LIV golf

First topic message reminder :

Probably best for this to have its own thread...

Latest news is that 11 LIV players have sued the PGA tour. Here is a nice article on that https://golf.com/news/phil-mickelson-lawsuit-vs-pga-tour-revelations/?amp=1

Better stock up on popcorn, it looks like we will become privy to lots of juicy information which has been secret up to now.

I see, rather laughably, Patrick Reed is suing Brandel Chamblee and Golf Channel for defamation to the tune of one billion dollars. If you fancy a chuckle you can have a read of it here - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22138086-patrick-reed-lawsuit-v-the-golf-channel-and-brandel-chamblee

Unsurprisingly, the lawyer he's hired has never won a defamation case - that reads like it's been put together by a 13 year old.

For someone who wanted to leave the PGA Tour to spend more time with his family, Patrick is certainly doing a lot of things in his non-LIV playing time, that ensures he will be spending a fair bit of time away from them...

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

No I mean it. You don't find his decision to turn down 700/800 million admirable? He cares about the important stuff while so many others are selling their souls for money.

...I know he's already loaded, but still 

For Tiger it's about legacy.

For the rest, I would probably just take the money and leave/liv/live.

10-20 years down the road I doubt that DJ, Brooks, Phil's legacy will be severely impacted.

incontinentia wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

No I mean it. You don't find his decision to turn down 700/800 million admirable? He cares about the important stuff while so many others are selling their souls for money.

...I know he's already loaded, but still 

Not really, he's been hoovering up appearance fees for years, especially for playing in the middle east, and now comes across as all high & mighty? Do me a favour.

pedro wrote:For Tiger it's about legacy.

Is Tiger's legacy not already secured though? If the PGA Tour goes bust, he still will have played and dominated on the world's strongest tour for 15 years

The fact Tiger has had to wade in here means that things behind the scenes are even more worrisome for the PGAT than it appears. I said a day or two ago that I think the next phase for the Saudis is to get just enough top 50 players to render the OWGR points issue moot, and I think Tiger knows this is what is coming as well. I am not sure what the number will be but there is a % of top 50 players going to the Saudis that will legitimize them and over the off season this is what they will be pushing for.

I suspect Tiger and co have some insider info on just how many guys are already thinking about jumping ship.

I am all for free market competition. And the more I think about the LIV league, the more questions I have:

Why golf? I mean, Greg Norman might be a master salesman, but you're talking a pretty boring sport for mass viewing appeal. Events take days, drama is hardly guaranteed, fans are not what I call passionate (save for the every other year exhibition event).

F1 I totally understand.

I, of course, realize it's sports washing to a large degree and a desire for a few VERY rich people to immediately feel part of something very western and traditional. (Hey, I'm a bit of an anglophile myself.)

LIV will need to evolve. How are they going to to get rid of over-the-hill players?

I can't get my head around sponsorship. I DO know that the more successful the player the (much) greater the sponsorship. How will LIV players attract that $? Do the players even care about that $? (I'm guessing some do or will miss the ego-boosting that provides ... other will be delighted to be away from the obligatory activities.)

Finally, will Elon Musk make a play for Man United?

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

More like his contract would stipulate more than his weakling body would allow him to play.
If he stunk out an easy course like St Andrews, and he did. He's finished as a golfer and doubtful he could fulfill the demands Liv would put on him as a figurehead.

super_realist wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

More like his contract would stipulate more than his weakling body would allow him to play.
If he stunk out an easy course like St Andrews, and he did. He's finished as a golfer and doubtful he could fulfill the demands Liv would put on him as a figurehead.

Well, he was offered Normans job. I guess his frail body could manage that.

pedro wrote:

super_realist wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

More like his contract would stipulate more than his weakling body would allow him to play.
If he stunk out an easy course like St Andrews, and he did. He's finished as a golfer and doubtful he could fulfill the demands Liv would put on him as a figurehead.

Well, he was offered Normans job. I guess his frail body could manage that.

Maybe, but his pea sized, inarticulate brain could not. He can't say anything unless he is guided through it.

super_realist wrote:

pedro wrote:

super_realist wrote:

ralphjohn69 wrote:

incontinentia wrote:I didnt think Tiger could go any higher in my estimation, but his refusal of the huge LIV payday while physically wrecked and in the deep winter of his career has been very heartening. I think even super realist would agree with this. Now he's helping to protect the integrity of the sport and leading the fightback against LIV, he deserves a lot of credit.

I assume this is sarcasm....

More like his contract would stipulate more than his weakling body would allow him to play.
If he stunk out an easy course like St Andrews, and he did. He's finished as a golfer and doubtful he could fulfill the demands Liv would put on him as a figurehead.

Well, he was offered Normans job. I guess his frail body could manage that.

Maybe, but his pea sized, inarticulate brain could not. He can't say anything unless he is guided through it.

Not this again... its pretty obvious that Tiger is really, really smart.

He doesn't demonstrate it very often, he is vanilla, devoid of opinion and about as interesting as Kier Starmer.

He doesn't say anything which hasn't been sanitised and through a dozen filters .

What makes you think he's "smart"? I've never seen any evidence of this at all.

(Did like the "really, really" joke though, bravo)

Couple of thoughts:

1. If the players are completely independent contractors, free to play wherever they want, how is that they accrue a pension with the PGAT?

2. Who cares if Smith jumps? So he's hot one minute. Big deal. Everyone, including you Mac, bang on about the enormous depth of field in the PGAT these days, so (possibly) being #1 (for perhaps a short time only) amounts to a hill of beans. If he was #1 with a distance to the next comparable with Woods in his pomp, that would be different. He's not. He's just a good player on a hot streak IMO. There are enough good players left and the loss of a number of Saudi shills just gives some new blood a chance

navyblueshorts wrote:Couple of thoughts:

1. If the players are completely independent contractors, free to play wherever they want, how is that they accrue a pension with the PGAT?

I'm not a financial person by any means, but whats to stop any person setting up their own pension plan? I thought I read somewhere that the money they get from the FedEx is a deferred pension - whatever that means.

Navy

Not sure on the exact details of the pension, but the players may be independent in the sense they can sign up for whatever tour they want but if the want to play the PGAT they have to agree to the rules of the organisation. Eg not playing other tours in weeks the PGAT is being played.

As for Cam, I hope you are correct. My feeling however is that there are a lot of top 50 (or top 100) guys who are not looking for much justification to jump. Even a fleeting number 1 might be all they are looking for.

super_realist wrote:He doesn't demonstrate it very often, he is vanilla, devoid of opinion and about as interesting as Kier Starmer.

He doesn't say anything which hasn't been sanitised and through a dozen filters .

What makes you think he's "smart"? I've never seen any evidence of this at all.

(Did like the "really, really" joke though, bravo)

He cant say anything interesting or he'll get shafted by the media. We've covered this before

I know super doesn't really follow pro golf but sometimes it is like he has been under a rock for 25 years. One thing that has been consistently reported about Woods over the years is that he is a pretty intelligent guy.

McLaren wrote:I know super doesn't really follow pro golf but sometimes it is like he has been under a rock for 25 years.  One thing that has been consistently reported about Woods over the years is that he is a pretty intelligent guy.

When has he ever shown it? Can't drive without crashing, so stupid he thinks he can get away with banging 100's of hookers, adopts a demonstrably stupid exercise regime which has curtailed his career and when he speaks he sounds like a moron, so where exactly is this hyper intelligence?

I get you'd suck him off in an instant, but that doesn't mean he's intelligent just because he's your favourite player and you're a fanboy.

When has he ever shown intelligence?

incontinentia wrote:

super_realist wrote:He doesn't demonstrate it very often, he is vanilla, devoid of opinion and about as interesting as Kier Starmer.

He doesn't say anything which hasn't been sanitised and through a dozen filters .

What makes you think he's "smart"? I've never seen any evidence of this at all.

(Did like the "really, really" joke though, bravo)

He cant say anything interesting or he'll get shafted by the media. We've covered this before

Copout. Mickelson,Garcia and Poulter say what they think and don't care what the media say, so why would Woods? He's just not spontaneous enough to say anything interesting or answer a question he hasnt already heard a million times

What's Woods got to protect himself for or from? He's a billionaire. If anyone should be saying what he thinks without fear of a backlash it should be him.
If you had a billion quid, would you care what anyone thought about what you said? No

Super

As I said, it is consistently reported by those who have spent time with him that he is a smart guy. From caddies, fellow pros and coaches to reporters and other members of the media. What else can we go on? His grades were good in school and college, does that help?

Ok here goes...

In his golfing career Tiger had to analyse, interpret and make decisions based on many many different and complex streams of data. The fact that he dominated the game for so long would indicate that he was incredibly apt at this and therefore is quite intelligent.

Tiger majored in economics in Stanford, one of the most difficult subjects. I havent seen his grades, but he at least met the minimum standards and didnt flunk out.

Sure he has done a lot of stupid things, but it doesnt mean he isnt highly intelligent overall.

incontinentia wrote:Ok here goes...

In his golfing career Tiger had to analyse, interpret and make decisions based on many many different and complex streams of data. The fact that he dominated the game for so long would indicate that he was incredibly apt at this and therefore is quite intelligent.

Tiger majored in economics in Stanford, one of the most difficult subjects. I havent seen his grades, but he at least met the minimum standards and didnt flunk out.

Sure he has done a lot of stupid things, but it doesnt mean he isnt highly intelligent overall.

Ha ha ha, Tiger got into Stanford as a result of his exceptional golf, not his grades. Furthermore, never completed his studies.

How do you know if he has analysed any data? Has he used MATLAB and R? No, he's just done what any golfer does and look where his hits and misses are and of any data has been analysed, he's had it done on his behalf and spoon fed to him.

I've been looking over my Shotscope data from the last year in detail this week to try and make some gains. Does that make me highly intelligent? No, just means I'm making obvious conclusions from clear data.

I doubt you'd say Patrick Reed or Sergio Garcia were intelligent, but Woods hasn't shown anything which makes him any more intelligent than them.
Talent isn't intelligence.
Top sportsmen are often fairly stupid.

Mental strength surely plays a role in intelligence, Tiger would score maximum marks in that category.

I'm never wrong wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:Couple of thoughts:

1. If the players are completely independent contractors, free to play wherever they want, how is that they accrue a pension with the PGAT?

I'm not a financial person by any means, but whats to stop any person setting up their own pension plan? I thought I read somewhere that the money they get from the FedEx is a deferred pension - whatever that means.

Umm, it's not their own, personal pension, is it? It's essentially a company pension w/ the PGAT.

McLaren wrote:Navy

Not sure on the exact details of the pension, but the players may be independent in the sense they can sign up for whatever tour they want but if the want to play the PGAT they have to agree to the rules of the organisation. Eg not playing other tours in weeks the PGAT is being played.

As for Cam, I hope you are correct. My feeling however is that there are a lot of top 50 (or top 100) guys who are not looking for much justification to jump. Even a fleeting number 1 might be all they are looking for.

Sure, and as far as I know, they broke their contracted rules in order to go do what they did. I don't actually really care re. their contracts etc. A line has to be drawn somewhere, and as far as I'm concerned, they're on the wrong side of it re. Saudi. As far as I'm concerned, they can **** off and I hope they get chuff all OWGR points from here to Eternity. TBH, I don't give a **** about these self-centred a-holes. I enjoy playing golf; I think the average coverage on TV is like watching paint dry and I'm not a sucker for any sponsorship that says player X uses TaylorMade (other OEMs also available) as if that means me using it will improve my game .

McLaren wrote:I know super doesn't really follow pro golf but sometimes it is like he has been under a rock for 25 years.  One thing that has been consistently reported about Woods over the years is that he is a pretty intelligent guy.

I disagree. It hasn't been 'reported' at all that I recall. I accept he's not all that bad, but some sort of genius he ain't. Feel free to keep worshipping every fart he does though, by all means.

McLaren wrote:Super

As I said, it is consistently reported by those who have spent time with him that he is a smart guy. From caddies, fellow pros and coaches to reporters and other members of the media. What else can we go on? His grades were good in school and college, does that help?

Yeah, because they're independent, unbiased witnesses to his genius, right? Good grief. Scientific method? Give me a sec; need a moment to get my breath back after all that laughing.

Nice to see nothing's changed here...

incontinentia wrote:Ok here goes...

In his golfing career Tiger had to analyse, interpret and make decisions based on many many different and complex streams of data. The fact that he dominated the game for so long would indicate that he was incredibly apt at this and therefore is quite intelligent.

Tiger majored in economics in Stanford, one of the most difficult subjects. I havent seen his grades, but he at least met the minimum standards and didnt flunk out.

Sure he has done a lot of stupid things, but it doesnt mean he isnt highly intelligent overall.

Umm, no.
He majored at Stanford based on his aptitude in economics alone? Stanford didn't want Woods on their roster for his golf? Do me a favour.

Don't get me wrong, Woods was out of this world re. golf for quite a period, but that doesn't mean he consciously analysed complex problems at all. Idiot savants are absurd at specific skills, but doesn't mean they consciously analyse anything in a way one would call conscious intelligence.

It wasn't Woods alone, either. Williams was a ****, but to say he had no role in Woods's best years is probably not accurate.

incontinentia wrote:Mental strength surely plays a role in intelligence, Tiger would score maximum marks in that category.

Nope. You could be 'mentally strong', but barking up the wrong tree. Just because you were 'mentally strong', but basically pig ignorant, that would make one intelligent, would it? Top sports people need to be mentally strong, granted. That doesn't make them, a priori, intelligent by any rational measure though.

Hi navy, hope you're keeping well.

I suppose Tiger's high intelligence is just one of those things you know is true but cant definitively prove. Like athleticism, there are many types of intelligence. Tiger might have low emotional intelligence, but this would certainly benefit him as an elite competitive golfer. I believe he would score highly in any potential test of other indicators of intelligence such as curiosity or wit.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-11-11-sp-55602-story.html

Article from 1993 when it was announced he was going to Stanford. His GPA in high school was "better than 3.7".

Which I believe is the equivalent to mostly A's in the UK. He could probably have gone to a decent college and studied whatever he wanted even without being good at golf. And remember he managed those grades while spending most of his time travelling across the country playing golf events.

Super for example does not have those grades based on the fact he went to a non Russell group university.

McLaren wrote:https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-11-11-sp-55602-story.html

Article from 1993 when it was announced he was going to Stanford. His GPA in high school was "better than 3.7".

Which I believe is the equivalent to mostly A's in the UK. He could probably have gone to a decent college and studied whatever he wanted even without being good at golf. And remember he managed those grades while spending most of his time travelling across the country playing golf events.

Super for example does not have those grades based on the fact he went to a non Russell group university.

Some of the most academically gifted people have been simultaneously stupid when it comes to other things.
Intelligence is not just about academic achievement.
I still don't see Woods as demonstrating he's any more intelligent than any the likes of Garcia or Dustin Johnson.

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

Prince Harry, a well known thicko got into Sandringham, you don't think Woods might have had his grades gerrymandered?

super_realist wrote:

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

The internet equivalent of 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

The internet equivalent of 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

Going to a Russel Group University doesn't keep you warm at night necessarily.

super_realist wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

The internet equivalent of 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

Going to a Russel Group University doesn't keep you warm at night necessarily.

Alright, big guy.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

The internet equivalent of 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

Going to a Russel Group University doesn't keep you warm at night necessarily.

Alright, big guy.

I don't think you appreciate the running feud, playfull banter that Mac and I have.

super_realist wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

super_realist wrote:

I might not have gone to a Russel Group University, but I still earn considerably more than thee.

The internet equivalent of 'my dads bigger than your dad'.

Going to a Russel Group University doesn't keep you warm at night necessarily.

Alright, big guy.

I don't think you appreciate the running feud, playfull banter that Mac and I have.

Oh I do. Just had it marked more as sexual chemistry.

I'll be honest I just took a punt that Super wasn't Russell group educated. Something about his reasoning skills just made me think he wouldn't have gone to a top tier university.

McLaren wrote:I'll be honest I just took a punt that Super wasn't Russell group educated. Something about his reasoning skills just made me think he wouldn't have gone to a top tier university.

You're confusing lack of reasoning with different opinions Mac.

Super

Your take on Tiger Woods is so far wide of the mainstream medias that it counts as a fringe view.

McLaren wrote:Super

Your take on Tiger Woods is so far wide of the mainstream medias that it counts as a fringe view.

Is it? I don't see the mainstream media giving examples of his incredible intelligence.
That's just as stupid a claim as yours that Russel Group attendance results in better reasoning skills.

When have you ever been a fan of mainstream media anyway? That's a rather pathetic appeal to authority.

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Super

Your take on Tiger Woods is so far wide of the mainstream medias that it counts as a fringe view.

Is it? I don't see the mainstream media giving examples of his incredible intelligence.
That's just as stupid a claim as yours that Russel Group attendance results in better reasoning skills.

When have you ever been a fan of mainstream media anyway? That's a rather pathetic appeal to authority.

This little debate has taken an interesting turn, why don't we have a wee poll... On a scale of 1 to 10 how would you score the mainstream media in terms of how truthful it is? and perhaps more subtlely how much do you trust them to expose with any degree of accuracy and detail the pertinent narratives that need exposing?

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:

McLaren wrote:Super

Your take on Tiger Woods is so far wide of the mainstream medias that it counts as a fringe view.

Is it? I don't see the mainstream media giving examples of his incredible intelligence.
That's just as stupid a claim as yours that Russel Group attendance results in better reasoning skills.

When have you ever been a fan of mainstream media anyway? That's a rather pathetic appeal to authority.

This little debate has taken an interesting turn, why don't we have a wee poll... On a scale of 1 to 10 how would you score the mainstream media in terms of how truthful it is? and perhaps more subtlely how much do you trust them to expose with any degree of accuracy and detail the pertinent narratives that need exposing?

Probably about 5/10.
You only have to see how they might report on something you know more about than they do to realise how wrong they can be.
If they are that out on these subjects, how bad are they in others?
I used to trust the BBC when I was younger and more naive, wouldn't now bit think you really need to take what both sides of the political divide say. Far too often people will only listen to one side.

Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

LadyPutt wrote:Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

It's hardly gained much traction. Would you rather have no discussion? Honestly, if a few of us don't post for a week or so, the board is in hibernation.

LadyPutt wrote:Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

Good idea.

There continues to be regular developments in the realm of PGA Tour vs LIV golf. There are now plans for 12 "elevated" events on the PGA Tour, presumably with more prize money or no cuts. A new category of "top player" has also been created, so there is effectively a segregation of the top players and the average/journeymen players...is this a good idea? It might create bad feeling among the rank and file players and backfire on the PGA Tour. 
Tiger and Rory have also announced a new, tech-infused golf league(TGL) to begin in 2024 which will take place on virtual/simulator courses on Monday nights and is aimed to tap into technology to appeal to a younger generation of golfers.

LadyPutt wrote:Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

Hi Ladyputt, it’s not an entirely unconnected thread. How the mainstream media decides to view/report LIV is important. If it decides to largely ignore it then it will struggle to gain traction. I think golf’s troubles started to accelerate when live coverage largely disappeared from terrestrial TV. Big pots of money came from Sky and that was that. Now even more money has come from LIV and caused a different kind of problem ie a split at the top of the game. The real issue here is money. Money has created the issue but how the mainstream media reacts to it will drive the narrative going forward.

JAS wrote:

LadyPutt wrote:Can we stick to the subject (LIV Golf), please. This is getting a bit boring.

Hi Ladyputt, it’s not an entirely unconnected thread. How the mainstream media decides to view/report LIV is important. If it decides to largely ignore it then it will struggle to gain traction. I think golf’s troubles started to accelerate when live coverage largely disappeared from terrestrial TV. Big pots of money came from Sky and that was that. Now even more money has come from LIV and caused a different kind of problem ie a split at the top of the game. The real issue here is money. Money has created the issue but how the mainstream media reacts to it will drive the narrative going forward.

The increasingly terrible BBC seems to want to ignore it.

I hope Rory and Tiger aren't putting too much of their own money into this simulator golf thing. I can see it flopping pretty hard.