. This said they really missed fagerson I think, I've never seen an 8 fall off as many tackles as Wilson did. Flappy arms every time!

Will Bennett really get a nod over Harris?

We all know Toonie loves Harris but also imagine if Harris is on the bench and you need him to come on and change a game. Not sure he’s an impact sub. I can see Harris starting with Bennett on the bench.

Also Redpath is getting some good game time in.

Options at 12 and 13 this AI series

Beleive it or not, our old friend Matt Scott had an excellent game for Leicester todsy and was nany peoples choice for MoM sgaibst Quins.

We really do have a lot of good and in form centres available for Scotland atm. Almost to many and to much choice if such a thing is possible, some good ones are going to miss out for sure.

Toonie does need to pin his colours to the mast though.

Harris is the one player he has stuck to through thick and thin, so hard to see him budging from thst really. You always imagine thst he wsnts the ball playing Redpath as his 12 as well and he would be well established now if not for injury.

Bennett may still end up being the bench option baring injury but we will see soon enough i guess.

At least this autumn with 4 games and one for Scots based players only, a few may get their chsnce to put down a marker

How about this for a Scottish based 23 for the Aussies

1 Schoeman
2 Turner
3 Fagerson
4 Gilchrist
5 Cummings
6 Ritchie
7 Watson
8 Fagerson

9 Price
10 Kinghorn
11 VDM
12 Johnson
13 Bennett
14 Graham
15 Smith

Subs - Bhatti, Cherry, Walker, Skinner, Haining, Horne, Thompson, Tuipolotu

That's no bad side though i think Nelly might bench over Walker who is still pretty green.

Maybe Dempsey in there?

He was not included in the Australian squad!

Nel actually played really well at the weekend, although it wasn't exactly the most intense of games. He could defintiely do a job for Scotland 15 minutes off the bench.

I was thinking recently I'm actually a bit worried about Hamish Watson and whether his body is still up to it - he was made roadkill by that young Saffer and went off injured.

i'd happily see Crosbie or Tom Gordon getting a good run in the AIs instead.

I am sure they are keeping WP going to get him through to the WC, after which he will likely retire.

Our depth at TH is the complete opposite to that at centre where it drops off a cliff after Zander and Nelly. That is probsbly the biggest worry in the whole squad.

If Wstson is injured or lacking form, then look out for Richardson at OS this autumn, who has been playing very well, though the other 2 mentioned have been putting in a good claim as well.

Surely we will be seeing the squad at some point this week?

After zander and nelly is the next cab off the rank maccalum or seabass? Both would do a job I think, might struggle against top tier scrummaging teams like South Africa or Ireland... oh dear

On the basis that MM is not even playing any rugby atm you would have to say Seabass

After that, probably looking at Rae, or switching Ollie Keeble to TH again

Why are crowds so poor for Edinburgh and Glasgow?

PhilBB wrote:Why are crowds so poor for Edinburgh and Glasgow?

Largely because rugby is not that popular in Scotland. Especially in Glasgow, very much a football city with 2 clubs that pull in crowds of 50 000

Warriors have actually done an awful lot to put rugby on the map in Glasgow but it remains a minority sport. At their pesk, they were selling out Scotstoun regularly. 7500 or so. It's dripped off a bit now, but could lokely get bsck to thst with Glasgow being more competitive and better marketting. The ground and its favilities remain very poor and i say that as a Glasgow fan.

BigGee wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Why are crowds so poor for Edinburgh and Glasgow?

Largely because rugby is not that popular in Scotland. Especially in Glasgow,  very much a football city with 2 clubs that pull in crowds of 50 000

Warriors have actually done an awful lot to put rugby on the map in Glasgow but it remains a minority sport. At their pesk, they were selling out Scotstoun regularly. 7500 or so. It's dripped off a bit now, but could lokely get bsck to thst with Glasgow being more competitive and better marketting. The ground and its favilities remain very poor and i say that as a Glasgow fan.

Thanks, I appreciate it's a soccer city but is rugby still very much a public schoolboy game in Scotland? I saw some tweet on the weekend from a Scottish rugby journalist where he noted some schoolboy tournament had only one state school entrant.

Yes, it is still very much a private school game. The borders being the exception to that and that is why Edinburgh is probably more of the rugby city due to its concentration of rugby playing private schools.

Thses schools have good rugby setups, often with ex professional players as the coaches. They also offer scholatships to promising players and quite a few good players have come through that route.

Outside of that though, the state sector is struggling with all sports, not just rugby and it is largely left to the clubs to bring players through.

The rugby player base in Scotland is tiny and a lot of clubs are really struggling now, they were before covid, which has just made things even worse.

BigGee wrote:Yes, it is still very much a private school game. The borders being the exception to that and that is why Edinburgh is probably more of the rugby city due to its concentration of rugby playing private schools.

Thses schools have good rugby setups, often with ex professional players as the coaches. They also offer scholatships to promising players and quite a few good players have come through that route.

Outside of that though, the state sector is struggling with all sports, not just rugby and it is largely left to the clubs to bring players through.

The rugby player base in Scotland is tiny and a lot of clubs are really struggling now, they were before covid, which has just made things even worse.

It seems to have been this way for as long as I can remember. I guess it won't ever change.

Ahead of Saturday’s (22 October, KO 3.05pm UKT) game at Ellis Park Stadium against the Emirates Lions in Round Six of the BKT United Rugby Championship, Glasgow Warriors provides the following squad update.

Rufus McLean, Sean Kennedy and Euan Ferrie will all link up with the squad in Durban later today ahead of Saturday’s game.

A small number of players landed in Scotland today to begin preparations for Scotland’s upcoming Autumn Nations Series fixtures.

The remaining squad will continue to train in Durban until Friday ahead of Saturday’s game in Johannesburg.



The club has also issued the following injury update:

Kyle Steyn and Rufus McLean have both recovered from their respective hamstring injuries and have returned to full training.

Matt Fagerson and Sebastián Cancelliere have both recovered from illness after withdrawing late from Saturday’s game against the Sharks and also return to full training.

Jack Dempsey (rib) will be looking to reintegrate with the squad later this week.

Tom Jordan, Fraser Brown, George Turner and Richie Gray all left the field on Saturday with head injuries and have begun to work through the return to play protocols. Max Williamson also continues to work through the return to play protocols.

Sam Johnson will undergo surgery this afternoon on a facial injury sustained against the Sharks on Saturday.

Thomas Gordon sustained a calf injury on Saturday afternoon and is expected to be out until December.

Allan Dell is now expected to be out until the new year with an ongoing calf injury.

Enrique Pieretto (shoulder) and Rory Darge (ankle) both continue their rehabilitation for their respective injuries.

Ally Miller (back) and Huw Jones (back) have both begun their integration back into team training. Duncan Weir (hamstring) will also look to return to play this weekend.

Sounds like Glasgow took a bit of a battering against the Sharks and a few players going to be having some time out.

A particular shame for Tom Gordon who would surely have been close to the Scotland squad with the form he has been showing. He and Sam Johnson look like they might be missing the AIs now.

With the injuries and the players who have flown home, my guess that would include Price, Fagerson Z and Cummings, we are going to have a significantly weaker side against the Bulls this weekend.

PhilBB wrote:

BigGee wrote:

PhilBB wrote:Why are crowds so poor for Edinburgh and Glasgow?

Largely because rugby is not that popular in Scotland. Especially in Glasgow,  very much a football city with 2 clubs that pull in crowds of 50 000

Warriors have actually done an awful lot to put rugby on the map in Glasgow but it remains a minority sport. At their pesk, they were selling out Scotstoun regularly. 7500 or so. It's dripped off a bit now, but could lokely get bsck to thst with Glasgow being more competitive and better marketting. The ground and its favilities remain very poor and i say that as a Glasgow fan.

Thanks, I appreciate it's a soccer city but is rugby still very much a public schoolboy game in Scotland? I saw some tweet on the weekend from a Scottish rugby journalist where he noted some schoolboy tournament had only one state school entrant.

Ah yes but that was Rob Robertson from the Daily Fail, who isn't fron the top drawer of rugby journalism. The tournament organisers (a mega posh private school....) Replied saying there were actually 4 state schools in the tournament.

The point still stands though - state school rugby has been in decline since I was playing it. And that was 20 years ago.

I went to a state school with strong rugby heritage but I've recently heard they have a new head mistress who is actively anti rugby. She has said it's a private school sport and they should focus on football instead.

RDW wrote:

Ah yes but that was Rob Robertson from the Daily Fail, who isn't fron the top drawer of rugby journalism. The tournament organisers (a mega posh private school....) Replied saying there were actually 4 state schools in the tournament.

The point still stands though - state school rugby has been in decline since I was playing it. And that was 20 years ago.

I went to a state school with strong rugby heritage but I've recently heard they have a new head mistress who is actively anti rugby. She has said it's a private school sport and they should focus on football instead.

Agree on Robertson

I wonder what state Scottish rugby will be in come 10 years' time. It seems to be heavily propped up now by an exile's programme.

To be honest, that has pretty much always been the case.

Scotland has a very small playing base and a big diaspora. London Scottish have provided more Scottish internationals than any other club.

None of his is new and it is hard to see it changing, the professional rugby climate is getting harder not easier. An expansion in Scotland is still just a pipe dream.

It's the nature of Scotland as a country, there's often a push to emigrate and see the world when you are young and folk often travel but end up settling down abroad - doesnt make them or their kids any less scottish, its often up to the individual.

It's also worth a chuckle or two when you see an Ozzie or all blacks side that feature players such as Angus Scott-Young, Fraser McReight, Jake McDermott, Angus Bell or Finlay Christie. Those names juxtaposed against their respective accents should spin the head of those who see nationality purely as a place of birth or blood and disregard those who make their home elsewhere or who have parents and grandparents who make a point of telling their kids "our home is here but it can also be There".

However, we very much have failings in our sports systems in Scotland. We end up with some elite level athletes and sport stars but the playing base, not just for rugby but sports in general, is shocking. Having a disproportionate level of high end athletes can often mask over systemic failings at grassroots sports levels.

BigGee wrote:To be honest, that has pretty much always been the case.

Scotland has a very small playing base and a big diaspora. London Scottish have provided more Scottish internationals than any other club.

None of his is new and it is hard to see it changing, the professional rugby climate is getting harder not easier. An expansion in Scotland is still just a pipe dream.

My point was more about the diaspora. Is that still going to be a significant thing in the future? Most of those players will be dual qualified so, by definition, you'd think the ones who choose Scotland are those who can't get a game elsewhere.