LIV golf

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Probably best for this to have its own thread...

Latest news is that 11 LIV players have sued the PGA tour. Here is a nice article on that https://golf.com/news/phil-mickelson-lawsuit-vs-pga-tour-revelations/?amp=1

Better stock up on popcorn, it looks like we will become privy to lots of juicy information which has been secret up to now.

McLaren wrote:I hope Rory and Tiger aren't putting too much of their own money into this simulator golf thing. I can see it flopping pretty hard.

Wouldn't want them to run out of money.
Agree it will flop like Shane Lowry in a diving competition

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:I hope Rory and Tiger aren't putting too much of their own money into this simulator golf thing. I can see it flopping pretty hard.

Wouldn't want them to run out of money.
Agree it will flop like Shane Lowry in a diving competition

There’s most likely a huge financial upside for them. Otherwise they wouldn’t engage.

incontinentia wrote:

LadyPutt wrote:Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

Good idea.

There continues to be regular developments in the realm of PGA Tour vs LIV golf. There are now plans for 12 "elevated" events on the PGA Tour, presumably with more prize money or no cuts. A new category of "top player" has also been created, so there is effectively a segregation of the top players and the average/journeymen players...is this a good idea? It might create bad feeling among the rank and file players and backfire on the PGA Tour. 
Tiger and Rory have also announced a new, tech-infused golf league(TGL) to begin in 2024 which will take place on virtual/simulator courses on Monday nights and is aimed to tap into technology to appeal to a younger generation of golfers.

What exactly do the journeymen players have to moan about? They get paid ridiculous sums of money to be journeymen - 126 players have made over $1m on the PGA Tour during the 2021/22 season, and that is just from winnings let alone any sponsorship/money they bring in individually off the course.
In these new proposals it seems they're getting a guaranteed sum of money even when missing cuts, and for merely having a card too.

Looks a pretty damn sweet existence to me.

Cameron Smith jumps to LIV - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62713057
Unsurprising
No morals
Tiresome pillock; no great loss

navyblueshorts wrote:Cameron Smith jumps to LIV - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62713057
Unsurprising
No morals
Tiresome pillock; no great loss

Yeah, he's only the world number 2 and the Open champion, no great loss, alright then

It is indeed a great loss. Niemann going as well, a promising young player. Read that the LIV's roster has won 12 of the last 24 majors. They certainly have the momentum over the PGA Tour and are only a few more acquisitions away from outright supremacy.

ralphjohn69 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Cameron Smith jumps to LIV - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62713057
Unsurprising
No morals
Tiresome pillock; no great loss

Yeah, he's only the world number 2 and the Open champion, no great loss, alright then    

Great response; well done. Someone else will become #2. Big deal.

You clearly didn't pay any attention to how I configured the initial post, but no real surprise given the standard of your response.

Duty281 wrote:It is indeed a great loss. Niemann going as well, a promising young player. Read that the LIV's roster has won 12 of the last 24 majors. They certainly have the momentum over the PGA Tour and are only a few more acquisitions away from outright supremacy.

The only ones of note are arguably DJ, DeChambeau and, now, Smith. The rest are shot end of career embarrassments or the never will bes.
Whatever. I hope they sleep well. They probably will, because they only care about accumulation of absurd wealth from a morally reprehensible regime. **** them.

I have some sympathy w/ the view that the PGAT has marginalised/reduced the ET over the years by simply offering larger prise funds etc, arguably the same as LIV are doing, but the mealy mouthed Poopie coming out of the LIV shills is nauseating. Next time I'm up at Worksop, I'm going to see if I can't deface all the Westwood crap on display there. These people would take a trophy made of melted down gold fillings from Jewish holocaust victims of Hitler were alive and offering a similar alternative tour all while spouting rubbish about "growing the game", "we're free, independent contractors" or "sport and politics shouldn't mix and I'm just here to play golf".

Yada, yada, yada. Dubai. UAE. I can hear it coming now. Whatever. Situations like this are about drawing lines and I think the LIV lot have stepped some way over onto the wrong side. Other opinions are available.

TBH, I couldn't really care if the pro game dies. Completely. It's almost always an utter bore on TV in any case. Great game to play; less so to watch and listen to all the utter dross that passes for 'analysis'.

Duty281 wrote:It is indeed a great loss. Niemann going as well, a promising young player. Read that the LIV's roster has won 12 of the last 24 majors. They certainly have the momentum over the PGA Tour and are only a few more acquisitions away from outright supremacy.

This is just patently false - they have 2 of the current top 20 players in the OGWR, 13 of the top 50. It won't be getting OGWR points for at least another 12/18 months, that's if they even get them

Not to say the PGA Tour is doing well/not taking hits btw - it's embarrassing for the tour that it's main response to this, has had to be led by players having their own crisis meeting.

I have to agree with Navy's analysis, that my feeling as a fan is more and more that watching the pro game as a sport, is dying out a slow death. Neither LIV or PGA Tour are a good TV product for fans at the moment, and doesn't feel like either are focusing on rectifying that for the future either...merely just giving more and more money out to already overpaid athletes.

I should have probably clarified by saying a few more 'top ten' acquisitions away from supremacy.

It won't be too long anyway, the PGA can't compete with the funds of LIV and they'll have to reach a compromise at some juncture, otherwise the PGA will end up like the BDO did in darts.

I don't think pro golf is dying a death. TV numbers are good, participation numbers are good, I think it's in a very healthy state. I do think TV coverage of golf is utter crap and needs to be brought into the 21st century; this is something the LIV can exploit. That and the general pace of the game can be improved under LIV.

So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

navyblueshorts wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Cameron Smith jumps to LIV - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/62713057
Unsurprising
No morals
Tiresome pillock; no great loss

Yeah, he's only the world number 2 and the Open champion, no great loss, alright then    

Great response; well done. Someone else will become #2. Big deal.

You clearly didn't pay any attention to how I configured the initial post, but no real surprise given the standard of your response.

I noticed you were trying to be a smartar$e with your response but it kind of failed because you're just plain wrong if you think Smith going to LIV isn't a loss. I'm more against the PGA Tour thinking they run Pro Golf than pro-LIV and think the PGA Tour's response to all of this has been dreadful.

And McIlroy isn't half turning into a hypocritical mouthy so & so as well.

Ralph

But the PGAT do run the meaningful pro golf tournaments. They could do way better in how the PGAT is presented but ultimately they are the only pro golf tour that is close to worth watching. The ET will share some of the elements that make the PGAT the top tour but unfortunately they just don't have the top players.

Most PGAT (and ET) events have a meaningful history. Via past champions, iconic moments, the organizations that set them up, the courses played etc. You need that stuff to make sport relevant.

It is like when the top European teams tried set up the super league. It would have been terrible. Just plastic, plucked out of thin air sporting events.

Just think how dull the WGC's have become, and the Saudis aren't anywhere near those sort of fields.

incontinentia wrote:So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

What else could they do?

The more subtle approach would have been to give the Saudi defectors the three commissioners waivers to play other tours they are typically given per year. Looked like he was being charitable and left the ball in the Saudi court as to how they fill a schedule with PGAT players who can only play 3 times per year (at most as they may also need to use waivers to fulfill other commitments). Essentially the PGAT sanctions 3 Saudi events per year and if players want to play more they have to hand in their PGAT card. But I think this would be a risky move and obviously wasn't the message the tour wanted to send. Could the PGAT really open the door like that even if only a little?

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

What else could they do?

The more subtle approach would have been to give the Saudi defectors the three commissioners waivers to play other tours they are typically given per year. Looked like he was being charitable and left the ball in the Saudi court as to how they fill a schedule with PGAT players who can only play 3 times per year (at most as they may also need to use waivers to fulfill other commitments). Essentially the PGAT sanctions 3 Saudi events per year and if players want to play more they have to hand in their PGAT card. But I think this would be a risky move and obviously wasn't the message the tour wanted to send. Could the PGAT really open the door like that even if only a little?

Just seems like the PGA Tour have F'd themselves in the A by banning LIV defectors. The players still went and now the PGA cant have some of the best players in the world, by their own hand. I guess they couldnt have taken a laissez faire approach either, impossible situation for them.

incontinentia wrote:

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

What else could they do?

The more subtle approach would have been to give the Saudi defectors the three commissioners waivers to play other tours they are typically given per year. Looked like he was being charitable and left the ball in the Saudi court as to how they fill a schedule with PGAT players who can only play 3 times per year (at most as they may also need to use waivers to fulfill other commitments). Essentially the PGAT sanctions 3 Saudi events per year and if players want to play more they have to hand in their PGAT card. But I think this would be a risky move and obviously wasn't the message the tour wanted to send. Could the PGAT really open the door like that even if only a little?

Just seems like the PGA Tour have F'd themselves in the A by banning LIV defectors. The players still went and now the PGA cant have some of the best players in the world, by their own hand. I guess they couldnt have taken a laissez faire approach either, impossible situation for them.

Maybe it would have helped the PGAT to leave their newfound wokeness and dislike for Norman at the door. Too many emotions seem to be involved.

I am a little baffled at how fast the new revamped PGA Tour schedule was presented. In particular I wonder how a non-profit organisation like the PGAT all of a sudden could muster hugely inflated purses across the board. Don't tell me it's only sponsor money. Where has all this money been sitting?

I’m quite fascinated by the sense of entitlement of some of the defectors. It’s like they’ve run off with their mistress but still expect to come back to the marital home when they fancy it.

Logistically though I suppose it depends on what they do as regards ranking points, if Liv events don’t have them then the likes of Smith, Johnson etc will slide down the rankings to a point where they become ineligible. Past major winners are in a slightly different position as they have exemptions.

Pedro makes a good point re new found extra finance on the pgat, are we simply to believe that it’s just the result of a concerted begging exercise to sponsors? Are they taking money from elsewhere like grass roots development? Genuine question because I haven’t looked into it deep enough…Are LIV making any noises about investing in the grass roots of the game?

JAS wrote:I’m quite fascinated by the sense of entitlement of some of the defectors. It’s like they’ve run off with their mistress but still expect to come back to the marital home when they fancy it.

 

JAS wrote:Are LIV making any noises about investing in the grass roots of the game?

I think they would be wise in setting up some golf programs / academies for kids, for instance in 3rd world countries. It wouldn't require major financing but be a good PR move.

Alternatively sponsor som local tourneys in "smaller" golf markets.

If they are serious about "growing the game" (and care about their image) initiatives like this would be low hanging fruits.

Jas/Pedro

The new TV rights money has kicked in fully for the PGAT. Hence the purse increases. Would have happened even without the Saudi league. Just with a different distribution pre Tiger/Rory manifesto.

pedro wrote:

JAS wrote:I’m quite fascinated by the sense of entitlement of some of the defectors. It’s like they’ve run off with their mistress but still expect to come back to the marital home when they fancy it.

 

JAS wrote:Are LIV making any noises about investing in the grass roots of the game?

I think they would be wise in setting up some golf programs / academies for kids, for instance in 3rd world countries. It wouldn't require major financing but be a good PR move.

Alternatively sponsor som local tourneys in "smaller" golf markets.

If they are serious about "growing the game" (and care about their image) initiatives like this would be low hanging fruits.

Spoiler alert - LIV have little to no interest beyond lip service to "growing the game" or caring about their "image".

I bothered to watch the back 9 of the Boston LIV yesterday. And quite entertaining it was. Cam Smith in it right till the end, Westy throwing it all away on the last by bogeying with a wedge from the fw, Lahiri just missing a 6ft eagle putt on the last for the win, and DJ winning it with a 30 ft eagle bomb on the first playoff hole. The Shark looked quite satisfied and Paulina could hardly stay in her own tank top.

The team element seems ok (bar the stupid team names) in terms of more players having something to play for. But still a bit confusing that everybody finish on different holes - although this problem could probably be fixed if they worked a bit with the rather annoying TV scoreboards. Could do without David Faherty though.

incontinentia wrote:

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

What else could they do?

The more subtle approach would have been to give the Saudi defectors the three commissioners waivers to play other tours they are typically given per year. Looked like he was being charitable and left the ball in the Saudi court as to how they fill a schedule with PGAT players who can only play 3 times per year (at most as they may also need to use waivers to fulfill other commitments). Essentially the PGAT sanctions 3 Saudi events per year and if players want to play more they have to hand in their PGAT card. But I think this would be a risky move and obviously wasn't the message the tour wanted to send. Could the PGAT really open the door like that even if only a little?

Just seems like the PGA Tour have F'd themselves in the A by banning LIV defectors. The players still went and now the PGA cant have some of the best players in the world, by their own hand. I guess they couldnt have taken a laissez faire approach either, impossible situation for them.

Who cares? It's facile to think that those that have left can't easily be replaced with similar talent. People only climax over the loss of so-and-so because that's all they know.

pedro wrote:

incontinentia wrote:

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:So can we all agree that in hindsight, the PGA Tour shot themselves in the foot by banning LIV defectors? Or perhaps if the PGA Tour hadnt banned them, this might have been seen as tacit approval of a brutal regime? An impossible situation for poor Monahan.

What else could they do?

The more subtle approach would have been to give the Saudi defectors the three commissioners waivers to play other tours they are typically given per year. Looked like he was being charitable and left the ball in the Saudi court as to how they fill a schedule with PGAT players who can only play 3 times per year (at most as they may also need to use waivers to fulfill other commitments). Essentially the PGAT sanctions 3 Saudi events per year and if players want to play more they have to hand in their PGAT card. But I think this would be a risky move and obviously wasn't the message the tour wanted to send. Could the PGAT really open the door like that even if only a little?

Just seems like the PGA Tour have F'd themselves in the A by banning LIV defectors. The players still went and now the PGA cant have some of the best players in the world, by their own hand. I guess they couldnt have taken a laissez faire approach either, impossible situation for them.

Maybe it would have helped the PGAT to leave their newfound wokeness and dislike for Norman at the door. Too many emotions seem to be involved.

Umm, maybe. However, it's Norman with the rather large chip on his shoulder over this. He's been nursing a grudge for decades, so perhaps you should argue he's at least as much to 'blame'?

Definition of a LIV w4anker: insisting on playing the BMW PGA, thereby preventing someone more deserving from receiving a place, shooting 76 in Rd1, withdrawing for no apparent reason as a result, and ****ing off to America.

What a piece of ****, especially after banging on about 'supporting the ET' and 'if people don't like, that's their problem'.

pedro wrote:I bothered to watch the back 9 of the Boston LIV yesterday. And quite entertaining it was. Cam Smith in it right till the end, Westy throwing it all away on the last by bogeying with a wedge from the fw, Lahiri just missing a 6ft eagle putt on the last for the win, and DJ winning it with a 30 ft eagle bomb on the first playoff hole. The Shark looked quite satisfied and Paulina could hardly stay in her own tank top.

The team element seems ok (bar the stupid team names) in terms of more players having something to play for. But still a bit confusing that everybody finish on different holes - although this problem could probably be fixed if they worked a bit with the rather annoying TV scoreboards. Could do without David Faherty though.

Ah yes, because there's never been a good finish to a PGAT or ET event ever...

Min Woo Lee is something else. He looks about 10 stone and is crushing his tee shots with ball speeds in excess of 180 mph. His shotmaking is phenomenal too.

So I guess the elephant in the room is... what impact will it have if a LIV player wins this? Pat Reed is leading as I type. Several other LIVers aren't far behind either.

navyblueshorts wrote:Definition of a LIV w4anker: insisting on playing the BMW PGA, thereby preventing someone more deserving from receiving a place, shooting 76 in Rd1, withdrawing for no apparent reason as a result, and ****ing off to America.

What a piece of ****, especially after banging on about 'supporting the ET' and 'if people don't like, that's their problem'.

Sergio has always been a punk. The guy whose place he took is a fellow Spaniard and good friend of Jon Rahm apparently.

Yeah, what happened to Sergio? Didn’t he feel loved?
Apparently he was spotted the day after at some ball game in the US.

incontinentia wrote:Min Woo Lee is something else. He looks about 10 stone and is crushing his tee shots with ball speeds in excess of 180 mph. His shotmaking is phenomenal too.

So I guess the elephant in the room is... what impact will it have if a LIV player wins this? Pat Reed is leading as I type. Several other LIVers aren't far behind either.

They didn't. Move on; nothing to see here. Enjoyed the comments from Lowry.

Lee is pretty good though...

incontinentia wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Definition of a LIV w4anker: insisting on playing the BMW PGA, thereby preventing someone more deserving from receiving a place, shooting 76 in Rd1, withdrawing for no apparent reason as a result, and ****ing off to America.

What a piece of ****, especially after banging on about 'supporting the ET' and 'if people don't like, that's their problem'.

Sergio has always been a punk. The guy whose place he took is a fellow Spaniard and good friend of Jon Rahm apparently.

So it seems. Might have to swallow some humble pie and agree that, in hindsight, Mac was probably correct w/ his assessment of the worm. Might take me a while to recover from that admission ....

The thing with sergio is he always comes off as petulant. I think in some ways just going full d**k head like Reed is preferable.

I'd rather petulant than being someone like Hamilton. A truly insufferable arse.
The Shia Lebouf of F1

Who or what is a Shia lebouf?

McLaren wrote:Who or what is a Shia lebouf?

He's that arse actor. Sure you've heard of him, you're just trying to be clever.

pedro wrote:Yeah, what happened to Sergio? Didn’t he feel loved?
Apparently he was spotted the day after at some ball game in the US.

.

Inco

I've never heard that. Sounds like a puerile rumor.

Sergio is an arse because he is a clueless idiot.

McLaren wrote:Inco

I've never heard that. Sounds like a puerile rumor.

Sergio is an arse because he is a clueless idiot.

.

Harrington a stud? Maybe in the world of funny walks or people with their eyes too close together.

McLaren wrote:Who or what is a Shia lebouf?

Sounds like a ready meal

McLaren wrote:Who or what is a Shia lebouf?

And what's Hamilton got to do w/ LIV?

incontinentia wrote:that Sergio finds it very difficult to achieve or maintain an erection when with his spouse or significant other.

Tiger had a work-around for that

Quite a lot of top sportsmen are arrogant, aloof pr1cks.
Can understand the mentality, bit it doesn't endear you to them.

navyblueshorts wrote:

McLaren wrote:Who or what is a Shia lebouf?

And what's Hamilton got to do w/ LIV?

Nothing, bit i was responding to your claim about Garcia being petulant and I said it was a preferable trait to being a knob on a million levels like Hamilton.

Garcia's a certified pea brain. Always has been.

But back to LIV ... It will be interesting to see how that tour progresses. Sure, the top tier players will get major invites (for a while at least), but as ranking points drop away so will those opportunities. I personally think it will matter a lot to LIV players as time goes by.

And, with a shotgun start, how easy will it be to cycle in new players? If the PGA gets their way, players won't be able to test the waters on LIV.

Shotrock wrote:Garcia's a certified pea brain. Always has been.

But back to LIV ... It will be interesting to see how that tour progresses. Sure, the top tier players will get major invites (for a while at least), but as ranking points drop away so will those opportunities. I personally think it will matter a lot to LIV players as time goes by.

And, with a shotgun start, how easy will it be to cycle in new players? If the PGA gets their way, players won't be able to test the waters on LIV.

I think Liv will have to be standard starts with a bigger field to be taken seriously.

super_realist wrote:Harrington a stud? Maybe in the world of funny walks or people with their eyes too close together.

.

That explains his funny walk. Inertia.

incontinentia wrote:

super_realist wrote:Harrington a stud? Maybe in the world of funny walks or people with their eyes too close together.

Many tour pros who have shared a locker room with Harrington have reported that he is extremely well-endowed. When John Daly was a guest on Howard Stern in the early 00's, he said that Paddy had the biggest dick on tour.

Bigger than Tiger?

McLaren wrote:

incontinentia wrote:

super_realist wrote:Harrington a stud? Maybe in the world of funny walks or people with their eyes too close together.

Many tour pros who have shared a locker room with Harrington have reported that he is extremely well-endowed. When John Daly was a guest on Howard Stern in the early 00's, he said that Paddy had the biggest dick on tour.

Bigger than Tiger?

That seems like a bit of a racial comment, surprising for you McLaren