DP World Tour chat

As Pedro says, there isn’t a thread for this so I thought I’d start one (sticky, please?).

A great British Masters tournament and fantastic to see Thunderbear put all his past woes behind him and win again, thanks to two monster putts on 17 and 18, having done pretty much the same on Saturday.

On to Belgium this week.

This is the tour the LIV could kill almost instantly if they really thought about it.

Some excellent golf being played by both men and women in the Scandinavian Mixed - pity it’s being ignored because of an exhibition match by has-beens in St Albans

I was there today to see Charl win the trophy LP. I'm sure the $4million he picked up is of some consolation for a has-been!

LadyPutt wrote:Some excellent golf being played by both men and women in the Scandinavian Mixed - pity it’s being ignored because of an exhibition match by has-beens in St Albans  

I was looking at the BMW Invitational entry list before the Scandinavian Masters finished. They had a spot reserved for the winner of the Scandinavian Masters. I wonder if Linn Grant will play?

Interesting news re DP World Tour players being fined and banned from the next PGAT/DPW co sanctioned events. (Scottish Open & Brabasol). Apparently, it's not in the rules of the DP World Tour that they can give indefinite bans. So it's on a tournament by tournament basis. Next conflict - Irish Open v Portland event.

WTF? Gareth Bale?

“Cazoo Open supported by Gareth Bale”

Golf, Wales, Cazoo open, Madrid.

Bale, the saviour of European golf.

Shane Lowry's ProAm part er did a bit of damage today. https://twitter.com/ShaneLowryGolf/status/1567563541728710660?t=sql7Ctg7EL2IHA_QYM9Okg&s=19

A bit tiresome to hear players like Rory moan about LIV players in this weeks field (Garcia, Westy, Poults). Didn’t he himself de facto leave the ET because he thought the PGAT was better - and only continued playing the ET because they changed the eligibility criteria?

Now these LIV guys still want to remain with the ET (their home tour), they basically just swapped the PGAT with LIV. You can disagree with their ethics in playing for Saudi money, but leaving one foreign tour for another shouldn’t be something odious.

Different story with players like Ancer and Gooch though.

pedro wrote:A bit tiresome to hear players like Rory moan about LIV players in this weeks field (Garcia, Westy, Poults). Didn’t he himself de facto leave the ET because he thought the PGAT was better - and only continued playing the ET because they changed the eligibility criteria?

Now these LIV guys still want to remain with the ET (their home tour), they basically just swapped the PGAT with LIV. You can disagree with their ethics in playing for Saudi money, but leaving one foreign tour for another shouldn’t be something odious.

Different story with players like Ancer and Gooch though.

Billy Horschel can cram it too.

Yes there are big double standards in this whole realm.

Quite. Like F1 hypocrites and football hypocrites I don't think golfers have a leg to stand on.

What don't you people get about the open secret that the Saudis are not here to host a rival tour but wanting to blow up the PGAT and ET? They aren't some new interesting side show, they are a new tour with the stated intent of making the current tours irrelevant in the long term.

Rory and Billy Ho (and the rest) deserve a lot of credit for fighting to stop the destruction of 100's of years of golf history.

How do you think the golf ladder would look with the saudis at the top?

Do you think they will maintain a system if ET, challenge tour, regional tours, Amatuer R and A events, ET run ryder cup?

If the Suadis succeed in becoming the top tour they define how golf is run around the world. And the golf we play is part of the heritage of how this system has worked for over 100 years.

McLaren wrote:What don't you people get about the open secret that the Saudis are not here to host a rival tour but wanting to blow up the PGAT and ET? They aren't some new interesting side show, they are a new tour with the stated intent of making the current tours irrelevant in the long term.

Rory and Billy Ho (and the rest) deserve a lot of credit for fighting to stop the destruction of 100's of years of golf history.

How do you think the golf ladder would look with the saudis at the top?

Do you think they will maintain a system if ET, challenge tour, regional tours, Amatuer R and A events, ET run ryder cup?

If the Suadis succeed in becoming the top tour they define how golf is run around the world. And the golf we play is part of the heritage of how this system has worked for over 100 years.

How are they going to do that with a fixed field of 48, no world Ranking points and no majors?

Let's see if Rory can swoop in and save the European Tour's flagship title from falling into the villainous clutches of the evil, Saudi-enabling LIV staff 

Go on Lowry you beauty!!! 

Hojgaard (leading by six at the time) just found the water three times in a row on the par-three second, now he's found the water again on the par-five third. I don't think I've ever seen such a run before!

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:What don't you people get about the open secret that the Saudis are not here to host a rival tour but wanting to blow up the PGAT and ET? They aren't some new interesting side show, they are a new tour with the stated intent of making the current tours irrelevant in the long term.

Rory and Billy Ho (and the rest) deserve a lot of credit for fighting to stop the destruction of 100's of years of golf history.

How do you think the golf ladder would look with the saudis at the top?

Do you think they will maintain a system if ET, challenge tour, regional tours, Amatuer R and A events, ET run ryder cup?

If the Suadis succeed in becoming the top tour they define how golf is run around the world. And the golf we play is part of the heritage of how this system has worked for over 100 years.

How are they going to do that with a fixed field of 48, no world Ranking points and no majors?

The more I think about it, world ranking points are the last layer of protective shield that the existing tours have, the minute official world ranking points are awarded in LIV events rightly or wrongly) the game will be up for the existing tours.

Looks like the kind of day that will graphically illustrate the difference in degree of difficulty between Carnoustie & TOC!!

My caddie on a Scottish golf trip said “You play Carnoustie because it is the toughest, Kingsbarns because it is the prettiest and the Old Course because of the history”
Fairly accurate I thought.

BlueCoverman wrote:My caddie on a Scottish golf trip said “You play Carnoustie because it is the toughest, Kingsbarns because it is the prettiest and the Old Course because of the history”
Fairly accurate I thought.

You play TOC because it displays the fundamentals of strategic architecture. Caddies are full of BS. Such tedious types.

McLaren wrote:

BlueCoverman wrote:My caddie on a Scottish golf trip said “You play Carnoustie because it is the toughest, Kingsbarns because it is the prettiest and the Old Course because of the history”
Fairly accurate I thought.

You play TOC because it displays the fundamentals of strategic architecture. Caddies are full of BS. Such tedious types.

I’d say that’s pretty accurate by the caddy, what part of it do you disagree with Mac. Is TOC prettier than KB? Is TOC tougher than Carnoustie?

KB is pretty middle of the road. You can play TOC for the history but if you really want to appreciate it then you have to start thinking about how the ground has been used to play golf. The town is a fun place for a golfer but the value of playing the TOC is far deeper than that.

Carnoustie is a decent links.

Never pick a course to play because you think it is tougher than another. Did we learn nothing from the slew of "championship" golf courses built in the 80's and 90's?

McLaren wrote:KB is pretty middle of the road. You can play TOC for the history but if you really want to appreciate it then you have to start thinking about how the ground has been used to play golf. The town is a fun place for a golfer but the value of playing the TOC is far deeper than that.

Carnoustie is a decent links.

Never pick a course to play because you think it is tougher than another. Did we learn nothing from the slew of "championship" golf courses built in the 80's and 90's?

Hang on, you’re trying to hijack a fairly honest and accurate caddy statement to promote Doakishness!!

I get that there’s a school of thought that there’s something deeper about St. Andrews than meets the eye and it’s more than just history.

You could however also say that about many courses. Particularly some designed by the greats (McKenzie, Colt, Braid)

Good win for Fox in the end. Nearly as famous as his dad now.

McLaren wrote:KB is pretty middle of the road. You can play TOC for the history but if you really want to appreciate it then you have to start thinking about how the ground has been used to play golf. The town is a fun place for a golfer but the value of playing the TOC is far deeper than that.

Carnoustie is a decent links.

Never pick a course to play because you think it is tougher than another. Did we learn nothing from the slew of "championship" golf courses built in the 80's and 90's?

You sound a bit like an art critic, Mac, holding forth on some masterpiece as if you knew what the artist was trying to get across. TOC is built on some lovely bumpy links land and it's old. Stop trying to ascribe more to its design that there really is.

Navy

TOC is art.

I don’t doubt your opinion of the caddies at TOC Mac, but my experience was more fortunate. A few holes into my round my caddie who I had just met, said that he was working for Mark McNulty at the Senior Open in Porthcawl in a couple of months time. I said that my wife and I were planning to go to watch and he said I’ll sort you out some tickets. I said I wasn’t fishing for tickets Neil and he replied its no problem.
On the first practice day a few weeks later the guy on the gate handed me an envelope. Inside were two tickets for the week and a ticket for the players car park.

McLaren wrote:Navy

TOC is art.

It might be Mac, but it's obsolete as a pro course

McLaren wrote:KB is pretty middle of the road. You can play TOC for the history but if you really want to appreciate it then you have to start thinking about how the ground has been used to play golf. The town is a fun place for a golfer but the value of playing the TOC is far deeper than that.

Carnoustie is a decent links.

Never pick a course to play because you think it is tougher than another. Did we learn nothing from the slew of "championship" golf courses built in the 80's and 90's?

Mac, Carnoustie and KB are better in every way than TOC, especially as regards to design. We have been through this many times and we can do a hole by hole analysis as someone who actually knows the course back to front compared to someone who only has played it a couple of times.

Super

I have played TOC many times and walked it even more. Obviously not as often as you but how often we have played TOC has nothing to do with its architectural merits.

From how you speak about courses I have doubts that you are able to analyse courses from an architectural perspective. Anyone can go an eat at the best restaurants or read the great books but it doesn't mean they understand what is going on.

McLaren wrote:Super

I have played TOC many times and walked it even more. Obviously not as often as you but how often we have played TOC has nothing to do with its architectural merits.

From how you speak about courses I have doubts that you are able to analyse courses from an architectural perspective. Anyone can go an eat at the best restaurants or read the great books but it doesn't mean they understand what is going on.

Ah yes, the "no true golf course architecture fan" fallacy.

You seem to think that it's some sort of earthmoving masterpiece, despite it being largely the product of natural processes as well it's not even played the way it was designed, furthermore so many of the holes have virtually no design merits to them. Others are so unremarkable and so dreary that they do not make the golfer think at all.

A well designed course encourages the course to be played in many different ways. TOC doesn't score highly on this point anymore.

18 is the worst closing hole in Open history and would be much better as a 17th hole.

Super

If you hate it so much is there any chance you would let me take over your St Andrews membership?

McLaren wrote:Super

If you hate it so much is there any chance you would let me take over your St Andrews membership?

Mac, I don't hate it, I just think it's laughably overrated as a course, obsolete for pro golf and poor at producing drama.

I enjoy playing it, because it's a great opportunity to shoot your lowest scores and get a handicap cut.

The degree to which it is fawned over when I could pull 18 better holes from other courses in St Andrews is testament to it not being that special.
Take the history away from TOC, transplant it to some other village on the east coast and it's just another average links course. It's as simple as that.

super_realist wrote:
The degree to which it is fawned over when I could pull 18 better holes from other courses in St Andrews is testament to it not being that special.
Take the history away from TOC, transplant it to some other village on the east coast and it's just another average links course.  It's as simple as that.

Accept it. You don't understand what you are looking at.


PS, what part of cam smiths win this year wasn't "producing drama"?

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:
The degree to which it is fawned over when I could pull 18 better holes from other courses in St Andrews is testament to it not being that special.
Take the history away from TOC, transplant it to some other village on the east coast and it's just another average links course.  It's as simple as that.

Accept it. You don't understand what you are looking at.


PS, what part of cam smiths win this year wasn't "producing drama"?

Ah yes, only you can understand golf course architecture.
How many dreary Opens have there been at TOC? It is the worst venue, not just for golf, but for spectating.
The greens are far too big, how is that good design?

super_realist wrote:
The greens are far too big, how is that good design?

Tell me you are philistine, like without telling me you are a philistine.

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:
The greens are far too big, how is that good design?

Tell me you are philistine, like without telling me you are a philistine.

Mac, it's a tees and greens course. It is too easy and thus poorly designed.
The greens "complexes" as you call them aren't especially challenging so how does ensuring most people will be putting in regulation encourage any sort of shot making? As a member of St Andrews your golf gets worse, not better.

Off the tee is also poor because there is virtually no danger, so a golfer can just whip out driver at all times.

Suppose you've got some special Doak imparted wisdom as to what makes St Andrews greens so well designed?

super_realist wrote:

Suppose you've got some special Doak imparted wisdom as to what makes St Andrews greens so well designed?

All can be revealed for a small fee.

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Suppose you've got some special Doak imparted wisdom as to what makes St Andrews greens so well designed?

All can be revealed for a small fee.

Bottom line is we appear to play golf for different reasons. I play to he the best golfer I can be, you play to toss off over someone else's views and arbitrary criteria of "design"
St Andrews Old Course doesn't make me a better golfer, so I think it fails as a course.

Wasn’t the TOC originally designed as a 22 hole course? And merged into 18 by coincidence?

pedro wrote:Wasn’t the TOC originally designed as a 22 hole course? And merged into 18 by coincidence?

Something like that, and played in opposite direction, which is much better.

TOC is to golf what the universe is to us in the anthropic principle.

McLaren wrote:TOC is to golf what the universe is to us in the anthropic principle.

Don't talk crap Mac.

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:
The degree to which it is fawned over when I could pull 18 better holes from other courses in St Andrews is testament to it not being that special.
Take the history away from TOC, transplant it to some other village on the east coast and it's just another average links course.  It's as simple as that.

Accept it. You don't understand what you are looking at.


PS, what part of cam smiths win this year wasn't "producing drama"?

What part of it was? He rattled in 4 or 5 big putts around the turn and that was that. Not exactly Van der Velte in the Burn, Harrington going in the Burn twice but still winning. I can't comment on the architectural purity of TOC but as a drama filled finishing stretch for Pro tournaments, comparing TOC & Carnoustie would be like comparing Accrington Stanley and Man City.

JAS wrote:

McLaren wrote:

super_realist wrote:
The degree to which it is fawned over when I could pull 18 better holes from other courses in St Andrews is testament to it not being that special.
Take the history away from TOC, transplant it to some other village on the east coast and it's just another average links course.  It's as simple as that.

Accept it. You don't understand what you are looking at.


PS, what part of cam smiths win this year wasn't "producing drama"?

What part of it was? He rattled in 4 or 5 big putts around the turn and that was that.  Not exactly Van der Velte in the Burn, Harrington going in the Burn twice but still winning. I can't comment on the architectural purity of TOC but as a drama filled finishing stretch for Pro tournaments, comparing TOC & Carnoustie would be like comparing Accrington Stanley and Man City.

That's it JAS, TOC simply is only capable of someone winning by shooting the lights out, it isn't capable of humbling a player or making them drop down the leaderboard through a stretch of tricky holes, because there aren't any.

There is no pleasing some people. The guy shot a 64 to win a major, would you prefer to see Lucas glover finish 6 iron, 6 iron up the last?

McLaren wrote:There is no pleasing some people. The guy shot a 64 to win a major, would you prefer to see Lucas glover finish 6 iron, 6 iron up the last?

You were trying to say there was drama, there really wasn't much by way of drama. Smith was impressive to watch yes but it was more of a putting documentary than a spine tingling drama. Face it Mac apart from 2 players being neck and neck on 17th tee it would be hard for Stan Drews to produce the kind of drama seen on other courses on the closing few holes of an Open. I very much doubt if there's any course that would match Carnoustie in that regard. Every single shot from the 14th tee onward is fraught with danger and it's right in your face, any slip up/misjudgement and you're in trouble. On TOC yeah the approach to 17 has that but one hole as opposed to 5 in a row??

Finally a 2nd win for Smith, the lad has been held back at the top level for too long by mediocre (for tour level) putting stats. He's always had great GIR stats, he's currently 2nd on tour this season but the flat stick has never been hot enough to sustain a position in the upper echelons of the rankings, indeed if you only look at his putting stats you'd wonder how he keeps his card. However a new putter and new putting grip and hey presto a LOT more putts are dropping. Remains to be seen if last week was just a honeymoon for the new putting approach or if its something that can be maintained. If it's the latter then he's going to catapult upwards in the rankings fairly rapidly.