England's Winter of Cricket 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Of course we have the World T20 covered in a separate thread, but I thought we should have a new one for England's upcoming games this winter, which feature:

Three ODIs in Australia (17th-22nd November)
Three tests in Pakistan (1st-21st December)
Three ODIs in South Africa (27th January-1st February)
Two tests in New Zealand (16th-28th February)
Three ODIs in Bangladesh (March)

Looking forward to the tests, but I think the ODIs will be instantly forgettable!

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Harry Brook has that “it” factor doesn’t he?

Well he is certainly fearless , and can really hit a ball. Probably need to see him play with a few different surfaces and opponents to really assess how good he is ; but the signs are pretty good !

He's exactly the fellow you want coming in at this stage of this third innings as he's not going to miss a chance to keep the scoreboard buzzing...

Root gone ! That's a surprise as he'd been looking very comfortable ...I had a century pencilled in

192/4 and I suspect Ben Stokes will be keen to keep things moving...

Lead of 270 : wonder what sort of time/runs target they are after ?

Oh rats ...Stokes overdid that and a bit of a waste of a wicket. Shows you actually can overdo this aggression...

Wonder if Livingstone can bat ?

alfie wrote:Root gone ! That's a surprise as he'd been looking very comfortable ...I had a century pencilled in

192/4 and I suspect Ben Stokes will be keen to keep things moving...

Lead of 270 : wonder what sort of time/runs target they are after ?

Stokes keen but perhaps too much so and gone.

Lead is 270 with 5 wickets left. That's not a great place to be in by the standards of this match. Anyway, we'll see. Now for Jacks to do what he does best ....

At this point in the game there are
75 to 80 overs tomm
And about 25 to 30 overs left today...with bad light considerations

Lets say 105 overs left and Eng are 275 ahead.
Eng have played good cricket and deserve to win.....Pak will have to bat our of their skins to earn a draw.

If Eng try to completely close out a Pak win.......chances of draw will be enhanced.
I would say Eng should bat 15 more overs and leave between 350 to 375 in 90 overs for Pak.....4RPO

Seems they want to be bowling tonight . Question being , if the pitch doesn't give much extra help tomorrow , what are you hopeful of defending ? (With tired bowlers , especially the pensioner ) Pakistan were close to four per over first innings , so reasonable to suppose they could be around there again : take a risk to win , sure : but you'd want the odds in your favour - especially after commanding the game for four days.

The way Brook is going , the lead is heading north rather rapidly so the options are still quite open. And I see Livingstone is padded up ready to go which is a promising sign. Be lovely if he could bowl a few overs.

Largest fourth innings chase in Pakistan is 314. But perhaps pitches used to wear more in the past...

And I see now that KP_fan and I are in broad agreement

alfie wrote:Seems they want to be bowling tonight . ..

I would 100% expect that from Stokes and Mccullum....and am equally certain Root would have declared around lunch time tomm as captain

These two competing to see who can hit it the furthest...but Jacks has got too far under this one and he's gone... Lead now 326. And here is Liingstone.

Brook approaching another shot at the Jessop Record ?

I would want to set Pakistan in excess of 400 on this track but readily acknowledge I'm not of the Bazball generation.

With Jacks now gone, there's a real chance now we'll be bowled out before setting that target. Mind you, Brook still motoring in top gear. Have to see what a hobbling Livi can do with him - credit for coming out anyway.

Slightly surprised Livingstone is in if he is having trouble running. Robinson looked competent in the first innings on this pitch.

But perhaps they are not worrying much about running ? Certainly Brook seems to be dealing mainly in fours and sixes

guildfordbat wrote:I would want to set Pakistan in excess of 400 on this track but readily acknowledge I'm not of the Bazball generation.

With Jacks now gone, there's a real chance now we'll be bowled out before setting that target. Mind you, Brook still motoring in top gear. Have to see what a hobbling Livi can do with him - credit for coming out anyway.

Only another sixty or so then

If these two stay in that means about seven more overs ! I also would prefer a few more than they have at present as batting still looks pretty easy. What we cannot know is what the Pakistani mind set will be if they face a daunting target and lose a wicket or two early on...

Don't think Livingstone will be taking the field judging by the way he's hobbling his singles.

And Jessop keeps his record as Brook is clean bowled for 87 !

Tea . Lead of 342. Only the bowlers left : so I guess they will be giving Pakistan an achievable target . Be a stiff one though , even if they'll have a fair bit of time.

alfie wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:I would want to set Pakistan in excess of 400 on this track but readily acknowledge I'm not of the Bazball generation.

With Jacks now gone, there's a real chance now we'll be bowled out before setting that target. Mind you, Brook still motoring in top gear. Have to see what a hobbling Livi can do with him - credit for coming out anyway.

Only another sixty or so then

If these two stay in that means about seven more overs !  I also would prefer a few more than they have at present as batting still looks pretty easy. What we cannot know is what the Pakistani mind set will be if they face a daunting target and lose a wicket or two early on...

Don't think Livingstone will be taking the field judging by the way he's hobbling his singles.

And Jessop keeps his record as Brook is clean bowled for 87 !

Some time in the near future, I must read up about that century of Jessop's. Utterly incredible for that time and generation.

I’m afraid Gilbert Jessop’s record doesn’t actually exist

218 runs in the session! Great work from England - they seem intent on forcing a result one way or another, and is actually making watching this match worthwhile.

Livingstone seems to be really struggling with that knee issue - doubt we’re gonna see him beyond this knock again this series, which is a shame.

Someone needs to tell stokes to bat like he does in t20s

Imagine what Viv Richards would have done and how it would have looked like.... when he smacked a 50 odd ball hundred against Eng in 1980s

and Azhar did a 70 odd ball 100 if I recall right against SA and that was a visual feast of most delightful wrist-work.
Gilbert Jessop (I have heard about) was a record holder in an era when speed of runs was measured in how many minutes the batsman played and not in terms of balls

Seems England have declared… 342 in 100ish overs is a result declaration!

JDizzle wrote:Seems England have declared… 342 in 100ish overs is a result declaration!

I love it. Live and die by the sword.

Join the revolution or push your face up against the window and grumble from the cold!

Very bold declaration. The feelgood factor will last around this kind of approach as long as the results are good. This is a big test of the philosophy, no way do Pakistan deserve a win here, and they should be mildly embarrassed if they achieve one

Huge huge moment.

This all took me by surprise ! Had assumed England were batting on for at least a little while , went away from the feed for while and came back to see they've not only declared (very early by most opinions !) but started to carve into Pakistan's main batting...

Thought Stokes might be going to bowl a bit in this innings after taking it easy first time around : he and Robinson have certainly made series inroads very quickly.

Game not over yet of course ; but with two out and one injured Pakistan are facing a bit of a task.

England weren't kidding when they insisted they "don't do draws" !

A daft declaration, but it might work out.

KP_fan wrote:Imagine what Viv Richards would have done and how it would have looked like.... when he smacked a 50 odd ball hundred against Eng in 1980s

and Azhar did a 70 odd ball 100 if I recall right against SA and that was a visual feast of most delightful wrist-work.
Gilbert Jessop (I have heard about) was a record holder in an era when speed of runs was measured in how many minutes the batsman played and not in terms of balls

It is an English record , of course (McCullum holds the all round one). The veracity of the Jessop one is I think based on a reconstruction of the innings from scorecards so yes , one might argue it can't be absolutely proved. In which case Jonny Bairstow should be the English record holder - at least until Brook gets another crack at Pakistan

Still Jessop is listed in the official stats at present . As is another "old" one : Gregory for Australia in 1921.

All good fun.

How many more overs tonight , I wonder ? We have had 303 overs so far in four days so not expecting much more than 80 overs tomorrow. RRR will be getting up towards four : certainly not impossible on this surface. But if one of these bats gets out the batting resources will be thinning out...
Azhar may be able to bat , but probably not at his usual level. And we know Salman and Rizwan can bat. Reckon there's a lot on these two though - especially Imam.

Odds on a draw have lengthened considerably !

I suppose a lot depends on if Azhar Ali can return, but for now Pakistan look the more likely, especially with these strange field placings.

Both the spinners on now and they're certainly encouraging the batsmen to play their shots...not many run saving field placings. One more wicket tonight seems to be the England prayer ; and they don't mind burning a few runs in the quest.

Will be interesting to see what tactics they employ tomorrow if a partnership or two develop. I am not sure Leach is going to get the conditions he wants.

England are actually going to lose a test where they scored 500 on the first day, barring a turnaround of some proportion. I believe the current record for a first innings score and going on to lose a test is 595, made by Bangladesh. This 657 would eclipse that.

Just a brainless and stupid declaration.

80/2 So 263 to get in a day. Delicate balance.

Couple of balls keeping low which might be more pronounced tomorrow . If Jennings had held that tough chance I'd have England well on top ; but these two have batted very positively and so have scored briskly and left themselves not really needing to hurry - which means they are right in this , despite being on the receiving end of rough treatment for most of the four days.

Was the declaration a little too generous ? Apart from the guildford doctrine which dictated England should not have allowed Pakistan the tea break to prepare for their innings , one might feel another twenty odd runs and a few minutes less this evening might have been advisable - but I guess it will be judged , one way or the other , in the light of the result !

Can't say Stokes & co don't do entertainment

alfie wrote:

Lowlandbrit wrote:How long before people claim this pitch was fine all along because 30+ wickets end up falling?

Haha... Don't think "fine" is going to be the takeaway , whatever happens from here.

29 wickets so far, all results possible on day 5: zero chance of any consequences for Pakistan, and there will absolutely be a non-ironic "wish we were playing on that pitch" article within five years somewhere.

alfie wrote:80/2 So 263 to get in a day. Delicate balance.

Couple of balls keeping low which might be more pronounced tomorrow .  If Jennings had held that tough chance I'd have England well on top ; but these two have batted very positively and so have scored briskly and left themselves not really needing to hurry - which means they are right in this , despite being on the receiving end of rough treatment for most of the four days.

Was the declaration a little too generous ? Apart from the guildford doctrine which dictated England should not have allowed Pakistan the tea break to prepare for their innings , one might feel another twenty odd runs and a few minutes less this evening might have been advisable - but I guess it will be judged , one way or the other , in the light of the result !

Can't say Stokes & co don't do entertainment

Personally would have gone back out for another 5 over dart post tea break, but can understand the declaration - and as you say Alfie, we've had a lot of entertainment and we're setup for a cracking final day tomorrow thanks to how England (mainly) have played in this game on a dead as a dodo wicket - entertainment is kind of the point of all this for us supporters isn't it?
I'd rather England lost having a go than "watch" a served up dull as dishwater draw (I put watch in quotation marks, because I don't think even the most ardent test fan watched much, if any, of the game between Pakistan/Aussies here last year on basically the same pitch)

Going to need Leach and Jacks to bowl better tomorrow than they did tonight, if England are to pull off a victory though!

I would have also had Eng go on for  8 overs more ( take 8 overs out for Pak) and give themselves another 40 to 50 odd runs...and leave it at 4RPO for Pak
I think they wanted to avoid the "two overs lost" for declaration by coinciding it with tea break...being mindful of the light impacted losses daily.
BUT
It is what it is...and it's interestingly poised for a neutral viewer

Pak will be in it by simply going at 3 RPO for most of the day....and that's not too difficult if the pitch hasn't deteriorated...and they do to go in a shell
I am not watching & hence lacking perspective on this factor.

Eng has given themselves a chance by taking 2 this afternoon out and those are 2 big ones...and Pak have a longish tail that will panic if they are required to close out the game.
So if the game gets to 50 needed with 6 wkts down in 15 odd overs tomm... and basically bowlers left facing new hard ball....Eng will be 90% probably to win it from there

Overall I think
Eng win ~60%
Draw ~30%
Pak win ~10%

I suppose quite a bit depends on Azhar Ali's finger, but I think Pakistan are favourites, followed by the draw, followed by England. It's going to be a tough ask to take 7/8 wickets in the 75-80 overs left.

The first hour will be the crucial one. England need to take at least a couple to put Pakistan on the back foot, take the Pakistan win out of the equation, and press for victory. But if Pakistan get through the first hour unscathed then it'll be a demoralised England on the back foot and (possibly) more conservative field placings.

As things stand the rate shouldn't be a problem for Pakistan because of the lightning quick outfield and plenty of fielders up. The long tail could be a key factor but they did chip in 44 runs in the first innings.

Duty281 wrote:I suppose quite a bit depends on Azhar Ali's finger, but I think Pakistan are favourites, followed by the draw, followed by England. It's going to be a tough ask to take 7/8 wickets in the 75-80 overs left.

The first hour will be the crucial one. England need to take at least a couple to put Pakistan on the back foot, take the Pakistan win out of the equation, and press for victory. But if Pakistan get through the first hour unscathed then it'll be a demoralised England on the back foot and (possibly) more conservative field placings.

As things stand the rate shouldn't be a problem for Pakistan because of the lightning quick outfield and plenty of fielders up. The long tail could be a key factor but they did chip in 44 runs in the first innings.

From the description of the injury I would think its a blood clot on the finger nail of Azhar squished between the ball and handle
Even if broken( would mean a hairline), with plaster, tape, padding, pain killers.....most international players would be able to bat-on....and play reasonable strokes. Only going down the track and hitting sixes would be hard.
So Ali's finger is not an issue.

I see the mental side as the block for Pak.....pressure/4th inning chase/ fear of losing wickets too early / trying to preserve wickets in the first hour, going in a shell, panicking / choking all of these apply much more to pak.
They aren't anywhere close to the chase mentality that Stokes / Mccullum side goes with.

Very interesting first over from Robinson today !

1. Beats outside edge
2. Controlled edge to third man for four.
3. Takes the Glove and falls just short of leg gully.
4. Beats outside edge again - stifled appeal.
5.6. Blocked.

Might be just a little on offer for the seam bowlers : the one that jumped was interesting. Jimmy starting at the other end. The spinners will have plenty to do but I reckon they'll need some help from the pace men.

Confirmed now that the unfortunate Livingstone's Test chances are over for now as he's off home tomorrow. No word yet as to a possible replacement.

He would have been a very useful addition to the attack on this , just for the variety.

Imam gone ! Glanced Anderson behind and well taken by a diving Pope

Just what the doctor ordered...

89/3 and Rizwan joins us so Azhar Ali is padded up as the next man in. England would like to get Rizwan quickly as he can score at a good rate.

First three overs today yielded nine runs ; next ten have seen just four singles including a leg bye. Rizwan still scoreless after 20 balls. Anderson comes off now after a string of maidens and we see Leach for the first change of the day at 93/3

And starts with a maiden. Time for a drink.

Pakistan playing for the draw now which is a shame given the opportunity that was presented them.

Quick change now as Jacks comes on and immediately Rizwan goes on the attack and belts him for two slog-swept boundaries ... Obviously spin was what he was waiting for. Both bats basically must have decided to just see Anderson and Robinson off : now we will have a different game altogether.

Will be a test for Jacks as he doesn't have the sort of run cushion that was there in the first innings. Fifth day so if Leach is going to do something now is the time. Reckon this period of play is probably the pivotal part of the day...

111/3 now.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Pakistan playing for the draw now which is a shame given the opportunity that was presented them.

I don't think they are just looking for the draw though. Sure they have been very careful ; but I think they fancy their chances of scoring briskly enough against the England spinners so weren't too worried about a slow first hour.

The way they've attacked Jacks in particular here suggests they are far from giving up on the chase just yet.

Ebb and flow we've seen today...early period all England with scoring strangled and an early wicket...but now Rizwan is taking Jacks to the cleaners and tilting the advantage back Pakistan's way . England need to get one of these two sharpish...

...and in fact Stokes has been forced to withdraw Jacks and hand the ball to Joe Root. Hasn't stopped Rizwan... Twenty five balls to get off the mark and now he's got 26 off 52.

132/3 . So another 211 needed ...

alfie wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:Pakistan playing for the draw now which is a shame given the opportunity that was presented them.

I don't think they are just looking for the draw though. Sure they have been very careful ; but I think they fancy their chances of scoring briskly enough against the England spinners so weren't too worried about a slow first hour.

The way they've attacked Jacks in particular here suggests they are far from giving up on the chase just yet.

Seems to me like they are just protecting their wickets, trying not to lose but certainly not going for the win.

Fifty for Shakeel

Rizwan has led the way with his aggression but his partner is starting to tick over too now. And there's the fifty stand as well...

Not seeing balls misbehaving so England are basically probing away in search of an error . Keeping close catchers - though not as many as last night.

Bet Leach wishes this was Taunton

eirebilly_01 wrote:

alfie wrote:

eirebilly_01 wrote:Pakistan playing for the draw now which is a shame given the opportunity that was presented them.

I don't think they are just looking for the draw though. Sure they have been very careful ; but I think they fancy their chances of scoring briskly enough against the England spinners so weren't too worried about a slow first hour.

The way they've attacked Jacks in particular here suggests they are far from giving up on the chase just yet.

Seems to me like they are just protecting their wickets, trying not to lose but certainly not going for the win.

Only need another 204 and they are certainly scoring fast enough at the moment to get them comfortably in the remaining overs . Of course wickets can change things quickly ; but if wickets don't fall it's going to be very hard for England to haul the run rate in. Can't expect Anderson and Robinson to bowl all afternoon.

Reckon Leach is potentially the key here. But I've not yet seen the threat I've been hoping for from him.

Light will be a major factor, the remaining overs will not be bowled. Its still on for Pakistan but I do not think that they will seriously go for it.

eirebilly_01 wrote:Light will be a major factor, the remaining overs will not be bowled. Its still on for Pakistan but I do not think that they will seriously go for it.

164/3 as we approach lunch. They are taking better than four per over from all the spinners - with only the odd false stroke - so unless the seamers can engineer some wickets I'm not sure how England will be able to stop them.

As I say , wickets change everything : but right at the moment I'd say Pakistan are strong favourites to win this. Still have a couple of other competent bats in the shed so the need for a breakthrough is becoming very pressing...

And lunch... 169/3 so need 174 more. Scored 89 in 32 overs but only 13 of them were scored off the first 14 so you can see how it's changed once the pace men came off. Probably 45-50 more overs so if the spinners keep leaking runs Stokes has a big problem !

Pakistan cruising. Perfect approach - defend v the seamers, take on the spinners. Just one leg-side strangle and a couple of half-chances, at best, for England.

Still going to be at least 50 overs before the light goes so the required rate isn't an issue, still below 4.

Ok, so now i am getting nervous

Anderson and Stokes after the interval, and they are perhaps the best chance of making a breakthrough. Really have to find a way to get at least the dangerous Rizwan to get back into this contest. If he can be removed Pakistan may find it difficult to keep the runs flowing so easily.

Getting him might be easier said than done though

And even as I type Jimmy has him caught behind !!!