Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

I am not prone to defending the old firm but what do you mean by not close to CL standard? They are probably pretty similar to other pot 4 teams.

They clearly aren't capable of competing in it, furthermore if they were genuinely Champions League standard they wouldn't have to rely on Russian league expulsion to get in automatically and wouldn't have such a dismal qualifying record against Malmo, Copenhagen, Midtylland etc.

Teams that are CL standard actually appear in it, rather than once every five years. Evidently they are there to make up numbers.
Getting third position is the aspiration and that looks a step too far for Rangers at least and likely Celtic

Fancy editing this one before I go forth and rip the utter Poopie apart point by point?

Not at all. Celtic and Rangers are proving categorically why they are pot 4. They have been terrible.
Unless they do their part in improving the SPL and thus increasing revenue so they can compete at this level they are only ever going to be able to do ok in Europa and Conference, it's clear as day they aren't up to the CL under the status quo.
Not really sure how you can "rip that apart"
Celtic and Rangers are partially responsible for how bad the quality of the domestic League is, but do nothing to improve it. It's self fulfilling and any reasonable OF fan would admit they aren't good enough for the Champions League and unless things change domestically, they never will.
That's pretty reasonable isn't it?

Yes, it comes down to money, but if your teams can't be arsed to improve the product, then expect this every year until your coefficient denudes to the point where automatic qualification doesn't occur.

Rangers and Celtic aren't good enough. It's just a fact.

Ok points
1. Russian expulsion, they were already going to be ahead of Russia in the coefficient. Rangers pretty much over the past 4 seasons dragged the Scottish coefficient from 23rd to 8th FACT
2. Rangers have faced Danish opposition twice since their resurgence, comfortably beating Midtylland in the Europa league qualifying and taking 4/6 points off Brondby in the group stage last season. I can’t and won’t speak about how the other half of the OF have performed.
3. I know this will be painful for you to grasp but the Scottish league is the 8th best league in Europe and in terms of finance is there punching above it’s weight.
4. Rangers were ranked 33rd at the end of last season, at the point of the CL group stage draw they were ranked 29th, had that ranking been used in the CL draw they would have been in POT 3, but for a Ramsay penalty they would have been in pot 1

Saying they can’t compete is utter Love sacks, there is a mile of difference between saying they’ve performed poorly compared to last season and saying they can’t compete. If they ship the same amount of goals in the next 3 games and 0 points then you’d be moving toward a semblance of a point but we’re not there yet are we.

5. Civic.

[super_realist]

Super

Maybe from an accounting view point your standard of living won't increase but from a cultural one it will.

Will certainly be good to get away from the UK. Of course every country is challenged right now, but too good an opportunity to turn down.

[McLaren]

Emma Raducanu: Coach Dmitry Tursunov parts ways with British tennis player - https://www.bbc.com/sport/tennis/63221779

She is clearly impossible to work with.

[JAS]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

I was asking what Super (who I'm guessing is most definitely not Socialist) would do.

I quite enjoy the debating opportunity about how a high Tax state can also be really prosperous and give it's people a great quality of life and high standard of living. I can just imagine Truss and Kwarteng trying to airbrush Norway from the map before starting their dogmatic debate on tax and spend that says we can only prosper by lowering taxes.

Paying £3 for a cucumber, £13 for a beer and £2.50 for a litre of diesel would cause riots JAS in the UK. We just don't have the mentality to make a change like that in this country.

I might be earning more than double my current salary JAS when I move, but my real term income or standard of living won't increase by the same amount, imagine it was the same when you were in Malmö

Who’s “We” exactly?? I’d guess the biggest barrier to making such an adjustments is employers not increasing wages commensurately.

I do remember the £9+ conversion when processing the price of beer through the exchange rate calculator but hotel wise it wasn’t bad, food was variable fast food not really that different from Mway service stations here. As I recall train  travel was relatively cheap (Copenhagen airport to Helsingborg return was MUCH cheaper per mile than Chippenham to Paddington for example.

[JAS]

Looks like a guaranteed 4th for Celtic and no more Europe this year, same for Rangers tonight?

It’s a wait and see here’s a possibility table for the rest of Rangers group stage campaign and my view of each

9 points - Surely beyond even the most deluded Bears expectations even with Dortmund away type performances
6-7 points -I.e. 2 home wins and maybe a cheeky point against Napoli reserves after they tie up the group - Still in the realms of delusion methinks
3-5 points - a home win and possibly a draw, maybe even 2. At the moment my money would be on this outcome. I Do think beating Ajax at Ibrox is possible if they can rediscover last seasons home form. If they get seriously pumped tonight though, confidence drains away and we could be in “Nil pwah” territory
1-3 points - pride kicks in and or other clubs take foot off gas once group positions become clear
0 points - The Super view, possible but realistically I think they’ll avoid the whitewash

[super_realist]

Cheers Jas, most people have been telling me to go for it.
Its in Norway and so will be subject to Norwegian tax, but they're also paying a staggering commuting allowance meaning I get accomodation paid and flights back every few weeks so seems like a no brainer.

So in that scenario would you/or even could you base yourself in Norway for Tax purposes, In other words set up a Norwegian Limited Company rather than a UK one?...and then domicile yourself in Norway for personal taxation as well?

Not a very Labour/socialist position for you to take, JAS? Legal, maybe. Dubious, definitely. One of the reasons this dump of a country is where it is.

I was asking what Super (who I'm guessing is most definitely not Socialist) would do.

I quite enjoy the debating opportunity about how a high Tax state can also be really prosperous and give it's people a great quality of life and high standard of living. I can just imagine Truss and Kwarteng trying to airbrush Norway from the map before starting their dogmatic debate on tax and spend that says we can only prosper by lowering taxes.

Paying £3 for a cucumber, £13 for a beer and £2.50 for a litre of diesel would cause riots JAS in the UK. We just don't have the mentality to make a change like that in this country.

I might be earning more than double my current salary JAS when I move, but my real term income or standard of living won't increase by the same amount, imagine it was the same when you were in Malmö

Who’s “We” exactly?? I’d guess the biggest barrier to making such an adjustments is employers not increasing wages commensurately.

I do remember the £9+ conversion when processing the price of beer through the exchange rate calculator but hotel wise it wasn’t bad, food was variable fast food not really that different from Mway service stations here. As I recall train  travel was relatively cheap (Copenhagen airport to Helsingborg return was MUCH cheaper per mile than Chippenham to Paddington for example.

We being the mass of the British public.

Certain things work out well. The excellent Norwegian train system is very cheap. A months local travel on train and bus for just 600nok

[super_realist]

Well Jas, I think the 1-7 shows us where Rangers finish.
It's funny that Klopp last week said the gap wasn't big between Rangers and Liverpool. Looks like a chasm now.

[McLaren]

Super

I know you don't get any action in the bedroom but I imagine that result felt just as good?

[JAS]

Well Jas, I think the 1-7 shows us where Rangers finish.
It's funny that Klopp last week said the gap wasn't big between Rangers and Liverpool. Looks like a chasm now.

Oooff!! The roof fell in, I’m not saying he should be sacked but Gio will do well to hold onto his job now. Even I have to say we’re looking at a total whitewash now. All the Kudos from last season and the respectability build up from the 2 seasons before that has been blown away in 4 games. I now shudder to think what will happen in Naples. Yet it all looked so promising at half time.

We could get Gerrard back soon (joke)  :-p Although personally if Gio does have to fall on his sword I’d rather go for Michael Beale before his stock rises any higher and we can’t afford him.

[super_realist]

I think expectations have to be tempered JAS. Realistically most people knew it would be a stretch to get third. I think sacking wouldn't be great as a team like Celtic or Rangers don't have much sway in football.
It's a stepping stone and feeder club set up here to the likes of Southampton.

[Duty281]

Well Jas, I think the 1-7 shows us where Rangers finish.
It's funny that Klopp last week said the gap wasn't big between Rangers and Liverpool. Looks like a chasm now.

Oooff!! The roof fell in, I’m not saying he should be sacked but Gio will do well to hold onto his job now. Even I have to say we’re looking at a total whitewash now. All the Kudos from last season and the respectability build up from the 2 seasons before that has been blown away in 4 games. I now shudder to think what will happen in Naples. Yet it all looked so promising at half time.

We could get Gerrard back soon (joke)  :-p Although personally if Gio does have to fall on his sword I’d rather go for Michael Beale before his stock rises any higher and we can’t afford him.

Why is he close to the sack?

Rangers aren't remotely close to the level of Napoli and Liverpool, and are a fair bit behind CL regulars Ajax as well. Four losses from four is surely no surprise?

[super_realist]

Well Jas, I think the 1-7 shows us where Rangers finish.
It's funny that Klopp last week said the gap wasn't big between Rangers and Liverpool. Looks like a chasm now.

Oooff!! The roof fell in, I’m not saying he should be sacked but Gio will do well to hold onto his job now. Even I have to say we’re looking at a total whitewash now. All the Kudos from last season and the respectability build up from the 2 seasons before that has been blown away in 4 games. I now shudder to think what will happen in Naples. Yet it all looked so promising at half time.

We could get Gerrard back soon (joke)  :-p Although personally if Gio does have to fall on his sword I’d rather go for Michael Beale before his stock rises any higher and we can’t afford him.

Why is he close to the sack?

Rangers aren't remotely close to the level of Napoli and Liverpool, and are a fair bit behind CL regulars Ajax as well. Four losses from four is surely no surprise?

Exactly. Sacking someone isn't the answer when you were always likely to be the group whipping boys anyway.
This was entirely expected that Celtic and Rangers would finish 4th, and it's all but guaranteed now.

Given that neither team has been there for at least 5 seasons, it was always a season used as a barometer of where they are and they have shown they are at the bottom of the pyramid.

How they react to that is a different story, but sacking a manager when they don't have the ability to attract top tier replacement is just papering over the cracks and denying the facts

[JAS]

Yep, I’m not saying he should be sacked but there WILL be a lot of deluded supporters who go to games week in week out who will demand something be done to assuage the embarrassment.

The same people calling him tactically inept now are the same ones who a few short months ago were praising how much more tactically astute he was than Gerrard.

We’ll see, make no mistake it WAS an embarrassment regardless of the gulf in class, experience and finance. A similar gulf exists between Copenhagen & Man City, Maccabi & Juve, they never capitulated at home in that fashion though did they? Given how much of a fortress ibrox was in that run to the final last year it makes it all the more galling. Were Aribo & Bassey really that crucial last year?

Also I’m not a fan of Goldson but first half Rangers defence largely held together, was it coincidental that the roof caved in after he limped off?

I get the whole “this season is a barometer” thing. What the barometer is telling them is “Smeg me it’s stormy here!!”

[super_realist]

I think the issue JAS is that your common or garden deluded Celtic and Rangers fan is still in denial and that they can't accept they aren't as good as they think they are or who their actual peer group is.

This should be a massive wake up call, but as usual I suspect they'll continue to think they're highly relevant clubs rather than the has-beens we know them to be.

[JAS]

I think the issue JAS is that your common or garden deluded Celtic and Rangers fan is still in denial and that they can't accept they aren't as good as they  think they are or who their actual peer group is.

This should be a massive wake up call, but as usual I suspect they'll continue to think they're highly relevant clubs rather than the has-beens we know them to be.

Also what will it say about the rest of Scottish football if they go out and spank their SPL opponents between now and their next (almost) inevitable thrashing in Naples? Having said that if they don’t pick their chins up for the domestic fixtures then he WILL be in trouble, especially if the next OF game goes Pete Tong.

[super_realist]

I think the best thing that Scottish football could do would be summer football.
It's true that Scotland has a high population/attendance ratio in the current set up, but it is retarded to try and compete in a media/TV timescale with England, Spain, Italy, Germany etc.
Even Sweden makes more from their tv deal.

I'm not saying that they'd suddenly be able to challenge financially, but if for example Rangers/Celtic derby was on in July when nothing else was on, they might generate a better tv audience, and if the league starts in March etc, they might be in better condition and have a better first touch than entering qualifying after one domestic league or league cup game.

[Soul Requiem]

I think the best thing that Scottish football could do would be summer football.
It's true that Scotland has a high population/attendance ratio in the current set up, but it is retarded to try and compete in a media/TV timescale with England, Spain, Italy, Germany etc.
Even Sweden makes more from their tv deal.

I'm not saying that they'd suddenly be able to challenge financially, but if for example Rangers/Celtic derby was on in July when nothing else was on, they might generate a better tv audience, and if the league starts in March etc, they might be in better condition and have a better first touch than entering qualifying after one domestic league or league cup game.

In July when every other year either the world cup or European championship is taking place; two competitions that Scotland try and qualify for. Top idea.

[super_realist]

Come on. Scotland have been in one tournament in 24 years and most Scottish team  players play outside Scotland anyway.

You didn't really think that one out did you, besides teams with summer football play in them no trouble.

[Soul Requiem]

Come on. Scotland have been in one tournament in 24 years and most Scottish team  players play outside Scotland anyway.

You didn't really think that one out did you, besides teams with summer football play in them no trouble.

That first line is predictably pathetic, 11 members of the 2020 squad played in Scotland, quite a high proportion for an international team.

Your post was with regards to moving the Scottish season so as not to clash with the premier league etc. but chose a time when it would then clash with major international tournaments instead.

[super_realist]

Why? Scotland have a dreadful qualification record and Sweden, who also play summer football manage ok, so what's your point?

The status quo isn't helping, so why not change it?

[Soul Requiem]

Why? Scotland have a dreadful qualification record and Sweden, who also play summer football manage ok, so what's your point?

Scotland's qualification record doesn't matter, they try to qualify for a tournament every other year that they would then be in direct competition with. The Swedish league has a six week summer break.

[super_realist]

Qualification doesn't take place in summer.
Do what Sweden does then. The English league is taking a break for qatar

[JAS]

Been over this so many times before, there are pros and cons for moving but weighing them up I don’t see it as much more than neutral. We can try all we like to find other excuses but the 1 overriding item that such a debate will always come back to is MONEY pure and simple. Whether it’s the SPLs negotiators or whether it’s the product, the net effect is TV revenue which is the major component of club financing these days is paltry in Scotland compared other leagues it’s as simple as that.
In the days of capacity crowds in cavernous stadia financing the game Rangers and Celtic did have a case for being at the top table, that however sadly is not todays reality. Both the old firm do a half decent job of monetising branded merchandise at home and in pockets abroad but without the global exposure that the Premiership clubs have that is also a rather stunted income stream in term of competing with the big boys.

[super_realist]

It's paltry for a reason. It gets the money it deserves.

[Soul Requiem]

Qualification doesn't take place in summer.
Do what Sweden does then. The English league is taking a break for qatar

Your fixated on things that don't matter, Scotland try to qualify for an international tournament every other year, they are not going to move their season when the aim is to be playing during the Summer. It's like trying to talk to a child sometimes.

The Premier League doesn't really have to worry about competition from any other league or sport, it is a juggernaut. Let's move the season and continue to not play when we already don't play.

[super_realist]

You keep missing that countries do play in summer to qualify for the same tournaments and DO qualify and have done better than Scotland ever have.

You think the status quo is going to result in a better international team or domestic team in Champions League.scotøand internationally and domestically could hardly be any worse than currently.

[Soul Requiem]

You keep missing that countries do play in summer to qualify for the same tournaments and DO qualify and have done better than Scotland ever have.

You think the status quo is going to result in a better international team or domestic team in Champions League.scotøand internationally and domestically could hardly be any worse than currently.

European qualification for major tournaments does not take place in summer. It doesn't matter if Scotland qualify or not, the aim is to.

It could be far far worse; Rangers were european finalists, Scotland reached a first international tournament for 22/23 years and reached the playoffs for the world cup only this year.

[super_realist]

Sweden routinely qualify for tournaments. They play summer football.

[McLaren]

Super

Celtics Xg for the group stages so for is 6, they have scored 1 from open play. If they could afford a decent striker their story could be a whole lot different. Celtics midfield appear to be half decent.

[super_realist]

Super

Celtics Xg for the group stages so for is 6, they have scored 1 from open play. If they could afford a decent striker their story could be a whole lot different. Celtics midfield appear to be half decent.

What matters is points on the board Mac, and Celtic and Rangers have ONE point from a possible 24 and a truly lamentable goal difference.

I haven't dredged the annals of Champions League history but these two must be about the worst in the history of the group stage. Even Copenhagen aren't doing that badly.

[JAS]

Super

Celtics Xg for the group stages so for is 6, they have scored 1 from open play. If they could afford a decent striker their story could be a whole lot different. Celtics midfield appear to be half decent.

What matters is points on the board Mac, and Celtic and Rangers have ONE point from a possible 24 and a truly lamentable goal difference.

I haven't dredged the annals of Champions League history but these two must be about the worst in the history of the group stage. Even Copenhagen aren't doing that badly.

Well that’s clearly exaggerated pish, maybe you should do a bit of research before you spout. When did Copenhagen or other so called pot 4 whipping boys get out the group stage? Rangers best performance (apart from the inaugural 92/93 season when the format was quite different) was last 16 losing out to Villareal on away goals rule. They’ve had seasons of 7, 8 & 9 points, nowhere remotely near your assertion, it’s quite amusing just how much bitterness affects your objective judgement.

[super_realist]

Jas, I'm talking about this year's performance clearly illustrated by me pointing out this year's tally, and even Copenhagen are doing better than Celtic and Rangers on that score.

They need to wake up and realise that they are nowhere near this level. Both are almost guaranteed to finish fourth after just four games. Terrible stuff, but something I thought very likely, but apparently I know nothing about football. Well I was right about this

[JAS]

Jas, I'm talking about this year's performance clearly illustrated by me pointing out this year's tally, and even Copenhagen are doing better than Celtic and Rangers on that score.

They need to wake up and realise that they are nowhere near this level. Both are almost guaranteed to finish fourth after just four games. Terrible stuff, but something I thought very likely, but apparently I know nothing about football. Well I was right about this

Really...

but these two must be about the worst in the history of the group stage.

Make up your mind would you it's difficult to have a rational conversation if you keep moving the goalposts :-p

[JAS]

Thing is Super whilst there might be some seeds of truth that feed into a longer term narrative it's quite unscientific to take a partial season snapshot and hold that up as evidence that your theory is absolutely irrefutable. Too many factors can be at play including luck of the draw, current form, injury lists etc. So Rangers effectively had a 1-9 aggregate against Liverpool, much more highly rated Ajax had a 3-10 aggregate against Napoli including a 1-6 hosing at home. That doesn't necessarily mean Dutch football and Ajax are heading for the skids does it? You keep talking the Scottish game down so much that you've lost sight of objectivity. You're more obsessed with looking for isolated events to bolster/reinforce your view.
To be honest there is some merit in being concerned about the direction of Scottish football but the general trend over the last 4-5 years has been an upward one and it has brought them to a crossroads. I'm concerned they'll take the wrong turning as the SPFL and the SFA are complete and utter amateurs when it comes to running the game and marketing the game. A country CANNOT progress long term on the European stage unless sufficient finances are coming in.

Answer me these simple questions...
In terms of performance in European Club Competition where are the Scottish league ranked?
In terms of TV deals/revenues across Europe where is the Scottish league ranked?

The answer to the 2nd question will illustrate quite clearly why the OF struggle when they step into the big boys league. The answer to the first one will tell you that we are currently punching well above our weight. Ergo I would suggest the SPFL marketing people are either useless, asleep at the wheel or as anti Old Firm bitter and twisted as you when it comes to negotiating TV deals.

[super_realist]

Jas, You can't polish a turd. It's not as if the SPL was run by a top agency that it would suddenly bring in tons of money.
It gets what it is worth, and it's lucky to get that.

Companies don't invest in the SPL because the SFA or whoever do a bad job selling it. The companies don't need the SFA to understand whether it's commercially viable. Clearly they don't see much merit in it.

Currently, in this very small window the Scotch league is ranked 8th, but a report today on BBC says it's close to being overtaken by Austria and Belgium due to Scotch teams shiversome results this year, so all that work that Rangers were mostly responsible for can be wiped out exceptionally quickly

Would you agree there are too many leagues and teams in Scotland? 2 leagues of 14 would be fine.

[JAS]

Jas, You can't polish a turd. It's not as if the SPL was run by a top agency that it would suddenly bring in tons of money.
It gets what it is worth, and it's lucky to get that.

Companies don't invest in the SPL because the SFA or whoever do a bad job selling it. The companies don't need the SFA to understand whether it's commercially viable. Clearly they don't see much merit in it.

Currently, in this very small window the Scotch league is ranked 8th, but a report today on BBC says it's close to being overtaken by Austria and Belgium due to Scotch teams shiversome results this year, so all that work that Rangers were mostly responsible for can be wiped out exceptionally quickly

Would you agree there are too many leagues and teams in Scotland? 2 leagues of 14 would be fine.

I rest my case, thanks for illustrating it so eloquently, are you on the SPFL tv rights negotiating committee?

[super_realist]

Of course I'm not, but neither are you. Huge investment has been tried before and it was a commercial flop that nearly bankrupted a few clubs.

Under what circumstances do you think any company would pay massive amounts of product for the world's least competitive league in its current state or more to the point why you think the SPL would deserve it?

If it's not worth putting the money in, why would you?

[JAS]

Of course I'm not, but neither are you. Huge investment has been tried before and it was a commercial flop that nearly bankrupted a few clubs.

Under what circumstances do you think any company would pay massive amounts of product for the world's least competitive league in its current state or more to the point why you think the SPL would deserve it?

If it's not worth putting the money in, why would you?

Do you mean the Setanta deal (which if I remember was a bit of an upstart that hadn't quite established itself enough and became a victim of the global financial crash)

to take a snapshot
EPL deal = £1.69bn
Turkish deal = £224m
Belgium deal = £93m
Dutch = £71
Norway deal = £61m
Denmark deal = £46m
SPL Deal = £29.7m

The Denmark deal is especially comparable as they have a similar population. But just look at that list and outside the EPL pick a derby in ANY of those countries that would attract viewing figures higher than an OF match (yes those with taste would maybe prefer Ajax - PSV or Feyenoord) but Norway FFS, twice as much going into the Norwegian league than the SPL. I mean I just cant wait for the next Bodo Glimt v Viking Stavanger match can you?. Or Copenhagen v Brondby in Denmark. Realistically based on everybody else and relative to performance, the SPL should be negotiating in the region of £60m not the paltry £30.
OR The Old Firm should take the Portuguese approach and say, "You know what, we're going to negotiate our own TV deals"

[Oakdene]

Didn't want to start a new thread but could anyone recommend a company that offers short breaks for a group of say 4-6 people on a golf trip to Portugal? Would be looking for a company that do flights, hotel, green fees etc.

[super_realist]

Of course I'm not, but neither are you. Huge investment has been tried before and it was a commercial flop that nearly bankrupted a few clubs.

Under what circumstances do you think any company would pay massive amounts of product for the world's least competitive league in its current state or more to the point why you think the SPL would deserve it?

If it's not worth putting the money in, why would you?

Do you mean the Setanta deal (which if I remember was a bit of an upstart that hadn't quite established itself enough and became a victim of the global financial crash)

to take a snapshot
EPL deal = £1.69bn
Turkish deal = £224m
Belgium deal = £93m
Dutch = £71
Norway deal = £61m
Denmark deal = £46m
SPL Deal = £29.7m

The Denmark deal is especially comparable as they have a similar population. But just look at that list and outside the EPL pick a derby in ANY of those countries that would attract viewing figures higher than an OF match (yes those with taste would maybe prefer Ajax - PSV or Feyenoord) but Norway FFS, twice as much going into the Norwegian league than the SPL. I mean I just cant wait for the next Bodo Glimt v Viking Stavanger match can you?. Or Copenhagen v Brondby in Denmark. Realistically based on everybody else and relative to performance, the SPL should be negotiating in the region of £60m not the paltry £30.
OR The Old Firm should take the Portuguese approach and say, "You know what, we're going to negotiate our own TV deals"

I would rather go to a lovely stadium like Stavanger than a dump like Ross County or Livingston.

The SPL isn't getting a bad deal because it's underselling itself, it gets a bad deal because it's a terrible league. Who wants to pay money for a league which in 172 years has only had a non Old Firm winner on 13 occasions?

People aren't going to put money in to a league where the ONLY commercial fixture is Rangers/Celtic X 4, at least one of which is going to likely to be a dead rubber.
Norway play in summer, just saying. Might be a reason why their deal is better.

[JAS]

…meanwhile there’s a job going down in London. Must have reasonable grasp of economics and be prepared to have a flip flopping clueless fool as boss. Job also subject to once in every 5 year appraisal system although recent encumbents have been unaware of this aspect.

[McLaren]

Of course I'm not, but neither are you. Huge investment has been tried before and it was a commercial flop that nearly bankrupted a few clubs.

Under what circumstances do you think any company would pay massive amounts of product for the world's least competitive league in its current state or more to the point why you think the SPL would deserve it?

If it's not worth putting the money in, why would you?

Do you mean the Setanta deal (which if I remember was a bit of an upstart that hadn't quite established itself enough and became a victim of the global financial crash)

to take a snapshot
EPL deal = £1.69bn
Turkish deal = £224m
Belgium deal = £93m
Dutch = £71
Norway deal = £61m
Denmark deal = £46m
SPL Deal = £29.7m

The Denmark deal is especially comparable as they have a similar population. But just look at that list and outside the EPL pick a derby in ANY of those countries that would attract viewing figures higher than an OF match (yes those with taste would maybe prefer Ajax - PSV or Feyenoord) but Norway FFS, twice as much going into the Norwegian league than the SPL. I mean I just cant wait for the next Bodo Glimt v Viking Stavanger match can you?. Or Copenhagen v Brondby in Denmark. Realistically based on everybody else and relative to performance, the SPL should be negotiating in the region of £60m not the paltry £30.
OR The Old Firm should take the Portuguese approach and say, "You know what, we're going to negotiate our own TV deals"

Jas not doubting your info but just interested to look into this further. Where did you get those tv deal numbers?

[JAS]

Initially one of the Scottish newspaper sites but corroborated on Wikipedia. There are different sources with different numbers.

[Duty281]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

[super_realist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

Agreed, how can anyone make it an attractive league? You can't unless you make radical changes which old farts such as those in charge will never do.

[JAS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The Old Firm aren't in the PL so it's an irrelevant point.

Are we really saying in terms of TV appeal it's worth only half as much as Norway? 2/3rds as much as Denmark? Without looking, how many Norwegian Teams could you name? Do you honestly think any Norwegian or Danish game could outstrip an Old firm game in terms of demand?

Yes outside the O/F the quality aint great and does need improving. How can comparable standards be improved and the game developed when the revenue streams are paltry compared to other comparable nations? It's like saying austerity works.

Have a look at the SFA website, the first thing that strikes you is the emphasis on the past and history. It just smacks of an insular navel gazing organisation that commercialism and modern ideas of developing the game has completely bypassed it. Rangers and Celtic have much more commercial nouse but they're handcuffed to a petty majority that would rather see them fail.

In a similar way Scottish Rugby also suffered a bit when the game went Pro and became much more commercialised, every other home nation were MUCH more prepared for it and prospered both at club and international level.

[JAS]

…meanwhile there’s a job going down in London. Must have reasonable grasp of economics and be prepared to have a flip flopping clueless fool as boss. Job also subject to once in every 5 year appraisal system although recent encumbents have been unaware of this aspect.

Too late, the perfect cockney rhyming slang for a Tory has got it. Buckle up for those U turns people.

[navyblueshorts]

…meanwhile there’s a job going down in London. Must have reasonable grasp of economics and be prepared to have a flip flopping clueless fool as boss. Job also subject to once in every 5 year appraisal system although recent encumbents have been unaware of this aspect.

Too late, the perfect cockney rhyming slang for a Tory has got it. Buckle up for those U turns people.

Yessss. The man who made such a success of the health brief, but then thought it was clever to smugly throw brickbats at various people during the Covid pandemic having made such a mess of the NHS? The man who's a vastly experienced macroeconomist? Good grief.

[super_realist]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The Old Firm aren't in the PL so it's an irrelevant point.

Are we really saying in terms of TV appeal it's worth only half as much as Norway? 2/3rds as much as Denmark? Without looking, how many Norwegian Teams could you name? Do you honestly think any Norwegian or Danish game could outstrip an Old firm game in terms of demand?

Yes outside the O/F the quality aint great and does need improving. How can comparable standards be improved and the game developed when the revenue streams are paltry compared to other comparable nations? It's like saying austerity works.

Have a look at the SFA website, the first thing that strikes you is the emphasis on the past and history. It just smacks of an insular navel gazing organisation that commercialism and modern ideas of developing the game has completely bypassed it. Rangers and Celtic have much more commercial nouse but they're handcuffed to a petty majority that would rather see them fail.  

In a similar way Scottish Rugby also suffered a bit when the game went Pro and became much more commercialised, every other home nation were MUCH more prepared for it and prospered both at club and international level.

Yes, we ARE saying that. You are forgetting about context. The Danish and Norwegian Leagues clearly mean less to you than the SPL does as you're a Rangers fan and have no interest in either Denmark or Norway, but that doesn't mean they mean less to Danes and Norwegians, and hence the TV companies see a greater financial benefit in giving a better deal.
It's not a case of comparing the standard (or perceived standard from your viewpoint), the thing that matters is the commercial impact of the deal for those who invest in it. Clearly investors in Scotland don't believe there is either sufficient ROI for their money or that not enough people want to watch the SPL on TV (perhaps given that Scots have a high attendance to population ratio and that there simply isn't an audience on TV in any worthwhile amount, or perhaps the type of people who watch TV on the box in Scotland have less disposable income to be swayed by advertising)

It's also not a case of whether people, or more obviously you think a Danish or Norwegian game outstrips anything. Clearly they see more value in that investment than they do in the SPL. You do realise that the rest of the world really doesn't care about the OF derby, just as you don't care about the Istanbul, Oslo, Rome, Madrid, numerous London derbies etc. Do you really think that a TV company is being shielded of the commercial possibilities of the SPL by the governing bodies?
Do OF fans actually think other fans in other places give them a second thought?


On a bit of a sidenote, I'll say one thing about coverage in Scotland that I think is a serious demerit. The stadiums are so old, crap, small and outdated in design that apart from Ibrox and Parkhead the camera angles make the match look like it's being played at Hackney Marshes, I really don't think this helps sell it as a product. The production values as a result are Poundland stuff and the coverage and highlights is toe curlingly bad with the diversity plants in the pundits and the barely intelligible accents that I'm amazed it exists at all.

[Duty281]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_domestic_football_league_broadcast_deals_by_country

There's a good list here on Wikipedia. Apparently Scotland comes below the UAE, second tier Italian football, the Greek league, the Argentine one, the English football league...well quite a lot of leagues to be honest.

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The Old Firm aren't in the PL so it's an irrelevant point.

Are we really saying in terms of TV appeal it's worth only half as much as Norway? 2/3rds as much as Denmark? Without looking, how many Norwegian Teams could you name? Do you honestly think any Norwegian or Danish game could outstrip an Old firm game in terms of demand?

Yes outside the O/F the quality aint great and does need improving. How can comparable standards be improved and the game developed when the revenue streams are paltry compared to other comparable nations? It's like saying austerity works.

Have a look at the SFA website, the first thing that strikes you is the emphasis on the past and history. It just smacks of an insular navel gazing organisation that commercialism and modern ideas of developing the game has completely bypassed it. Rangers and Celtic have much more commercial nouse but they're handcuffed to a petty majority that would rather see them fail.  

In a similar way Scottish Rugby also suffered a bit when the game went Pro and became much more commercialised, every other home nation were MUCH more prepared for it and prospered both at club and international level.

No the point was that because they're mid-table PL quality there's not a lot of interest in them outside Scotland. If the Old Firm were equal to the quality of, say, Arsenal or Tottenham, then there would be more global interest in the SPL.

I also think you overstate the magnitude of the Old Firm derby. I believe you've said before that you think it's a bigger game than any in the EPL, which is very wide of the mark. There's little interest in the Old Firm derby outside of Scotland, and this is partially due to quality but also due to oversaturation (at least four meetings a season!).

It must be only worth half as much as Norway's TV deal, because that's what the broadcasters are willing to pay.

For Scottish football to improve they need Celtic and Rangers, predominantly, but also the Scottish FA, to invest in youth academies, improve coaching standards and infrastructure. Then Scotland might begin churning out higher quality players with better technical ability. It seems though that Celtic and Rangers are happy to be big fishes in a miniscule pond, where they can slap the likes of Ross County and St Mirren and have the occasional jaunt into Europe, but nothing beyond that.

[pedro]

It's because the quality outside of the Old Firm is shocking, so very few want to watch. And the Old Firm are only mid-table PL clubs at best. And as well as an absence of quality, it's not a very exciting league in terms of competition.

The quality of the Spanish league may be higher, but in the past 40-50 years there has only been a handful of years with a champion other than FCB or RM. Plus there’s max 3 or 4 other teams worth watching. This year Sevilla and Atletico sucks in the CL and FCB is on its way out as well. Just a thought about one of Europes top leagues.

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